/lit/ - Literature

there are only a few things id rather have now than faith in god but unfortunately its still just not there

No. No evidence.

No. Never seen a convincing argument.

>>14202149
Me too fren

>>14202146
Yes, it doesn't seem possible for God not to exist.

>>14202146
Yes. God is an adolescent girl and she's enamoured of me, the evidence is that I'm very pretty.

>>14202146
Yes. He is more real than I am

Thats a complicated question; it depends on what you mean by 'God'

>>14202146
Yes never seen a convincing argument otherwise

>>14202146
That is such a stupid question. Don't ask people whether they believe in God, ask them how they define God.

>>14202199
See, this guy gets it.

>>14202236
And this guy.

Based on the current evidence of the existence of God, or the lack thereof, it's inconclusive whether or not a God exists or not. There are no experiments which can be repeated and peer reviewed to support the existence of God over there being no God.
In the context of God from the Abrahamic religions, there is no scientific basis on which to believe that God is currently present based on that no direct contact has been made in modern scientific society, as well as other factors.
However, if you choose to disregard the scientific method by which our current society studies the nature of our universe, then you could be inclined to believe that there is a God, even an Abrahamic one or any other pagan Gods.
Another scenario is the observer creator scenario in which God simply does not interact with out world. In this case, there is no way to prove either his existence or non-existence hence it doesn't matter either way.
A common but interesting point though is that if the chance of God existing and not are equal, it's better off not risking suffering eternally in Hell for being a blasphemer.
However, no matter which religion you choose to follow, there is an equal risk of being a blasphemer of the real God so this does not matter either.

>>14202245
>God
What is God, fucker? What the hell is that? What does that even mean?

>>14202352
There are many descriptions ascribed to different Gods. For example, the Abrahamic God is described as an omnipotent and omniscient creator of the universe and it's inhabitants. There are other details such as human ancestry, enforced morality, etc.

Everything is a part of God

Read the bible when I was a kid, there was like a kid's version, with pictures and shit. I thought it sounded stupid so I didn't believe it.

Yes, because of a revelatory experience. On this very board in fact. And now, reading the Bible has explained my experience, and I believe this is the only way one can come to faith in God. You can't believe in God by your own power or strength, it's something he gives you, by his choice. It's unilateral. I never chose this.

Anyone giving you "reasons" for God as if they will be able to persuade you to believe in him is full of shit, the best that can do is pull down concepts in our head that may be blocking the way. But even after all false ideas (I.e. lies and deceptions) are brought down and the human mind stands naked and bare, he stills need the unilateral movements of God to clothe him anew

>>14202193

Exactly, if God didn't exist then he wouldn't be God.

>>14202571
>Yes, because of a revelatory experience.
Prelest

>>14202146
Everyone believes in God, knows he exists. They're just lying to themselves because of their fallen nature.

Yes, rational proof of Aristotle since I actually took the time to read rather than shitpost on 4chan like an ignorant teenager for once.

>>14202146
No, there is no reason to, all will go as it goes with or without God.

>>14202193
>>14202571
>>14202593
>>14202606
Cringe.

>>14202146
Yes I do believe in god. Yet I'm not religious. I'm a realist. The bearded guy doesn't exist though, his imagine is used to gain wealth and power. God is a woman, not a man. Can I prove this? No. You need to experience it yourself. But they don't call the nature by the name of 'Mother Nature' for no apparent reason.

>>14202352
"God" is the ground of being. There is no God as we modern day humans perceive it.

>>14202447
This is true.

>>14202633
Teenage response.

>>14202633
Hell's eternal, you know.

>>14202146

NOBODY HERE BELIEVES, FOR IF THEY DID, THEY WOULD BE LIVING A DIFFERENT SORT OF LIFE. HOW CAN I SAY I BELIEVE IN GOD, WHEN MY ACTIONS EXPRESS A DISBELIEF IN GOD?

>>14202700
The Caps Lock key is under Tab and above Shift on the left side of your keyboard.

