/lit/ - Literature

>>14269088
Nobody arrives at atheism through logic. There's always cynicism or vengeance spurring their observations. Not saying atheism isn't correct, but you would get more logically sound argumentation out of a hardcore creationist due to the fact creationists don't wildly adapt modalities for the sake of self preservation in the moment. Atheists will argue impercisim one moment then some wacky hudu feeling in their gut the next. It's sophistry.

I don't get it. Is it an argument against god's existence or god's morality? Whatever god you came up with may be fair, but he's an asshole that isn't worth worshipping.

>>14269088

You just have to accept that most people are complete retards when it comes to anything vaguely philosophical.

Thin of these reddit-atheist types who base their morals on "its called being a decent human being" -type non-statements.

...a God who could make good children as easily a bad, yet preferred to make bad ones; who could have made every one of them happy, yet never made a single happy one; who made them prize their bitter life, yet stingily cut it short; who gave his angels eternal happiness unearned, yet required his other children to earn it; who gave is angels painless lives, yet cursed his other children with biting miseries and maladies of mind and body; who mouths justice, and invented hell--mouths mercy, and invented hell--mouths Golden Rules and foregiveness multiplied by seventy times seven, and invented hell; who mouths morals to other people, and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, then tries to shuffle the responsibility for man's acts upon man, instead of honorably placing it where it belongs, upon himself; and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites his poor abused slave to worship him!
- Mark Twain

t. Christians twisting themselves into a pretzel trying to explain why their almighty Yaldabaoth couldnt create a world without suffering.

>>14269088
Congratulations, you are a bonafied retard.

>>14269116
Literally not Christian nor do I neccessarily believe in diety. Way to prove my point in the first post moron.

>>14269115
https://youtu.be/BpaRouocBes

>>14269088
>the only rational way to create a world without kids getting cancer is one without suffering
if god was rational he would've done that. checkmate

>>14269088
Theism leads down a rabbit hole of possibilities, it's easier to just be a materialist.

>>14269128
I applaud you for your honesty anon. It's clear to me that is the main motivator behind "educated" people claiming atheism. Poor vocabularies and imperceptible free time.

>>14269088
>he must necessarily not interfere in the random dice rolls that are part and parcel of a material existence
the atheist is dumb and so are you

>>14269105
you can't even spell empiricism you retard.

>>14269138
>getting angry at transposed letters
>not even a full on typo

Might as well end it now anon.

>>14269116
A world where no one suffers is incompatible with free will, you may as well just get a lobotomy if you believe that ALL suffering should be eliminated. If you can accept that SOME suffering is necessary it becomes logical that whatever upper bound you set to the suffering will seem horrifying once you’re “in the game”, it’s an inextricable part of the material world and the fact that most people desperately want to keep living shows that we implicitly agree that the cost is worth the benefit. Furthermore god is doubly justified in Christianity by allowing us to crucify him PRECISELY to demonstrate how fair life is, again you could argue that there is no proof of this but that’s changing the original argument “why would god do x”, which Christianity totally and utterly refutes. It’s a non starter argument.

>>14269132
it's more likely that educated people see the popular theistic religions for the derivative myths they are and deism as the shallow and philosophically naive attempt to cling to those religions that it is

>>14269134
Christianity explicitly affirms free will, free will is contingent on randomness. This is logically demonstrable.

>>14269125
But creating a world without suffering is meddling into the very fabric of material existence, which God won't do because he promised not to meddle in it. And he already has a world without suffering: heaven, which you can enter too granted you deserve it, which is only proven by atoning to the primordial sin or disobedience.

It's really all that simple.

>>14269088
>explain in clear concise terms how that entire statement is nonsensical, the only rational way to create a world without kids getting cancer is one without suffering
That does no follow but even if it did there is no reason for an omnipotent being to create a world with suffering, especially not with unnecessary suffering so arguing it is necessary is just arguing to defend something after the fact.
There is no reason for a god to create beings that should strive for some made up goals, such as those goals Christianity and Islam has.

>>14269146
>>14269158
The ultimate promise of Christianity is a 'new heaven and a new earth' in which God removes all the world's sadness, death, and suffering which He is so bitterly opposed to. The entire religion is based on the belief that creation without suffering is not only possible but inevitable by process of a mysterious historical providence.

How is this compatible with what you've said?

>>14269146
Yaldabaoth only managed to crucify Jesus's physical body. The Holy Spirit, "The Christ" suffered nothing. and returned to the Pleroma

>>14269151
Funny because all the educated people I know continually push their own myths like historical materialism, gender equality, and others.

>>14269151
Like I said. Imperceptible free time. The only way you arrive at those conclusions is through zero independent research.

>>14269088
Don't you get it? The point of the child with cancer isn't that they suffer, it's that the knowledge of their existence makes faggots like the one you debated uncomfortable. At the root of atheism is a deep narcissism.

