/lit/ - Literature

>>14144319
This is what fascists actually believe.

>>14144322
Yes.

>>14144324
Okay.

>>14144322
fascists tactics err more on the side of capital punishment, brutality, and incarceration.

the intent of the ludovico technique was reform and in the book was advocated by a liberal politician. Are the screws working at psych wards outed fascists?

>muh binary black-and-white worldview
>only fascists can be oppressive and oppression can only be called fascism hurr durf

>>14144340
>fascists tactics err more on the side of capital punishment, brutality, and incarceration.
so fascism?
>muh binary black-and-white worldview
who are you quoting?

>>14144340
>Are the screws working at psych wards outed fascists?

Yes.

>>14144319
He was stopped from comitting rape and murder when he was thrown in jail.
The mistake is that the Ludovico technique intends to "cure" Alex's evil through pharmacology and brainwashing instead of accepting the full ramifications of its existence. The ludovico technique only creates a cripple. It would be just as ethical to electrocute Alex at such a juncture.

Buffoonish as the priest is, he offers the most incisive examination and critique of Alex's person and actions.

>>14144359
My thoughts as well, the priest was a decent person.

>>14144353
>>14144348
you're throwing the word fascist around like stupid twitter children instead of promoting or engaging in any kind of critical thinking.

>>14144364
Atleast in the movie it's hinted that he might be a pedo. But I agree he's definitely in the right when it comes to Alex

>>14144359
>He was stopped from comitting rape and murder when he was thrown in jail.
And then he's let out for good behaviour and carries on with raping and murdering.
>instead of accepting the full ramifications of its existence.
Which means what?
>The ludovico technique only creates a cripple. It would be just as ethical to electrocute Alex at such a juncture.
Nothing wrong with that.

I remember reading some essay a while back concerning the "virtue" of Muslims. Someone had told the author that Muslims are more virtuous and devout because the majority of them abstains from alcohol, as the Koran mandates.

The author of the piece argued that we have actually no idea how devout or virtuous Muslims in Muslim countries are, on the subject of alcohol, because those nations ban it. They simply don't have the easy ability to drink, rendering their mettle untested.

I'd say that is the problem with the Ludovico Technique. It's not necessarily that the person no longer has free will, but more so that his true person and his true mettle goes dormant and untested.

>>14144409
But who gives a fuck about his true mettle?

>>14144392
>Atleast in the movie it's hinted that he might be a pedo
In which part? I didn't catch that.

>>14144399
He's let out because it is assumed that the Ludovico technique has cured him (the seeming success of its staged demonstration). After which, it is assumed that he is cured. It's a process unlike the classical prison sentence.
>the full ramifications of its existence
That Alex is a fallen, amoral creature and merely blocking him from taking certain actions isn't enough. There has to be a true inward redemption for him to change.
>It would be just as ethical to electrocute Alex
so, against these reformers in the book
it would be justifiable to say "drop the pretenses and shoot him instead of patting yourself on the back and pretending you did something good?"

>>14144409
Then Muslims go to some place like Bahrain and reveal themselves to be cocky, degenerate manchildren.

So yes, good point.

>>14144399
>And then he's let out for good behaviour and carries on with raping and murdering.
Isn't he let out in the condition that he must be subject to this new experimental program (Ludovico)?

>>14144430
I'm talking about a world without the procedure. He was sentenced for 14 years and he was (pretending) to be a model prisoner so he at some point he would have been let out.

>>14144416
Well, because, as with the Muslims, you can't really say that they are devout or that Alex has been "cured." You simply can't tell.

Perhaps a better example is that of a pedophile who never acts on it because s/he's never around children. It's not that s/he's not a pedophile, but more that the mettle hasn't yet been tested. The people who are most affected by this untested mettle are the ones who would care the most, presumably—the parents of the children and the children themselves.

>>14144449
If he were left under the auspices of the priest and the guard, perhaps. But that area of his development is hardly tracked by the prison. They're devoted to the Ludovico Technique. So your assumption depends on the plot being much different from what it actually is.

They're not interested in probing too far into Alex so much as they are testing their theory.

>>14144454
But the potential of both the haram Muslims and the child molsting pedos is still there. The Ludovico Technique works - it removes that potential entirely. You can tell he won't be violent again because he is physically unable to.

>>14144462
The assumption is based on what tends to happen to prisoners who have been given sentences for a set amount of time: they get let out.

>>14144484
In the case of Alex: they serve out a very, very, very long sentence in a cube. Then if they're good, they get paroled, and the state takes its chances with recidivism.

Not perfect and yet, not as full-blown bonkers. Should be borne in mind that what prompts the ludovico technique's acceleration is the overcrowding and financial burden of prisons.

