/lit/ - Literature

>>1429232

>>1429232

There's more to it than that. It certainly has a basis in Utilitarianism, but I think Utilitarianism focuses mostly on what makes the masses happy, whilst Objectivism focuses on what makes the individual happy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivism_(Ayn_Rand)

>flanneryoconner.jpg

Not at all. Utilitarianism believes that the ends justify the means and that some individuals can get thrown under the bus for the greater good of collective society. Objectivism argues pretty much the opposite: that the means are the most important thing and each individual person is valuable and not a tool of society.

Objectivism is like the complete opposite of utilitarianism, actually

Well, okay, you could argue that objectivism uses utilitarian standards in its argument, but it certainly gets to a very different place. Objectivism argues that what's best for society is what's best for each individual person - in other words, i need to do what is best for me in a very selfish way, and if i do that presumably there will be some societal benefit (But i don't think objectivism particularly cares about the societal benefit part)

If you want to learn about the more reasonable aspects of Objectivism, read The Fountainhead. She's a very poor writer but has some excellent ideas about the individual's role in society. Then in Atlas Shrugged she starts pretending to understand economics and that's where it gets dumb.

>>1429788
also fountainhead is actually passable as a novel whereas atlas shrugged is horrifically bad

>>1429791
also this.

I'm only starting to read Atlas Shrugged.
So far, it's rambling as all hell.
Haven't read The Fountainhead. Although I'll give credit where credit is due and say this is a good speech.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zc7oZ9yWqO4

From what I know of Objectivism, she's basically saying that people have a right to reap the benefits of their work and the right to pursue their own goals without having to answer to anybody else's desires.

I don't have a problem with that, it's true in many ways.
The great flaw in it though is this idea that you have the right to the above even if it's at the expense of society and common decency.
That's just bullshit.

>>1429970

What do you mean by society? Do you mean the entire world or the nation state you live in? How about the town you live in? How the fuck is one man going to judge what is best for a small town of 3000 people let alone an entire nation or even the world? Now replace society with common decency. Are you now starting to get Ayn Rand's point?

>>1430125
y u mad

>>1429970
Yeah, but when you do read the fountainhead, you'll see that her main characters are shallow, batshit insane, literally inhuman or all three. She ignores, dismisses or fails to allow for a wide variety of human motivations and mis-attributes those she does discuss.

Down to a certain point. It's also bizarre that she makes the only female character in the book a masochist with perfect beauty.

I like the part in The Fountainhead where she sets the novel in Manhattan in the late 20's to early 30's, and completely ignores the depression.

She's nuts but I will say she gets unfairly written off as a philosopher. Her arguments are legitimate even if I disagree with them.

>>1430180
No she doesn't. The climax of the plot revolves around it, and several key characters (the sculptor and Gail) are directly influenced by it.

>Ayn Rand's philosophy

If you shit on those around you, it'll be better for everyone.

>A sane person's philosophy

If you try to help those around you, it'll be better for everyone.

Why did she name the only female character in The Fountainhead Dominique, then make her one of the biggest masochists in literary history, and give her perfect physical beauty?

>>1430125
I mean you don't have the right to let millions starve just because you think you are deserving of more money.
Ayn Rand seems to think those people should have tried harder.

>>1430200
>I am a whiny college kid with rich white parents

Don't contest this summary of you, because if you were anything else, you would believe what Rand says.

>>1430237

Even if I were, that doesn't actually address anything I said.

>>1430237
Have you ever been to a university Objectivist club meeting? It's rich white kids all the way down - it's like they don't let people with even a little color through the door.

>>1430237
Sorry to break it to you, but Objectivists tend to be rich white people.

>>1430244
Actually it does. If you didn't have parents who do everything for you, you wouldn't be what your idea of a "sane" person is. You would be doing everything for yourself just like everyone else.

>>1430249
That's because they're rich white people with brains.

oh dear

>>1430256

I agree. Parents should abandon their five year olds in bad neighborhoods alone with nothing but freeze dried peas and a bowie knife. If they can't make it on their own like everyone else, they deserve what they get.

>>1430275
>attempting to appeal to someone's emotions
>on 4chan

>>1430280

I'm not so foolish as to assume a Randian has emotions. That was more reductio ad absurdum than an emotional appeal.

>reductio ad absurdum

ha ha ha no

>>1430296
Oh I don't even like Rand. I just believe some of the things she said are things that any normal person would do anyways.

>>1430256
>Actually it does. If you didn't have parents who do everything for you, you wouldn't be what your idea of a "sane" person is. You would be doing everything for yourself just like everyone else.

No. You don't build and maintain your own roads. You don't build and maintain your own sewage systems. You don't build and maintain schools, hospitals, museums, etc.

>>1430297
Perfectly reasonable technique in certain circumstances, such as when dealing with principles.

IS A MAN NOT ENTITLED TO THE SWEAT OF HIS BROW?

NO SAYS THE MAN IN WASHINGTON, IT BELONGS TO THE POOR.