>>14269173
independent research is what leads countless intelligent people for various different religions to overcome their indoctrination and accept that there is no god

>>14269169
Read the Antichrist by Nietzsche. The New World as an inner realisation, not a physical one Jesus is going to bring to earth

>>14269146
is their suffering in heaven

>>14269180
Reading Dawkins is not independent research. Independent research is studying and practice. Reading both sides of the argument.

>>14269146
Free will doesn't exist, though. We have will, but it isn't free.

>>14269088
Your arguments aren't any less retarded than theirs.

>I got so heated in the moment I was just straight rambling for five minutes.
Oh, a woman then. Never mind.

>>14269184
I'm talking about mainstream Christian belief, I don't care what Nietzsche has to say.

>>14269192
Its too bad that mainstream Christian belief is wrong

>>14269170
Based Gnostic poster.

>>14269177
pretending to have a personal relationship with a magic superhero who loves you and will make you live forever is narcissism not to mention delusional. not believing in retarded bullshit like god is not narcissistic it's simply rational

>>14269187
the vast majority of atheists were formally religious and actually have considered both sides of the argument. it is through seeing both sides that we realize there is no god

>>14269169
Wrong.
>Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
The kingdom of god is already within us, the suffering outside us is obviously an inherent property due to free will. Aka bodily suffering.

Explain a little bit more, OP. What's your initial position in the first place? Do you believe in God, etc? I'm already having trouble with the athesit claiming God does X. As far as Christianity is concerned, God is doing nothing anymore, save for a stray miracle every now and again.

>>14269204
Nothing is more narccistic than make a post full of strawmans and hasty generalizations in order to maintain a faux air of logic around people that construct arguments far better than you. Let's start with that.

>>14269192
>I don’t want to actually argue against an accurate interpretation! I only like picking arguments with poor uneducated people so I can feel good about myself after I repeatedly tell them their entire lives are worthless and no one cares about them.
Why are atheists like this?

>>14269209
>>14269213
These two know whats up

>>14269208
It's almost as if they were indoctrinated as children and resent their childhood and or never even had an educated understanding of their so called religion then grew impatient as an adult and as anon said, materialism is easier.

>>14269212
what arguments? the entire premise is retarded. make your great argument and i'll respond politely, call me a narcissistic for not buying your stupid bullshit and i'll call you out

>>14269158
>But creating a world without suffering is meddling into the very fabric of material existence
So is creating a world *with* suffering, or any world for that matter.

All of these theodicy back-and-forths are worthless wastes of time anyway. Any conceivable theodicy argument has already been made, reformulated, countered, counter-countered and dissolved to shit a million fucking times.

>>14269224
>>14269208
Why are you guys arguing over a statement that hasnt even been substantiated lmao

>>14269213
>poor uneducated people
*the entire Catholic theological tradition

>>14269204
>it's narcissism to view yourself as a fundamentally inferior being subject to the judgement of a higher perfect being
>said being has the same relationship with you as all human beings, you are 1 of billions
Do you even know what the words you employ mean? Also this
>>14269212

>>14269224
>It's almost as if they were indoctrinated as children
yes exactly I'd venture that most of you are still stuck with whatever religion was drilled into your head as a child

as for if they resent their childhood probably not though they might resent being lied to about religion

and is materialism "easier" it makes far more sense but there is nothing easier and lazier than pretending some god has a plan for you and will make everything ok

>the one proud atheist argues like a disaffected toddler
Every fucking time

>>14269234
do you accept the judgement of the higher perfect being Allah or are you a hypocrite?

>>14269225
Imagine being this much of a midwit

>>14269233
Don't waste time arguing against Catholic brainlets. Argue against the actual teachings of the Gospel.
Just because people claim to be Christians dosen't mean they actually follow, or even understand the teachings of Jesus

"There has only ever been one Christian, and he died on the cross"
-Nietzsche

>>14269236
Matthew 18:3

>>14269239
See
>>14269240

>>14269224
>materialism is easier.
Honestly, how so? With materialism, you're actually pressed to find answers to questions like morality, free will, consciousness, etc., whereas a god can be conceptualized as the ultimate dogmatic break in any line of questioning.

I'm not arguing about actual truth here, I just find it weird that you'd perceive materialism as an easier position in any sense.

>>14269240
do you not believe in a literal adam and eve?

>>14269240
Atheists and creationists are literally two sides of the same worthless coin, lmao.

>>14269241
So do you believe in any of the supernatural claims of the gospels?

>>14269240
Lol. Origen was a Gnostic-Neoplatonist though.
Christard Niggers burned his writings, but they still use arguments of his when they can.

You are responsible for those you have tamed. We already alliviated many sufferings of the past and will probably destroy many others, so why not just cut to the chase?
>>14269088
If those kids are "small people" then you may as well say that anyone are "small".
>>14269158
So he can only punish people?
>>14269171
Define those.

