/lit/ - Literature

>>14304465
>uh durr hurr, if you reject the system, how will you continue to participate in it? ah hurr durr

>>14304469
You haven't answered the question. Where are your services (electricity, internet, food, medicine) going to come from when nobody is working because work bad?

>>14304477
civilization bad too

>>14304477
>work bad, money bad, corporations bad
>but i still want my iphone and starbucks!

>>14304485
>tweet sent from iphone
Top fucking kek

Produce a bunch of propaganda valorizing jobs that need to be done so people feel a sense of pride in their abject submission to state power

>>14304465
I just want to hunt with my people lads...

>>14304506
OP here, actually a big fan of Ted and I love his critiques of capitalism way more than any commie garbage. See Kaczynsky actually provides a feasible alternative where we all revert back to primitive life, might not be plausible but at least it's realistic. Unlike socialist utopian jerkoff fantasies.

>>14304465
why are you asking us, go read marx he has arguments for this
>Do you really expect a nation can survive the majority are NEET?
marx thought automation would be a big component in entering the upper phase of communism
>Do you think you can just tax those rich or print money or is it some other fantasy?
neither taxes nor money would be present in communism since both are predicated on the commodity-form
seriously, stop being lazy and asking 4channers and just read the books

>>14304516
primitivism has its origins in marxist thought stupid

Communism still requires labor. People overlook this, for whatever reason.

It, also, has the end goal of Anarchism, i.e. no more government -- thus, no government providing for its citizens because they've become self-sufficient.

>>14304521
Bro I read the book. All his arguments are idealistic and don't take into account human nature. We are selfish and act in our own self-interest, that's the reason society is the way it is. Objecting to this fact is simply ignoring everything around you.

>>14304465
People still work, it's just that the workers would have more power over the workplace. If workers choose to cut their hours and it wouldn't really do much to their profits than that is fine. If they don't care if their profits are cut a little but they stay up and running than that is fine too, GDP isn't all that matters in life. Ultimately a lot of the hours worked today are pretty wasteful as well. Also Marxism is all about working, so the impression you have of it being an ideology for NEETS shows you haven't read any of his work.

>>14304531
Well that is good then because Marxism would be in the interest of 90+% of the people ^_^

>>14304531
>Bro I read the book.
which book? the manifesto? it was a rushed pamphlet aimed at working class people and is only like 30 small pages, how could hope to get an overview of his thought from that
>All his arguments are idealistic
No, they are materialist, and he explicitly eschewed 'utopian socialism'.
>and don't take into account human nature.
Marx believes that what we call 'human nature' changes drastically based on the mode of production people live in, which has empirically shown to be true - ask any anthropologist or economic historian. Also, in the 1844 manuscripts, Marx believes there that human nature is to *enjoy* work when it isn't estranged by economic coercion.
>We are selfish and act in our own self-interest, that's the reason society is the way it is.
Yes, that is the way capitalism is. People would behave differently in communism; see above with regard to his claims on 'human nature' changing.
>Objecting to this fact is simply ignoring everything around you.
'everything around me' is capitalism, if you naively look at everything around you and come to the conclusion that it is eternal and natural (despite the current mode and relations of production being only about 300 years old) you are espousing what Marx called 'ideology'. He viewed that every mode of production created 'ideology' - justifications, dogmas, etc - which correspond to the economic base of society. so for example in feudalism everyone thought monarchy was eternal and natural based on doctrines such as the divine right of kings; this belief was a way to secure the feudal mode of production, as it relied on monarchial relations of production. thinking that humans are 'naturally' greedy and selfish, or any other argument of that kind, is the equivalent for capitalism

>>14304477
Technological superiority and increasing efficiency of production, like how China is using drone technology in their agricultural practices.

>>14304465
>those that criticise capitalism

Beats me, all countries purporting themselves Socialist/Communist were extremely obsessed with work. I believe the USSR had the highest ever recorded employment at one point. Marx himself promising little more than mandatory eternal work when not speaking in tongues.

