/lit/ - Literature

It doesn't.

Can someone explain in one post how a truly communist would function. Like, what institutions would they have? How would companies be run, how would goods be distributed?

>>14109475
It isnt hard to grasp the basics of it. But there is a science behind the mode of thinking and this takes practice.

We are swamped in the cesspool of capitalist ideology. Of course that takes time to free ourselves from.

People choose the status quo when it suits them. Most often because there is no infrastructure of dissent with which to hold on to, to break from society

>>14109483
" He is a hunter, a fisherman, a herdsman, or a critical critic, and must remain so if he does not want to lose his means of livelihood; while in communist society, where nobody has one exclusive sphere of activity but each can become accomplished in any branch he wishes, society regulates the general production and thus makes it possible for me to do one thing today and another tomorrow, to hunt in the morning, fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, criticise after dinner, just as I have a mind, without ever becoming hunter, fisherman, herdsman or critic."

>>14109475
The basics of Marxist economics are as simple as the basics of Capitalist economics, it's just that Marxist authors tend to be tedious bores.

>>14109475
the USSR is dead and buried, the industrial proletariat no longer exists and most leftist energy has gone over to identity politics driven consumerism. the few remaining Marxists are not an organised political faction able to mobilise the masses or pose a real threat to the establishment, they are a few isolated cranks and middle class grad students.

>>14109492
That makes it sound like nothing would actually get produced. Not saying that to be snarky, I think the principles of socialism are admirable, it's just hard for me to picture how such a society would function outside of a USSR style bureaucracy

>>14109492
So like today I might be a muck farmer but tomorrow I can totally just go code for NASA... This quotation is retarded. Labor is so specialized that it takes half a lifetime of experience to perform certain essential tasks.

why do capitalists keep mentoining marxism? is it threatening?

>>14109519
Same reason people keep talking about flat earth theories, it's just an endlessly fascinating curio of human thought.

>>14109475
orthodox marxists are delusional and openly disliked by most of the left, anyone with half a brain knows sexual politics are upstream from identity politics which are upstream from economics. They got it all backwards. The reason leftists are so triggered by incels is because they expose the true sexual political nature of leftism. Isn't the lgbtranny movement just that? being angry at reality and society for not conforming to your sexual fantasies claiming oppression and demanding action by an authoritarian government which can coerce people to engage in sex with you? I think the most patrician thing one can do is to forsake the politics of sexual victimhood and compulsory hedonism entirely and sublimate all those sadistic and masochistic impulses into a highly aestheticised Fascist movement.

>>14109541
Post age

>>14109475
>when its main opponent, Capitalism only requires an economic textbook?

>>14109475
>Why does Marxist thought require such a vast amount of material to get even a basic grasp
Except it doesn't

>>14109509
You are right, nothing would produce from what anon described. I will rephrase it in an effort to make it better understood. In this case you have to be something.
For example i am a farmer and you are a tailor, i will give you my fruits for free as long as you give me clothes in return. That's how it is supposed to work. I admit simplifying an idea to the size of a sentence makes the idea weaker than it is.
The main weakness i see is this.
Let's say i am lazy, not willing to do anything because we are all equals and if we stripped the rich so we can all have, then you might aswell let me turn into a neet, how is the new society going to treat me?
The best answer i have received so far is this.
They will shake you out of it, in other words they are going to convince me i have to work. In other words we transist from a civil society to a society of work. Communism claims to take care of both natures in every man, his body and his spirit, their second face shows only when you realise that you don't have the right to no, you can't decline, you have to work and offer that's virtuous.
Capitalism vs communism, which one is better, they are both garbage getting shilled by "great thinkers" that milk dollar bills from kid's pockets.

>Is this why for every 5 people exposed to making a choice between supporting the status quo or revolution, 4 support the former?

are you really defending the opinion of the majority? now ask those people if they would prefer to read a book or watch the office for the 100th time.

jesus christ i used to be a hardcore anti-marxist, but now i'd rather hang out with a bunch of commies than some cringy faggot who still supports capitalism in the year of our lord 2019

>>14109475
Communism is just cope and mental gymnastics after their ideology has been debunked, it's like Christianity.

>>14109475
Capitalism is an economic model, to understand it you don't have to go through 150 books/fragments of books/treaties about it written in the last 1000 years. Just like with medicine then, it's kind of applied art of a field, where we don't know EVERYTHING but have decent idea how it works. Communism meanwhile is ideology, where many aspects, including economy has/had to be specified and described.

As for ideology that accompanied capitalism in its ascension - liberalism had a lot written about it and some of that got embedded into the communist mindset(especially as argued for, not necessarily as applied).

