/lit/ - Literature

>>14102850
its moral to kill animals because i like it

>>14102850
we have more mental energy due to being properly fed

>>14102850
Morality is a social construct created by the people in power to keep the plebians in line

>>14102850
Morality is a spook, only the things that can be enforced are in any way legitimate.

>>14102855
>the unabashed hedonist

>>14102859
>the "calories are an intrinsic good" guy

>>14102862
>the naive relativist

>>14102866
>the might is right cuck

All we need is someone to mention slave morality and I'll have bingo

>>14102850
Animals are not people. They do not have souls. Stop equating them with humans and degrading yourself.

That being said, all life is precious and should not be needlessly wasted. Be a good steward to all wildlife and enjoy its flesh and labors while giving thanks to God for such wonderful gifts.

Ethics are a spook in the first place

>>14102875
Malnourished vegan incapable of making arguments, based

>>14102876
>wants a return to agrarian society
Just stop eating meat, civilisation is better now than it ever has been.

>>14102850
Only things I find beauty in should exist, so we should do away with industrial slaughter and instead have a worker caste which droves cattle for me across grazing lands for my eventual consumption

>>14102850
I'm an anti-natalist when it comes to other animals than humans.

>>14102895
Finally, a good fucking idea.
Wouldn't it be nice if people could retire from meaningless wageslavery in cities and be shepherds or cowboys?

All animals are equal to be eaten. Some a better since they're good to eat. Dogs have low bioavailability. Cows have high bioavailability. But equal nevertheless.

>>14102850
Your morality is based entirely on sentiment, which is the result of your failed upbringing. You do not like killing, blood, death, corpses, feces etc. and find them disgusting merely because you have not been exposed to them suffieciently. Kids initially find sex disgusting, but they overcome this fear and disgust fairly quickly with exposure aside from a pathological minority. You are still at this stage when it comes to killing animals.

GROW UP.

>>14102894
That's not what I implied at all.

>>14102933
>Be a good steward to all wildlife and enjoy its flesh and labors
Any justification of this principle requires a return, as it is obvious to even the most distracted that current treatment of livestock is not en par with Gods instruction.

>>14102883
Claims aren't arguments.

>>14102923
You can watch gore videos without blinking and still be bothered about industrial farming.

>>14102948
>Gods instruction
good joke

>>14102948
Treating livestock with some level of decency does not necessitate a return to agrarian society.
Do you have no imagination whatsoever?

What I don't understand is why some people think raising a small flock of animals to slaughter and eat them is horrible yet are totally ok with people hunting deers and moose in the forest is ok.

Tell me vegan. How do you get vitamins without supplementation?

Try survive without b12.

>>14102875
>the naive relativist
More like the common sense realist. Please point to us the evidence for objective moral values and duties.

>>14102948
what are god's instructions?

>>14102977
More than 150 billion animals are slaughtered every year, It's pretty hard to imagine any system as efficient as we have now that doesn't look like Belzec.

>>14102971
Exactly, you've done nothing but make claims, you haven't made an argument

>>14103038
Neither did anyone I was responding to. Again, a claim that all morals are spooks or that industrial farming justified by the energy density of meat are not arguments, they are claims.

>>14102876
Why don't animals have souls? Why is the smartest, most compassionate orangutan still inferior to a literal chair-bound mentally deformed abnormality who should by any rights have been aborted? It'a unthinking Humanity, Fuck Yeah! garbage, it's cope.

I've definitely met people who were more worthless and soulless than your average pig, cow, or dog. The logic of meat eating leads naturally to cannibalism, which they've already embraced on industrial scale in china. How long until the west follows suit?

>>14103043
>You people are immoral
>morality doesnt exist
>n-no thats a claim not an argument you cant say that!
Why did you even make this thread?

>>14102979
Because raising a thing with the intention of killing it is inhumane. Hunting also has the benefit of controlling overpopulation.
I dislike both, and would rather we reintroduced the predators we hunted to local extinction.

>>14103074
I didn't make the thread. I was just listing the robots reading off their scripts that threads like this always provoke. And OP wasn't even saying that, just pointing out the absurdity of their thought process.