>>14269252
I do indeed. Its the Gospels that make me believe that there are no legitimate Christians left.

Jesus said his followers would be able to perform miracles like he did

>>14269243
don't see what the meme about Ken Ham has to do with you viewing yourself as superior to the judgement of the perfect most high Allah hypocrite

>>14269258
I hope you get to perform a miracle one day

>>14269256
>If those kids are "small people" then you may as well say that anyone are "small".
What did he mean by this

>>14269251
creationists are more respectable than christians who try to pretend their religion is compatible with science and reason

>>14269233
Catholicism is a heretical cult anyway, no real Christian takes Catholicism seriously.

>>14269266
I performed one on your mom last night.

>>14269273
You think you understand Christ better than Francis of Assisi did?

>>14269245
God still necessitates a drive to understand morality and ethics. Anyone that ACTUALLY believes in God, as a certainty like gravity or the sun, will be tormented by uncertainty over every choice they make. It certainly doesn’t make anything easier. I would know

>>14269266
Im afraid that would be very unlikely, not this far into the Kali Yuga

>>14269273
Based. But so is East Orthodox, Protestantism, 7th Day Adventist, and basically every other Church that thinks the Gnostics were "Heretics"

>>14269158
>But creating a world without suffering is meddling into the very fabric of material existence
Which was God's doing in the first place, supposedly. Being omniscient, he knew well what he was doing in advance.
>which God won't do because he promised not to meddle in it.
If God doesn't meddle in the world, why should anybody worship him and respect his commandments?
>And he already has a world without suffering: heaven, which you can enter too granted you deserve it, which is only proven by atoning to the primordial sin or disobedience.
Heaven is a carrot on a stick.

>>14269273
Protestantism is from over 1,000 years after the catholic church was founded. How is the older church the heretical one?

https://youtu.be/XKAHoYCWXF8
https://youtu.be/j-gbOnWj6Mw
https://youtu.be/CWIZEVBAKww
Disprove any of those.
>>14269268
What defines "small" in this context, probably.
>>14269273
No true scotsman

>>14269283
I agree, how can the oldest Christians be the heretical ones?

>>14269088
> the only rational way to create a world without kids getting cancer is one without suffering

Any God that creates a world with suffering is one I deem evil. To be directly responsible for literally all bad things that have ever occurred is repulsive.

> because god is fair he must necessarily not interfere in the random dice rolls that are part and parcel of a material existence

How is that “fair”? Why ought there be “random dice rolls” in the first place?

> >explain that the kids getting cancer thing is a blatant appeal to emotion

Morality is an appeal to emotion you fucking mongoloid.

>>14269108
> Thin of these reddit-atheist types who base their morals on "its called being a decent human being" -type non-statements.

Morality is based on emotional intuition for everyone alive. Nothing more.

>>14269282
>god dosen't meddle in our world except when he does

>>14269146
>A world where no one suffers is incompatible with free will

Free will doesn’t exist so whatever point you’re trying to make is flat.

>>14269270
>NO YOU CAN'T JUST ACT LIKE THIS BOOK SATURATED WITH PARABLES ISN'T MEANT TO BE INTERPRETED 100% LITERALLY NOOO
>SOIWOJAK.TIF
retard

>>14269287
you have any recommended reading? I liked the Apocryphon of John

>>14269266
It's a miracle that nobody punched you in the face

>>14269158
>But creating a world without suffering is meddling into the very fabric of material existence

He made the damn thing according to the fairy tales, so he should be able to make a world without suffering and never create any worlds with suffering.

> which God won't do because he promised not to meddle in it.

Why?

> And he already has a world without suffering: heaven, which you can enter too granted you deserve it, which is only proven by atoning to the primordial sin or disobedience.

>Make up for a crime you literally did not commit to enter the world that you should have already been in

Christianity is incoherent.

>>14269302
Low reading comprehension take

Kill yourselvws you fucking pseuds and choke on deeez nuts

>>14269293
>implying suffering is unconditionally evil
>implying a tyrant that rules you is benevolent
retard

>>14269232
I wasn't. I was mainly just making the perpetual mental 12 year old angry.

>>14269304
The retards are those who mistake them for more than just parables

>>14269280
I get that, but that's not what I meant. I was referring to questions of moral realism and the like, basically the problem of resolving supposed moral truths with hard materialism in an explanatory sense.

I'm not claiming that theists don't have an impetus to gain a deeper understanding of whatever set of morals their faith includes, but the fundamental questions like "Are there moral truths *at all*?" and "If so, what's their origin?" are usually answered whereas a materialistic position comes with the difficult challenge of having to sort out even such base fundamentals.

>>14269319
smartest post in the thread
the whole thread is built for trolling nd shitflinging

>arguing with an atheist

This whole thread is off topic btw.