Now the obvious thing is that communism, especially marxist one is at this point just a wishful thinking - if you've just read about Marx's model of history, and then delve into sociology and economy of the past 150 years since he was alive you'd never conclude, using Marxist framework, that the next step of dialectics has to be communism the way Marx understood it.

>>14109475
>Why does Marxist thought require such a vast amount of material to get even a basic grasp of its philosophy
Because you need to go deep into a bubble if self delusion for it to make any sense.

>>14109492
How could Marx rail so hard against utopianism and then produce bullshit like this without seeing that it's doomed to fail?

>>14109541
Fags want to fuck other fags who want to fuck them. Incels are fags who want others who don't want to fuck them to fuck them.

>>14109541
This. The most conservative thing on the planet is actually a gang of homosexual BDSM bikers.

>>14109475
Because Marxist thought is advanced economics. Youre comparing algebra to counting.

>>14110309
That doesnt really compare. Algebra is still taken seriously in mathematics, while Marxism isn't in economics.

>>14110326
Can you think of why that is? Perhaps teaching communism to buisness majors would upset the political landscape?

>>14110334
>Marxism is taught everywhere in academia, except economics
>This is a grand conspiracy against Marxism, and totally not because it's an outdated economic model
There actually used to be quite a lot of Marxist economics departments back after WW2, but it fell out of favor when it became clear that the economic models of the USSR and China had giant flaws. Which is what happens all the time to economic or philosophical streams. The only difference is that Marxism claimed to be the final end of economics, so it can't really deal with falling out of favour.

>>14109475
Marxism is just a pretext for Jewish supremacy. It is anti-ethical to all logic, reason, and humanity. The vast amount of material is just there to distract you from that fact.

I live in a Communist country
its alright

>>14110399
Cuba?

>>14110405
Vietnam

>>14110334
Well, in the same sense that teaching Aztec numerology to math majors would upset the scientific landscape.

>>14109541

Based diagnosis, cringe remedy

>>14110409
Tell us how Vietnamese Socialism works for you anon

It's funny how Vietnam is always ignored when it comes to discussion on socialist states

>>14110399
>communist
>country
Choose one.

>>14109475
It's a tactic anon.

>>14109901
>are you really defending the opinion of the majority?
Spoken like a true man of the people. You "ex" commies are no different. You just realised you can't subvert people with your shit and porbably got a job.

>>14110253
Answers the thread. It's not complicated.

>>14110269
Because he was obsessed with industrialism and didn't know jack shit about agriculture. Marxists have a tendency to know nothing about farming whatsoever.

>>14109475
>Capitalism only requires an economic textbook
cOmMieS dON't eVEN knoW bAsIC ecOnOmiCs
cApITAlisM iS fRee tRAde

>>14110737
>Using a reddit meme this obviously
You have to go back. I cant even call you anon, since you are obviously just a redditor.

>sharing is hard to understand

>>14109483
>what institutions would they have?
all the same institutions demanded by the public, now all governed in bottom-up democracy.
>How would companies be run
the shareholders being the workers rather than capital investors

>>14109475
Losers of capitalism want communism, no shit. But if anyone could chose between the two before knowing their merits, race, gender, or any characteristic, they would think capitalism is fair.

>>14110755
>they would think capitalism is fair
Why? What would they find fair about it?

>>14110737
extremely reddit post

>>14110751
all parents tell their children to behave as anarchists

>>14110751
>it's about basic human empathy and death camps

>>14110762
That there are rewards for taking risks, working more hours, taking a long education and so on.

>>14109475
Marxism (or Communism) doesn't exist, there is no definition of it.
You can ask Marxist X what Marxism is and if you present those Ideas to Marxist Y he will disagree with basically anything about them.

There is no coherent definition of either of those terms, which allows an endless discussion about nothing in Marxist circles.

>>14110751
>Peasants make bread
>this bread is mine, i want to trade it for something else
>"this is a sin that is punishable by death"

>>14110748
>>14110765
gO bACk tO r*DdIT soCIaLisT

>>14110767
... until the children want ice cream for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

>>14110762
That the more productive you are, the more you receive. From each according to his abour to each according to his labor

>>14110777
>reddit meme
>reddit opinion
>reddit picture with reddit filename
Kill yourself

>>14110780
>ice cream for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.
that's not anarchism. that's ""free market"" capitalism.

>>14110777
>google filename
>first result is reddit
this is a hilarious self-own

>>14110783
No, it's free choice uncorrected by authority and allowed to run rampant until the inevitable long-term effects set in. Anarchism seems to lack any corrective mechanism for popular stupidity.

