/lit/ - Literature

>>14188672
The Secret Kirkbirde Files.........but good luck getting a hand on them. They were last seen duing a huge drug binge in the mountains of Kazakhstan...

>>14188686
They practically don't even exist, besides occasionally Bethesda will go back to his lore to get some stuff but mostly it's just Todd writing it all now, hell he was writing it with Kirkbride in the beginning anyway. Refer to >>14184368

I hope you're happy for scarring the rest of this thread with that horrible image.

>>14188672
We're talking about in-game books, right?
Thief, by Reven

>>14188746
Who gives a fuck, it's just an excuse for the thread.

How does it feel to know that the creator of TES, Kirkbride, has stated that the Thalmor are the greatest thread to Nirn and will succeed in the end?

>>14188808
*threat

roll

roll, give me the 88 baby

come on, I can do it.

I bet TES VI will be shit. I'm glad I stopped playing video games, and also glad I had the immense privilege of playing hundreds of hours of Morrowind as a kid. Maybe it set me on the path to who I am today—!

>>14188843
What, reading all those words in Morrowind that is?

>>14188845
It definitely put me in the orbit of /lit/ subjects: Dune, Jung, Borges, Burroughs, Jodorowksy. And from there are started reading real books.

>>14188860
*I

>>14188860
I see, well have you played Oblivion and Skyrim also?

>>14188887
Yeah, and ESO, definite decline.

>>14188900
ok boomer

>>14188904
Imagine valuing Skyrim

>>14188909
>imagine valuing nigger elves over nords

>>14188909
>>14188911
>*a cursed race of nigger elves
mind you.

>polygon
https://www.polygon.com/videos/2018/10/28/18029914/reading-all-books-in-skyrim

>>14188808
>creator of TES
No. His legendary status is deserved; Kirkbride and his work are great. But let's not get carried away.

>>14188672
I'm afraid you're too late, childe. All of the scholarly work on the Elder Scrolls mythos was completed years ago. Most of the good discussions were had more than a decade ago.

>inb4 but what about ESO
A multiplayer service for dopamine addicts. Lore-wise, it is failed attempt that is so far removed from the Tamriel of the present it can be safely ignored. This was the intention all along.

>inb4 what about C0DA
Precisely. We won. And now we don't have to talk about TES anymore because the real call to adventure has been shouted.

>>14188969
>No. His legendary status is deserved; Kirkbride and his work are great. But let's not get carried away.
That's what I've been saying throughout the entire thread, I just shortened the post into calling him the creator because it's easier.

>I'm afraid you're too late, childe. All of the scholarly work on the Elder Scrolls mythos was completed years ago. Most of the good discussions were had more than a decade ago.
I'm aware that the real core of it was done then, but a lot of the esoteric mystery's still remain. Not to mention that a bunch of the core stuff is still unanswered also.

>A multiplayer service for dopamine addicts. Lore-wise, it is failed attempt that is so far removed from the Tamriel of the present it can be safely ignored. This was the intention all along.
Agreed, though it still has that annoying sticker of "lore" attached to it, something I hope wont find its way into TES 6.

>Precisely. We won. And now we don't have to talk about TES anymore because the real call to adventure has been shouted.
I'm just finding out about C0DA now, could I get a quick rundown?

>>14189005
>could I get a quick rundown?
Read it yourself. It's only 64 pages.

qrd: the same wonder felt by people who love Elder Scrolls lore deserves to exist in all works, and it is up to you to make that beauty manifest.

and nah bruh pretty much all of the big mysteries are solved, minus a few tidbits here and there like the Yokudan memorystones (which are really just varla stones from another universe)

>>14189008
I read a bit but I still don't understand.

>>14189011
Oh yeah? Well then are there any other Gods than the trinity of Magnus, Lorkhan and Akatosh?

>>14189016
>Oh yeah? Well then are there any other Gods than the trinity of Magnus, Lorkhan and Akatosh?
Herma Mora. Perhaps you've heard of meeee?

The gods are not God, they're spirits. They'll lie and say they are eternal but they are not. The divines, at least, reflect the perfection of the one ineffable God. This is why we don't see them often. Think about it. The daedra are worldly, low deities of the senses. They're bigger than demons and angels, but they depend on Tamriel. For example, the big bad Mehrunes Dagon is equal parts Surtr and Joker. He's immanent in the world, especially in the subtler form of change, and that makes him contingent upon it. So it is with all of them.

The one big mystery that remained was solved in Skyrim's vampire dlc. Trinimac, who became Malacath. The details of his transformation and penultimate missing person, in the manner of Wulf/Wulfharth. The underking bit. It was just an echo of the original pattern which you have already named.

matter of fact, go read The Loveletter again

think on love. the eight divines are an attempt at capturing something greater than Tamriel. the ninth is an unstable mutant, and the means of entering the dream. there is a God.

>>14189045
>Herma Mora. Perhaps you've heard of meeee?
But isn't he just simply another "aspect" of those said three, like the jumpy frog is of Magnus?

From my understanding Talos is the transcending of them, as them and by them. He subsumes them yet remains separate.

>>14189054
What?

>>14189071
The Loveletter. THE LOVELETTER.

And also go read How Beautiful You Are That Do Not Join Us, kirkbride's blessing when the game shipped. The whole thing, the ENTIRE thing, all of it, all the lore, is about something very simple. Love, and beauty, and surrendering to that creative madness. Filling that Sheogorath-shaped hole. It's a bitter mercy. Imperfect subcreation.