>>14269323
Matthew 5:22

>>14269304
Suggesting that the Bible can be interpreted nonliterally is an extremely dangerous road for the believer and an obvious angle of attack for the nonbeliever because we can simply toss God, Jesus, and all the miracles into the “parable” category and call it a day.

>>14269245
Dogma =/= theism

But if we are to appeal to conjecture,
>Honestly, how so? With materialism, you're actually pressed to find answers to questions like morality, free will, consciousness, etc., whereas a god can be conceptualized as the ultimate dogmatic break in any line of questioning.

When was the last time you met a materialist that did any of this? I've never met one in my entire life. Not saying materialists are lesser, more that it's just an out. If you used theism as an out chances are you will use atheism in the same way. All most people do is put a fresh coat of paint on their bullshit.

>>14269138

>>14269088
>the only rational way to create a world without kids getting cancer is one without suffering, because god is fair he must necessarily not interfere in the random dice rolls that are part and parcel of a material existence
Either God's omnipotence contains the power to define rational to create a fair world without suffering, in which case God is an asshole, or else God is not omnipotent, and via the Bible is therefore a liar, and so is most certainly not real
>>>14269088
>explain that the kids getting cancer thing is a blatant appeal to emotion
Your whole religion is a blatant appeal to emotion. Philosophy doesn't lead someone to your particular God. People like Augustine were literally hardcore coping over the fact that serving God had no effect on their prosperity.
>>14269088
>kids are just small people anyway and if anything their capacity to suffer is less than an adults
You have no "emotional intelligence" as the trendy saying goes. That kids may have an arbitrarily lower suffering capacity is not critical to the question he asked you, which is based in the widespread idea that children are 'innocent.' You may dispute this because of original sin or what have you, but I've been to several churches including a mega church where this idea of children's innocence to the world was affirmed. The overall idea being, children are brought into the world through no decision of their own (and indirectly through God's decision), and thus do not deserve serious suffering for their imperfection. To argue with people you must meet them on these terms and not strawman them that they believe children are disposable because of materialism.

>>14269329
t. self appointed tard wrangler retard extraordinaire

>>14269329
You would unironically benefit from reading the bible, particularly the parts about hubris.

>>14269321
>implying suffering is unconditionally evil

It can be emotionally satisfying for others to suffer under some circumstances, but the imposition of all suffering to ever exist upon hundreds of billions of humans and trillions of other animals is quite clearly evil. Grug did nothing to warrant a slow death from infection.

>implying a tyrant that rules you is benevolent

A tyrant capable of making the world perfect for his subjects and doing so is benevolent by definition.

>>14269245
>>14269347
>>14269353
Shut the fuck up already you embarrassing spergs. Nobody gives a shit.

>>14269356
it's a dirty job but someone's gotta do it

>>14269240
This is the kind of behaviour that pr*testant am*ricans are capable of

ITT:

You should've appealed to his latent homosexuality by pointing out children get cancer because women got outwitted by a snake.

>>14269330
>I get that, but that's not what I meant. I was referring to questions of moral realism and the like, basically the problem of resolving supposed moral truths with hard materialism in an explanatory sense.

I’m really curious why you think there’s any materialists who think moral truths exist. Moral truths are literally impossible, materialism, idealism, or dualism. You can’t have an “objectively best flavor of Doritos” because which one tastes the best varies between observers. Moral realism is just a category error.

>>14269365
I read the shit many times that's why I can't take it seriously

>>14269378
Shut up retard. No one gives a shit about your opinions

>>14269385
Triggered by facts

>>14269376
This thread exploded so fast. Holy shit

God is the ultimate cope

>>14269390
No one gives a shit about your discussions, this entire thread is dogshit

>ism
>ism
>ism
>ism
>ism

>>14269158
To be clear, there is no free will in heaven, right?

>>14269391
Thank goodness

>>14269396
I agree, honestly.

Why do mental midgets constantly attempt to troll /lit/? It never works. Good thread btw.

check em

>>14269348
Do you have a collection of 500+ smuggies?

>>14269411
nice. but czech mein doppel

>>14269405
God gave us free will, why would he take that away after death?

>>14269414
check these bro

>>14269430
>God gave us free will

Free will doesn’t exist, so he apparently didn’t. Even if God existed, which he does not, it would be impossible for him to coexist with free will because God is supposedly all-knowing.

> why would he take that away after death?

Why not? It obviously causes a lot of problems according to Christian sophistry.

>>14269428
sage goes in all fields btw, it works like a downvote. classic oldfag trick

This is why omnipotence is a silly idea. Theists should drop it.

>>14269442
>it would be impossible for him to coexist with free will because God is supposedly all-knowing.
That doesn't even make sense, observing an action doesn't change the outcome.