>>14110788
>>14110782
>when you dont have an argument so you get triggered by spongebob meme and 7character filenames instead
capitalists

>>14109475
▲
▲ ▲

>>14109597
Yes it does butterfaggot. Stop spreading nonsense in here. No one wants you on this board
>>14110777
Mods please fucking ban this redditor

>>14110499

>Spoken like a true man of the people

you know there's different strains of marxism/socialism right? you know you can support the working class and still be against democracy in its current state? the masses have always been lemmings, and i've never insinuated otherwise.
do you truly believe this neoliberal, hedonistic and degenerated modern world is the best we can get? that it's the way things should be, because it's the way the masses and markets have ordained it?

>>14110802
>Anarchism seems to lack any corrective mechanism for popular stupidity.
repercussions of mistakes in direct democracy are felt by the voters. skin in the game.

>>14110807
The spongebob meme itself is "i have no argument". Now be a good redditor and go play in traffic.

>>14110414
That would be based tho

>>14110366
Imagine believing the Soviet Union or China were socialist post WW2.
Brainlet

>>14110819
>"you sound retarded" is not an argument
it's a statement of fact.

>>14109475
>Why does Marxist thought require such a vast amount of material to get even a basic grasp of its philosophy
It doesn't require a "vast amount of material". This is an internet meme of the youtube generation.
>when its main opponent, Capitalism only requires an economic textbook
You need to understand Marxism in order to understand capitalism, because the former contains within itself the explanation of the latter.
>Is this why for every 5 people exposed to making a choice between supporting the status quo or revolution, 4 support the former?
No, that's because there's no strong communist party yet.

>>14110366
>Marxism is taught everywhere in academia, except economics
It isn't thought anywhere in academia.

>>14110833
Stay off of our board redditor

>>14110822
China is still Marxist
Marxism is big government, state capitalist, "some day we'll transition into the communist utopia", socialism

>>14110822
Doesnt matter. Their downfall was one of the reasons why Marxism in economics also faded, because it became apparent that any planned economy would simply be horribly inefficient.

>>14110809
Based oldfag

>>14110815
Mistakes rarely affect all voters equally, so immediately, factionalism ensues. That's assuming you even get to the point of voting before the cute crocodiles and frogs decide they'd rather have the whole magical tree of plenty for themselves and enslave/massacre the cute dogs and birds.

>>14110771
>>14110781
How would you explain the private property thing?

>>14110846
>Marxism is big government, state capitalist, "some day we'll transition into the communist utopia", socialism
No, that's just regular capitalism.

>>14110842
sTaY oFf OUR[user since 2016] bOaRD reD*tor
get pillowed /r/the_donald boomer faggot

>>14110847
Not only is that wildly false but Russia’s downfall wasn’t because of economics, it was over democratic centralism and a failed German revolution you retarded kike

>>14110838
>It isn't thought anywhere in academia.
Ive had plenty of Marx in my academic curriculum, and i had 2 teachers who openly called themselves Marxists. Marx continues to be regarded as an important thinker in sociology, international relations, literature, and history. In economics he's mostly taught as an important but nowadays outdated thinker.

ITT: 4chan memes so embarrassing we just have to disown them become reddit.

>>14110862
>Russia's downfall wasn't economics
>even though they could hardly produce anything
>even though it became obvious that the US outperformed them so much that they couldn't even cope by devoting even more of their GDP to the millitary
Probably one of the dumbest things ive ever heard in this thread

>>14110858
state capitalism could be considered a next phase of capitalism (or a regression of capitalism) but it aint capitalism.

>>14110860
“Since 2016” does not matter, you are a redditor faggot and don’t belong here.

>>14110846

>China is still Marxist

pfffffff jesus christ man, you truly have no idea what you're talking about, actually look past the symbols and flags and look into their economic model, china is just capitalism without democracy, shit just look at how they penalise and even jail students in uni that try to preach actual marxism.

>>14110879
Yes boomer falsehoods are why the USSR economy bad. You’re looking really smart in front of all your boomer friends with your copy pasted tpusa arguments

>>14110860
What do you call it when a child is smearing shit over himself, and then after you call him out on it he just continues doing it because he's a spiteful little retard? That's what you're doing right now.

>>14110846
2/10, guess you're getting (you)s though

>>14110885
>admitting he arrived on 4chan to suck the tap of 2016 trump pepe memes
gottem

>>14110895
>Stifling economic mismanagement wasnt real
>foodlines weren't real
>a currency so worthless that it couldnt be exchanged for any other wasnt real
do you live in a different reality, tankie?

