/lit/ - Literature

>>14331992
Two reasons i can see. Firstly leftists try to pull marxism out of the armchair both to the right and left, i.e. leninists and council communists, (or what have you- the left of the left is splintered as can be really), when it was always theory and nothing more. And secondly because marxist academics dont like the trend he predicted. I guess you could say they want to push marx's theories into more of a political domain than they have relevance in. Its a more economic theory imo, although it, unlike most economics, factors in politics and history (and the philosophy associated therein).

Also technology and metaphysics dont debate anon. Humans do.

As an interesting side question for the thread: what does lit think of the comparison that can be made between Elon's assertion that reality will become a game (in a literal sense a virtual reality game not a game in a metaphorical sense of whoever dies with the highest number wins) or human civilisation will collapse and Marx's assertion that there will be a revolutionary rearrangement of class relations or the destruction of the mutually competing forces- i think this was in the manifesto, no?

Personally, I can see a future where we have this global bifurcation in which the core countries live largely virtually and the peripheral countries maintain them- already the case really- what i think of as brave new world in the core and 1984 in the periphery. Maybe marx's metaphysics was actually never materialistic at all and communism will only ever happen in the cloud, so to speak. Many anons feel hopeful about actual material full communism? Is china the only hope? But will the cost be the death of pluralism (i admit that its largely a liberal pipe dream)? Is it worth it? Personally i wont be for communism if they take my sacred books from me. They probably wont have to though. Another option is people will come begging for a "red/green fascism" i guess. Your thoughts?

>>14331992
leftists cannot live without their fantasy of revolution, protesting in the streets over whatever cause they can create, fighting some cops and then going back to their comfy home

Okay, I just googled bourgeoisie and it just means "middle class." Why not just write "middle class"? You're writing in English, aren't you? People would call you out for writing "kawaii" instead of "cute" but because you're using a la-di-da FRENCH word, it's somehow socially acceptable? Fuck off with that shit.

>>14332641
What a fucking idiot

>>14332641
marxists need to draw upon a tapestry of re-purposed words and neologisms in order to make their gay ideology seem intellectual

>>14332653
>>14332606
Holy shit. How will Marx recover from this? Not only a pseud but a LARPer.

>>14331992
So why are we assuming marx at no point made the argument these modes of production could be continues while controlled by a different group of people?

>>14332606
>>14332641
>>14332646
>>14332653
You fucktards who the fuck builds an argument on one specific word.

>>14332641
That's not what it means.

So evil capitalism forces poor underachieving beta cucks to face the real conditions of life, and this is why it's a problem? I can really see why you fucking losers gravitate to this ideology.

>>14332922
>being a masked puppet with no real competence or principles in anything is 'facing the real conditions of life'

>>14332922
Evil capitalism is stealing the natural resources from my land and using them to get rich off of, while my local community becomes poorer and poorer as the bourgeoise and pedophilic elite continue to raise taxes and impose regulations upon us which further drives us into poverty while seeing our wages stagnate, purchasing power dwindle, and spirit virtually extinguished, all because “it’s just the luck of the draw”, not because we’re underachieving betas.
>in b4 you think I’m a Marxist
Nazbol gang rise up

>>14332965
>the strong dominating the weak is somehow not the real conditions of life
t. not him

>>14332967
Fuck why am I on a website where I find myself sliding with a nazbol.

>>14333060
You know why.

>>14332967
>>14333060
>>14333139
Downs level samefagging

>>14331992
>The bourgeoisie cannot exist without constantly revolutionising the instruments of production,
Sounds like the bourgeoisie is making it happen.

>>14331992
I think the contention here is that the bourgeoisie develop technology within a limited sphere---true progress in the wider, Marxist dialectical sense is unable to occur because of this superficial mirage of technological evolution making it impossible for the underclass to see through it to it's true predicament. In the original German for example the word revolution doesn't appear in this sentence:

> Constant revolutionizing of production, uninterrupted disturbance of all social conditions, everlasting uncertainty and agitation distinguish the bourgeois epoch from all earlier ones.

The term for upheaval/circulation is used where this translation has used revolution (incorrectly since Marx could've used the cognate 'revolutionieren' or some such, as he does elsewhere.) Probably the correct way to look at, at least according to Marx, is that the furniture in the room is constantly being re-arranged and so everyone is unsure of just what room or party they're in, while really nothing has changed, and all are still in the master's house behaving with the manners expected of them in that context.