>>14269347
>Dogma =/= theism
Huh? I was talking about a god serving the argumentative function of a *dogmatic break* (or break-off) in a line of justification. That's a philosophical term/concept, not a religious one.

The rest of your post didn't answer my question. I wanted to know why (presumably) you considered materialism *as a position* to be the easier one, not whether or not you've ever met a materialist who pondered the issues I've mentioned. If what you meant to say originally was "I've never met a materialist who didn't default to easy justifications and explanations", then fine. I don't care. What I know about materialist positions (and theistic counterparts, for that matter) is informed by materialist (and theist) writings, not by the people I happen to bump into.

>>14269456
I can reply predict the reply to this post, Atheists subscribing to the belief quantum theory is authoritative are worse than fundamentalists.

>>14269378
Circular reasoning

>>14269378
>I’m really curious why you think there’s any materialists who think moral truths exist.
Jesus Christ, read a fucking book, you absolute retard.

>>14269310
Apocryphon of John is pretty good, you should read everything in the Nag Hammadi library. The Gospel of Thomas is probably the best.
You should also read Platonic + Neoplatonic literature, because Gnosticism stemmed from that. The whole idea of the "Pleroma" or the "perfect world, the Aeons" is Platos world of forms in themselves. The Wisdom literature of Solomon (especially the Proverbs) is also hugely Gnostic.

The whole "God is evil" meme is more of a larp by modern Gnostics. We dont really think Yaldabaoth is "evil", just more of a chaotic force of nature (prideful/ignorant, but not necessarily evil) that does whatever he wants. we just focus on escaping the cycle of reincarnation.

There is a difference between the two major schools of Gnosticism, Sethianism/Valentinianism, the Sethians are generally more opposed to Yaldabaoth than the Valentinians are. They exaggerated his evilness a fair bit, which is why Plotinus wrote a book against them. The Apocryphon of John you read is a Sethian text.

>>14269466
Haven’t read any books made by materialists who believe in moral truths. Can you please name one?

Define "god" you motherfucking faggots. I've noticed people will shift their definition depending on the circumstances. In daily life, "god" will literally tell them what not to eat, yet in arguments "god" is simply "the creator of the universe". Fucking retards.

>>14269088
These are some low IQ discussions desu. Get more into metaphysics you brainlets. Abrahamic religion are objectively pleb tier ideas.

>>14269476
Karl Marx

>>14269456
>That doesn't even make sense, observing an action doesn't change the outcome.

God knowing all future events means that those events are predetermined to occur through some fashion. This also means God himself has no free will.

>>14269465
There is no circular reasoning. You are mistaken.

>>14269442
>>14269456
>>14269463
>>14269464
>>14269465
>>14269466
>>14269470
>>14269476
>>14269478
>>14269489

>>14269488
Karl Marx believed in moral truths? A bit dumb of him.

>>14269470
How can I get started with Valentian Gnosticism? I've read about it for years but have resigned to just practicing Theravada and Kaballah/Judaism. I have the "Gnostic bible" near my bed as we speak but it kind of comes off as gibberish with no foundational knowledge.

>>14269496
Holy shit bros it's a wojak!

>>14269496
>look mom, I replied to everyone with a brainlet meme

>>14269500
BENIS

>>14269504
PUSSY

>>14269506
POOPOO

>>14269430
So suffering and evil is not actually necessary for free will and willingly loving God? HMMMMMM

>>14269504
>>14269506
>>14269500
Retards
Every post above my post is retarded

>>14269463
>What I know about materialist positions (and theistic counterparts, for that matter) is informed by materialist (and theist) writings, not by the people I happen to bump into.

If you apply the same standard to religious apologists and you will quickly see they are matched in difficulty. And yes I was talking about self proclaimed practitioners.

>>14269489
>God knowing all future events means that those events are predetermined to occur through some fashion
That heavily assumes God is constrained by our current understanding of physics.

>>14269476
In all honesty, most 17th/18th/19th and even early 20th century materialists who have dabbled in ethics have attempted to prove or at least justify moral truths on materialistic grounds. If you want an influential and extremely extensive work, then read this.

If you want more modern babble by pop phil clowns, both Harris and Pinker are materialists who stipulate moral truths.

>>14269519
>>14269523
>>14269526

PEEPEE POOPOO HEHEHE

SBRLBBEL BRLS BRL BBLBLBL

>>14269523
>That heavily assumes God is constrained by our current understanding of physics.

No it doesn’t. God either knows the future or he does not know the future. Which is it?

>>14269303
>imagine being this stupid
That’s a separate argument. If your argument is god doesn’t exist because that would be like totally mean, it isn’t actually an argument because if god exists and if he gave us free will, suffering is necessarily a part of that. You have to refute free will. The point is the argument the atheist was making was incoherent and stupid, another thing atheists always do is change tack rapidly. As soon as you dispel one argument it’s right back to “lol skydaddy in a book absolutely delusional”

>>14269532

>>14269478
>define God
Read Aquinas

>>14269283
Protestantism is also heretical. The most accurate Christianity has basically been stamped out of the ground, your best bet is to go it alone, the closest alternatives are Eastern Orthodox or Armenian Apostolic

So much Reddit spacing in these replies.