>>14110904
Not a tankie
Also good memes. None of those occurred because lee “planned economy doesn’t work”. Also >socialist currency

>>14110909
>not a tankie but i still suck up for the USSR
Typical, typical. Bootlicking is something the entire far left spectrum can enjoy
>socialist currency
So the USSR didnt have a currency? Again, have you ever opened a history book?

>>14110909
Well what did cause them then? The USSR produced more food than the US while having a lower population and it still had tons of issues.

>>14110888
>look into their economic model
all their top firms are owned by the government, either directly or through majority shares by the SASAC or the office of finance and it is mandated that all firms have communist party members on the supervisory boards (oversight over director board).
this is completely in line with a state run economy outlined in the Marxist strain of socialist thought.

>>14110933
Is banning worker's rights movements also a part of Marxist doctrine?
What about the free economic zones?

Hello! I am not interested in the discussion but I suppose that there are both left- and right-wing Marxists present here, so I hope to get some qualified (lol) answers: What are some good books (primary or secondary) about Marx's disagreements with social democratic policy and moral universalism? I'm asking this because clearly Marx was totally based.

>>14110952
Apart from the critique of the Gotha program, I mean.

imbecile

>>14110943
when you put in something as dumb as ~state run dictatorship of the proletariat~ as a transition phase, yeah. as long as the CCP continues the pretense of them being socialists with the aim of directing the country towards communism, it fits perfectly in line with the Marxist strain. whether or not this is true or the CCP is just a party-based monarchy only a thousand year history can tell.
Anarchism is obviously superior since it cannot be subverted in such an easy way.

Marxists require that you only read a few pamphlets, at most, if you agree with them, if you disagree you are required to read the entire works of Marx and Engels.

>every Marx thread

>>14111085
>facebook filename

>>14109475
Honest question for the Marxists on this board...
I'm assuming you take issue with the absurdly wealthy individuals controlling capitalist societies. Why do you believe that these people will disappear under communism? Wouldn't they simply adjust their approach to maintain their control? Isn't this exactly what happened in Russia?
I don't think that you could have a functional Marxist society without a fundamental change in human nature. Explain to me why I'm wrong.

It requires several novel-length books worth of nonsense and misdirection to condition your mind to a point to where communism makes any sense to you. And even then, it only makes sense to you if you're assuming you're pic related.

>>14111092
I post a Tupac meme and that's your quibble?

>>14111234

>>14110810
It does get complicated but it’s not a requirement to understand its very simple premise and absolute need

>>14109492
airy fairy nonsense no wonder it doesn't work.

>>14111470
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_communist_regimes
Ask the 100+ million people who died under communist regimes what they think.

Basic socialist philosophy: From each according to their ability, to each according to their need.
Basic capitalist philosophy: From each according to their need, to each according to their capital.

>>14111497
capitalist: muh 100 million landlords
also capitalist: helicopter rides hyuk hyuk hyuk

>>14111512
>b-but capitalism is bad too
That's why you go for a third position that is neither capitalism nor communism and treads outside of the comfort zone of both.

>>14111512
>muh 100 million landlords
Wow what a surprise that a commie would dehumanize someone who disagrees with them and then murder them like a coward. No different than the "punch a nazi" crowd.

>>14111539
>fascism definitely never resulted in any mass genocides
real chinstroke there

>>14111543
>dehumanize
>landlord
you're assuming they were human to begin with.

>>14111548
A genocide can only be perpetrated against human beings. Jews aren't humans, therefore the holocaust wasn't a genocide.

>>14111548
There is a difference between forcing a long, painfully drawn out death by starvation onto innocents and giving malicious conmen a just punishment.

>>14111555
Just proving my point. You really think all those peasants who didn't agree with communist faggotry where landlords? Absolutely delusional.

>>14111558
>painfully drawn out death by starvation onto innocents
down with capitalism

>>14110882
>le squidward says le fuck le fascism! xDDDD

>>14111503
Basic anarchist philosophy: No gods, no masters.
Basic capitalist philosophy: No gods, no masters. Just do it (swoosh)

>>14111580
> blaming the deaths of bumfuckafrica onto capitalism
> when more of the factors from western countries influencing their situation come from communism than otherwise
It's quite simple. Niggers reproduce as much as they can and thus WILL ALWAYS suffer from famine. You can only influence how many of them suffer from starvation. If you feed them, there will be more of them. Ergo more will suffer from starvation. Socialists feed them, and thus cause more starvation. So any African death counts go onto the communist count.
But I can't help but notice you shifting the goalpost back from the third position to muh capitalism.
What's with all these strict politics threads on the literature board anyway?