>>14304587
It is not human nature to enjoy or not enjoy labour. That is up to personal attitude, cultural influences, learning, etc. Human nature enables and predisposes all such processes, but does not make for any specific outcome. Marx was wrong.

>>14304477
Monetary compensation isn't the only value that work can provide. What happened to being proud of your work? We've been raised in a capitalist society all your life, so of course it'll be that any more intrinsic, dare I say spiritual qualities of work are lost to you.

>>14304587
>Yes, that is the way capitalism is. People would behave differently in communism;
But they don't and haven't.
>see above with regard to his claims on 'human nature' changing.
That's why communism has worked in the past, right? You can't change human nature. Show where these claims you make have been proven empirically. Everything I've read points to the opposite (pick up any book on behavioural economics).

>'everything around me' is capitalism
>so for example in feudalism everyone thought monarchy was eternal and natural based on doctrines such as the divine right of kings
In those systems, selfishness was present too. Monarchs/Nobility took land; farmers and peasants worked on it. The same hierarchies manifested due to human nature. The only system that will ever even remotely work well is one that takes this fact into account.

I don't understand all this pointless theorising when we have centuries of data.

>>14304721
Once again, this is just pointing the finger at capitalism instead of accepting that people are ugly, lazy, and selfish in their desires. This Rousseauian view of humanity is too charitable. People are greedy and immoral, hence every civilisation suffers with the same underlying problems.

>>14304758
Are they really? Or is it just how capitalism taught them to behave?

>>14304587
Also this isn't really what I'm talking about. I'm specifically interested in discussing people who complain about "wage slavery" and blame it all on capitalism. They voluntarily want to be NEETs, they hate work, they think all jobs are shit and unfulfilling, and they look at communism as the solution to all this.

>>14304765
Well this question would be very easy to answer: just look at people in non-capitalist countries. I already have, and the answer is clear. Believe it or not, 500 million years of evolution aren't going to be undone by bringing up someone under a different political system.

>>14304465
>How exactly are you going to provide for everyone if nobody is actually doing any of the work?
Ideally, most of the population would be killed off, but people would definitely work. I’m more anti-bureaucracy but the two have become synonymous.
> Do you really expect a nation can survive the majority are NEET?
A delusion you have. Think platos republic with or without a king.
> Do you think you can just tax those rich or print money or is it some other fantasy?
Critique of socialism not communism.

>>14304783
>most of the population would be killed off
OK now this I can get down with

>>14304587
Based. I've been meaning to read Marx seriously for a while, but we're reading him in this survey of social philosophy course next semester.

>>14304587
Completely based and btfo this retard.

>>14304828
Read Kolakowski's first volume first

>>14304744
>Show where these claims you make have been proven empirically.
as i said, anthropology and economic history is where to look
> behavioural economics
susceptible to the same criticism as economics more generally, i. e. that it studies capitalist societies

>>14304516
Primitivism is impossible without killing off 99.9% of humanity and tearing down all the infrastructure.
And even then nobody's been raised for it so all that essential ancient knowledge is gone.
And even then nobody will want to do this in the first place except for a handful of crazy fuckers who won't reproduce.
TL;DR Teddy was a retard who should've thought about the basics of his ideology a bit more and then abandoned it because its stupid. He murdered people and is rotting in prison having accomplished nothing.

>>14304465
Why do you think that only capitalism has people doing work?

>>14304744
>But they don't and haven't.
they did, look up anthropology on hunter-gatherer bands. marx called them primitive communism

>>14304866
I'll keep him in mind, but I'm generally opposed to reading a secondary text before the primary.

>>14304779
there are no non-capitalist countries

>>14304528
How so? They dont seem related at all.