>>14144322
it's hilarious that meek communists are obssessed with the rights of hyper violent criminals who would abuse them and laugh about it. Is this some kind of self-imposed preemptive Stockholm syndrome, a hypertrophied remainder of their time being bullied as children. They do a very similar thing with men like Lenin and Stalin who obviously didn't give a shit about communism and just liked power. Stalin robbed banks for fuck's sakes, he was just a thug. Commies in 2019 are like middle aged soccer moms who get flustered when thinking about gangsters, pathetically afraid of offending even literal trannies, yet somehow identifying themselves with the spirit of rebellion and will to power present in the criminal class, who they imagine to be somehow righteous because their peabrains can't understand the fact that criminals are just low IQ, low inhibition antisocial people.

>>14144319
so instead of the death penalty or slave labor, you'd rather pay for the therapy, welfare, and continued existence of some mongoloid psychopath who would've liked to murder or rape your daughter just a few weeks back.

the ultimate cuck.

>>14144523
what is this creep on about? "communism"?

>>14144502
>the state takes its chances with recidivism.
Why bother when you have the technique?

>>14144532
>death penalty
Let me guess, you're a burger? You lot are barbarians. Must be your nigger genes.

>>14144540
because a 100 percent probability of creating a freak with a life not worth living who isn't reformed is worse than taking your chances.

>>14144548
what are you on about you negroid? the entire world has had the death sentence for thousands of years. I'm european btw.

>>14144560
Why? Why risk the lives of others to increase the quality of life of a proved murderer and rapist? How reformed he is on the inside is irrelevant. All that matter is his (lack of an) ability to hurt others

>>14144322
Fascists would have him killed or be indifferent. That was a progressive doctor with progressive politicians attempting to appease the masses. You’re a liberal coward and fool screaming hot air.

>>14144560
nor does it fulfill its aim of reducing violence and cruelty

as you can see by the response to Alex once he's released. He's attacked at all sides by every sector (which has not forgiven him for his crimes) and his time out loose with people is almost worse than his time in prison.

>>14144587
More reason to carry out the technique across the population

>>14144399
In the book he grows bored of it in the last chapter, but that was banned in the uk for awhile. Probably not in alliance with the neo-liberal psychoanalysts who view their job as necessary and good

>>14144574
>has had
That's the point of the matter, nigger. America still has death penalty in 2019.

You are neoliberal. You are an outcome driven capitalist.

You will defend all manner of psychological and social totalitarianism so long as human beings are kept individual agents of economy. You believe in 'prison reform' to create 'productive members of society'. You are the ludovico technique.

Fascists do not reform or overcode adults as such. The fascist also does his unethical experiments on the broken and undesirable, pushing the limits of the human mind, but the fascist then disposes of them.

The liberal can't stand the thought of losing any labor or consumption potential whatsoever.

>>14144575
again, to back up:
my point earlier was that if one were to consider using the ludovico technique it would be expeditionary to just use a bullet instead.

I would ask you: what miracle properties of the ludovico technique make it preferable?

>>14144596
That was the weakest part of the book, a cop-out.

>>14144594
You’re an idiot, grow up. It’s carried out in the real world, but more subtly. Tv, movies, social norms, media, politicians, etc.

>>14144601
Yeah most people say that, but I thought it reinforced the notion that people must change under their own volition not the state mandating change. I liked it though, but thought it wouldn’t be good for the movie.

>>14144599
Allows them the possibility of happy lives contributing to their community without the risk of them hurting others. Also the death penalty has been carried out on innocent people. An innocent person receiving the technique would not be losing out on anything.

>>14144598
This. Based.

>>14144608
Nobody changes of their own volition. All change is imposed from without.

>>14144611
>Allows them the possibility of happy lives contributing to their community without the risk of them hurting others
That’s not intuitively appealing to them though. The devil is content in his wrath. Read more, bureaucrat

>>14144598
>You believe in 'prison reform' to create 'productive members of society'.
I don't care about society or the economy. Only about stopping murderers and rapists.

>>14144597
>le it's current year
who cares. glorious europe had the death penalty, of course amerisharts want to emulate our past fame.

>>14144616
Well he got bored of crime and wanted to settle down. Idk what you’re going on about, because the ending didn’t agree with your ideology it must be bad??

>>14144409
Cities in europe have lots of drunken and drugged beggars praising Allah if you hand them change

>>14144622
Who cares what they want?

>>14144611
The work demonstrated that Alex's life was far from happy. He was anesthetized, castrated, and bullied at every turn. His major passion: Beethoven, was stolen. He is pushed to attempting suicide. Even sex is problematized. There are aspects of the human experience that are necessarily criminal and violent.

Alex decides that life is not worth living post-Ludovico.