>From my understanding Talos is the transcending of them, as them and by them. He subsumes them yet remains separate.
Yup. The means of entering the dream.

>>14189066
>But isn't he just simply another "aspect" of those said three, like the jumpy frog is of Magnus?
Yeah.

Nirn and the Aurbis and all of its gods and lesser beings is an amnesiac schizophrenic Being. You've heard it before: Akatosh is insane.

>>14189085
>The whole thing, the ENTIRE thing, all of it, all the lore, is about something very simple. Love, and beauty, and surrendering to that creative madness. Filling that Sheogorath-shaped hole. It's a bitter mercy. Imperfect subcreation.
Okay I can understand this, I've had similar thoughts for a long time in regards obviously presented in such a fragile way, only joined by the magical force of Magnus. Contradictory ideas.

Which leads me to a question about our existence, does reality make sense in some sort of Pythagorean, Platonic Augustinian understanding of it? Or is it completely nonsensical and there can be no explanation given of it and it's contradictory ideas and so just is?

>>14189108
>Which leads me to a question about our existence, does reality make sense in some sort of Pythagorean, Platonic Augustinian understanding of it? Or is it completely nonsensical and there can be no explanation given of it and it's contradictory ideas and so just is?
Now we're no longer talking about Elder Scrolls. See what I mean about C0DA. :^)

And the answer depends on which myths you choose to believe. Life can be meaningless if you want it to be. Or not.

>>14189101
But why just simply Aurbis? Why not the entirety of existence considering the contradictory forces of Anu and Padame? Do you mean in the way that we understand the "outer" of Aurbis just simply as the potential for seeing the current complexity of its own existence? In the way that Anu, and Padame, and all that may very well exist but they and everything we consider outside of Aurbis is really just the meta-self comprehension of Aurbis to understand itself? And Talos being the one shining light of order beyond all this? Though at the same time asserting it, which can only be go to the meta and back/beyond for a certified definite experience of logos.

But if the beyond Aurbis exists for that reason/as that, what is the point of the Godhead? As was that concept not supposed to be the meta-self comprehension and thereby understanding assertion of Aurbis, while now I am saying it is instead everything beyond the Aurbis where in the Godhead would state it is everything within himself including Artherius? I think both my idea and the previous one work hand in hand, only a technically me believe.

And paradoxical "contradictory" ideas are all over the place. In Tamriel and on Earth. It's the fault of a mortal defect, our inability to accurately estimate the will of God. And therefore our incompetence to pass judgment on the same: i.e., what happens to us. The problem of evil, but also meaning in general.

>>14189124
>Now we're no longer talking about Elder Scrolls. See what I mean about C0DA. :^)
Yea, I kinda do now.

>And the answer depends on which myths you choose to believe. Life can be meaningless if you want it to be. Or not.
True anon, but I don't think that disagrees with some certifiable truth. Lets say life is 100% meaningful, I don't think that necessarily negates the suffering and experiences of those who felt it was not as simply an "illusion", more so being a man being disjointed from his own being. And so encapsulating both as a truth of experience.

>>14189127
>And Talos being the one shining light of order beyond all this?
Talos is just a great boy, not unique or perfect himself. He's an example we are to learn from, meaning he had some deficiencies to begin with. Here's an alternate example of the same idea:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4K18E1er2s

>But why just simply Aurbis? Why not the entirety of existence
It is, I fear, a dangerous and faulty argument to make assumptions about all of being from a human subcreation. There are lessons here about myth and storytelling, but not necessarily about truth. It merely gestures towards them, it is not them itself.

>>14189131
The ideal that Kirkbride was talking about in The Loveletter, the ideal reflected in the divines, and the cautionary tale of Vivec who is loved under his will only (and not freely) is what you're looking for. Pic related.

just went to go re-read the loveletter myself. kirkbride says all of this in the title.

>Loveletter From the Fifth Era, The True Purpose of Tamriel

>>14189152
>Talos is just a great boy, not unique or perfect himself. He's an example we are to learn from, meaning he had some deficiencies to begin with. Here's an alternate example of the same idea:
I've never really been a fan of Joseph Campbell, don't get me wrong he's written some great stuff but I do find he sometimes goes off a little too far. Interesting story though, very interesting. Though I probably wouldn't see Talos in the same vain sort of light.

>It is, I fear, a dangerous and faulty argument to make assumptions about all of being from a human subcreation. There are lessons here about myth and storytelling, but not necessarily about truth. It merely gestures towards them, it is not them itself.
But if these myths and story telling are lessons to humans then you are making the judgement that the all of being as understood from those myths literally are false or true. And so you find an assumption, and we cannot make assumptions beyond our own nature and so it is constrained our own human, individual nature. And so we must assume both realistically, as well as meaningfully, and both of these can only go hand in hand for one acts as the other but they are not the same, they are not the same. And this must be understood.

>The ideal that Kirkbride was talking about in The Loveletter, the ideal reflected in the divines, and the cautionary tale of Vivec who is loved under his will only (and not freely) is what you're looking for. Pic related.
Isn't Vivec a homosexual though that had sex with pretty much Satan for knowledge? I know his androgynous and its symbolic yet without the traditional religious authenticity of the symbol and so must be understood much more rationally and aesthetically, I still think it matters.