>>14202245
Okay, but do you believe in a god or not?
Believing =/= knowing

There never was a god and there never will be a god. At least not in the biblical sense. Perhaps there is a god in a more metaphysical philosophical sense, such as the Spinozist infinite substance.

Pantheism makes sense to me, in that mind and consciousness may be fundamental to the universe. God then is the collective consciousness of the universe, a panpsychical self-causing natural essence.

>>14202586

>Apostle Paul was under prelest
>Mary was under prelest
>Thousands of saints throughout history were under prelest
>Most of the people if God I know are under prelest
>Only I am lucid and sober and without delusion

Bra you ain't even born again

>>14202146
I'm certain.

However I wish men didn't try to convince others of his existence. Let the fallen souls perish.

God has been invented.

It was people's need; people needed a protector. In the immensity of the universe, a man feels so alone, so small. The vastness creates trembling in him. What is your existence?

The truth is that God himself is a creation of man's imagination.

>>14202146
I believe in literature and I believe in remaining on-topic to the matters at hand.

Yea. Dunno.

>>14202913
>implying that man can not be delusional

>>14202146
The real redpill is you never even had a choice. Either you have a soul and you believe or you don’t and you do not. If you have a soul youll come to believe, if you don’t your essence will be recycled. Either outcome is nothing to be afraid of because consciousness is an illusion.

>>14202149
>there are only a few things id rather have now than faith in god
What are they?

>>14202651
>bearded guy
Opinion discarded.

>>14202237
Based illiterate

>>14202146
Kinda, I come from a Catholic background but I'm (a)gnostic. Trad Cath larping and rhetoric is getting increasingly retarded so that atheist talking points start sounding more attractive as time goes by.

I believe there are things beyond my senses, beyond rationality, beyond anything we as a species can grasp, but by definition they are unknowable to me unless something drastically changed (overman, singularity)

>>14202146

>>14202853
This. One Infinite Consciousness which makes up all of reality, experiencing it and interacting in it from every vantage, is what I classify as God. Humans are at the stage of God whereby we recognize our difference to other animals, and have a vaguely awakened sense of Divinity within us, which the purpose of spirituality is to realize. Actual spirituality, meaning meditation, moral living and self-enquiry - not just going to a brick-and-mortar institution, reading books, or "believing" in realities you've never encountered. Reaching deeper states of consciousness is the whole point of individual spirituality, for me. As long as people believe in and obey an external model of God, they will remain unawakened and society will suffer by their unawakened actions. Only when every individual consciousness in our world recognizes it's underlying unity with everything that exists will we be able to create paradise on this planet.

>>14203368
a lot of theologists would argue that while god/ultimate reality is infinitely unknowable (YHWH, brahman, Trinity), we can still pursue it as our ultimate concern (consider Paul Tillich's justification for belief)

No. Never seen any evidence. And taking God as an axiom doesn’t help explain anything else.

>>14202700
based and enlightened

>>14202146
Yes. Since God is Ineffable and human intelligence is Limited.

>>14203424
I'm not qualified to make the call, nor do I feel that God is the ultimate concern. If he wanted to be known, he would be known, but he chooses to play this game of cosmic cat and mouse. That is, if he is even aware of us, and we are not like a cell in his body or something outside his concern

1: If god doesn't exist, then secure knowledge is impossible. (Deus deceptor argument, sollipsism)
2: This we have secure knowledge about.
C: God exists.

>>14203508
>if god isn't perfect then why didn't he say so
Cope you dumb shit

>>14202657
You haven’t even proved that hell exists yet. You have a long way to go until you prove that hell is eternal.

>>14203549
Demonstrate the first premise.

>>14202352
Read this.
>inb4 im not reading that
Read it or you're a fucking pseud.
It very accurately defines God, but I'm not going to tell you what it is.

>>14203074
>The truth is that God himself is a creation of man's imagination.
>God is just chemicals in your brain bro.
>Somehow my idea that god is not real is not just chemicals in my brain and you should totally believe me bro.
Cringe.