>>14144633
The ending doesn't agree with reality

>>14144628
Ok, then point a finger at the murderers in the government on other countries. Grow up if you think stopping an individual murder makes any difference. All you’re doing is eliminating somebody who rebels against the system.

>>14144629
That's a lame excuse, negroid. It's a barbaric practice no matter how you look at it.

>>14144596
It was never 'banned' anywhere. It was omitted from the US version and some others as publishers thought it detracted from the story, which many probably agree with.

>>14144650
Perhaps, but it didn’t seem forced to me or tacked on. It took place several years after the events in the book, so I liked it.

>>14144649
It makes a difference to those who have been murdered.

>>14144639
Of you denounce murderers as humans the next logical step is to denounce people who commit minor transgressions. It may not happen, but it opens the potential. There’s no compelling argument for anything as morality is predicated on sensations, so don’t respond with an autistic epithet or something of the sort.

>>14144654
no it's not soiface. get cucked.

>>14144671
murdered people are dead
perhaps to the families of murdered people or something, you mean?

>>14144645
>Alex decides that life is not worth living post-Ludovico.
Then he is entitled to take his own life if he feels that way.

>>14144649
If you don't care about the victim of the murderer why do you care about the murderer being victimized

>>14144671
Well they’re dead, and that person has to live with knowing they killed someone. Stop removing humanity from people even the most egregious. I also am not saying we should not punish crime, but we shouldn’t force our political agenda on others either. Either kill him, arrest him, or let him free.

>>14144675
The murdered people wouldn't be dead if their murderer had been stopped from committing the crime in the first place.

>>14144674
Jokes on you, I don't have a wife so I can't get cucked.

>>14144691
>>14144690

>>14144319
The point isn't that the government removed his free will, no one gives a shit about Alex, the point is the government decided to use some radical reforming technique instead of just imprisoning or executing the criminal and now the government will subsidize this criminal's lifestyle for the rest of his life regardless of the fact that the reforming technique didn't stick so he will just return to the way he was before, but this time on tax payers dollars.

>>14144417
He means "in the book." The pedo scenes in the book are not depicted in the film.

>>14144697
Were heavily socialized to begin with to know murder is wrong, I’m not sure what further steps you want us to undergo boomer.

>>14144684
The point of what I was saying was to refute the possibility of Alex having a "fulfilling life benefitting the community" (this saying of yours was very clichè).

If you drive someone to suicide, is it not dissimilar to murdering him? Again, we arrive at the same problem: why not just shoot him if that is the outcome?

>>14144319
It is extremely unethical to make men like me cowtow to your slave morality existence just because you harbor ressentiment to those stronger and more powerful than you.

>>14144691
>>14144697
Also
>humanity
Innocent life is of more value than some nebulous concept of humanity

>>14144699
>not having ten wives and cucking all of them with eachother

>>14144722
Why? Because you said so? Most murders are great men of the past lashing out at the ineptitude of modern society with nowhere to place their independent will.

>>14144733
>not inserting your genome into your wife's cells to cuck her very being
you know nothing of genetic mogging

>>14144322
I guess I'm a facist.

>>14144717
>If you drive someone to suicide, is it not dissimilar to murdering him?
No there is no driving. He is given an opportunity to be a citizen. He cannot accept the terms. Let him die.

>>14144420
The "inward redemption" is why leaving out the last chapter really fucked up the message of the movie.

>>14144745
you are like an animal.

>>14144672
>le slippery slope fallacy

>>14144523
>robbing capitalist banks means you hate communism

>>14144739
>Most murders are great mens
Stupid and childish.

>>14144756
This is a notion that is much more merciless than just shooting him, I would argue. The state feels absolved of the implications of capital punishment. True moral responsibility declines.

>>14144548
So Kant and Adam Smith were also barbarians?

>>14144766
Read the entire post fucktard

>>14144597
>ARE YOU EVEN AWARE WHAT YEAR IT IS????

>>14144776
Again read the Fucking entire post. I suppose you think the Us Military fights for justice and freedom and is nothing more than a large scale extreme, you dim-witted conformist

>>14144768
The point was that most communists today are completely non-threatening. They shriek and cower before men who would actually rebel, such as Alex.

They are like the writer whose wife Alex rapes and who later reneges on his deep humanism to avenge himself. Or they are like the lady Alex murders in her home, completely hypocritical, vulgar, and obsessed with their own superiority.

>>14144777
There’s a different between genuine reform and forced reform.

The great thing about the novella is that Alex is supposed to be contemporary humans. How is the history of humanity any different than him?

>>14144780
>le slippery slope fallacy
>le edgelord morality is just feelings

>>14144789
fuck are you gabbling on about.