>>14269500
Two main Valentinian texts I know of are; The Tripartite Tractate and the Gospel of Philip.
But there are many others in the Nag Hammadi scriptures too (I dont have 'The Gnostic Bible' you are referring to, so im not sure exactly whats in it, I know some Nag Hammadi texts are there. The Gnostics also used many of the regular "Canonical" texts of the bible as well though, Especially the Gospel of John, and the Wisdom literature of Solomon (Proverbs + The 'Apocryphal' wisdom texts, likem the Psalms of Solomon and the Wisdom of Solomon). They also really liked the Gospel of Thomas

It should be easier to understand Gnosticism if you have a background in Platonism and Neoplatonism.
Plato was the one who came up with the idea of the Demiurge, and believed that the Demiurge built this world based on his ideal world of forms. A fair few early Christians recognised Jesus was a messenger from this ideal world, and a way for the Soul (Divine Spark) to remember its divine origin, after it had become attached to the material world.

Of course they claimed that Jesus did have secret conversations and taught hidden knowledge to those people who were worthy of knowing it (and I genuinely believe he did, there is lots of indication in the canonical Gospels that he spoke to people in the open in parables, but had hidden teachings for his disciples)

(Matthew 13:10-11)
The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?" He replied, "Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.

GNARK GNARK GNARK GNARK

>>14269543
This brings me back to the days of peepoo pepe spam in /r9k/. 4chan was just not ready for such an avant garde meme

Religion brings the absolute worst out of /lit/

>>14269558
This whole thread is peepee poopoo

>>14269107
Both. Indeed, a god that can create heaven but wills suffering is an asshole. A god that can neither create heaven nor prevent suffering is not worth calling God.

>>14269552
The Antichrist by Nietzsche is also a very underrated, and unknown "Gnostic" text ;)

Carl Jungs Seven Sermons to the Dead is alright too

>>14269417
Yes.

>>14269566
They're not from /lit/. They're crossboarders from somewhere else

>>14269526
Sounds a bit like an attempt to “sell” materialism by trying to show that you can keep “moral truths” if you convert to it or perhaps trying to make your own personal inclinations seem more legitimate to yourself or others. I just do whatever feels intuitive.

>>14269566
The absolute worst is hearing rational discussions of ignorant pseuds. Wojak memes are more than welcome.

>>14269532
I know this thread is full of retards who don't know shit about the position they're arguing for, let alone the one they're arguing against, but that specific issue is hardly unresolved. Read Boethius' Consolatio Philosophiae, for example, where he offers an explanatory model for the compatibility with a literally all-knowing god and free will.

read calvin

>>explain that the kids getting cancer thing is a blatant appeal to emotion and kids are just small people anyway and if anything their capacity to suffer is less than an adults and yet we revere them only due to our innate biases so his materialist position is inherently hypocritical since he probably places undue value on children
Does that mean a fetus is even less valuable because of it's complete inability to suffer?

>>14269576
Someone should start posting porn and gore, so the pseuds get BTFO and they go crying bullshit somewhere else

>>14269314
So, god, after death and rebirth of Christ, decided/followed his own plan to minimise his activity upon earth for whatever arbitrary for us reason?

>>14269107
>>14269568
>>14269575
>>14269577
>>14269580
>>14269588
NO ONE GIVES A SHIT

>>14269575
>Sounds a bit like an attempt to “sell” materialism by trying to show that you can keep “moral truths” if you convert to it or perhaps trying to make your own personal inclinations seem more legitimate to yourself or others.
Some materialist authors (mostly modern ones) strike me exactly this way, to be honest, but many (and this includes G.E. Moore) absolutely did have a legitimate interest in making morals truths plausible within a materialist framework.

>>14269380
>I've totally read the bible
>that's why my arguments against it amount to quoting has been boomer comedians
x doubt

>>14269580
cue the christcuck doublethink

>>14269597
>Some materialist authors (mostly modern ones) strike me exactly this way, to be honest, but many (and this includes G.E. Moore) absolutely did have a legitimate interest in making morals truths plausible within a materialist framework.

>>14269293
I wonder if posts like these are just by really moronic people or literally NPCs. Are you actually telling me your best conception of reality is one of eternal and endless pleasure, not only this but you actively BLAME god for it being anything but a limitless supply of orgasmic pleasure? Do you even have the necessary brainpower to conceptualise such an existence? Because it’s literally ridiculous, nothing would have any purpose, there would be no stakes, reality would become an incoherent mess. Virtually every philosophical school for millennia has understand the principle of meaning through contrast.