>>14189162
Interesting, will read. can I get a link?

>>14189292
https://www.imperial-library.info/content/loveletter-fifth-era-true-purpose-tamriel

>>14189288
>Molag Bal
>satan
lel

It was a transaction. Sex work IS work. And love "under his will" is a reference to Kirkbride's writing in the Sermons (I believe), likely cribbed from Crowley anyway. Meaning Vivec held Lie Rock over the people's heads, frozen in time, forcing them to love him or be destroyed. It was a hostage situation that went on so long the people forgot and never questioned it. Pretty much the same thing gnostics say about our relationship with God. Which is not surprising given that it's MK doing the writing. My point was it was an imperfect love. Vivec is that which "must be removed." He's a teacher, but he teaches you by showing you how not to be. It's one of those gestures toward the truth I mentioned, not the truth itself.

Not sure what you mean about myths being true or false. Myths don't need to be proved. They're expressions of the divine, they reveal to us what cannot be told directly.

>>14189337
>https://www.imperial-library.info/content/loveletter-fifth-era-true-purpose-tamriel
Cheers.

>>Molag Bal
>>satan
>lel
Implying he doesn't take on the same essentially human form.

>Not sure what you mean about myths being true or false. Myths don't need to be proved. They're expressions of the divine, they reveal to us what cannot be told directly.
In response to your response to my response stating Artherius to be the meta-self understanding of Mundus(or you know the physical plane).

>>14189404
>Implying he doesn't take on the same essentially human form.
I didn't mean to be dismissive, but it's a funny comparison. Molag Bal and Vivec were near equals. The Pomegranate Banquet was a wedding reception, if I recall correctly. Satan is corrupted Hebrew for "accuser." An antagonist figure, represented in myth as a spirit that is rebellious yet subservient to God. How does one rebel against omnipotence? You don't. Satan is a tester/trickster that "cuts men into better shapes" as Vivec would say. Where the presence of Christ unites mankind, Satan is "the prince of this world," the spirit that inspires moments of discord. A manifestation and symbol of the consequence of the fall on man's nature. Molag Bal is the king of rape and representative of domination, and yeah that's a pretty bad dude but Satan is actually a very specific figure and they can't be compared. Unless you're talking about the popular notion of "the devil" as a guy with a pitchfork who will entice you into an eternal bargain. Which is, I think, probably partly responsible for inspiring Vivec's episode with Bal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYsnRc09csQ

>In response to your response to my response stating Artherius to be the meta-self understanding of Mundus(or you know the physical plane).
Fair enough.

>>14189475
>I didn't mean to be dismissive, but it's a funny comparison. Molag Bal and Vivec were near equals.
That's right, I forgot Vivec was a God. And I meant in the way that they are both the closest figures to each other. Just because Bal is of rape and dominion, and Satan of the world and all evils, does not mean they are as far apart as you think. Really just slight differences for the spirit of their character. And thanks for the negro music.

>Fair enough.
But what really "is"?

pic related

Mandatory Ash Zombie Pepe.

>>14188672
Allow me

http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1112211-how-to-become-a-lore-buff/

https://fallingawkwardly.wordpress.com/2010/08/29/the-metaphysics-of-morrowind-part-1/

https://www.newwhirlingschool.com/

>read TES wiki
>great lore, in depth writing
>play TES game
>it's fucking skyrim

Whyyyy

>>14190070
I agree Skyrim did do away with a lot of the more esoteric and traditionally "TES" lore and feeling but it's still all there, just in a different way. And so V is still a masterpiece just in more the base story and experience of it rather than the little nooks and crannies, the details.

If you want to feel very Kirkbridian then Morrowind is the closest.

I wonder if there'll ever be a TES series remake where it's more true to the more Fantasy-sci-fi mix. As much as I love the Todd Howard series(probably more than the pure Kirkbride world), it would be amazing to see Kirkbrides in game as it was. Would be very uncanny.

>>14189744
>But what really "is"?
That which we call intelligible.

>>14190462
But do we not claim many things to be unintelligible whereby also state their existence? Or does the knowing existence of something stand as a level of intelligibility if extremely small? And are you to tell me there is not the totally unintelligible to the human mind which also "is"?

>>14189005
>I'm aware that the real core of it was done then, but a lot of the esoteric mystery's still remain
>I'm just finding out about C0DA now, could I get a quick rundown
lmao kid you're nowhere near the deep end yet, switch out to real books while you still can

>>14190477
I've probably heard the same ideas in other places anyway, but what is the C0DA? Is it just a long stream of writing based around/explaining lore?

Anyone got the chart for the descending levels of TES lore?

>>14190482
A little over half a decade or so ago when I still followed any of this Kirkbride became re-engaged with the newer lore community (especially as centered out of reddit and I think the BethSoft forums rather than places like Imperial Library and ancient forums) and initiated the Memospore ARG (poorly run, but it excited interest, and spawned an IRC chat that because a nest of deeplore people) and stayed a bit more active after that, producing the Loveletter and C0DA and other things I barely remember. Although Kirkbride is the original source of most of the things that were cool in TES, he's mostly style over substance, so I barely even remember most of it. I think C0DA was partly an implicit affirmation of the validity of fan writing (dubbed "Apocrypha" in-community). But anyway if you haven't closely reread the 36 Lessons of Vivec several times you're missing out. Even if it heavily and amateurly rips off other writings (most obviously "the ending of the words is ALMSIVI" being a Thelema allusion) it's still fun writing.