>muh land
btfo 200 years ago
(but democracy gets in the way of good policy sometimes)
>muh factories
losers romanticizing low iq work
>muh agriculture
losers romanticizing farming
>muh exploitation
losers who can't even use marx's own technical language properly

>>14111493
>>14111195
>>14109659
>>14109514
>>14109509
>>14109483
Marx’s Capital was a critique of capitalism as it was in the 1800s. Anyone with half a brain would recognize that it isn’t 100% applicable to modern day capitalism because capitalism has advanced and changed for about 170 years since Marx wrote Capital. That being said, since Marxism is not a dogma, other marxists have adjusted to modern capital and have critiqued it accordingly. If you want to fully understand what capitalism is today (as seen by marxists) and what communism would look like today (as seen by marxists) than you ought to read Mark Fischer, Guy Debord, and so on. Quit using basic 5th grade history teacher level arguments against an actual living philosophy that has been in constant development and change for almost two centuries.

>>14110253
>reading is bad when I say it is
B8

>>14111512
>Communism is responsible for millions of death
>"YEAH BUT PEOPLE ALSO DIE UNDER CAPITALISM"
When will you niggers realize that this doesn't make communism any more appealing? Just because capitalism has flaws doesn't mean communism is suddenly a good idea.

>>14109475
>Marxist thought requires vast amount of material
No. Formulating the theory did require - to mask it as a science. However, it's a desire.
>for every 5 people exposed to making a choice between supporting the status quo or revolution, 4 support the former
Only a fraction of people are interested in any particular phenomenon, be it politics, warfare, sports etc. in a manner in which it becomes interactive.
Even most self-professed 'revolutionaries' are not such, but are just tagging along because it seems cool or trendy.

>>14111512
Poverty is a result of a dysfuncional mental state, health or intellect.

>>14111660
>implying the USSR and other Leninist states were communist in the Marxist sense
Read or kys

>>14109475
It really doesn’t. If it did, why are some many random people marxists.

You can summarize the basics of Marxist socialism in a pamphlet (as Marx and Engles did), but like understanding the liberal democratic capitalist position fully, there is a lot more to it.

Sure you can understand the basics of neo-classical economics in one economics textbook, but am I wrong in thinking that people with degrees in economics read considerably more than a single microeconomics textbook? The whole system is considerably larger and more difficult to understand. And that’s just the economic logic of it, completely ignoring the normative political philosophy that comes along with being a liberal capitalist. But does ever liberal actually need to have read Locke and/or Rawls as well?

>>14111663
you could argue Marc's philosophical texts are desire more than science, but the thing about capital is that it formulated several theorems (particularly the tendency of the rate of profit to fall) that very closely correlate with real world profit falls. and marx's theory of profit is something you can verify with access to a large amount of corporate data.
the fact of the matter is that capital, while not a scientific text in the way we might think of them today, nonetheless described capitalism accurately and has serious explanatory for how the system works, at least more so than neoclassical econ (developed as a reaction to marx being right) does.

>>14111753
to add to this post, refer to this recently published blog post that confirms marx's theorems on the rate of profit:

https://thenextrecession.wordpress.com/2019/11/04/us-rate-of-profit-measures-for-2018/

>>14111660
the key point in comparing the death counts is that capitalism dwarfs communism in systemic homicide.
which makes perfect sense when you consider that communism is renowned for murdering the upperclass while capitalism crushes the lowerclass. you're only mad because you identify more with billionaires than the homeless.

>>14111665

>>14111958
>>14111961
Why do you keep dumping facebook/reddit tier pics and think you're convincing anyone? This is fucking embarrassing, lad.
Go back to whatever boomer shithole you crawled out of

>>14111972
>projecting
ok boomer

>>14111981
>using poliical facebook groups
>not a boomer
Sure, boomer

>>14111972
gotta agree with this anon.

this may be an in-the-closet-are-traps-gay hentai site, but even this boomer's faggotry is too much to not be called out on

>>14111958
>socialism. government sanctioned instituted murder and famines.
>capitalism. shit happens, like poor people going through garbage cans, but at the very least isn't implemented via some official government policy
>socialism. murder all upperclass, and everyone that's against us, regardless of class
>capitalism. crush the lowerclass, but not murder. more like apathetic "who gives a shit, not my problem."
>socialism. don't like it? here's the firing squad.
>capitalism. don't like it? go find another job, or learn a skill, or move to a more favorable labor market location.

>>14111665
I respectfully disagree. You sound like a firstworlder tho

>>14111639
This didnt answer my question. How does Marx incentivize labor? What is to motivate the average man, who cares far more about his own personal circumstances than the welfare of society, to work harder under communism?
>inb4 capitalism doesn't motivate him either
I'm not defending capitalism, I'm asking you to justify your ideology.