>>14269604
Try words. I'm not getting that image.

>>14269540
>If your argument is god doesn’t exist because that would be like totally mean

It’s not. An evil or uncaring deity is actually more plausible than a benevolent one because suffering exists, so suggesting a wicked God is actually a form of steelmanning to me.

> You have to refute free will.

You really don’t. Whoever claims free will exists has to prove it exists, or it can be tossed out with the boogeymen and the leprechauns and God himself. What even IS free will to you? Where is the room for it in physics?

> The point is the argument the atheist was making was incoherent and stupid

It would be incoherent and stupid if it’s meant to disprove a God, but it isn’t. God or the Gods could conceivably be evil, uncaring, or unable to help us. If God/the gods are capable of helping us but they don’t, why ought we worship them?

I believe that God is a rational, vastly intelligent being that imagines and simulates universes in his mind, which unfold according to the laws of physics. Our universe exists within the mind of God but God’s mind is not limited to the universe, in other words there further mental states of God in which his values and rationality inhere. This is panentheism.

Aesthetic and moral truths exist as subjective yet universal values in the mind of God. However, they are beyond the comprehension of our evolved primate mind—they are transcendent truths.

Guys, better clear out the thread. Wojack spammers have declared we aren't from /lit/ even though anyone that's been here more than a couple years knows they are outing themselves as new. Also we've been btfo by intellectuals that have called us psueds that can't even form a coherent opinion or even reference anything remotely /lit/ besides a 2017 meme. Truly we have been exposed as migrants from the original inhabitants of this board.

>>14269617
>>14269548

>>14269613
NOBODY GIVES A SHIT
CLEAR NOW?

>>14269088
Not your blog frogger

OOO MASSA

>>14269627
Not really. Could you whip up a Power Point for me?

>>14269640
>>14269624
TRIGGERED MUCH?

>>14269161>>14269169>>14269170>>14269171>>14269173>>14269177>>14269180>>14269184>>14269186>>14269187>>14269189
>>14269191>>14269192>>14269198>>14269200>>14269204>>14269208>>14269209>>14269210>>14269212>>14269213>>14269222
>>14269224>>14269225>>14269226>>14269232>>14269233>>14269234>>14269235>>14269236>>14269239>>14269240>>14269241>>14269242>>14269243>>14269245>>14269249>>14269251>>14269252>>14269254>>14269256>>14269258>>14269259>>14269266>>14269268>>14269270>>14269273>>14269278>>14269279>>14269280>>14269281>>14269282>>14269283>>14269284>>14269287
>>14269293>>14269297>>14269302>>14269303>>14269304>>14269310>>14269311>>14269313>>14269314>>14269319>>14269321
>>14269323>>14269329>>14269330>>14269330>>14269331>>14269342>>14269343>>14269344>>14269347>>14269348>>14269353
>>14269356
>>14269365
>>14269366
>>14269368
>>14269372
>>14269375
>>14269376
>>14269377
>>14269378
>>14269380
>>14269385
>>14269390
>>14269391
>>14269395
>>14269396
>>14269400
>>14269405
>>14269406
>>14269407
>>14269411
>>14269414
>>14269417
>>14269426
>>14269428
>>14269430
>>14269435
>>14269442
>>14269453
>>14269455
>>14269456
>>14269463
>>14269464
>>14269465
>>14269466
>>14269470
>>14269476
>>14269478
>>14269487
>>14269488
>>14269489
>>14269495
>>14269496
>>14269499
>>14269500
>>14269504
>>14269506
>>14269510
>>14269515
>>14269516
>>14269519
>>14269523
>>14269526
>>14269529
>>14269532
>>14269540
>>14269543
>>14269546
>>14269547
>>14269548
>>14269552
>>14269553
>>14269558
>>14269566
>>14269567
>>14269568
>>14269570
>>14269572
>>14269573
>>14269575
>>14269576
>>14269577
>>14269579
>>14269580
>>14269586
>>14269588
>>14269591
>>14269597
>>14269601
>>14269603
>>14269604
>>14269607
>>14269613
>>14269614
>>14269617

>>14269627
I see now that G-d isn't real.

>>14269607
>Are you actually telling me your best conception of reality is one of eternal and endless pleasure

In some form or another, yes.

> not only this but you actively BLAME god for it being anything but a limitless supply of orgasmic pleasure?

I don’t think God is real so I wouldn’t blame him for it.

> Do you even have the necessary brainpower to conceptualise such an existence?

No, because I’m an ape living in a world in which there are no gods, and suffering and pleasure are mere tools of natural selection.

> nothing would have any purpose

Why ought I give a single fuck if nothing would have “purpose”? I don’t believe purpose exists right now for anything except shit like doorknobs and light switches, so who cares?

> there would be no stakes

Why ought I care that there would be no stakes?