>>14332965
>I'm a fucking loser, but it's the systems fault man.

>>14333279
>t. Obviously life's winner

>>14333139
I'm actually an Anarcho-syndicalist.

>>14333269
This goes against your original point?

>>14332578
Who am i kidding. You dont actually think do you lit...

>>14333022
amassing capital is for weaklings who cant create their own values

>>14333269
This is a reading Ive seen before. Its predicated on reading a certain degree of idealism into what marx is suggesting. If i understand what your suggesting, it something like the superstructure is obscuring the base thus depriving the proletariat the ability to discern the reality of their position. This is too generous to the proletariat. They don't have to know, they have to have "nothing left to lose but their chains". Its a material compulsion that forces the revolution, not intellectual conviction. To use your analogy , the furniture being moved around the room is more akin to something like capital flight and trans-national finance capital's liquidity. The proles dont need to see and know whose moving the furniture (see all the exposures of the tax havens and the bailouts etc) before the revolution happens, they need to be kicked out into the street and left to starve until they have no other option.(see soviets, see PRC).

The problem with people of the core is they don't realise they are the bourgeoisie. Capitalism isn't collapsing because its working. They have such a level of cognitice dissonance, in the general sense, that they dont understand that their lack of action is an indicator of the fact that they are complicit in capitalism.
For reference this>>14332578 is me. I'm pretty sure your criticism is essentially the frankfurt schools criticism.

>>14333391
I don't understand; what's my 'original point'?

>>14332967
>Other people are only successful because they're lucky. I just got dealt a short hand, it's not my fault. There's nothing I can do about it so I'll just whine and blame the proverbial powers that be on my lot in life.
Sloth-tier cope.

Capitalism is essential to the communist project
It drives the innovation in production that the new society will need, although they want to do away with the alienation and cultural disintegration parts

>>14333263
Stay mad
>>14333374
>He thinks that localities can’t be influential
Centralized power will always depend on centralized systems of command. The laws of relativity put hard limits on how fast and how far those systems can operate.

According to Land’s formulation, power will try to use its mastery of relativistic physics to mask this weakness, but it is extremely vulnerable to being overtaken by more decentralized, chaotic processes.

>>14333374
>Anarcho-syndicalist.
Shut the fuck up.

>>14332641
"Middle class" means something else than it used to in 1840 when the bourgeoisie was still in between the old aristocracy and the proletariat. Now the middle class is mostly the petty bourgeoisie rather than the bourgeoisie proper.

The word "bourgeoisie" comes through French from Proto-Germanic just like the words "class" and "society" come through French from Latin. You can't be using the last two when whining about the first one.

>>14334737
That's actually a great Bakunin quote, because it's exactly what happened

>>14332967
Translation: Some fat faggots, realizing your make-believe ideas of "country" and "fraternity" are subjective bullshit kept together by nothing more but an abstract social contract, decide to pay chinks pennies to mine gold in bumfuck arizona, and what you subjectively perceive as your local "community" doesn't surprisingly get to keep the fat fuck's profits. This angers the underachieving beta, and because of his lack of physical strength to simply disregard the law and take the property anyways, decides to cling to some bullshit fucking ideas of community and subsequently a globalized freedom of trade is painted as the scapegoat that's the source of all the world's problems.
Grow the fuck up. Break the law. Create a separatist city-state. Don't cry "CAPITALISM!" when someone does something you don't have the strength to stop, you mong.

>>14333397
Creating your own values instead of amassing physical dominance over objects and land is for weaklings who are scared or incapable of changing the world. That being said, i'm one of these weaklings, and i'm willing to bet 99% of humanity is too.

Damn the bougie must have been absolute chads then, now we just have new money fagolas

>>14331992
>with their train of ancient and venerable prejudices and opinions,
>All that is solid melts into air, all that is holy is profaned,
i imagine this guy accusing socrates of corrupting the youth. what a pseud.
marxist with ipad are really ridiculous and they dont even know it.

This retard says that Marx "endorses this progression" >>14331992 while that one
>>14335471 thinks he's opposed to it. Maybe the retards should have a little retard fight to see which one is the retard of retards. And then they can both learn to read.

>>14335119
thats pretty much the story of marx v bakunin

>>14335892
>it keeps happening
It didn't, all those states were copies of the Stalinized Soviet Union. It happened once.
And you can explain why it happened in the Soviet Union by just crying "muh state". This is a superficial "understanding" worthy of a 5th grader, or a, adult liberal.