>>14103061
Naive anthropocentrism probably peddled by 40Kiddies, unironically.

>>14103074
>illiterate degenerate

>>14103087
>>14103085
Based vegan shitposters, see you in 10 years

>>14103061
Metacognition has been observed in birds. When my cat adjusts her legs to a more comfortable position when she's trying to sleep, she prefers having one leg this way and one leg that way. It's not s life or death situation by any means, there is no conceivable selection pressure that could come to bear on it. It's not as if she is in danger of constricting her heart or something by sleeping in an awkward position.

How could an empty bundle of instincts mechanically responding to an environment possibly develop this kind of preference? It can't.

>>14103097
Damn, a meme, you got us

God put animals here for us to eat
People shouldn't be cruel to them though

>>14102850
How about morality of killing vegitables? If you don't consider them living beings then how do you think they grow? If you dont hear them skreaming when you cut them is justification for you do end their lives?

>>14102850
It’s immoral to raise animals in a revolving door of death system where 99.99% of the people who eat the animals aren’t the ones who killed them and where there is no respect for the slain beasts. If you want I eat meat, kill the animal yourself and take on the burden of it’s life. Also show it respect as you kill it and eat it and all the steps in between. It’s a living being that helped you to survive, show it the respect it deserves.

>>14102850
>and their existence is better than a world in which they never got to live at all
this is so retarded

>>14103876
Assuming that the individual is the most important thing alive, eating vegetables is still the best way to minimize overall suffering, since cows eat huge quantities of food before it's killed for your benefit. Cut out the middleman and what's left is less suffering for vegetables and less suffering for cows.

It is moral to kill pigs as they are evil satanic animals who practice cannibalism and eat humans

>>14103097
Because all the meat eaters will have died from cancer, you mean?

>>14103098
I'm the anon you're responding to. If it's not obvious, we agree; I'm saying that equating soul to intellect is stupid.

>>14103978
Humans do that too, though

does anyone have that webm of a sloth or something like that accepting death as it gets killed by another animal? it used to be posted a lot on feels threads

>>14102875
based bingoposter

>>14103085
>I didn't make the thread. I was just listing the robots reading off their scripts that threads like this always provoke.
>i was only pretending to be retarded guys, haha

>>14104015
Sad!

>>14102850
There is some logic to that argument though, which you simply refuse to engage with.

I do believe though that farming should be much more considerate and respectful towards animals in life and at slaughter. We have the technology to do better, but it would be less profitable (and affordable). If only there weren't so many humans, we could all have nice things like meat without resorting to immoral intensive farming practices.

>>14102850
How about this: animals are lesser life forms, they taste good, and are nutritious.

There isn’t a moral argument against eating meat other than a slave one.

>its moral to kill animals because i like it
>Morality is a social construct created by the people in power to keep the plebians in line
>Morality is a spook, only the things that can be enforced are in any way legitimate.
Now come on, anons - where would this kind of thinking get us? Oh right, it would get us where we are now: hell on earth.

>>14102875
Based

>>14102875
you got them all. wow >>14104139

>>14104338
And yet he can’t refute anything. Humans are higher forms of life and, more importantly, they’re our forms. The imperative is on doing what’s best for ourselves, even at the expense of the other.

>>14104347
>The imperative is on doing what’s best for ourselves, even at the expense of the other.
do you mind defining what this 'imperative' of the species is supposed to be, cause I'm clearly not following it ?also, do you even have some type of comprehensive philosophical belief? I can understand how atheists/hedonists don't give a shit about harming animals, but people who are along the lines of Christianity, Plato, Kant, Schopenhauer and such thinkers, are a monument of stupidity if they're not vegan in the current day and age.
Tolstoy, for example, was vegan.

Is it moral to kill stray cats to save the vastly larger amount of wildlife they kill?

Does the human population in the Faroe Islands and other non-arable lands deserve to starve to preserve the life of other animals?

Do animal rights apply to the termites destroying my house, or the billions of other insects that are killed by human infrastructure? Should areas with ants be protected to prevent the chance of any ant being inadvertently stepped on? At what minimum size and level of cuteness does a living being begin to afford these rights to life?

