/lit/ - Literature

>>14161394
maybe you should read the fucking book

>>14161399
He doesn't talk about how it could survive vs states in the book.

>>14161394
Sometime anarchy is more a lifestyle than a really political system. But this lifestyle can kill the state! For exemple Anarcho-egois (or anarcho individualism) can perfectly kill the state because nobody will obey a state who defend only himself. In an Anarcho-egoist society, everybody follow his goal and sometime people have a goal in common and creat Egoist union. Read Max Stirner.

>>14161415
Anarcho-Capitalism can kill the state too but in the worst way.

anarchism is not a fixed prescriptive system
how would anarchism survive against a state?

probably with guns

>>14161424

Based. Anarcho-Pacifist are just child. They are cute but too childish...

>Tfw anarcho-pacifist gf look very cute
>You love gun
>"Anon i don't think that would work between us..."
>FUCK YOU PACIFISM YOU RUIN MY LIFE

>>14161394
It wouldn't. Even the most braindead anarchist should know that after Hiroshima, it was game over for their "ideology". Apparently they're dumber than I thought.

>>14161394
Isn't organization and networking absolutely central to anarchism?

>>14161424
You think anarchist society could fight state? In 3000 years, 600,000 social entities became less than 200. Everything you see from 1000 BC is created from states. Guns, warfare, armies, specializations, etc. You can't fight them with just guns what they're masters in.

>>14161465

read that : >>14161415

>>14161465
anarchist society is not a definite thing. could an anarchist society fight a state? sure. it's not an a priori contradiction. history gives us a hint of it in anarchist catalonia, where the anarchists had self sustaining food and weapons production and gave a couple franco jarheads a nice spank on the ass.

but i think most anarchists would prefer a borderless revolution and union between the proletariat of different states. if i have a functioning anarchist society at your border are your underprivileged going to want to crush me or take part in what i've got going on.

my hang up with anarchism involves questions of economy and distribution of resources, not military. a gun kills in anybody's hands.

>>14161430
as an anarchist, I'm against pacifism because the only thing it does is protecting the state. However, I'm mostly against guns because its made by the industry and is one of the biggest state repression tools

>>14161423
Anarcho-capitalism is the best of both worlds.

Orderly state-like societies, but without having to pay for degenerates.

>>14161394
In Spain, the Anarchist communes were basically states, just less hierarchical. Anarchy just means that instead of a head of government (either elected or unelected) who appoints people to do certain tasks, it's all the constituents electing temporary committees for them. Basically just a very direct democracy with no PM or president.

It can work, although it's probably less efficient than a representative democracy.

>>14161552

Wtf

>>14161394
How high can you count?

It's a numbers game. Everything always was. Anarchists can be soldiers too.

>>14161415
You’re joking. People will always form organisations and seek protection in a larger structure. It doesn’t even have to be a traditional state-structure; just look at the various criminal gangs/mafias that rose up out of the anarchic (criminal) ethos.
If I’m a dishonourable, objectionable person (most of humanity) living in an anarchist society, and I’m approached by some guys who have weapons and a leader and are starting to form a traditional hierarchical structure, and they propose invading other villages and subjugating them/forcing them to pay taxes, I will certainly go along with it.
And if I’m a different person in a nearby village who hears of this attack, I will preemptively organise with all my men in a similar traditional hierarchical structure so that we can resist subjugation.
This is the formation of states/governments.

>>14161572
>It can work, although it's probably less efficient than a representative democracy.
I disagree. Direct democracies are all a society needs. They'd be plenty efficient

>>14161580
Are you going to die for the revolution when the time finally comes?

>>14161583
I've always said that we already do live in the AnCap paradise, this is just how it ended up

>>14161588
The Christians are driving us towards the extinction event so Jesus will return. You're all going to die.

>>14161590
You could say every system "ended up" like this.
Calling it an AnCap paradise is a bit silly, when even things like voluntary segregation are against the law.

>>14161606
In the end everything is decided by men with weapons, and the people who can convince these men to do stuff. All other material power is subject to the menwithweapons clause, and that dynamic reminds me more of ancap than anything else.

>>14161394
Not an anarchist so it's only an guess, but maybe they hope that if there is an emerging state, it would be countered by a temporary state created by every other person on earth. After the first state is defeated, the temporary state will disolve

>>14161394

>>14161825
>a temporary state created by every other person on earth
Organising the whole of humanity under a centralised hierarchy in a pinch is easier said than done.

>>14161838
The thing is their society “works” in a way. It can. But not if it emerges immediately. They were debunked by Engels long ago and it’s necessary for transitional phases established by the proletariat. But even then. Anarchists mostly don’t want to abolish work or the cancerous things capitalism has made. They should be opposed strictly for that reason

>>14161399
I ride chariot and burn villages. Will you recite your book out loud while I'm doing it and hope you'll succeed at convincing me to stop?