The whole point is that the progression eventually heightens the contradictions inherent in capitalism and intensifies class tensions.

>>14335402
Look up Minnesota and the Iron Range. We live in one of the lowest income areas in the country, have one of the lowest median house prices, and some of the highest rates for alcoholism, addiction, etc. We supply the country’s iron which is used to make all of the steel used in the US electrical grid and almost 70% of high grade steel used in auto manufacturing. Our natural resources are stolen to the benefit of people who don’t even know we exist, and we are shat on in return. I am actively organizing my area to start lobbying the government to either support us more, or we will cut off this country’s supply of iron. With the trade war heating up with China, the government will be forced to concede. This is NazBol.

>>14336076
can't*
an adult*

hide all hungry santa threads

>>14332922
No, that is why it's good, according to Marx.

>>14336091
Then do whatever you want, like i care. I wish you good luck with defying those who hold material power over you though, genuienly, you'll need it. If this is nazbol then nazbol only is basic bitch separatism with fancy rhetoric and extra steps.

>>14332641
BASED FUCK FRENCHIES

read ellul

>>14336076
yea its a comic not a pamphlet my friend

>>14336301
a comic is anarchist's pamplet

>>14336178
You are rootless cosmopolitan scum

>>14332641
Bourgeoisie in Marxist terms refers to the class that owns the means of production (i.e. they live off rent, not waged labour). By contrast, the proletariat are those who need to sell their labour force and are thus forced by the economic infrastructure to waged labour.

This is unrelated to the proletarian’s salary: a rich sportsman, a teacher, an industrial worker share the same role in the production process. Communists put the emphasis on the industrial proletariat because they consider that their living conditions are so harsh that they are the most apt to actualise their revolutionary potential — through “class consciousness”. Without class consciousness, the proletarian fills the rank of the “petty bourgeoisie”, a class of small capitalists and high-earning proles (in the larger sense) who believe that their interest are those of the bourgeoisie.

TL;DR Bourgoisie=/=middle class. I could also go on about what the word originally means in French but you may find that easily on the internet.

>>14336624
I am not rootless, in fact i'm proud of my Polish and Silesian ancestry. That being said, your proposal that Nazbol is somehow the morally superior ideology to exploitative capitalism is only a mask, and it's masking the fact that Nazbol is just another ideology with the aim to look after your best interests, and the best interests of all those you deem to be worthy. Just like the fat capitalist, your ideology is only seeking what you believe to be betterment for yourself. And i'm not saying this out of spite or to belittle you or your ideals. I'm saying this so you can realize that ultimately, ideas are worthless. The only thing that matters is your ability to exert power over people in the present moment, and staying alive. And neither of us has that kind of power, so we must seek power in groups. And even then, it becomes an arms race of whomever gets to lie to the dumb fuckers the most and garners their sympathy.
And before you dismiss me as a relativist, which i kind of am, i want to remind you that an objective morality does not exist. Not that morality is relative, but that it is only an abstract idea biologically cooked up in the brain. It is also irrelevant to anything out in the physical world. You can call yourself Nazbol, of course, but you can only claim superiority over the capitalist in your achievments and the physical power you can command. Ultimately Nazbol as you describe it is only separatism which aims for the betterment of the people through... wait for it... separatism, and being left alone from those you dislike.

>>14336725
I don't know if nazbol is simply separatism. I mean, the goal isn't to create a new nation and separate from the original nation. It's just communist fascism. Fascism wasn't separatist, communism wasn't separatist either.
I've been reading a bit about Dugin and his 4PT. He might just be a crypto-fascist, but I think his focus on liberalism as the real common enemy of our century, and his historical take on absolute win of the first theory (liberalism) over the second and third are valuable. Gives a new light on the problems of current politics and how the demonization of everything that goes against libreralism (either left or right wing) is effectively brain washing the masses. Left and right doesnt really matter now, both of them are focused on liberal ideology ("politically correct").
He also goes on a bit about a somewhat esoteric formulation of morality, values, tradition and the human spirit as the political subject of the 4PT (as opposed to the individual, the classes and the nation to the 1st, 2nd and 3rd theories respectively).
His proposition of a multi-polar world of big blocks rather than a uni-polar globalized world is also valuable I think.
I'm not the anon you are replying to btw.