Veganism and 'animal rights' is idealistic bullshit with no bearing in reality and no consistent ethics. When a monkey invents space travel, or a cow creates a great work of art/literature, maybe you'll have a point.

>>14104374
>dude futility lmao
when you buy meat, for example, you're always choosing between less suffering and more suffering. and that is a statistical fact. not consuming animal products produces less suffering (be it that of cows, pigs, chickens, fish, ants, bugs or whatever you want).

>>14102875
>Samefagging this hard

>>14104365
>do you mind defining what this 'imperative' of the species is supposed to be
Doing what’s best for ourselves, even at the expense of the other.

>>14104407
Not that, I'm asking for a scientific basis of your so-called 'imperative'. Do you mean just plain 'instinct'? Because if so, I'd guess you'd have no problem if anyone around you were following his most bare instincts, going around killing, raping, stealing and so on. It would be pretty bad for you, but it still wouldn't be immoral, right?

>>14102850
Where do you get off thinking this has anything to do with /lit/? Do you always keep your head this far up your ass?

>>14104365
I don’t know about an atheist, but I’m certainly not any kind of christain. I view Godhood as a de facto title; the closest thing to omnipotence in a given system.
In that vein, humans are rising towards godhood. I believe that to be the point of humanity. Gain mastery of the environment, where harmony is a means rather an ends. Where harmony isn’t the most efficient, force will do.

Slave morality is a very real phenomenon and it has infected the west.

>>14104407
Heh

>>14104416
I’m saying there is no moral imperative to do anything that doesn’t benefit us. It just so happens that meat is a benefit.

I think factory farming is gross, but only because it produces shit meat. A happy, healthy animal likely produces the best meat.
If it happened that torturing an animal produced even better meat, then we should do that.

How about you give an argument, from first principles, on why I shouldn’t eat meat.

>>14104427
>choosing less suffering rather than more suffering is slave morality
do you even know what you're discussing right now or you just came to make your little remark about 'oh how the west has fallen'?

>>14102923
This.

>>14104445
>If it happened that torturing an animal produced even better meat, then we should do that.
any such argument would start from the assumption/axiom that transcendence exists and humans are not inherently and infinitely more valuable than another life form. I think we are here to achieve as much divinity as we can, through art and contemplation (not war, power and conquer), if we do that to a certain extent we reach a higher metaphysical sentience and grace.
since you said that
>If it happened that torturing an animal produced even better meat, then we should do that.
i doubt you'd agree with any of what i've said. so I'll close the discussion with you by saying that I wish I could see your face when you'll know fear and powerlessness. I do not worry about those who die or have died at your hand or mine. In death, every such being will reach its grace if he is worthy of it, even if you or me may not be. The others will only know a mix of mud and blood.

>>14104139
>>14104347
If you're going to pretend you're /lit/ you should at least read Kant's wikipedia page.
If it is moral for higher life forms to eat lower life forms, then it is moral for advanced aliens to eat humans. It's even moral for high IQ people to eat low IQ people.

eat less meat for the benefit of the environment. pretty simple

get out of hierarchical thinking and start thinking rhizomatically. other beings of this earth have their own unique ways and modes of aesthetic experience and if we don't recognize that and learn to live together with them in relationships that don't espouse ideologies of hierarchy there will be dire consequences which have already begun.

>>14104139
Bingo!

>animals are lesser life forms

Sure, they're totally at one with their environment, while you can't go one minute of no stimulation without fidgeting in your seat.

>>14104445
>If it happened that torturing an animal produced even better meat, then we should do that.

Subhuman.

>>14104987
Based.

>>14104172
>Now come on, anons - where would this kind of thinking get us? Oh right, it would get us where we are now: hell on earth.

Yup, all according to keikaku

Chloroplastizing humanity is the only ethical future. Photosynthesis is the best way to consume energy.

>>14105066
BASED

I'm curious about the demographic overlap between meat eaters and coomers. I'm guessing it's 100%. They employ the exact same reactive, triggered arguments

>>14102850
I like mental gymnastics, let's do a quick warmup. It is instictive to animals killing each other if they have the need to feed or protect themselves. Humans are also animals with their own insticts, why should we opress them? And even if the answer is moral and you tell me that i am taking a life away, then sure you are right, this life solely existed in the first place to be consumed this way i am not harming the eco chain. Also why should your idea limit my freedom on food choices, i don't like vegetables.
Am i then harming myself because meat now is unhealthy? Consider how many unhealthy things are surrounding us, meat should be the last of our concerns.