> reality would become an incoherent mess.

Why ought I care? It sounds quite fun.

> Virtually every philosophical school for millennia has understand the principle of meaning through contrast.

There is no meaning. Lol

>>14269647
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHH so good

I was arguing with my mom the other day about jesus. I know I shouldn't even try to reason with women because they always appeal to emotion instead of reason. I was explaining to her how the story of Jesus Christ is a story of love and sacrifice and how even Atheists should appreciate it and learn from it. You know what she said? "God doesn't exist so I don't care. You can't learn anything about people from a made up story." I asked her how Christianity is any different from the "Nature spirits" she believes in as neither of them can be proven by scientific inquiry. She just ignored that and went on talking about pedophilia in the Catholic church and she doesn't want anything to do with that. I said to her "So if one Christian rapes a child this makes the entire religion pointless? The Nazi's took Nietsche's philosophy and justified their own actions with it. Does this make it a bad philosophy?" She ignored this. My sister brings up "If God is so good then why did he punish Adam and Eve for one small thing?" I explained to her how they basically spat in God's face after he gave them paradises but she just ignore me.

I give up lol, it's a waste of time trying to talk sense into them. Reminder that people like this vote.

>>14269653
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHH

>>14269661
Hey I sucked your mom's pussy last night

>>14269661
> I explained to her how they basically spat in God's face after he gave them paradises but she just ignore me.

Blaming the baby for sticking the fork in the electrical socket and not the person who owns the baby, the electrical socket, and/or the knife.

>>14269672

>>14269672
That's a retarded argument. Do you see yourself as a baby? Well perhaps you are because you refuse to take responsibility for your own actions.

>>14269580
The suffering of the foetus is vastly diminished compared to a grown human, yes this point is absolutely self evident, however the right to life of a foetus is not contingent on how little it suffers, right to life is inalienable for precisely that reason. The fact you think the two scenarios are analogous and you thought this was a real “gotcha” moment is frankly embarrassing.

>>14269682
>>14269683
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG

>>14269682
>That's a retarded argument. Do you see yourself as a baby?

Humans are babies in comparison to, say, an all-powerful eternal all-knowing creator of the universe.
God could have just put the tree somewhere else, or made sure magical talking snakes can’t climb into the garden. The story is obviously a parable.

>>14269088>>14269105>>14269108>>14269107>>14269115>>14269116>>14269117>>14269121>>14269124>>14269125>>14269128>>14269132>>14269134>>14269138>>14269144>>14269146>>14269151>>14269157>>14269158>>14269161>>14269169>>14269171>>14269180
>>14269184>>14269186>>14269187>>14269189>>14269191>>14269192>>14269198>>14269200>>14269204>>14269208>>14269209>>14269210>>14269212>>14269213>>14269222>>14269224>>14269225>>14269226>>14269232>>14269233>>14269234>>14269235>>14269236
>>14269239>>14269240>>14269241>>14269242>>14269243>>14269245>>14269249>>14269251>>14269252>>14269254>>14269256>>14269258>>14269259>>14269266>>14269268>>14269270>>14269273>>14269278>>14269279>>14269280>>14269281>>14269282>>14269283
>>14269284>>14269287>>14269293>>14269297>>14269302>>14269303>>14269304>>14269310>>14269311>>14269313>>14269314>>14269319>>14269321>>14269323>>14269329>>14269329>>14269330>>14269331>>14269342>>14269343>>14269344>>14269347>>14269348>>14269353>>14269356>>14269365>>14269366>>14269368>>14269372>>14269375>>14269376>>14269377>>14269378>>14269380>>14269380>>14269385>>14269390>>14269391>>14269395>>14269396>>14269396>>14269400>>14269405>>14269406>>14269407>>14269411>>14269414>>14269417>>14269428>>14269430>>14269435>>14269442>>14269453>>14269455>>14269456>>14269463>>14269464>>14269465>>14269466>>14269470>>14269476>>14269478>>14269487>>14269488>>14269489>>14269495>>14269496>>14269499>>14269500>>14269504>>14269506>>14269510>>14269515>>14269516>>14269519>>14269523>>14269526>>14269529>>14269540>>14269543>>14269546>>14269547>>14269548>>14269552>>14269553>>14269558>>14269566>>14269567>>14269568>>14269570>>14269572>>14269573>>14269575>>14269576>>14269577>>14269579>>14269580>>14269586>>14269588>>14269591>>14269597>>14269601>>14269603>>14269604>>14269607>>14269613>>14269614>>14269617>>14269623>>14269624>>14269625>>14269627>>14269625>>14269627>>14269633>>14269634>>14269640>>14269644>>14269646>>14269647>>14269653>>14269659>>14269661>>14269663>>14269670>>14269672>>14269680>>14269682>>14269683>>14269108

>Why no i dont believe in God how could you tell