/lit/ - Literature

Your sky daddy doesn't exist and never existed

>>14298355
For all intents and purposes, I am a Calvinist.

aha I see what we're dealing w/ here

>>14298360
that's retarded. how can there be Christianity without free will

>he believes in the conventional Abrahamic god.

>>14298379
Stop parroting this bullshit and read the three forms of unity.

>>14298358
Ahah, would you like to have a discussion on this or are you being ironic? Apologies but my irony radar has been severely damaged over the years

>>14298355
Stop trying to sell that trad cat shit when your church is actually pic related

Yes hello

>>14298385
Mhmm welcome back to kek and cringe with the Synod of Dort

>>14298387
Keep coping

>>14298412
What the hell do you mean by that?

VATICAN II WAS ILLEGITIMATE

All you posers that hate the Pope and hate Vatican 2 aren't even real Catholics. You're literally protestants.

>>14298383
Ah yes, clearly there is something inherint to conventional positions that nullifies its truth value

Kek

>>14298422
>>14298424
Hey to be frank, I hate sedes just as much as the next guy. Being a tradcat doesn't mean you're a sede, it just means that you hold more traditional Catholic views and support more traditional Catholic customs

>>14298426
It's not that it's conventional therefore it's wrong.

It's that the idea of an omnibenevolent god is nothing short of retarded. God is infinite and incomprehensible, the only morality you could ascribe to him is amorality.

>>14298358
Buurrrp
Morty

>>14298401
Ah yes, thank you sir.

>>14298434
Sounds like the religious version of being a civic nationalist AKA a cuck.

Just be Presbyterian, bro. Find a minister that supports stoning faggots to death and get proper trad.

>>14298355
I don't believe in God but fully support and back traditional Catholics in arguments here. They are the only people I see that aspire to be something more than human. The rest of humanity..... DUDE MASTURBATION PORN SEX, JUST WASTE TIME CONSUME LMAO, WE'RE JUST ANIMALS ANYWAYS DUDE, COOOOM, UHHHHH HANG OUT, THEN GO COOM, ......At least Thomists in follow reason not somAe blind passion and also, their morality is much more nonsensical with ordered-use, natural law, and vice/virtue schema, whereas the braindead base their morality on completely arbitrary things like malum prohibita feels, and being unable to see the idea of vice, their = BAD, function boils down to just stupid things. OPIOIDS = BAD. NICOTINE = BAD. STIMULANTS = BAD. It is not the behaviors or ends they lead to that are bad but these are bad in and of themselves to the brain dead secular humanist. I happened on a public discussion panel about vaping for instance, these imbeciles were not saying why it was wrong but their deformed, overactive, superior temporal gyrus was saying I AM MORALLY DISGUSTED BY THIS (whereas the Thomist, at least intertwines this with his rationality for some reason as to why). The only sanctioned behavior between these worthless secular/protestant/average humans are simpleton covenants, which they act all somber and and mature with the notion of "consent", as if a little agreement between two brainlet somehow magically makes everything they are doing alright. Also, try to cheat the system, or do something truly amoral for rational reasons, and the average non-religious person will hate you. NOOOOOOOOOOOOO YOU CANT JUST FILL YOUR CAR UP WITH OFF-ROAD DIESEL, YOU'RE CHEATING THE STATE. It's lonely at the top. The trad cats are a bit below but at least they are closer to using their brain than than your average scum.

>>14298453
>their morality is much more nonsensical
sensical*

>>14298437
"...omnibenevolent God is nothing short of retarded"

We'd probably have to argue on some metaethics before getting into any productive discourse, but the Catholic view of God as omnibenevolent or
of perfect goodness, at least in its philosophical/metaphysical side, comes from an analysis of what God is. This gets into a whole discussion on the ontology of change and causality and the aristo-thomist act/potency distinction and how God is Pure Actuality, and from this we'd derive that he's essentially goodness itself, derived from the colloquial understanding of what "goodness" means.

Even if you disagree, you have to admit that there's an entire philosophical tradition behind Catholicism, and that it isn't simply "retarded" or some other bullshit reductionist position that you could take

>>14298458
*sensible

>>14298355
lmaooo dis nigga playin with a dollhouse

>>14298452
I mean, I'm part of the dissident right as well, and I do agree that Church officials should be far more reactionary than they are as of now, but you do realize that ththe Catholic Church has been traditionally the backbone of many reactionary movements in western history, right? You do realize that Catholic moral philosophy provides one of the most stable foundations for right wing views like social and moral traditionalism, patriotism, hierarchy etc., right? This argument is a bit off, and plus, most protestant sects also risk the problems of slipping into liberalism, and I'd argue, to an even greater extent. You really think the presbyterians haven't cucked to the lgbts? Kek

>>14298358
Catholics unironically understand this lmao

>>14298472
There definitely is a strong philosophical tradition behind Catholicism but the thing about it is they started with all their conclusions first and then worked backwards to rationalise them. They didn't come to deduce that God is necessarily good. They started with the principle that God is necessarily good and then made an intellectual effort to figure out how that can be reconciled with God's other attributes. Aquinas definitely made a very, very good effort but as later thinkers would point out a Thomistic god is incredibly limited in actual power. He may have made a good case for how God could be omnibenevolent but in doing so he completely ruled out any possibility of God being truly omnipotent. This is actually a position that a lot of contemporary Thomist philosophers have bit the bullet on.