>>14105476
the fact that you even felt smung writing this logically abysmal post really shows the demographic of lit

>>14105476
>other lives exist so I can consume them

>>14105491
Didnt feel smug to be honest, i don't really care about arguing on food choices, i just eat what i enjoy and if that's meat then let me have my heart attack peacefully.
I would have felt smug if i was able to sneak in there at least one line from hannibal.
>>14105496
>you

>>14102850
Sounds like you've been reading some retarded carnivores and need a more cultured and substantial viewpoint on the ethics of eating meat.

So why don't you go ask a lion?

>>14102850
traditional farms are okay, it's industrial scale facilies that are cruel to no end.
killing a cow after a life of care, pastures and spacious barns is at least somewhat just.

>>14102917
i've been shilling farmwork for a couple of weeks now, hope some neets and doomers have at least considered it.

>>14104987
Best post itt. Everyone else here is underage and underread.

>>14102850
1) They’re going to die anyway.
2) It is healthy to eat meat
3) We should always do that which is good for us

It’s on you to show that it isn’t good to eat meat.

>>14104987
absolutely and irrefutably based.

anon, look me in the eye and say loudly that you truly think animals have no soul.
even the neighbour's dog you used to play with. that stray cat you fed once which kept rubbing on your legs in gratitude. pets in contact zoos with the saddest eyes who still don't dare to bite the children. the horses that carried your ancestors and civilization. the elephants trumpeting in joy as they're freed from circus slavery. monkeys mourning the death of robotic monkey.

after all, they're just soulless and unsentient creatures for us to rule. right?

>>14105790
> monkeys mourning the death of robotic monkey
Everyone itt must watch this. https://youtu.be/_8ZVl2x-euA

It is ethical to kill animals as it ends their suffering in a world where they cannot invent ways to alleviate their physical burdens.

>>14105790
>that stray cat you fed once which kept rubbing on your legs in gratitude
Fucking gross. I don't want a diseased, mangy cat's hair on my pants.

>>14105732
Saturated fat
https://medlineplus.gov/ency/patientinstructions/000838.htm
Dietary cholesterol
https://www.cdc.gov/cholesterol/about.htm
Search up heme iron toxicity
Factory farming and the environment
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2367646/

Eating meat is not healthy and the process of animal agriculture is self destructive. Face it, veganism is the future (if there even is a future before you brainded meatcucks and bootlickers destroy the possibility of it.)

>>14102850
It is moral to kill them because I am so much their superior that I can pay with minutes of my time for them to be killed by someone else and delivered into my proximity.

If you don't want to be eaten stop being such a pathetic weak shit, cow.

Tiger
YE$

>>14105821
> stop being such a pathetic weak shit, cow
city dwelling faggot detected. have you ever seen a farm animal? these things can crush your skull in a single hit

>>14104987
based and wholesome

>>14105833
>these things can crush your skull in a single hit
Yes and still I am so much their superior that I can pay people with minutes of my time to kill them for me.

>>14105817
Dietary cholesterol does not affect blood cholesterol levels. All cholesterol in your blood is endogenous.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6024687/

Saturated fat is also a dietary necessity, and not at all unhealthy for you. That's a pseudoscientific misonomer left over from the "fat is BAD" craze of the 20th century.

>veganism is the future
No, lithotrophy is. There is absolutely zero reason to consume from plants rather than nutriment synthesized from inorganic components.

>>14102850
It's moral because it's our natural diet, retard.

Oh goody. The vegans are here
);

>>14105821
>The lion or the tiger, not man, should have the place he occupies in the scale of creatures. But it is never the strong, it is the weak who crave and who gain power, by the combined effect of cunning and madness. Because the beast feels no need to increase its strength, which is genuine, it does not lower itself to tools.


lmao oh no no no

>>14105850
Which coping Herbivore wrote that?