>>14190521
I'm this anon, by the way:
>>14188843
>>14188860
>>14188909
and I still hold to my outlook. The cooler corners of TES lore are mostly just dumb reductions of good literature. Engage in TES lore if you're interested, but I encourage you to try to use it as a stepping stone into actual art.

I was somewhat into tes lore at one point, but always at the top of the iceberg. At one point you realize that it was only a couple of dudes roleplaying and shitposting to fill in the gaps of virtual D&D, with stuff growing more and more convoluted because some of them really got excited and decided that grafting real life models into their brain baby and obfuscating certain parts for no reason was a cool thing to do.

>>14190521
>Memospore ARG
Quick rundown on this? And do you mean it rips of previous religious writings like Hinduism? And yes Kirkbride did say "it doesn't have to be realistic, it just has to evoke", his style is substance. Though Todd and Bethesda have done a great job with the lore, Kirkbride still has stacks of more content heavy stuff hidden for said Bethesda.

>>14190536
I already do look into that stuff anon, I just think there is a fun, uniquely creative element of TES which is probably my greatest shame in respect to one of the few unimportant productive things I relax to, from my childhood you know. But enjoying something is productive so meh.

It has something unique and great -- the lore that is -- but the feelings and aesthetic image the games themselves have created are a lower artform in themselves and because of this of a unique experience which is not of the higher artforms that I enjoy. Just fun.

There has been a few things bugging me about TES lore for quite a few years. When did TES Lore actually start as a distinct, unique and discussion worthy world? It has now become legendary but what was the critical mass of lore and game to create this reputation?
I am referring to the fact that it clearly didn't start with Arena, which besides the most basic names didn't provide much as far as I know. My understanding that it was Morrowind that really took the Elder Scrolls world from a generic fantasy to a ayahuasca time travel trip to ancient mesopotamia. Is this accurate?

>>14190578
But can't you see the lore itself as well as the games are obviously something so much more than D&D? And if you don't understand the purpose of the mystery you haven't actually understood it.

>>14190578
STOP. RUINING. MY. TES.

>>14190583
>Memospore ARG
>Quick rundown on this?
Bro I just said it was half a decade ago, I barely remember it, go Google it, it's all archived, except probably most of the later IRC stuff, but that was really just a vibrant fan community in the end. The original Memospore threads are definitely still around on Bethsoft and /r/teslore.
>a fun, uniquely creative element of TES
You'll come to feel this way about more serious art, I promise. There's nothing wrong with loving it; I loved it. Just try to keep in mind that it is developmental scaffolding, not an endpoint. I was recently invited to a chat with some of my old online weird lore friends and it was kind of depressing to see some of them still stuck on something so trivial. The same is true of me for /lit/, though—I'm on the edge of aging out of it. Regardless, it's a good sign that you're browsing /lit/, and interested in faux-academic theologico-philosophy, and earnest in your interests. Keep on keeping on, anon. You will have many phases in your life, and this is only one of them.

>>14190586
No. Kirkbride himself constantly says when giving smaller fans tips how to write and create a fantasy world "start with the Gods, then the Men, and then the Dog" or at least something very similar if the exact truth escapes me. He obviously had something or at least a fair bit there from the beginning as there was too much for Bethesda to be putting into the earlier games for it to be random. But yes it only ever really came into its own -- in my opinion -- great and distinct form in Morrowind, that character, spirit and idea which has pervaded throughout every other games in the series, had done been lead forward by Morrowind. It was never generic however, except for maybe in Arena. But that was really tech limitations and it of course being their first game.

>>14190586
The Redguard game was the earliest seed of the revisioning that took root in Morrowind. E.g. iirc the 1st Pocket Guide to the Empire was for Redguard. But some of the ideas from Daggerfall and Battlespire and the like were reappropriated into this revisioning, as with Numidium and Dragon Breaks being spawned by tying up Daggerfall's loose ends, or the concept of Battlespires as Imperial mage-ic battleships of sorts.

>>14190601
The purpose of the mystery is to garner autists (in a good way) like us, that are dissatisfied with the real and look for the non-trivial in the trivial. And ultimately ato sell games.

>>14190641
>every other games in the series, had done been lead forward by Morrowind.
What are some interesting lore aspects developed in Skyrim that weren't discussed before? I thought the idea of Alduin as a world eater was very cool. I liked exploring Hermaeus Mora's realm personally and seeing a "lovecraftian" realm in a videogame, based ironically or not off of infinite knowledge. Was there anything else in Skyrim that lorefags see?

>>14190626
>o I just said it was half a decade ago, I barely remember it, go Google it, it's all archived, except probably most of the later IRC stuff, but that was really just a vibrant fan community in the end. The original Memospore threads are definitely still around on Bethsoft and /r/teslore.
No I meant what does it stand for? Will probably have a quick look into the archives though, maybe see if there are any yt videos documenting this history.

>You'll come to feel this way about more serious art, I promise.
Alright, I believe you. But I can't help but feel that I already do, it's just that it isn't really the same casual feeling, when I look into art I can't relax, because it is the ideal, the important, it is what I put psychic energy into rather than a casual discharge of energy. Maybe I'm wrong here, I might of worded in badly as I still relax to looking at art or reading Plato and such but in placing mental importance on things these are important, and TES is less so being pure individual entertainment.