NO SAYS THE MAN IN THE VATICAN, IT BELONGS TO GOD

NO SAYS THE MAN IN MOSCOW, IT BELONGS TO EVERYONE

I REJECTED THOSE IDEAS. I CHOSE SOMETHING DIFFERENT. I CHOSE THE IMPOSSIBLE. I CHOSE...

RAPTURE

>>1430311
I'm pretty sure the only reason people do those things is because they make money off of doing it.

>>1430342

Anyone working for the state doesn't actually make money. They perform services and are given welfare in exchange. This is completely opposed to actually creating wealth.

Reading this thread, Rand sounds pretty cool (I've never read her). Fuck everyone else, a dude's gotta do what he thinks is best. I'm gonna go read The Fountainhed and Atlas Shugged now, I'll post a thread about it when I'm done :)

>>1430359
What country are you talking about? Last time I checked, people made money off of working at hospitals and schools.

>>1429770
QUESTION: Do I understand correctly that Objectivism is very similar to Machiavellinism?

>>1430206
ANSWER MY QUESTION DAMNIT

>>1430359
~you could apply this reasoning to a car repairman too~

>>1430342
The government doesn't make money from this. Governments haemorrhage money from these services. In an objectivist society all of these services would be run for a profit.

>>1430405
profit motives have never harmed a single person in the history of the world and it is SLANDER to say they have

Hitler believed in the free market.

>>1430419
you know who else believed in hitler? that's right, HITLER

>>1430382
I'm reasonably certain that you haven't read Machievelli properly.
He was a democrat and wrote using fiery irony when lashing out at his political enemies.

As far as I can tell, Objectivism is most similar to LeVeyan Satanism.

>>1430419
I don't think you got your history right bro.

>>1430463
Touché.
That is eerily accurate :O

>>1430435

Godwin's law.

>>1430464
i know its like he was a national SOCIALIST why cant people remember that

>>1430463
Objectivism started before LaVeyan Satanism did.

>>1430473
fun fact: anton lavey was greatly inspired by ayn rand

>>1430473
bastardizations of Nietzsche basically

>>1430477
National Socialist German Workers' Party

Unfortunately the emphasis was very much on the 'national' (note that most of the actual socialists were purged along with Rohm)

>>1430419

>>1430419
Best be trolling nigga

>>1430451
Machiavellian =! Machiavelli, least 9 times out of 10. Usually refers to the Prince.

So straight up

Anthem vs Atlas Shrugged vs The Fountainhead

>>1430575
Fountainhead > Anthem > Atlas Shrugged

>>1430409
mfw Bhopal

>>1430125

Ayn Rand's point was pretty shallow and related to her misconceptions of reality caused by trauma from the Soviet Union, taking movies and celebrity too seriously, and being batshit insane.

For all her talk of individual liberty, she really just wanted power without having to worry about conscience. Thus, she tried to fix this by seeing her being powerful as the Good so she could free her conscience from that pesky empathy.

It's not surprisingly she admired the mental states of serial killers.

The Fountainhead=Atlas Shrugged=Anthem

A is A, and Shit is Shit.

>>1429770

Not really. That's a pretty dumbed-down and one-sided view of utilitarianism. It's much more complex than that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilitarianism

>>1429770
Actually, Objectivism doesn't think each individual is valuable unless they actively try to be. Anyone who doesn't contribute in a way that Rand feels is worthwhile was a parasite. That's really the opposite of everyone being valuable, now isn't it?

Basically, it's all about doing what's best for you, and screw everyone else. If you have to step on someone to get ahead, you do it. If someone wants your help and there's nothing in it for you, you don't do it. Objectivism is all about selfishness. You never do anything for altruistic reasons, you should only help others if it benefits you, even if it's something like making you feel good and superior to the people you help.

Basically, Objectivism is 4chan.

"Basically, Objectivism is 4chan."

AHAHAHA
I LOVE YOU, this is now my favourite quote!!!

>>1430706
um objectivists have had sex tho??? theory destroyed

>>1430713
Since Rand saw most sex as rape, I suspect 4channers have had "sex" sometimes as well!

So it still works.

>>1430718

>Rand saw sex as rape

That's pretty much Tybrax

>>1430726
Sadly, it's way too many people who see sex that way. Almost all feminazi's.

>>1430744
>he uses Rush Limbaugh terminology

>>1430718
i thought rand was a huge slut

>>1430744
rand was hardly a "feminazi" since she hated women

You're thinking of Mary McCarthy.

>>1430762
No, she just told her husband of 20 years, "BTW I want to start fucking a teenage boy because he aligns with my values more closely. If you love me you won't object. You're my husband still tho lol." She demanded that the teenage boy leave his wife to sleep with her. Once she discovered that the boy was involved with a third woman, Rand flipped her shit and kicked him out of the Objectivist movement.

sage because this topic sucks

>>1430763
Nobody said Rand was a feminazi, friend.

>>1430771
nora ephron should make a julie and julia type movie about a woman whose drippy liberal husband is stepping out on her so she decides to take inspiration from ayn rand to start blowing up cock mercilessly

>>1430463
Touché.
That is eerily accurate :O