>>14304465
Communists don’t necessarily believe that nobody does any work. There’s that whole AI enabled communism fantasy, but that’s not really the premise of communism. It’s just a fantastical means by which people think they can achieve communism. What communism really wants is power to be shifted from the capitalist class to the labor class. The point is that laborers are alienated from the fruits of their labor and also do not have any real power in the current system which grants power to those who can accumulate capital, something which labor is not necessarily required to do or at least not proportionally. Labor is sort of a necessary precondition to having a labor class though. The idea is just that power is shifted to the laborer class. A world where nobody works because AI (which is really just another form of capital) accumulates capital for them is almost the exact opposite of a communist utopia. I don’t know where people get these ideas that everyone will have their own personal capital creating, labor liberating AI when the very people creating this AI as we speak are the same people they see hoarding capital and power.

>>14304926
john zerzan is basically the founding father of primitivism and he was influenced mainly by adorno. he sees hunter-gatherer bands ('primitive communism' as marx called them) as the only way to escape alienation

>>14304465
Possibly, most people won't work, and will get their needs covered, the rest will work on projects they fancy. It's not possible yet, but in 30 years, with mass automation, it will be.

The theoretical answer is widespread automation which leads to hyperproduction of all required goods

>>14304540
>If workers choose to cut their hours and it wouldn't really do much to their profits than that is fine.
Isn't the whole idea to get rid of profits entirely? Just seems like you're talking about democracy in the workplace under capitalism rather than communism.

>>14304779
Look at the indigenous tribes of equatorial countries and you won't see the greed and immorality of the average western country. They aren't foreign terms even among them, but they are rightfully shunned and kept under control.

>>14305324
yeah it's the shitty market socialist reading of marx

>>14304465
>How exactly are you going to provide for everyone if nobody is actually doing any of the work?
How the fuck did you get this retarded idea that no one works in a socialist system? Did you ever even just open a wikipedia page before posting your retarded thread?

>>14304465
>read 12 page pamphlet
>think you understand a whole entire ideology
Why are mutts like this.

how can a nation survive when banks can trade shares in rigged markets and make billions and not lift a finger. While no one invests in infrastructure because there is no profit to be made.

How can a nation survive with a below 2.1 birthrate when eevryone is working?

A lot of work under capitlaism is born out of bullshit. If the market was truly efficient trucks drivers would not exist but its the most popular job because roads exist when trains do it 10 times quicker and cheaper.

As an accountant the only thin keepin me in work is capitalism. My employer lobbys the government to keep taxes complicated. Its peek capitalism.

We have the technology to remove most jobs. Why isn't this a waste. A nation can survive when we aren't eage cucks fighting for scraps and we have children

>>14305501
It's not even *a* reading of Marx, more like a non-reading. The most charitable interpretation of what that anon wrote is still compatible socialism though, that is if we interpret "profit" as the quantity of product. But nobody who's read and understood Marx would use the term "profit" that way, because that's completely retarded. Profit is a part of surplus value, and socialism has no surplus value.

>>14305546
He's baiting, that's how.

>>14305303
>>14305117
>>14304953
>the robots will work for us
what a fucking cop out of an answer

>>14304477
>NOOOOOOOO WE HAVE TO HAVE ELECTRICYT!!!!!! WHO WILL MAKE NEW IPAD MODEL #19924?????

>>14305480
>>14304909
>Hunter gatherers
Now I know you're talking out of your ass. Hunter gatherers spend all day hunting and gathering. That's not a civilisation. As soon as we moved from this to farming, trade and hierarchies began. You're using some fucking band of blood-related primitive people in the rainforest and concluding that a nation a million times the size could function the same. How are you still arguing in favour of something that has failed over and over? It's all talk.

>>14304758
>this is your average randroid

>>14305653
>sees a self-driving automobile
>waahh why do we have to work, can't the robots do everything
Why are mutts like this.

>>14304516
Holy fucking kek
Thanks for this

>>14305707
Every society in the world: rape, murder, theft, inequality, deceit - that's why every nation spends a ridiculous amount of their resources on police, courts, defence, nukes etc. But not, "humans are a wonderful species, a totally gentle and noble kind". Fuck outta here with you bullshit.

>>14305695
>electricity bad
>posting on the internet
Your IQ is literally one digit.