>>14336913
>I don't know if nazbol is simply separatism
That's fair, i just threw separatism out there because i got tired of constantly typing the "leave me the fuck alone, i don't give a shit attitude"
Also i might have to check out Dugin at some point, sounds farily interesting, especially because i'm in some ways very liberal myself. Thanks for the brief rundown on the guy though.

>>14332641
Trolling is a art.

>>14336725
>The only thing that matters is your ability to exert power over people in the present moment
You stupid Pollack, this is exactly why you employ ideology in accordance with the scenario at hand. NazBol will not defeat capitalism, but groups can leverage their local power in order to better bargain for their own standard of living. Centralized power will always depend on centralized systems of command. The laws of relativity put hard limits on how fast and how far those systems can operate. According to Land’s formulation, power will try to use its mastery of relativistic physics to mask this weakness, but it is extremely vulnerable to being overtaken by more decentralized, chaotic processes. This is why NazBol will be effective.
>And before you dismiss me as a relativist, which i kind of am, i want to remind you that an objective morality does not exist
I agree with this sentiment. I am a Nietzschean socialist, after all
> Ultimately Nazbol as you describe it is only separatism which aims for the betterment of the people through... wait for it... separatism
Stupid Pollack. NazBol is collectivist and used local relativity in order to safeguard against outside power. There is no inherent separatism, this is all aimed directly at local politics and not national, although our example will inspire other localities to do the same. We will effectively reinstate the republic through these measures.

>>14337454
>this is exactly why you employ ideology in accordance with the scenario at hand
Yes, that's what i said too. And don't think i won't let those weak little jabs at my national identity slide. For a supposedly rational nationalist you sure don't like respecting nationalism when it's against your personal interests, fellow individualist,
>groups can leverage their local power in order to better bargain for their own standard of living
Yes they can. And what? Is the application and propagation of this realization the only thing Nazbol seeks to accomplish? Just create a nation-wide strike and hope that there will be no scabs? Or that god forbid some of those striking regions suddenly decide they don't want to be decentralized and weak to outside influence and found a brand new nation.
>Centralized power will always depend on centralized systems of command
Oh right, now we get into the bland platitudes and nonsense. Apart from this statement not being strictly correct, i'll give you a pass here, you mongoloid.
>The laws of relativity put hard limits on how fast and how far those systems can operate
Not really. You can break down the chain of command into decentralized groups of detachments or things of that nature. When it comes to Land's little "formulation", it's nothing but vague promises. What kind of "power" has a "mastery of relativistic physics"? Was this faggot high or something? What does that even mean?

This is all mute, however, because what you describe is not any kind of National Bolshevism. It's not nationalist in the slightest, and because of the fascist elements, it's not any kind of Bolshevism. A dictatorship of the people is exactly what we have under capitalism. And look how that turned out.

>Nietzschean socialist
That's like calling yourself a Foucaultian Proto-Fascist.You're no socialist, you're just fucking stupid, that's what you are.
>NazBol is collectivist and used local relativity in order to safeguard against outside power
So when china comes over to the now nazbol america, you'll show them an equation explaining how information cannot travel faster than the speed of light and ask them kindly to vacate the premises?
>We will effectively reinstate the republic through these measures.
Yeah, like the now freed and masterless regions will accept some massive faggot on 4chan telling them they need to make a republic now. But this begs the question, do you admit that all this Nazbol larping is just a means to an end? That Nazbol isn't even a true ideology, but rather a retarded manual for how to destabilize a stable system?

>>14337454
>>14337852
From your description, it's almost as if what you describe as Nazbol is actually just some fucktarded kind of transitory anarchism.

>>14332641
lol. dumbass maybe learn the vocab from somewhere other than google. like the texts for example
>>14332881
this

>>14332653
This. Marxism is 90% memorizing jargon. 10% pretending it has meaning and telling anyone who points out that the emperor has no clothes to "read theory".

>>14337852
>This is all mute, however, because what you describe is not any kind of National Bolsheviam
This is where you’re hung up and why you’re such a dumbass. You take nationalism and feel the need to apply it literally, whereas I employ it in the local sense, in order to foster the nationalist feelings within the locality. Currently, you’re basing nationalism off of some arbitrarily drawn lines on the map, while I base it off of defining characteristics such as geographical location and relative culture. I’m not even going to bother addressing the rest of your shitty rebuttal simply because it’s just that bad. You’re too emotionally charged. Typical Pollack.