>>14203565
>You haven’t even proved that hell exists yet
You are here, aren't you?

>>14202146
why would i

>>14202146
I believe in God, because I need God so that I can go on in this life. I have an innate desire for God to exist, as such I act as if he does, even though I have no knowledge of whether he does exist or not.
But my life would make absolutely zero sense without him, so I just roll with God and see where he takes me. I'm too much of a justicefag to let go of him anyway. In God's absence, justice is impossible, truth itself becomes worthless and rather meaningless, and really, the resulting world is really gay, and I want you to miss me with that shit.

I WANT God, and I am willing to die for it.
Cope or not, cringe or not, this is the case, and I will not be ashamed of this.

>>14202472
>when I was a child...

>>14202245
>A common but interesting point though is that if the chance of God existing and not are equal, it's better off not risking suffering eternally in Hell for being a blasphemer.
And what if we believe in the wrong god? Wouldn't believing in the wrong God piss off God more than not believing in him at all?

>>14203727
>implying that you can piss off God
lol
You don't go to hell for picking the wrong religion. You go to hell, because you are a piece of shit and you aren't even sorry about it.

>>14203739
if only the bible actually preached that instead of saying everyone who is a non believer is going to hell

Yes I believe that in essence God exists and that his wisdom will be shared to me as I search more or perhaps less.

>>14203783
citation needed

>>14203727
Very few religions are as exclusive as Christianity is. Doing good works, and perhaps believing in a god, is all you really need to get into most heavens. Even the Quran (2:62) says that there are Christians and Jews in heaven. But Jesus says, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one may come to the Father except through me.”

>>14203727
There's only One God who came down to the earth and established a relationship with man. Of you think this makes him equal to the other gods, you're misleaded

>>14203810
>Jesus says, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one may come to the Father except through me.”
>Only christians go to heaven
This is your brain on literalism.

>>14203851
>Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
>For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

>>14203851
>>14203873
>15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

>>14203809
Can I get to heaven by following all of the teachings of Jesus but not believing in God?

>>14203898
But Jesus’ first teaching is to love God.

>>14203898
If you follow the teachings of Jesus you inherently believe in God. They go hand in hand.
>>14203873
>>14203897
It's bad form to quote the Bible without exactly specifying where the quote is from.
Also
>muh literalism

>>14202146
No, because most definitions of God I've heard are shit-tier.
I feel like philosophers of the mind are the ones that have a better chance at making progress in that area.

>>14203926
Why does it matter if I provide the verse or not? I could make it up either way, and you could look them up, either way. There were no verse numbers before 1600
>muh literalism
This is the safest interpretation.

>>14203573
I refeered to common philosophical arguments that are easily googleable.

>>14202352
God is literally everything that has existed, exists now, will exist in the future and everything that has never existed.

>>14203933

What do you think about the Kena Upanishad?

>>14203074
osho living heaven life in the earth of course he don't believe god in deception of evil pleasures while you are representing him as a good servant

>>14203658
Cringe but unironically

>>14202146

I believe in God because I want to believe in God.

>>14203514
I believe that by "ultimate concern" he means this; in life man has many concerns, and between any two, one must supersede the other. Thus there must exist an "ultimate" concern, a concern which supersedes all others.

Tillich (as mentioned by >>14203424 ) argues that if a finitude (money, power, a nation, playing video games all day) is your ultimate concern, it will eventually fail you. (money and power can't stop death and pain, all empires eventually end, tfw no gf respectively). Only an infinite (ultimate reality) can be one's ultimate concern, as it will never fail you. However, it cannot be comprehended or understood, as to quantify the infinite would then make it finite, and any finite ultimate concern will fail you.