>>14144798
they cower before trannies, faggots, and niggers. can you imagine Stalin caring about what a fat black woman tells him. LMAO. I actually respect trannies much more than commies, they debase themselves in the same way but trannies actually go all the way with it. some 6 foot guy with stubble berating women for being afraid of him in their bathroom is honestly fairly based

>>14144810
It is. Now grow up, what even is your argument? It’s good for bad people to suffer? The state shouldn’t kill it should force humans to conform to its whims. Humanity shouldn’t grow stronger it should grow weaker?

>>14144814
It means you’re probably a statist that thinks the Us government is absolved from wrongdoing, or you’re an inconsequential rebel sitting smugly in your own complacency distracted by thousands of dollars and a tepid wife

>>14144818
>It’s good for bad people to suffer?
yes

>>14144779
Products of their day. Check the year, kid.

>>14144828
I'm not any of those things.

>>14144830
Ok, but the politicians thought they were helping him. If you want to punish him that’s fine by me, but be honest about it

>>14144830
>>14144836
I’m arguing for the perspective he should have been killed btw

>>14144836
I have been honest.

>>14144836
The politicians and scientists (i.e the advocates of the Ludovico Technique) in A Clockwork Orange undermine the efforts of classical disciplinarians, whom they characterize as barbaric and outdated or "fascist".

>>14144835
Well then why do you want the new-liberal state to indoctrinate their criminals masquerading as a moral authority when they could just rid themselves of the problem by killing him.

>>14144832

>>14144628
Not him, but why is murder bad?
Is the lost life of one person or the rape of one person the only thing that needs to be valued?

>>14144849
Because he might be innocent.

>>14144885
It is the most important thing of all

>>14144885
if murder isnt bad then why do you care about the state murdering the murderer

>>14144923
Now were getting away from the book. I’m talking about only the book lol

>>14144929
I want the state to murder the murderer.

>>14144931
I don't have any moral issue with killing someone like Alex.

>>14144938
Neither do I, but I’m opposed to making him conform through medicine and techniques because we can’t accept that people will naturally be the way they are.

>>14144978
Sounds like a stupid position

>>14144984
It is.

>>14144359
>Buffoonish as the priest is, he offers the most incisive examination and critique of Alex's person and actions.

IIRC, Kubrick has said as much. He was forced to literally explain everything in interviews because brainlets were calling the movie "fascist".

>>14144984
why? The book was just about how even the most twisted human is human. Your sadism makes me think that you would not appreciate it though, so goodbye anons.

>>14144984
>what's wrong with demi-human zombified people hurr durr
>man should adapt to the bullshit technological nanny state, not the other way around

>>14145297
point is, it's a slippery slope right?
first it's murderous impulses being blocked by the ludovico technique, then it's sexual ones, then we arrive at where we are today when pretty much 9 of 10 things are considered racist and problematic.

>>14144319
The Ludovico technique was only used on Alex while his friends, also murdering rapists were recruited into the police. Also, officers talk about how they will soon need space in the prisons for political prisoners.

Whatever happens to Alex is kind of irrelevant, the story is about a totalitarian regime taking over. The Ludovico technique is intended to break the will of political dissidents, as shown in the scene where Alex (who is a test subject) is shown getting abused by his former droogs, now policemen, and being unable to resist at all.

>>14145307
Yes, which is what I've argued before to no recognition. However, even if the slippery slope does not hold and the end is murderers etc., I'd still find it repulsive and distasteful, so the slippery slope argument isn't even needed.

>>14144322
Like clockwork

>>14145458
Orange. Like Clockwork Orange

>>14145458
Human rights, heard of them?

>>14145050
so what if they are human?

>>14145386
>waaah I find it distasteful

>>14145297
nothing wrong with people incapable of rape and murder

>>14144601
it was probably the most honest part of the book too. it wasn't brain chemistry all along, it was social relations which promoted degeneracy

>>14146447
the sticking point was that in order to be "cured" of violence in a clinical fashion he must be "cured" of aesthetic appreciation as well. don't you remember the Beethoven angle?

>>14146507
it is brain chemistry though

>>14146533
in the book or in real life?

>>14146521
so be it

>>14146538
both

>>14146542
no, that's Slaughterhouse 5, and you didn't even get the line right

>>14146551
Was that an attempt at a joke?

>>14146549
in the book the clinical attempts fail, he is able to commit violence again, so you are empirically wrong there. in the real world it is more contentious but just looking at things like rates of depression/suicide there are absolutely factors we consider matters of "brain chemistry" which stem first and foremost from social relations.

>>14146568
The clinical attempts don't fail, they simply reverse the treatment to avoid bad press so you are empirically wrong there

>>14146582
was it even implied that the doctors reversed the process? I thought the guy locking him the attic with Beethovan just broke him

>>14146591
The interior minister literally tells Alex "We have put you right."

>>14144716
The Ludovico Technique