>>14105844
watch this and check the studies mentioned in it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sI5mWsSWWNU&t=565s

>>14105844
>Saturated fat is also a dietary necessity, and not at all unhealthy for you.
Said literally no major credible health organization ever.

>>14102850
Life consumes life. Even photosynthesizers rely on the slain corpses of other plants and animals for sustenance. An herbivore will swallow thousands of plants for it's one life, and a carnivore the same with other animals. To reject this consumption is to reject life. Their must be death either way.

>>14105849
Oh goody. The tranny is here
);

>>14105902
Animal agriculture is not sustainable anymore.

>>14105926
Wrong. It's the only sustainable solution.

>>14105902
Wrong, there is another way.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithotroph

>>14105902
>rejecting consumption is rejecting life

So what?

>>14105849
How can you be an anarchist and not support veganism? Also didn't you read Bookchin?

>>14105943
Uh all evidence states that it is destroying the environment. It is very clear that it isn't.

>>14105966
>reads stirner
>he is an anarchist
you at least dumb

Those who showed mercy will be shown mercy. Where will you be when the kind ones will rejoice at the springs of reason and immortality? Only the ones like you will inhabit the earth, no other animal. And plants will no longer give fruit. You will hunt yourselves, your mouth will only know the taste of human flesh besides thirst and starvation. And you will at last experience the very same wasteland and suffering you have created upon others.

>>14105982
Yes, Butterfly is an anarchist. She has said so. Don't reply to me again newfag.

>>14105984
Based.

>>14105986
If reading stirner made her an anarchist then you should go and read him aswell and figure out why women are inferior, only first grads and plebs have the ability to connect stirner and anarchism.

>>14105476
>this life solely existed in the first place to be consumed this way i am not harming the eco chain
I am amazed at how people can have this lack of emotions and empathy for another living being. I bet it's the same kind of people calling chinese people in webms bugmen and not human.

>>14106067
I mean I agree with you, but with people calling the Chinese insects for torturing living things for their meat, can you blame 'em?

>>14106067
Most of it is just a tremendous cope.

>>14106067
It is neither lack of empathy nor a cope as the other turd suggests, it is only a fuck you for trying to justify everything as wrong and right, moral and amoral, humane or inhumane.
I enjoy meat more than veggies so i will continue eating meat.

>>14106174
cope for your self destructive actions.

>>14106187
If being vegan is better, than DEMONSTRATE it.

>>14106200
>>14105817

>>14105476
Why should you be able to interfere with an animal's drive to exist? Why shouldn't you be able to cook and eat a human being?

>>14106187
Read books
>to achieve enlightment
>to evoke your fantasy
>to become opiniated and sound smart
>to be a better person
>to become wise
>to discover great truths
and so on...
No matter what's the reason behind your actions that is also a cope. Just another misconceived aspect of the urge for self destruction. You all deep down want to be free of your "former self". Refined hypocrisy, that's your smell and it stinks.

>>14106217
Because it gets me to jail, apparently we are all equals now. On the other hand if you are willing to feed me i don't see any good reason to decline your offer. What's your best part anon?

>>14105672
I imagine that before you pressed submit you thought to yourself, 'now this, this is the post to end all posts. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if some anon, impressed with my wit, cropped it for future use. 'Ask a lion', wow. Really outdid myself today, I deserve a wank'.

Do you have enough to eat every day? Are you making a living wage? Congratulations, you're already living off of the suffering of others—and suffering humans, at that. So why not live a little?

That said, if I make it to India this summer I think that will be a good opportunity to go veg

>>14102850
>billions of years of killing and consuming other life for sustenance in a universe where everything alive gets obliterated immediately if not protected by a massive ozone layer went unjudged and then suddenly some desert kike showed up and it's all immoral and bad because he said so

We aren't the ones performing gymnastics, buddy.

>>14105849
Wtf , I thought you were for a more compassionate society?

>>14106218
Not sure what this has to do with going vegan just looks like projection. Maybe ecological destruction isnt so bad when I think about it. It will stop stupidity such as yours from propagating ^_^ So yeah keep eating meat, keep destroying the environment, keep denying aesthetic modes of experience to other life forms, keep living a tasteless existence, and give yourself a heart disease.