Pretty much "ultimate concern" in the infinite is just mysticism about existence. We can't quantify it, we can't put a label on our basis for reality, but believe in it and worship it. Which is pretty much what you originally said in >>14203368 . If you're interested in further reading on this mystic interpretation / understanding of reality you could check out Neo-Hasidism, Hindu theology and concept of Brahman (probably best strain would be Advaita Vendata: atman is brahman) and Paul Tillich's Protestantism (read Dynamics of Faith). A lot of faiths are experiencing some form of modernization movement, in which traditional myths and cultural practices are taken less literally and used for a far more metaphorical (and metaphysical) way of understanding and expressing existence.

I these attempts to modernize religion into the mysticism which you talked about in your first post to be idolatrous (to even attempt to point at ultimate reality is to quantify it, it is ridiculous to acknowledge that you can't know anything about god then claim to do so), but nevertheless very interesting.

Not really, I am unable to believe. I wish I could but I can't.

>>14203392
Fuck off Gaia reptilian.

>>14202245
>Based on the current evidence of the existence of God, or the lack thereof, it's inconclusive whether or not a God exists or not
Redundant. Quit reading there. Do better.

>>14202146
Yes, I believe in him, but I know he doesn't exist.

Unironically asking how y'all are not pantheistic in the current year... you guys do read books, right?

>>14203392
Luficerian child fucker detected

>>14202146
>Do you believe in God?
Yes

>Why / why not?
Ultimately, because I have to. Even if God weren't real I would still be a theist.

>>14204356
>>14204403
fuck off, samefag

>>14202245
>using science to answer metaphysics
>muh many religious faiths
Reddit tier post

>>14202146
I believe God killed himself, and the universe is his rotting corpse

>>14202236
Frittata

>>14204430
>muh reddit
>>>/b/

>>14204075
Not familiar with it, sadly. Do you know of a good book to get started or supplement its reading?

>>14202146
Yeah I believe in God. I just take it on faith. I'm aware of numerous arguments against God and problems with the existence of God.

>>14204601
As long as you understand at the most basic level what brahman is trying to describe I would just read it it's super short and not one of the more difficult ones.
2nd part leaves the philosophical debate to tell some mythological story, it talks about a few vedic gods but nothing that you really need to know about.

>>14202146
Yes. It's intuitive, if everything has to come from somewhere there must be a source that transcends logic.

>>14204417
Burn in hell.

after reading a minimal amount of Aquinas, people online who spout their retarded hippy ideas about God are just incredibly cringe to me, and it makes me wonder why i even post here. every time i read a post saying some shit like "God is just the universe experiencing itself, bro" or the like, i wish i could just bash the nerd who said it. give them a nipple-twister or dunk their head in a toilet. ITS SO FUCKING CRINGE

I used to think that there was no way there could exist a God, and I still have it with the existentialist in regards to that question, but the more I think about it, the more I start to think that denying pantheism atleast is a sort of blind certainty which is dangerous as it is fed by the zeitgeist and alleged rationality. I remain a clueless agnostic, yet the question of God fascinates me like a child again.

>>14204692
The translation by radhakrishnan is good too. My favorite for a beginner to the strange wording of sanskrit to english

>>14204713
In fairness I see you posting this image all over this board and the posts you make are far far worse

I think so. My belief came from my desire to be free in a weird way. I didn’t want to be accountable to society or those in power I deemed morally wrong, so the only legitimate power became what I thought was right. Either I’m a lunatic or my sense of good is coming from the only legitimate authority, god.

>>14204713
What do you believe in, Bro?

>>14204710
Your life is already hell, larper.

>>14204740
>my sense of good is coming from the only legitimate authority, god.
It's a well known line of thought, CS Lewis talks about it.
Pretty sure I believe in God, it makes more sense to me than any other explanation

>>14203711
that's when these things are decided, everything after is just cope and backwards reasoning

>>14204729
no.

>>14204824
yes.

>>14204844
no.

>>14204864
Oh god it's worse than I even knew
>>/lit/?task=search2&ghost=&search_text=&search_subject=&search_username=&search_tripcode=&search_email=&search_filename=1531715866916.jpg&search_datefrom=&search_dateto=&search_op=all&search_del=dontcare&search_int=dontcare&search_ord=new&search_capcode=all&search_res=post

>>14204692
>>14204724
I'll check it out. Thank you anon(s)

>>14204885
So... this is traditionalism... powerful

>>14204779
Just like your eternity, demon.