Also anon I'm 46.

>>14190648
I'm not dissatisfied with the real, I just enjoy relaxing to this high quality vidya stuff. Read the loverletter to understand what the mystery is for, I think that's the right thing anyway. It's an integral part of the TES world and lore.

>>14190654
>Was there anything else in Skyrim that lorefags see?
Yea, a fair bit. But as I've said before I find Skyrim to have less of the esoteric TES feeling and lore and so most of that new stuff in it is somewhat an end in itself. Content.

My take anyway.

>>14190657
>Also anon I'm 46.
M-michael?

I was watching gameplay of Arena the other day and there were some not so few commentors talking about the minutiae of lore regarding why Winterhold was so big and Whiterun didn't look like it does in Skyrim. Citing the merethic era and all this shit. When the most basic, actual reason is because none of that shit was written yet and Winterhold, Whiterun were just another of several pregenerated random cities. End of story.
But to see people discuss Winterhold pre-collapse really fucking bothered me for some reason, as it is a particular type of autism that makes me want to just shake that person into reason. Similar to those who get autistically into the obvious revisionism of Star Wars as if it was all planned out from the beginning. Does anyone else relate to this very unique frustration?

>>14190668
>M-michael?

>>14190657
>No I meant what does it stand for? Will probably have a quick look into the archives though, maybe see if there are any yt videos documenting this history.
Well so an ARG is an Alternate Reality Game so like when entertainment venues use fake playable conspiracies to market something or keep fans engaged. Portal did it, and I feel like Lain might have?
A Memospore is just a message, a small bit of information, just think like a spore of memory. One of the Apocryphal gimmicks around that time was that the Dreamsleeve was co-opted to send Memospore messages; the ARG was set off by a garbled "Memospore" posted on Kirkbride's YouTube.

>>14190670
>a child says "hey that doesn't make sense, they copied the Morrowind buildings"
>an older intelligent person says "no son, the game copied that building"
>*Boomer laughter*

>>14190670
Yes. Things like that bother me as well, but I try not to let it. Why should failed development goals or corporate cancelling major parts of the world for time/budget reasons be part of the lore. It shouldn't, best we can do is retcon some history to make the illusion believed.

>>14190664
>Read the loverletter to understand what the mystery is for, I think that's the right thing anyway.
Fine, I will. But if you say you aren't dissatisfied with the real, then why do you devote this time and energy to tes? Isn't that escapism? I partake in it too, but it ultimately stems from that.

>>14188686
As a guy who knows TESlore like the back of his hand I can tell you that i've never seen Todd's name show up in regards to lore.
The lore was layed out mainly by Kirkbride, Kurt Kuhlman, Ken Rolston, Ted Peterson, GT Noonan, and Douglas Goodall.
Todd seems to have had minimal involvement in building the world of the Elder Scrolls.

>>14190684
kek

>>14190686
what corporate cancelling happened though? Whiterun and Winterhold, despite being smaller and scaled down, are actual locations now. Back then they were fast travel points with no identity besides a different weather effect. It's not like back when they made Arena they had different ideas, they served exactly what they were meant to given the type of game they were making.

>>14190682
This is one of my favorite pieces of TES lore. I missed out on most of it though because I wasn't in the chat. Oblivion NPCs, seemingly meaningless b&w garbled videos, redubbing anime to tell the story of the taking of white tower but with raining chicken wings. I miss it. Wouldnt be surprised if MK is playing a long con right now.

>>14188887
>>14188904
Point and laugh at this absolute shit taste having baby boomer

Liking Skyrim should be sufficient reason for public castration, honestly

>>14190682
Huh, I see. So how come it isn't as active now? And any reason why Kirkbride just likes to garble words together sometimes like Charles Carrol?

>>14190687
You might as well call art escapism also, rather than an aesthetic revelation. In the case of TES it's scaled down of course many degrees from that but it's just some entertainment because I think the world is cool and the many theories can be funny, like the never ending cycle of(I forget his name but that Morrowind character with the F in his name). I engage in the real also.

>>14190714
>And any reason why Kirkbride just likes to garble words together sometimes like Charles Carrol?
lmao so fucking true and i unironically fear watching Charles anymore because i have this irrational fear that schizofrenia is contagious and watching him too much will make me like him

>>14190691
He had massive involvement anon, he just creates the game and so his name goes there instead.

>>14190696
>kek
Thanks!

>>14190712
I'm a zoomer

zoom zoom zoom zoom

>>14190719
He's truly a masterful editor and "comedian". I swear though Kirkbride and Carrol just seem like very similar people, both short(soz Charles), both look similar, both have similar interests, both write the same way with the same character, which can only lead me to assume they act at least very similar also.

>>14190720
No, he genuinely has had extremely little involvement in the lore of the series

>>14190714
>Huh, I see. So how come it isn't as active now?
ARGs don't tend to last long. If you mean the chat, there's a newer discord with some of those people in it, but I'd rather not link it to randos, especially seeing as I shat on it earlier in this thread.
>And any reason why Kirkbride just likes to garble words together sometimes like Charles Carrol?
Style over substance. It's a love of language and love of novelty thing that I identify with and enjoy, and I don't mean to wholly disparage MK when I say style over substance, but it's 1000% style over substance. Another big influence on MK which I haven't mentioned yet in this thread is Robert Anton Wilson, if that helps you understand...

inb4

>>14190486
I wanna see this too

>>14190486
>>14190778
There's a meme one parodying Kirkbridean weirdlore and off the wall fan theories

>>14188672
Sithis
The Truth in Sequence
N'Gasta! Kvata! Kvakis!
Ku-Vastei: The Needed Change
2920

my personal favorites. listing the sermons is cheating

>>14190745
>No, he genuinely has had extremely little involvement in the lore of the series
I disagree.