>>14106257
It was one and the same universe that produced that moral outrage

>>14106218
Boomer cope. Everything is motivated by personal deficiencies and narcissistic self-regard, except your choices, of course.

>>14106228
The extent of your morals is 'the law says so'? My animal instincts want meat, humans have meat, what's the problem?
>best part
Ask ur mum

>>14106279
Right, but the nature of that outrage has nothing to do with what the moralist thinks. He is simply responding in his own way to the inherent violence of reality. Moral-making is just another type of violence we commit against one another.

>>14106298
No, at its heart it is a sincere desire to rise above a violent universe, every attempt (like your post) to re-circulate this desire back into the economy of violence is basically bucket crab shit

>>14106316
There isn't a damn sincere thing about it.

>>14106333
>nuh-uh

Ok, have a good day anon.

>>14102850

>>14106344
You can shove your passive aggression up your ass. You are no more innocent than the murderous universe around you, because you are one and the same with that universe, by your own admission. The whole universe is innocent, even when it murders.

>>14106296
My extent of morals says just don't end up in jail.
>>14106291
Zoomer cope, peculiarly pathetic, it is not virtuous to crawl in the dirt.
>>14106277
Yeah i am sorry i have to point out everything because people are used to read pie charts and can't connect two fucking dots with a straight line. Tell me how veganism isn't about the smuggy superiority that allows you to preach over others, curse them and wish them death. How moral, at least you are saving the planet and defenceless animal souls. But human? Nah fuck them i guess. Who cares for their "aesthetic modes of experience".
Apparently if there is one truth that makes the world spin around is the foolishness of youngsters going behind causes that sound great to feel good cause mommy can't do that anymore.

>>14106357
You're batting at a straw man.

>>14104446
>inconveniencing us do that they don’t suffer is slave morality
Their suffering is irrelevant

>>14104446
>>14104477
>art and contemplation (not war, power and conquer)
That’s clearly not how the world works. Seems like you’re fascinated with a delusion.

God is omnipotent. Everything is God’s will. Rather than what a man says are his laws, look at the laws of the universe he gave us. Look at how the world works.
God loves the strong.

>>14104758
Why can’t you read the post you’re replying to?
>more importantly, they’re our forms
The moral imperative is to do what is best for ourselves, even at the expense of the other.

>>14106369
>Zoomer cope, peculiarly pathetic, it is not virtuous to crawl in the dirt.

It is in fact virtuous to recognize your complicity in a violent universe and rise above your animal needs and impulses.

>>14106371
I don't care. Anti-violence moralizers are liars and frauds.

>>14106369
Whole lot of cope and mental gymnastics to justify your bad decisions. Keep destroying yourself and the enviroment eating meat and supporting animal agriculture to own the libs.

>>14102923
A mafia hitman or serial killer could use this same argument to you, about the slaughter of human beings.

>>14102850
Vegan solidarity brah

>>14106410
>destroying the environment because you eat steaks and burgers
Yeah okay, eat your rabbit food and shut up faggot.

Because, despite being omnivorous, we humans have a predilection towards sententious cognition. Everything must be done on a moral high ground. Not to say that animals should be treated well, but on the other hand, if that animal met a natural death, it would be torn to shreds by a relentless pack of coyotes.

>>14106445
shouldn't*** good god, I am a brainlet.

>>14106391
Good boy, no need for a prayer tonight, jesus is happy even if you are an atheist nowdays.

Such virtue is too thin for me. Dirt has no place in what is considered high and holy, right? So be it, i will gladly abstain from both. Because my actual needs - not your assumptions - and impulses have nothing to do with the dirt you so valiantly try to overcome.

>>14106437
Yes, animal agriculture is the second largest contributor to human-made greenhouse gas. But whatever. Like I said, maybe ecological destruction maybe isn't so bad. You and the mass of midwits who live a tasteless existence wont be propagating their stupidity any longer.

>>14106445
packs of coyotes don't endlessly breed animals into suffering and death you tool. over 150 billion animals are directly slaughtered by and for humans every year

>>14106410
t. just blew out 20 candles on bday cake
We don't have to completely stop eating meat, only if a few twats like you do it perfectly then it will be fine for me to continue. So go on by all means, please, eat the veggies.