>>14204885

>>14202146
I do. Not because I needed proof, but because I needed God.

>>14205136

>>14203709
By the time my turn comes those angels will have seen a hundred times worse. If God grades on a curve I'm in like Flynn.

Sadlly He doesn't.

>>14202146
Yes, because infinite regress seems retarded.

>>14205468
God's presence doesn't solve that problem. You have to accept it an imponderable either way.
This isn't an argument for atheism or anything.

>>14205497
I'm saying that since infinite regress doesn't make sense, there should be an uncaused case.

>>14205461
just be reconciled with God and He will forget your sins. (i think?)

>>14203709

Word

>>14204447

This is closer to the truth than you think

>>14204722

God loves you my friend and wants to welcome you to his way of life. Enjoy the journey

I've tried reading the bible and it's honestly uninteresting hogwash for indoctrinated retards. God manages to contradict himself countless times in a single book. The whole OT can be summed up as:

>HURRRRRRR THIS TRIBE OF JEWS HATE GOD
>GRUG GOD NOW SEND PUNISHMENT
>GRUG GOD SEE THAT JEWS LOVE GOD NOW AND HE NO MORE PUNISH JEWS
>HURRRRRRRRR JEWS DONT LOVE GOD NO MORE GRUG GOD SEND PUNISHMENT AGAIN
rise and repeat, it's not even entertaining, you have to be a subhuman to enjoy it

>>14202146
For me, the most convincing argument for God's existence is the classical Problem of Evil.
1. If God does not exist, objective moral values do not exist.
2. Evil exists.
3. Therefore objective moral values do exist.
4. Therefore God exists.

>>14205715
This is flawed even from a deductive point of view though. You haven't defined 'evil', or concluded that it has a universal definition. It could as much be 'Square' or 'blue'.

>>14205745
Then there is no good or evil?

>>14203355
a stable and healthy homogeneous civilization for my people where they can be successful and happy without destroying themselves

ok i guess its just one thing

>>14205762
Who are your people?

>>14202236
based, /thread

>>14205756
There is good and evil as there is the words "big" and "small". They are relative, people use them to categorize things and do it differently. They are adjectives.
Also just because you can trace something that is universal doesnt make it objective. If every one agreed that classical music is the best genre that wouldnt make it a objective quality.

>>14205831
This is pretty correct. In the Tao Te Ching, Lao Tsu makes a clear point that 'good' and 'bad' are just words we use to describe things we like or don't like. The idea that those things are intrinsic is nice, but even if you boil it down to stuff like 'poop smells bad', you can't make that an objectively or empirically correct sentence. Bad too whom? Bad in what way? What type of poop? Etc. etc.

It's mostly just an exaggeration of the fact that language is an imprecise tool, and that communication is just an attempt to reach complacency between different viewpoints. Idk.

>>14205715
>If God does not exist, objective moral values do not exist.
Prove this. This is the only one of your four points that matter given none of the other three illuminate or justify this conclusion.
You've only stated that without God there can be no objective moral values. This is not an argument, this is a conclusion. The rest of your post is literally meaningless.

>>14204713
>be Aquinas
>demonstrate that a concept is plausible, pretend I’ve proven it
>call that concept God
>pretend I’ve proven the existence of my specific god
I guess if you’re stupid enough to fall for this it makes sense that you can’t into pantheism

>>14205837
>t. moral relativist

>>14205847
The existence of God is the basis for the claim of objective truth or objective good. How could objective good exist without God? Without simply accepting on faith that these things exist independently and without a cause, you're left with moral relativism and subjective truth.

>>14205871
Could you please define 'objective truth' or 'objective good', for the purpose of continuing this discussion?

>>14204713
Cringe on heathen.

>>14205876
Anon, its of no use. You will spend hours in this thread if you go down that rabbit hole. Make better use of that time.