Not to mention the 1+1=3 thing. How could an omnipotent God, creator of all things, be bound by the laws of logic?

I'm afraid to say that too many "tradcats" have warped ideas about absolute power and unchanging perfection which eclipse the central teaching of their faith. The traditional concept of God is incoherent.

>>14298495
No the Catholic church has always cucked to the dominant power in Italy.

>Charlemagne conquers Italy
>Cuck to Charlemagne

>Barbarossa conquers Italy
>Cuck to the HRE

>Foreign domination of Italy
>Pope Cucks to either France, Austria or Spain like a revolving door. Just depends on who's got the biggest army the fattest wallet this week.

>Napoleon conquers Italy
>Cuck to Napoleon

>Coalition conquers Italy
>Cuck to the coalition.

>Italy is united.
>DONT cuck to the new kingdom because you're already both cucked to France

>Mussolini takes Rome.
>Cuck to Mussolini

>Allies conquer Italy
>Cuck to the allies.

Had the Ottomans conquered Italy the pope unironically probably would have converted to Islam just so he could keep all his bling and score political favours. The Catholic Church is a purely political entity, this is why suddenly today they're pushing globohomo like a man possessed. They've always been willing to do whatever it takes to ingratiate themselves with the dominant power, any actual principles or beliefs are just for aesthetics.

>>14298551
>implying that God didn't willingly cuck to the the human condition to save us
>implying that the job of Catholicism is to dominate instead of ministering the sacraments and guiding people to salvation
This is your brain on self-importance

Would a Traditional Muslim be a Tradmu (picrel) ?

>>14298495
Also
>the presbyterians haven't cucked to the lgbts?
Nigger do you know how Presbyterianism works? There is no "Presbyterian church", there's about as many different Presbyterian churches in America alone as there are individual Jews. Literally anybody can decide they want to open up a Presbyterian church and tell their old one to fuck off.

>>14298566
Guiding people to salvation means more niggers for Europe? I love it! I'm officially a #TradCat

Fucking kek @ these fools. Since when are African toes a sacrament?

>>14298595
>implying catholicism's job is to preserve muh hwwhyteraice/yurop/muh west/muh liberalism/muh secular liberalism
Pathetic

>>14298604
Would you rather Europe be black and Christian or white and and unchristian.

>>14298607
What do you think?
t.syrian catholic

>>14298607
>implying you can be white and unchristian
:)

>>14298607
>Europe
>white
Seriously just pick one

Cathbros, tell me about the Three Days of Darkness. I've read about it quite a bit, but I can't figure out if it's supposed to be the same 3 days of darkness in Revelation or not.

>>14298607
A black Europe cannot be Christian.

>>14298516
No doubt am I thankful that you've recognized the philosophical tradition of Catholicism. I still take some issues with what you've said. First off, I don't think the motives of these Catholic philosophers really matter. As long as the argumentation is sound, the motives of the people making those arguments doesn't have any bearing on the truth value of their conclusions. You'd be committing a genetic fallacy if you pointed this out as some form of an agument against the Thomist position. But either way, this isn't even true with regards to Aristotle's arguments. He wasn't a Catholic, and it didn' seem like he'd have any motivation for believing in the concept of Pure Actuality/Unmoved Mover, or the concept of Virtue/Natural Law ethics. He believed those soley on the basis of arguments, and the Catholics borrowed heavily from him. Second of all, God is still omnipotent because the definition of having unlimited power, meaning that you can do all things. "All things" doesn't, and can't include logically contradictory "things" because they can't exist. Something is only a "thing" insofar as it exists, otherwise it would be nothing. Third of all, I don't think it's true that most Thomists have bitten the bullet with regards to what you were saying. Unless you count the Occamites and, to a limited extent, the Scotusians, as being part of the Thomist label, then I don't think this is true. The most prominent Thomist academics like Feser, Oderberg, Arraj etc. haven't conceded this point about God's power being too limited. But even if it were true that most Thomists have conceded that point, I'd still argue against it.

Now to answer your last question, the reason why God can't do contradictory "things" is because, like I said, contradictory "things" or "actions" don't exist. If they don't exist then there isn't an actualized version of them, and thus there wouldn't be a potency version of them, and if there isn't a potency version then of course God can't actualize it (since anything actualized must be potency prior).