>>14104374
>Veganism and 'animal rights' is idealistic bullshit with no bearing in reality and no consistent ethics.

Consumer choice is essentially the only really consistent choice we have. Veganism is a very practical worldview, easy applicable.

Veganism is also very consistent. Inconsistency lies on the carnivore-side, which holds these contradicting premises to be true: (1) It is morally neutral to kill animals, (2) Animals can suffer, (3) It is morally bad to cause needless suffering

>When a monkey invents space travel, or a cow creates a great work of art/literature, maybe you'll have a point.

Have you invented space travel? Have you created a great work of art? Can I kill you?

Even supposing you have, does that mean I can kill the vast majority who can't do these things. Or supposing you reduce the bar somewhat to some entry-level standard of intelligence; does that mean I can kill children and mentally disabled people?

Intelligence is not a good standard for whether murder is justified. The useful metric is suffering; we should ask: "does x have the capability to suffer?"

>>14106458
>all meat comes from factories and other industrialized facilities
Wrong. And you making a threat at me is laughable when you're a literal fag.

>>14106456
Work on your coherency.

>>14106474
https://www.sentienceinstitute.org/us-factory-farming-estimates
not all of it, only 99%. no biggie, right?
how far down the mud are you willing to dig your head in?

>>14106474
Yea like 99.999% do. Have fun with your heart issues as well I guess. I can ohp you for reps lardo.

>>14106474
The majority, the vast majority doe come from factory farming or other large enterprises. Its simple the nature of mass societies that, if they rely on consumption of meat, they will develop systems of mass slaughter.

Besides, I think you've entirely misunderstood how meat contributes to greenhouse emissions. All livestock is an incredibly inefficient means of using land, water and plants (i.e. 95% of onions is produced for cattle). With the effect in emissions being the effect of methane from live animals.

>>14106509
*s*o*y* not onions - thanks 4chan

>>14106468
>my arteries will harden at a faster rate than yours, faggot

Do you really think this is a gotcha, dude?

>>14106522

>>14106498
>>14106501
Why don't you attack industrialization instead of attacking eating meat? Or better, attack democracy, which is the enabler of mass industrialization?

Eating meat is not the fucking problem and that was my point. Also, heart disease from eating meat, lmao, how fucking underweight are you at this point? Vegetarians live far more at risk considering they cut out essential nutrients from their diet.

>>14104987
yuh yuh

>>14106533
Animal agriculture is what sustains meat eating in the first place. Once that is gone so is the majority of meat eating.

>>14106533
>Why don't you attack industrialization instead of attacking eating meat
if we were to live on unindustrialized meat (whatever the fuck that may be), not only would that mean the same overall suffering and harm, but you would also require about 10 planets just like this one. mind pulling those 10 Earths out of your asshole?

>>14105419
They live by their instincts anon, nothing else to be said.

>>14106369
So an untraceable murder is OK? Improsecutable evil is fine?

>>14106533
Yes. All of this has broader structural roots. All of this is exacerbated by industrialized capitalism - a worldview by which all is reduced to purely economic value.

*But eating meat is still morally indefensible* -- even according to the moral systems of the vast majority of meat eaters. You are living an unprincipled and unexamined life if you can hold these contradicting premises to be true: (1) It is morally neutral to kill animals, (2) Animals can suffer, (3) It is morally bad to cause needless suffering.

Remember: Meat eating is the height of NPC morality.

>>14106393
What do you mean, 'our'selves? You mean best for me. And I ask again, what's stopping a high IQ person (me) from dining on retard (you)?

>>14106469
To be honest you kinda have a point here, but humans have eaten only meat for most of their existence. We dont differ mouch from our ancestors 13.000 years ago. We first started eating wheat and grain with the Neolithic Revolution. So the human body is based for the things we eat today. You could say that humans can survive without meat and I would give you right in this respect, the thing is you have to consider if this is what is the easiest way to get some amino acids. I would like to go deeper into this topic, but the human body can only produce a certain amout and type of amino acids and we need to consume in our food.
The easy way is with meat.

I know there are differnt fruits and nuts that provide you with the same stuff, but they are most often or not the cheapest thing and people in thrid world countrys dont really have the money to buy them.