>>14109475
Reading Marx for the vast majority of people is too hard, too much time consuming, and contrary to their cherished intellectual laziness. It's better and easier to just rant against Marxism, saying it's useless crazy commie shit. ((Read 2000 pages of Das Kapital? Why? Because it's useless commie propaganda.))

>>14109499
Then socialists need to learn how to write in a more engaging style and stop being long winded bores.

>>14112341
Das Kapital is mostly useless, though.
ALso good luck convincing proles when they cant/wont read your precious tome.

>>14112313
gotta agree with anon here. why is that so few communists can actually provide some basic explanations whenever anyone dives even just a little under the surface by asking questions such as OP's?
its always retorted with shit like
>men, you just slave to the system, youll never understand
or
>here are 5 books that are 300 pages long, go read this, and make sure to write an essay on each chapter, and then we can discuss

it's one thing to say "please go read some basic articles so we at least have some of the contextual information established"
its another to hide behind "duh, just go read all this shit and get back to me"
no one's asking this cheeky cunt for a 4D chess level of dialogue here

also, how does marxisim deal with the fact that capitlistic societies seem to be much more able to generate wealth, and a portion of that wealth is then invested in military capabilities, and that for the vast majority of human history, realism has been the defining line of thought for international affairs?
>good job comrades, we have achieved communism.
>but also we're all poor compared to other nations, but at least we're equally poor
>oh no, here comes the super-tank.
>comrade, how are we to initiate a world-wide proletariat revolution when we only have horses and they have tanks?
>also comrade, how viable is communism if we are the only ones to adopt it? can communism survive without widespread adoption? how do we defend against "might makes right"?

>>14112313
> What is to motivate the average man, who cares far more about his own personal circumstances than the welfare of society, to work harder under communism?
>far more about his own personal circumstances
That's your average man under Capitalism. Under primitive communism or even modern communism (E.G Huterrites), it's the exact opposite. It's selling his workforce, and being paid individually a wage in exchange of his workforce, which creates individualism. Individualism is not something natural to homo sapiens. That's your perception of reality and nature under Capitalism.

>>14112372
>hutterites are modern communism

>>14112372
in primitive societies society was a personal circumstance, members of society knew each other on a personal level, that is why the welfare to society was sought, personal incentive.

>>14112372
but how do you explain the fact that throughout all of history, personal gain seems to be the overriding element running through everything and anything.
>Third Reich, personal gain for the fatherland
>Romans, personal gain for Rome
>random Native American tribe, personal gain for us because fuck that other tribe and what they claim is the border (yeah, they didn't really operate with borders, but they did have disputes about which area to hunt and shit)

until the world shifts to a sense of globalism (despite the fact that nationalism is on the rise), i dont see how this doesnt just break down to "personal gain to my favored tribe"
also doesnt change the fact that interwoven in all of these larger pictures under smaller denominations of "personal gain for my community, for my friends and family, for me"

>if men were angels, government wouldnt be necessary - some dead old white guy
>Cain and Abel, proof that individuals from even way back still feel shit when they compare what they have with their neighbors, or gasp, even a blood brother
lets not kid ourselves here. most of us are closer to Cain than Abel (sure would be nice to have better clothes, sure would be nice to have X followers on instagram, sure would be nice if i was as academically influential as Professor X)

>>14110291
nobody cares about fags anymore, the face of the fag movement is incel transbians who want to force lesbian women to have sex with them

>>14112400
Third reich and roman are long after the neolitic revolution and the start of exchange value.
About native american tribe, i do no contest, but it's a violence inflicted toward an other tribe. Not a violence inflicted inside the tribe.
>until the world shifts to a sense of globalism (despite the fact that nationalism is on the rise), i dont see how this doesnt just break down to "personal gain to my favored tribe"
Agree. That's the prophecy of exchange value. It makes degenerates humans, but in the end, it erase antagonisms. Nothing can stop it really. For the better or for the worse.

>>14112394
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutterites#Community_ownership

>>14112313
Thats what happened in Venezuela.

>inb4 muh poverty and inflation
Im not talking about that, Chavez tried his best to do the right thing but the people failed, my dad went there in the epitome of socialism and everything was ok; a few months later people refused to work because they had almost everything at hand.
Just imagine the neet ideology at grand scale with tendies and mommies

>>14112540
(...) By the way, in Capitalism, personal gain to my favored tribe is reversed. As you can see, Capitalism reverse everything, including personal gain to my favored tribe. That's why in late stage Capitalism, the elite make millions of third worlders come in order to exploit their cheap workforce. So the principle in Capitalism is not to favor the tribe, but to literally replace it. That's what's happening. But people are too weak to open their eyes. Red pills are hard to swallow.