>>14162170
>But even then. Anarchists mostly don’t want to abolish work or the cancerous things capitalism has made
The fuck is that supposed to mean? You just pointed out there has to be a transitional phase.

>>14161415
What's the difference between a union and a state?

>>14162523
butterfly can i ask you a question, what do you think about the leaked government files that say ESP is real and ufos are real im curious

>>14162523
>>14162544
butterfly, i want to know :( what you think about that

>>14162544
>>14162640
>>14162523
butterfly please

>>14162170
>Anarchists mostly don’t want to abolish work or the cancerous things capitalism has made.
Elaborate.

>>14162531
A traditional nation-state has borders, laws, armies, money, classes.
A union is a marriage, an assemblage, a club, a general coming together of two or more for brief or sustained periods

>>14162871
butterfly why did you ignore me i want to know what you think about >>14162544

>>14162879
guys why the fuck is butterfly ignoring me it sucks i want to talk about the possibility of ufos on earth and ESP

>>14162879
What ufo and esp? They’re distractions. Psyops to keep the populace confused and frightened

>>14162907
Surely a conspiracy

>>14162936
but there are government files talking about how they're real https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/collection/stargate

and nixon literally invented the term conspiracy theorist to discredit leftists etc

>>14162961
The secret services invented the term to discredit actual conspiracies. Never trust the Pentagon, Anon. Their business is to lie.

>>14161415
What would be Stirner's best book for an introduction to his philosophy?

>>14162979
yes but wikileaks has files about ufos also
and whistleblowers
>>14162988
ego and his own

>>14162988
The Unique and it’s Property, and Stirner’s Critics is pretty much it. He also wrote a little paper on education. I read it in the anthology No Gods, No Masters

>>14162988
there is no philosophy, he's just an idiot

>>14162997
>>14163009
Thank you anons
>>14163028
I'll decide that for myself

Anarchism is not ontologically real you faggots

Why invent utopias if no one can successfully implement it?

>>14161394
>If I lived in an anarchist society, I'd be afraid of being controlled by a government that enslaved us through force while we had no mandatory precautions from military service and taxation!
>Thus, I believe we should all be enslaved to the same government I am afraid of potentially being enslaved to!
I'm afraid of dying, so we should all just kill ourselves rather than try to live as long as possible even if death may be inevitable.

>>14163357
What is Rojava, Chiapas, Spanish Revolution? Oh no, they didn't tell you at school about this? How so?

>>14161583
Ive always kinda thought this. I know most anarchists do believe in "Justifiable" hierarchies only, things that would prevent unjustifiable ones from forming and do stuff for the common good, but that gets into who watches the watchmen scenario. i I guess checks and balances could be organized, but still, the vacuum of structural hierarchy would mean that if one hierarchy gets too powerful, it could easily snowball.

I could maybe see it if it was under some purely logos driven AI though who takes the role of a prime minister or soveriegn figure, with a counsoul of the checks and balances making sure that the AI is well maintained.
>>14161825
Yes, but that would presuppose every man to be a cincinatus.

>>14163381
Well put

Ancap is retarded and I don't think anyone but nerdy white teens could possibly support it. There is a kind of ressentiment to it. There is a very very small population who would benefit from ancap. It is in part delusions of grandeur thinking you - the fedora lord who nobody noticed at school - will be a great and powerful capitalist if the lefties will just stop oppressing your Rational way of thinking. And in the other part, it is self aware evil, it is destructive willing-oppression, it is bitterness that sides with its own oppression because it means the oppression of many others too.

>>14161552
But anarcho-capitalists ARE the degenerates.
Morally and intellectually, that is.

>>14163496
Being an ancap means that you can't comprehend a wikipedia article on anarchism.

>>14163511

I've always seen anarchy as a purely destructive or liberating force that uses insurrectionary maneuvers to wage war against the powers that be. If you start talking about revolution, anarch*ism* and 'anarchist societies' you move away from anarchy to talk about left-libertarianism and basically regress from anarchy into ideology and relinquish the transgressive force of anarchy to tankie subversion(which also has an important role to play)
The real anarchists are pragmatists who use anarchy as a semiotic weapon to wage a war of transgressive terror against unjust power.

>>14163642
Meh. Read some Proudhon.
In the end, I don’t care what you call it.

>>14161394
Anarchism comes after Communism comes after Socialism comes after Democratic Socialism comes after Libtardism comes after Fascism (you are here)

>>14163523
>>14163688
you think you're smart? No, You're a retard. And the rest of the world is laughing at you for it. You are a disgrace to humanity.

>>14163717

>>14161394
>How wouls anarchism even survive?

It wouldn't.

It would be one thing if we lived in a hunter/gather society but society has evolved so far technologically that people need incentive to work.

In Anarchy who's going to grow your crops and transport them so you have something to eat at the store every week? Who's going to maintain your power lines so yo can have electricity in your house? Whos going to maintain your water supply so that its ok to drink?