>ARGs don't tend to last long. If you mean the chat, there's a newer discord with some of those people in it, but I'd rather not link it to randos, especially seeing as I shat on it earlier in this thread.
Gib link, gib link. They wont know who you are.

>Style over substance. It's a love of language and love of novelty thing that I identify with and enjoy, and I don't mean to wholly disparage MK when I say style over substance, but it's 1000% style over substance. Another big influence on MK which I haven't mentioned yet in this thread is Robert Anton Wilson, if that helps you understand...
But what about all of the lore, was that just Todd?

>>14190756
True, I made this thread a day or two ago and it got archived. So here it is again.

>>14190778
>>14190787
Yea that was good, is there really even a serious one though?

>>14190797
Why is it cheating?

So do the Sermons come from in Morrowind or are they an outside lore thing?

T. newfag to TES lore

>>14190834
they're in-game

Besides the fact that this thread is obviously off-topic (not like half the threads on this shit board aren't), I'm a little disappointed to see that people here are no better than the average /v/tard in wanking over MUH DEEPEST LORE. I don't care how many tomes of quasi-canonical Kirkbride babble you want to throw at me; this series does not have good writing even by video game standards.

>>14190797
>N'Gasta! Kvata! Kvakis!
Ah yes, the TES equivalent of finnegans wake.

>>14190823
>But what about all of the lore, was that just Todd?
I don't understand why you're so fixated on Todd, he's necessarily involved in the lore insofar as he's trying to keep a semiconsistent canon and produce playable games but nothing interesting came from him. It's his sort of attitude that produced bland European grassland Cyrodiil instead of Nibenese dragon'd jungled mothy Chinese-Roman Cyrod
>Gib link, gib link. They wont know who you are.
Sure, whatever: https://discord.gg/ag2Pc9

>>14190862
t. fanfic writer whose name I don't even know because he's of no consequence

>>14190823
>I disagree
Brah, if you got some backing to your claim go ahead and share it with me, but otherwise the only thing I've ever seen relating him to the lore was some beth dev saying todd gave him the go-ahead to retcon Darkbrotherhood lore.

>>14190906
You're too good for this place

>>14191043
I know, I'm trying to leave

>>14191161
You're here forever.

>>14190906
>I don't understand why you're so fixated on Todd, he's necessarily involved in the lore insofar as he's trying to keep a semiconsistent canon and produce playable games but nothing interesting came from him. It's his sort of attitude that produced bland European grassland Cyrodiil instead of Nibenese dragon'd jungled mothy Chinese-Roman Cyrod
True enough anon, still I think medieval England grassy Cyrodill isn't that bad. Maybe it was just the tech limitations of the time.

>Sure, whatever: https://discord.gg/ag2Pc9
Cheers anon, you're amazing.

>>14190987
It's Todd Howard?

>>14191217
I know, I'm trying to leave

bump

bump

>>14191748
>>14192608
let a good thread die, don't violate her corspe

I don't read in real life, let alone in fucking Skyrim.

/v/ I mean this with all due respect; you need to fuck off. We don't want your kind here, never have, never will. Stop dumping your garbage here, and take it to the boards that will give a shit, like /tg/ perhaps.

>>14192663
I'm only the top one, and NEVER! She must live, because if she doesn't, I don't know what I'm going to do.

>>14192765
Then why are you on /lit/? Besides wouldn't it be the other way around?

>>14193898
Fuck off you tight assed bastard, this is a good thread, and it's a topic which partially falls under /v/, that we like, which is raised by the fellow intelligence of /lit/.

>>14194949
>which is raised by the fellow intelligence of /lit/.
Ah I see this what this is all about now. Typical /v/ scum poke their head out of their containment board and tries to muck up other boards with vaguely off-topic bullshit because they can't stand being on their own board that much. /lit/ certainly wants nothing to do with your nonsense.

>>14195234
I haven't been to /v/ in a month, and I haven't "browsed" there in I don't know how long. I've been browsing /lit/ for a couple years mainly when I left /pol/.

I just enjoy the occasional vidya discussion, last time I relaxed from working out, reading, being socially responsive and being generally what one would call /fitlit/ was 3 weeks ago. I just want to relax but I can't because of people like you, I just want to sit down in my chair and relax and drink some coffee and eat but you ruin this thread. TES lore will only have a positive impact on /lit/.

>>14188808
I thought he had no involvement with the Skyrim development and that's the first time the Thalmor are introduced..

>impressed by Kirkbride

Just read Crowley, not only does he reference it, lessons of Vivec are full of direct quotations "love is under my will only", "in my left hand I crushed the world, in my right hand is how it could have won against me", "what I bring is a star" and so on

frankly, it's quite embarrassing, he probably thought video game nerds wouldn't notice (and he was right)

>>14195957
He wrote a lot of the lore, and has a bunch stored away. I'd be willing to bet they'd(Bethesda) been planning the Thalmor invasion since Morrowind.