>>14112372
I disagree, completely. That's the average man throughout history. The only exceptions to this rule occur in small societies where everyone knows everyone else, and so fear of shame becomes the motivating factor, or in larger societies facing an existential threat.
Communism could be successfully implemented if a 250 mile wide meteor was going to hit Earth, and mankind needed to work together to stop it. Aside from that, it's a pipe dream.

>>14111512
>Global agricultural production can feed 1.18 times the global population
I actually am interested in reading the source of this claim. Often times I find these kinds of metrics are pulled from raw production measures, and do not account for the largest and most important part of the economy: logistics.

I'd be very, very interested in reading a white paper that used a complex topological model to calculate the capacity for distribution of food and the costs associated with it, accounting for transport networks, population distribution, environment, probabilistic factors of failure (and contingency plans), etc. while also organizing it in such a way to minimize environmental impact.

I want to see a new theory of logistics that plays to the strengths of marxian thought.

>>14112041
This. It seems that marxism can only work in the minds of the socialist leaders when the masses are thouroughly indoctrinated into it's delusion. They put too much of their legitimacy in the hands of the people. They're just another universalist religion

>>14109475
There are multiple proposed alternative economic system from different people and organizations, like from Parecon, Paul Cockshott, Paul Mattick, Ernest Mandel, Project Cybersyn, Bookchin to some extent and a few more. You can't await from everyone to know a solution to x detail under Communism.

>>14112590
>That's the average man throughout history
So since 12000 years ago.
>The only exceptions to this rule occur in small societies where everyone knows everyone else, and so fear of shame becomes the motivating factor, or in larger societies facing an existential threat.
Agree. But also, civilization is not the natural state of humans. It's something which started with division of labor and exchange value. Before, people lived in Gens, which were basically communist families. The Gens completely disappear real recently, from a few thousand year in greece, to the 5-6 century CE in Germany, to the last century in native americans. Some primitive tribes still have a Gens like organization. And Hutterites seem to be some kind of modern Gens. Indeed i just noticed that the organization of the Hutterites and the native americans are surprisingly alike.

>>14112579
Boomer tier arguement.
That's a complete ignorance towards the real cause of Venezuela's crisis, which was the flooding of the oil market by Saudi Arabia. Venezuela tried to resist Globalism by not letting itself be hoarded by foreign companies, instead they nationalized their oil and focused more on export.

>>14112550
>community ownership means communism
>even though it's an extremely small community bound together by religion and one ethnicity is evidence that a worldwide 'commune' of atheist strangers could also work.
Also most of your comrades would shit on them for not being true communism. It's hard to argue with commies considering every single one of them has a totally different view on what communism really is.

>>14112661
and before that, there was, as described by an imaginary orange tiger, a state of nature described as
>nasty, brutish, and short

your idea of pre-civilization, basking in the grace of nature idea rests on the fundamental assumption that most humans arent selfish pricks trying to fulfill their selfish and basic desires

no one will know what the state of nature actually was like, pre-civilization, but i really dont see it wouldnt be characterized by conflict

also, as another anon pointed out, this shit would work on the small scale. theres a reason you care about your friend whos been dumpster diving for food because his crack addict mom sold food stamps for drugs, but cant be arsed to give two shits about some starving african far far away

scale, at a certain point, drastically changes "things"
>owe bank $100, you have a problem
>owe bank $1 million, bank has a problem

>>14109475
I'll just shoot commies until I myself get shot LMAO

>>14112700
>It's hard to argue with commies considering every single one of them has a totally different view on what communism really is.
Isn't the far right also like this? Between royalists, Nazis, nationalists, traditionalist, eco-fascist etc...
In any case, Marx was anti-Statist, against exchange value, wage labor, and for the free association of workers.
>that a worldwide 'commune' of atheist strangers could also work.
Don't worry, Capitalism is creating the universal idiot. Not even joking.

>>14110366
Surely has nothing to do with the Cold War era's commie suppression

>>14112737
>Isn't the far right also like this? Between royalists, Nazis, nationalists, traditionalist, eco-fascist etc...
No, because they are open in that they are openly non-universalistic, as opposed to Marxism, which is supposedly a universal science. The far right do fight amongst themselves, but it's not about doctrinal differences, because there is no universal doctrine.
>Don't worry, Capitalism is creating the universal idiot. Not even joking.
That's not going to make a worldwide commune any more feasible. Communal ownership doesnt work for people whom you dont know directly., which is restricted to roughly 150 people. After that, you'll need hierarchy and systems of authority that will be 'alienating' in the Marxist sense.

>>14112816
>After that, you'll need hierarchy and systems of authority that will be 'alienating' in the Marxist sense.
Nope, you'll need thrustless networks.