>>14205876
How can you define such things? You know what I mean when I say them.

>>14205895
I mean, I literally don't. That's a pretty clumsy hand-wave, friend. You can't assume that just because the words look the same on my screen that they mean the same thing. If you wanna continue the discussion, you could try to define your terms. Otherwise, you may have to admit that you don't fully know what you're talking about.

>>14205876
Objective: not dependent on the mind for existence; actual.

Objective truth and objective good exist independently of our personal opinions or acceptance of them. They are real whether I believe them to be so or not, as opposed to subjective truth or subjective good, which would be "dependent on the mind or on an individual's perception for its existence."

>>14205895
>How can you define such things? You know what I mean when I say them.
So you literally don't know what you mean, then. If you did, you would be able to define it, and by saying that we "know what you mean", you have proven that it is definable. Stop larping, psued.

>>14205906
That's a pretty big assertion. Could you please give me an example of something that is objectively good and something that is objectively true?

>>14205921
>>14205902
Lmao literally falling for some ironic Anon posting bait.
>>14205895 was a different poster

>>14205929
>That's a pretty big assertion.
No it's not, that's the dictionary definition of objectivity.

>>14205932
>he actually tries to keep track of posters
dilate

>>14205940
A) Which dictionary, in what context, etc.

B) this bit, not the other bit:
>Objective truth and objective good exist independently of our personal opinions or acceptance of them. They are real whether I believe them to be so or not, as opposed to subjective truth or subjective good, which would be "dependent on the mind or on an individual's perception for its existence."

>>14205940
Please don't evade the question, and provide anon an example of objective good and objective truth

>>14205945
I actually know that was a different poster because I didn't post it, you universal genius

>>14205962
Objective genius*

>>14205958
>define objective truth
>the dictionary definition isn't good enough
>>14205961
This is a silly question. It's like asking "Prove to me that facts exist". If you don't believe in facts, what will be the point in providing you with an example of a fact?

>>14205985
He is asking you to provide examples and you are refusing to do so.

>>14205940
Everybody ITT, including you, knows that anon was not referring to the dictionary definition, but to what you said after it.
I hope you're baiting. The concept of your mind hurts my head.

>>14202236
Dare i say define “god” op

>>14206015
It should be entirely obvious to everyone that objective truth exists, but since you seem to not be aware of that already, how about:
>Reality exists
>The universe exists
>Gravity exists

>>14206042
The second part was literally an explanation of the definition provided.

>>14206042
Yes. I had a discussion with him a few days ago and he was equally obtuse to reasoning beyond "nazis are bad". I think he's a very subtle, very skilled troll. The trick is in the argumentation.

>>14206092
Were you that guy who couldn't say in less than 1000 words that you were just a basic cultural relativist?

>>14206059
Are these objective good or objective truth?

>>14206112
They are facts that are objectively true. Are you actually arguing that facts only exist subjectively? Do you actually believe that the universe ceases to exist when you die? Do you think you live in a computer simulation or something? I'm legitimately trying to figure out how you don't understand something this basic.

>>14206103
Great pity to the anon that comes to the literature board and is woeful about having to read 3000 words about one of the most hotly contested philosophical ideas in all of history.

>>14206149
>Reality exists
>one of the most hotly contested philosophical ideas in all of history
PLEASE tell me you're trolling

There are so many definitions of God you're going to have to be specific. e.g. "creator of the universe and that's it", or "creator, communicator, and commander to humans through prophets etc". I've noticed that religious people in arguments like to employ the vague background distant definition when it suits them, even though their faith assumes specific ass instructions from their god.

I personally don't worship or assume there to be a god. The universe must have a creator? Why is that, if god doesn't require one? Maybe the universe is this "god" people love to worship.

>>14202146
Yes. Because [S[h]]e commanded me to.

>>14202700
Arrogance. Only the Lord knows why we are here.

Peace and guidance to you sibling.

This thread was moved to >>>/b/814504030