He also writes in game books occasionally for Bethesda though as far as he writes and talks publicly it seems the more esoteric parts of TES are the things he's fleshing out now.

>>14190862
let's be honest, /lit/ has become more of a theosophy board in the last couple years than a literature board
and the elder scrolls lore really captures a lot of that kind of thinking in a way that no other vidya ever has or probably will again any time soon

How does it feel to know that Todd Howard, the man responsible for, and who worked individually and creatively on games like Morrowind, Fallout 3, Oblivion, Skyrim, etc, is now no longer going to be working in such a way with any further Bethesda game(why 76 was so bad) including TES 6? Zenimax crammed Skyrim though it still succeeded, they crammed Fallout 4 but not enough that it was a failure, but 76 was an example of greed. I hope they learned a lesson there of quality over quantity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpSDMorXGyo

>>14195972
>it seems the more esoteric parts of TES are the things he's fleshing out now.

last thing he fucking wrote was c0da (still unfinished) which was garbage and introduced nothing new lorewise besides what was already known from the old bethsoft forums i.e. amaranth

>>14195966
Why was Crowley such a fat fucking retard? Honestly I don't understand how someone could be so stupid.

>>14195966
>Crowley: "Hurr durr I have a metaphysically ontological basis for egoism"

>>14196003
I have no knowledge of crowley's life besides the fact that he was a provocateur and made a pseudo-theological system that was just meant as a helpful tool for artists

>>14196006
>Vivec: "Hurr durr I have a metaphysically ontological basis for egoism"

same thing

1st for the Argonian maid series

>>14196000
Stop being such a wingey faggot, C0DA was good.

>>14196011
>I have no knowledge of crowley's life besides the fact that he was a provocateur and made a pseudo-theological system that was just meant as a helpful tool for artists
Explain this.

>>14196011
>>Vivec: "Hurr durr I have a metaphysically ontological basis for egoism"
>same thing
So Vivec and Kirkbride are pseudo-selfjerking egoists?

>>14196015
Could you post it in the thread?

Pls, would be appreciated.

>>14196019
>my self-insert has gay sex with an OC and this saves the world and my chosen race of gray-faced red-eyed jews lives happily ever after in the world made as a result of their gay sex orgy
>oh, and all my fanfiction is canon now because c0da

bravo, kirkbride, bravo!

>>14196022
Definition of Magick according to crowley is causing change made according to true Will. Love is the assimilation of experience with accordance to the True Will.

What is True Will? It's in every way perfect, unassuaged of purpose, delivered from the lust of result, and leads you to your Star. The true self of the individual is not deep inside them, but high above them (that's a quote from Nietzsche I think). This is all philosophy and practice of being an artist.

>So Vivec and Kirkbride are pseudo-selfjerking egoists?
Vivec? On one hand yes, they only believe in the importance of the self, but also he/she/they want everybody to reach their own Star. Star = divinity = godhood = perfection etc.
Kirkbride? that was always obvious

>>14196029
Anon, do you really think the sexual component of that was just there cause "why not"? I'm not saying it's the most complex thing but come on anon.

>>14196096
It was there because Kirkbride always puts sex into everything he writes, what was the last big thing he did for TES? Knights of the Nine? And he went ahead and gave Morihaus a gigantic bull cock to pound Alessia with, they had to cut the more explicit depictions out

>>14196059
Anon, you aren't explaining why it being free of intent makes it perfect, and how fucking other men and mutilating myself fits into that? Seems like it's just a very particularly fitted religious concept as an excuse for his own unfounded ideology.

>Vivec? On one hand yes, they only believe in the importance of the self, but also he/she/they want everybody to reach their own Star. Star = divinity = godhood = perfection etc.
>Kirkbride? that was always obvious
It still seems stupid, I'm all for finding ones higher self which does have a unique relation to the individual, however I would say it is much closer to how Jung or the Gnostic's had put it. Of course it's too complex to explain wholly here, I will say that it incorporates the necessary "collective" character of this meta-unfolding of oneself. The racial element, the nationalistic element, the religious element. We act and behave in concentric circles, no man can go through life un-moving, unfailing or un-succeeding. And in this structure of Logos do we behave in accordance with, for the representation cannot be departed from the will as it only can experience itself and so now it has character indubitably "it", except now it finds that it sees others, while the "will" in itself cannot be so as it is a self destroying concept which only the Grail of the Holy can elevate man to see beyond, to its truest form of pure-creative force and total harmony of the unmoving.

Crowely was an edgy brainlet hack with daddy problems that didn't understand any of this.

>>14196115
I don't know what you are saying but I don't see anything wrong with giving a character a big penis in a game world, it's not high art, it's funny if anything. Though I do remember his original idea of the wood elves being "the women are all beautiful, and the males are all goblin animal like".

>>14196134
in every way perfect is defined as "free of purpose" and "free of the lust of result", and by how vague this is you can see it's supposed to be a tool for artistic work. Here's a more in depth explanation
iao131.com/tag/love-under-will/

pretty sure Crowley was aware of Jung, Freud, and Gnosticism (his metaphysics are an exact copy with some small twists)
I can't be bothered to deduce what sort of problems you have with the abridged outline of what Thelema concerns, but again, it's more of a tool than a philosophy, just read "magick in theory and practice" or something like that

>>14195966
If you'd read the thread you'd know this was known

>>14196208
>>14196208
You lack explaining why being free of purpose is perfect, it seems as if this itself becomes that purpose.