>Where the world comes in my way—and it comes in my way everywhere—I consume it to quiet the hunger of my egoism. For me you are nothing but—my food, even as I too am fed upon and turned to use by you. We have only one relation to each other, that of usableness, of utility, of use. We owe each other nothing, for what I seem to owe you I owe at most to myself. If I show you a cheery air in order to cheer you likewise, then your cheeriness is of consequence to me, and my air serves my wish; to a thousand others, whom I do not aim to cheer, I do not show it.

stirner's writing has aged much better than marx's, whose inane neurotically motivated cope laced drivel has to be excused and apologized for even by its most ardent adherents >>14111639

>>14109541
very based

>>14109597
kys fat tranny, end yourself

>>14112816
>After that, you'll need hierarchy and systems of authority that will be 'alienating' in the Marxist sense.
Marxists believe that the behaviors and impulses that require those systems are themselves a product of capitalism, i.e, that you do not need to change man you merely need to change his society. the need for a transitionary period is where leninism comes into play.

I think we can agree though, no matter what your personal politics are, that anarkiddies are retarded for exactly that reason.

>>14110753
spooktastic post

>>14110853
you gain additional stewardship over property (directly, via confidence in your or you and your accomplices' management, via fiat currency - aka the imperfect, distributed consensus of market forces) by proving you are able to define goals and exert your will over the material, consistently, relative to others. the more you fail, relative to others, the less stewardship you are given until you lose stewardship of yourself.

... as opposed to being given stewardship over goals themselves, determined by centralized consensus (>muh "groups of workers just like vote on what is best somehow lmao just do it")

>>14112959
lol Stirner was btfo'd by Marx in the german ideology and left in the dustbin of history

>>14109475
100 years ago being a commie was edgy and avant-garde and fashionable. Now it is just absolutely ludicrous, and they all get dabbed on by minorities and feminists telling them to check their privilege anyway.

>>14110753
Is there a mechanism for forming new institutions? How do institutions respond to changes in public demand. How do you even quantify public demand without a pricing mechanism?

So all companies are mob rule democracies? Do democracies allocate resources efficently?

>>14111639
Two centuries of theory crafting and making excuses, admirable

>>14114180
you wish bud
seethers never btfo anyone

>>14112754
Yeah it came back in every other part of academia though

>>14109475
Capitalism doesn’t even require a textbook, it’s just how people always behave.

Any system in which the free exchange of goods and services can occur eventually just becomes capitalism. Viewing it as an ideology is a mistake.

>>14109475
I think you have a very different standard for what constitutes "a basic grasp" regarding communism and capitalism. Also, consider that communism is an economic plan and a governmental plan coupled together while capitalism is only the economic adjoiner to the governance system of liberalism.

>>14110753
Idiotic and retarded.

>>14114600
Capitalism is a mode of production. Before there was slavery mode of production and feudal mode of production.
In the future, after the final fall of the rate of profit, you'll say communism doesn't even require a textbook, it's just how people always behave.

>>14115640
Yeah I'm sure as scarcity increases and more useless people clutter the Earth a primary concern will be keeping everyone fed and distributing good via some kind of central command run by "workers"

>>14114600
>just how people behave
That's feudalism

>>14114180
he really wasnt

>>14110819
The top left one is way better looking than the rest of the people in the image

>>14114600
stupidest comment of the day

>>14114600
Isn't this kind of what Nick Land says, if you want something done well it will be done via capitalism and people want things done well, so it's a natural force.. forgive me if I recall this incorrectly I haven't read his schizo writing in a while

>>14109475
1 in 5? More like 1 in 10000.

>>14109541
Based and g/acc-pilled.

Marxism is attempting to essentially reprogram how you interpret the world. It goes against, in every possible way, how Capitalist ideology presents things like causation, agitation, history and thought itself. You have to also remember that Capital was originally going to be 12 volumes long, not just 3. It's a total world reconfiguration whose analysis is to
A) break down how capitalism works in every single capacity, from its material grounding to its most subtle ideological effects on culture and the psyche
B) lay out a systematic critique of this system, from how it affects the proletariat, to internal economic contradictions, to everyday alienations
C) use the Dialectical Materialist program to anticipate the next mode of human production (while knowing that this system itself cannot, from our perspective, be in any way actually articulable.)

tl;dr it's dense, expansive, and complicated

>>14115640
>In the future, after the final fall of the rate of profit, you'll say communism

>>14116041

>>14115849
That's not how it works.

>>14116471
Damn I'm convinced, following ContraPoints now

>>14116696
>He thinks the opposite of the far right of the Capital, is the far left of the Capital.