>>14298631
>>14298645
>>14298648
>>14298663
They can never give a straight answer can they?

Oh boy, another LARP thread where a bunch if kids who don't go to church bitch about a universalist religion letting non-whites in is "non-traditional".

Yawn.

"traditionalist" is such a none label. Marxists can be considered traditionalist since they follow standards from the 1800s. You don't get to pick and choose what is traditional and what isn't

>>14298677
>Stonenazi

>>14298551
So you really think that the Catholic Church wasn't behind the Carlists, the vendee counterrevolutionaries, the Habsburgs and the austro-hungarian empire, traditionalist Ireland, the Polish resistence against the USSR, the Ancien Regime etc.?

And yes, I understand that the presbyterians aren't centralized, but that contributes to the problem even more. The individualistic nature of presbyterians allows them to follow more liberal positions, which is exactly why I said that they cucked to the lgbts. Most of them, as of now, are liberals. Atleast with the Catholic Church you've had consistent teachings on premarital sex, homosexuality, contraception, the family etc. There's an entire philosophical backbone for Catholic ethics (classical Thomistic natural law and virtue ethics). And, while yes they haven't as staunchly emphasized these teachings, and while yes there are many "Catholics" today that don't believe in them, that doesn't mean that the Catholic Church doesn't have strong moral principles. Even Pope Francis, a pope whom people generally paint as liberal, pays lip service to these teachings.

>>14298657
>but I can't figure out if it's supposed to be the same 3 days of darkness in Revelation or not.
No. It'll happen prior, the results won't be permanent either, eventually the Church will degenerate to a state similar to the pre-darkness Church.

>>14298718
While yes, the Church hasn't emphasized these teachings as staunchly, lately*

>>14298677
>ask loaded question
>REEEE WHY DIDNT YOU GIVE ME THE ANSWER I WANT TO HEAR

>>14298607
I want a european christian Europe.
Fuck whites, they are protestant scum.
Whites are not European, they are american.

>>14298727
Oh.
Does this come before the supposed Great Monarch at least?

>>14298579
Imagine believing that individualist protestantism won't cause people to cuck into liberalism, despite many of their core beliefs overlapping kek

Alright, I have some stuff to do. I'll return to this thread some other time and hopefully I can contribute more into conversations. So far I've been pleased with my first welcome to /lit/, bye guys.

>>14298664
Aristotle's great, I don't have a problem with Aristotle. What I have a problem with is Aquinas' idea of God.

The way I see it is making things that don't exist into things that do exist is God's business, that's what makes him God. He can do the impossible, he can make whatever he wills into reality, he is not bound by logic or contradiction. If any of those things were not true he could not sincerely be called omnipotent because he would not have power over all things. Rather logic, reality and contradiction would have power over God which would make him no God at all. Logic and contradiction represent the limits of human understanding and it's in those areas where I feel like it's the closest you can get at rationally grasping God's power - we can't grasp it at all, we just know we couldn't do it no matter how hard we tried. A man could never imagine how 1+1 could ever be 3, but God could and that's why he's God. All in all I'm more convinced by Descartes arguments that God is completely beyond our comprehension and literally could do anything. Well that's only half true, I'd argue that there's two things God couldn't do and that's a) fail and b) something that is just a nonsense combination of words like a shapeless cube.

I didn't mean most Thomists, as far as I know it's a minority view. In particular I was thinking of Peter Geach.

>>14298453
So you are the guy who posts in threads about Thomistic proofs always correcting atheist "misinterpretations" of them while claiming to be on the atheist side? Anyway you might as well come out of the Thomist closet already, with your way of seeing things you will become a full blown tradcath in a few months anyway.

>>14298718
>So you really think that the Catholic Church wasn't behind the Carlists,
Did they not crown Isabella queen?
>the vendee counterrevolutionaries
Did they not crown Napoleon emperor?
>the Habsburgs and the austro-hungarian empire
>the Ancien Regime
Actually I'd say the opposite, the Pope wasn't behind these guys, they were the ones pulling strings on the Pope.
>the Polish resistence against the USSR
Yes. It's not like Finland, a protestant country, put up an actually successful resistance to the USSR.
>traditionalist Ireland
Bro, don't even talk to me about Catholicism in Ireland. Fuck the church in this country.

>The individualistic nature of presbyterians allows them to follow more liberal positions, which is exactly why I said that they cucked to the lgbts. Most of them, as of now, are liberals.
I'm not sure what it's like where you live but here Presbyterianism is basically white Islam.

>>14298772
If you have a personal relationship with God, if you study the Bible,and you trust your own judgement you'll never cuck to liberalism. Liberalism takes root when you start to put idols like money and pleasure above God, and the Vatican is a palace of idolatry.

It's when you put a blinged out Italian between yourself and God that you give men the power to lead you by the nose straight into sin.