>>14304587
>Marx believes that what we call 'human nature' changes drastically based on the mode of production people live in, which has empirically shown to be true - ask any anthropologist or economic historian
Such a frivolous reply. "Just ask any anthropologist guys, gee it's like science duhh."

>>14305724
>NOOOOOOOOOOO IF YOU'RE FORCED TO USE THINGS IT MEANS YOU LIKE THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!

>>14304516
>feasible alternative
>unlike socialist utopia
o I am laffin

>>14305753
They're both ridiculous. The only sensible, mature system is capitalism with some safety net so that people don't starve or die from lack of health care. Basically things as they are now, but with better welfare for people that deserve it or need it.

>>14305738
Nobody's forcing you to do anything, spastic. Go move to a cabin in the woods if you think you're self-reliant enough to go without electricity.

>>14305769
>JUST GO ROT IN THE WOODS SOMEWHERE IF YOU DON'T LIKE BUYING A NEW IPAD EVERY YEAR AND HAVE SEX WHILE YOU'RE AT IT!!!

>>14305769
>They're both ridiculous. The only sensible, mature system is capitalism with some safety net so that people don't starve or die from lack of health care. Basically things as they are now, but with better welfare for people that deserve it or need it.
If Capitalism crash in the decades to come, breaking millions of lives, will you take responsibility? Of course not.

>>14305769
Welfare is dysgenic though. Our current system is dropping the IQ rate of the population because the intelligent have fewer kids later on in life. It's not just IQ either, outright violent psychopaths have a niche in modern society and often have a lot of kids because they arent just executed the first time they commit some crime. Im not a moralfag, I dont really care about any of this, but it is a feature of our society, and I dont think it's possible to have welfare without this happening. You'd have to implement some creepy sterilization program or something.

Another thing is all the children who would have died young are saved by modern medicine. This is surely fucking up the gene pool even further.

>>14304465
>bruh just create a society where everything be free and there no prisons and classes and shieet
The sad thing is you meet people on a daily basis who would be retarded enough to believe this and some who are deluded enough to even defend it (always badly)

>>14304744
my favorite commie line is "tribes were basically communist everything was shared and towards the greater good"
literally no, it was struggle, the weak would often be abandoned, war and rape were accepted as a part of life and the person in charge was usually the strongest and most phsycotic. I feel like the more you learn about human behavior the more impossible the utopian bullshit becomes

>>14304465
>>capitalism bad because wage slavery
There's more to it than that. Why are you posting on /lit/ if you haven't even read?

>>14307689
Primitive communism != Communism

>>14307689
The anthropologists just outright made up a bunch of shit about hunter gatherers to make them seem more pleasant.

>>14304465
why do you think communism excludes work?

>>14304500
what a cool reading of soviet propaganda from your 2019 basement

>>14304500
cool analysis of soviet propaganda from 2019

>>14305721
police are the state's way of maintaining private property

>>14304499
That iPhone was made in a socialist country though

>>14304878
>as i said, anthropology and economic history is where to look
Oh? So we’re going to base human behavior off of examples not technologically relevant to our current scenarios where we have radically juxtaposed contingencies of reinforcement? Okay retard. No wonder they stopped teaching B.F. Skinner in academia. It’d tear the marxist’s running our universities right in half with how badly they’d be btfo.

>>14307689
>don't swing towards that direction, swing towards this one

fucking yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn

>>14304465
>How exactly are you going to provide for everyone if nobody is actually doing any of the work?
That's specifically the question for capitalism, no?

>>14309000
cope

>>14307689
bands =/= tribes

>>14304465
>How exactly are you going to provide for everyone if nobody is actually doing any of the work?
That's a question for capitalists, no?

>>14304516
Massive amounts of productive power and resources are wasted left to rot or destroyed. You even imply it in your analysis of the question by asking about service industry jobs only, because we live in a service economy. The actual material resources and factories needed to provide the goods related to those services are already above what is necessary.

Subjectively valued distribution is inefficient. Electronically planned economies are empirically superior. Read Cockshott or watch his lectures or read David Graeber.