Anarchy is fun when your a teen who doesn't understand how the modern world works but as a societal concept it fails due to our comfortability in modern society.

>>14163780
have you read a single book on Anarchy ?

>>14163780
Shhhsh. Resd

>>14163788
>have you read a single book on Anarchy ?

I've read enough to know its a nonsensical political ideology especially when they talk about "abolishing hierarchy's" in society. That's probably the dumbest thing about anarchists is that they actually believe they can up-root natural functions that arise from nature that we manifest in society.

>>14163862
Hahahah. You fraud. Anarchism is about challenging unjustifiable hierarchies

>>14163862
>enough to know

This happened in the free territories in Ukraine too which got eaten up by the USSR

>>14161528
>pacifism protects the state
gelderloos reader spotted

>>14162170
the transitional phase (at least in anarcho-sydicalism) is supposed to take place while states and capitalism are still around, unions are supposed to become radical education organs that can train workers to take control of administrative needs of their workplaces. these are then joined into larger "cartels" of unions (as rocker called them in his book, dont know if thats a translation issue) across nation states.

>>14163414
>leaving out ukranian free territory
they dont teach you about them because they didn't have much of an impact on the world. reds crushed the makhnovists, fascists crushed cnt/fai and rojava is gonna be over in a few months. they are absolutely worth studying if you are an anarchist but in high school they arnt gonna get into failed revolutions that lasted for a few years

>>14165224
>8kun
Based.

>>14161394
>>>/his/

>>14163414
>Rojava
Getting btfo by Turkey.
>Chiapas
Shithole that is safely ignored.
>Revolutionary Spain
Collapsed into infighting then got btfo.

Damn, butterfly really is based.

>>14165318
>>>/rdt/

>>14165323
>Shithole

You just dub things with a label to sleep more comfortably. Those people reclaimed their lives. The real shit hole is the tyrannical dystopia that calls itself the number one country in the world, while draining the lifeblood of the planet.

You have anger issues.

>>14165323
>Getting btfo by Turkey
This is the best part of the civil war, bunch of armchair generals and LARPers watching all their predictions fail to come true. Getting spitroasted by Assad and Russia to hold back the Turks is a fitting end.
>n-no! Iraq won't be repeated!

>>14165357
Cope.

>>14165361
We live on the same planet, dumbass. We’re all trying to cope with this shit system you kiss the boots of

>>14161394
Anarchism is a technical/ontological impossibility as the structure of language itself, and by extension it's products, is hierarchical. Supposedly democratic and anarchic societies simply efface these hierarchies beneath an anarchic veneer. This veneer however impedes the optimal functioning of these hierarchies, obstructing the issuance of imperatives down the chain of command. The correct course of action is to remove these obfuscatory veneers and formalise these hierarchies, thus enabling them to function optimally.

>>14161552
>be ancap society
>small companies exist in free market
>one company wins out due to free market
>company buys another company
>then another
>company buys all competitors
>makes sure new competitors cant enter market by buying out stores and pushing product heavily in advertising
>company becomes monopoly
>company branches out into other fields, creating more monopolies, merging with other companies to become even bigger
>only a few companies remain, though most work with each other through mergers and oligopolies
>ancap society owned by elite ruling class who seek only to subjugate the poor for their own gain
but hey, at least its not socialism

>>14161552
fucking brainlet

>>14161552
Just as retarded as anarcho-communism

>>14161552

>>14165648
Why? Why do you ascribe language with only that characteristic? How is language hierarchical?
And even if it were, language is a product of a dialectic exchange between the environment of the humans who use it and their thoughts. When people change conditions their language changes.

In short, you are a verbal bullshitter.

>>14167296
I'm a bullshitter because my opinion is informed by a different philosophical/intellectual tradition? You are small and closed-minded.
Language is fundamentally an attentional directive, itself the product of intention. In any given speech act there exists an attentional asymmetry between its interlocutors. That is, in any given discourse there exists a leader and a follower.
>When people change conditions their language changes.
Yes, but the mechanism by language functions the same. This is why translation is possible.

>>14161583
>>14163418
Dunno anything about anarchism but I was under the impression that what you describe is fine so long as this 'state' (very different to modern states) is formed naturalistically from the individual in a group, not a separate beast that has its own life and begins to overwrite those individuals. So basically a state is no more than a provisional product of individuals, it corresponds to those individuals' strengths and interests. This is not the case with modern states at all, which are more like looming, fabricated predators we happen to be born under.

This is also why there are people who came to tribalism and ethnonationalism through anarchism. Of course, civic nationalism, especially the presentday kind (completely meaningless, directed by commercial trends) is the height of the state's artificiality imposed on random people that happen to be born under its authority.

it wouldn't and it doesn't, lenin was completely correct about anarchists