And Anon how could you not see my problem by reading my statement, I thought I put it down pretty obviously. Let me ask you this, and I do so acknowledging I have never read Crowley, does he believe in the moral?

Will read it though.

>>14196271
Start with the Book of the Law and compare it to 36 Lessons of Vivec and Spinoza's Ethics and you'll see a gradual transmission of plagiarism

>>14196271
>does he believe in the moral
>does the guy who called himself THE BEAST 666 believe in the moral
nah, sin = repression, only right thing is following your true will: “Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law” & “Love is the law, love under will” "Hate itself can almost be like Love"

>>14196141
"None of my in-game books were ever edited with the exception of a few lines in The Song of Pelinal (one removing Morihaus' erection, another stating that Pelinal was homosexual)." - MK

>>14196281
So Crowley plagiarised Vivec and Spinoza? Sounds a bout right.

>>14196304
>nah, sin = repression, only right thing is following your true will: “Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law” & “Love is the law, love under will” "Hate itself can almost be like Love"
Do you believe there are certain laws of existence? Then do you believe there are certain laws of a life's existence? Then do you believe there are certain laws of a species' existence? Then do you believe there are certain laws of a races existence? Then do you believe there are certain laws of a family's existence? Then do you believe there are certain laws of an individuals existence all including these previous archetypal experiences? And that there are certain more beneficial pathways

If there is a mutuality of will(and I have explained the idiocy of a "will" prior)then any action is as valid as the other, Christian or Satanic, moral or immoral, except you are making an unfounded statement of human nature that "because one does not give into sexual desires then it must be repression and therefore wrong", totally retarded and ideologically self contradictory in its statement in so many layers and ways.

Now realising there is the Logos beyond the individual yet also as it, and certain ethical actions within that framework yet also self evident in their effect, then you find a moral code and nature.

>>14196315
>"None of my in-game books were ever edited with the exception of a few lines in The Song of Pelinal (one removing Morihaus' erection, another stating that Pelinal was homosexual)." - MK

>>14196304
>>14196411
Another thing is that coincides with this statement is that you must understand the limited nature of man, and by that conquer it. Not walk around blind folded speaking of how fucking a goat will elevate yourself and that you can do anything you want.

>>14190486
>>14190778
>>14190787
>>14190832
Here you go, anons.

>>14196473
Thanks mate.

Would you say the 36 lessons of Vivec has literary merit or is it massively overhyped? What did you take away from it
>>14196473
Amazing

>>14196614
>What did you take away from it
paraphrased Crowley's book of law into a fantasy setting

>>14196473
>Watch the sky...
I FUCKING FORGOT ABOUT THIS

>>14195966
Retard, morrowind shipped with magic on it. Actual wizard shit. The kind Moore can't manage. And it worked. Ofc Crowley is quoted.

>>14196614
>36 lessons of Vivec has literary merit or is it massively overhyped
It has literary merit but only insofar as it's pretty (just like the Book of the Law). Style over substance

>>14196893

>>14195957
Not directly, but he definity did. You know that one Talos worshiper in Whiterun? Im pretty sure his whole shpeel is Kirkbride with a few changes here and there. Also the Thalmor's metaphysical endgoals are also his too I think.

>>14197054
why the fuck does elder scrolls lore always summon the non sequiturs

>>14196614
Well, I think that the fact that its in a fantasy world dampers its imediate impact. I mean , lets be fair, if a similar writen doc appeared in some culture a few centuries or mellenia ago it would be pretty lauded. What Im trying to say is, that in universe it is pretty great in relation to other stuff, but taken by itself outside of the games context, its an interesting exercise in creating a culturally important piece of work. An exercise in Tolkeinism. And I think It does a pretty great job doing it. Creating a culture and making a document feel natural in it.

Id say its pretty good lit.

>>14197054
WHAT IS THIS ANON! It's so familar yet I don't know where it's from.

Anon please I beg of you!

>>14197068
>he can't remember Heimskrs name
Shame on you anon.

Ooh yeah these songs, look at his dance moves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRYFKcMa_Ek&list=PLC9SRKRk3N8SeYjlwYooOi4y8WTZpod97&index=19&t=0s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=129kuDCQtHs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btPJPFnesV4

>>14188808
Good. They deserve it. Most races of Men are pathetic and the beast races only exist to be ruled.

>>14197188
look up goat tower

>>14188672
/tg/ has a general Elder Scrolls lore thread every weekend, in fact this weekend's is still up
>>>/tg/69408799

>>14197320
>implying the Elves aren't the fallen jealous beings and the men the rising mortal ones of sacrificial beauty
One cannot let go, and another has nothing to let go of and can only climb further.

>>14197337
Okay. Will do.

>>14197372
Cheers anon, I'd heard they had but wasn't sure as I think I've only been there once when making a thread about HEMA fighting.

>>14196473
I wonder if anyone has named their child Fargoth

>>14197568
Probably some degenerate out there:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGs_vGt0MY8

>Tfw have an Abstinthe adiction

>>14188922
This is the only good video that guy made. The rest are low effort meme shit.

>>14198443
I don't get it.

>>14198468
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVdTZhmsGsU

This got big so he's made a series about certain niche aspects of games and lore. This only good one. The others are like, "which castlevania enemies are the hottest" or "Mario enemy ranks" both of which are just joke videos. At least the skyrim talked about the books in a somewhat professional fashion.