So in the end it boils down to availabilty and price.

Sorry for my english, not my first or second language.

>>14106581
Why can't you understand it is a problem of scale? Even if our ancestors killed to survive they wasted nothing, or at least respected the processes of life and death in which they were enmeshed. Do you think hunter-gatherers were eating meat every single day?

>>14106554
Men who aren't fags won't stop eating meat. They'll genocide half the world population if necessary in order to sustain it.

>>14106557
>unindustrialized meat (whatever the fuck that may be),
Grass fed meat from a butcher.

>not only would that mean the same overall suffering and harm
Who fucking cares? A world without meat is suffering and harm to ME. There is no outcome that doesn't lead to suffering and harm, so don't bring this up.

>you would also require about 10 planets just like this one
Or you can just kill all the useless people on the planet and enslave the rest. Easier and same results.

>>14106467
The coyotes don't, but nature does. I do think breeding animals into suffering is a tremendous ethical problem. I am glad that now the west has the luxury of contemplating what should be done about it. However, breeding animals into death after a life worth living strikes me as no different, if not a better paradigm than their living and dying elsewhere.

>>14106570
Dont mess this up, industrialized capitalism has nothing to do with this. Even before capitalism people have killed animals.

The "problem" is that nobody cares or has cared for animail rights. Even without capitalism people would eat meat, but just on a smaller sclae.

IF you are saying that Capitalism made things bigger and scaled the problem, then you might be right, because Capitalism gives the people what they want and if the people want meat then there is somebody who will provides this meat.

>>14106590
>you can just kill all the useless people on the planet and enslave the rest
care to volunteer?

>>14106588
I agree with this.

>>14104987
Murray is that you?

>>14106559
Only an idiot would throw a question so vaguely phrased and expect to be answered.

>>14106590
How is it harm and suffering to you? Is this about you being a subhuman slave to your urges?

>>14106590
>Who fucking cares? A world without meat is suffering and harm to ME.

Lol, and you have the gall to call others fags.

>>14106610
Nope, I'm Whitehead.

>>14106581
>So the human body is based for the things we eat today.
>but humans have eaten only meat for most of their existence.
if only you would research this topic by reading actual anthropology instead of retarded blogs. not only that they haven't done what you're saying, but even if they didn't it wouldn't matter for shit, since we can examine those effects now, with modern technology ( >>14105869 ). there have been no adaptations in our evolution for any of the following: regulating cholesterol levels (if any one says cholesterol doesn't raise your own cholesterol, just watch the video in the reply if mentioned above, it explains everything), synthesizing vitamin C, maintaining a gut flora that doesn't give you disease via fermentation of meat by-products (TMAO, for example), an inner structure for coping with oxidation produced by intrinsic meat factors such as hormones, heme iron, arachidonic acid and endotoxins.

>>14106617
>literally a y/n question
>vague
Gee whiz, anon

>>14106631
made a typo there
>So the human body is *not based for the things we eat today.
typing this shit pretty fast, need to do something else at the same time

>>14102850
think about this. animals killing animals is without ethics because animals cannot be kind nor cruel.

human beings view ourselves to be above animals but on a very base level we obviously are not. we do however have morality, we have the ability to be kind and cruel. we have the ability to perceive killing as cruel.

so its your decision really. are you part of the natural world or does your ability to consider morality place you above it

>>14106588
>>14106609

But what are you gonna do ?
Dont think you cant change what the people think about eating meat, becuase it is in their DNA in our culture, in their religions, it is eveywhere.

>>14106581
>>14106631
Even more, the evolutionary aspect of your argument doesn't stand logically/scientifically. Meat and animal products produce chronic disease with quite a big time offset. You generally get sick after a lot of inflammation produced by them, say 30-40-50 years old. That is well past the prime age of reproduction of pre-civilization hominids, therefore no viable mechanism for natural selection. The only case where disease and death are swift is the case of autoimmune conditions. Multiple sclerosis, for example, can be cured by completely eliminating animal products, documented fact. Research seems to point out that Type 1 diabetes is likely caused by dairy proteins.

>>14106600
There are no fucking animal rights. There are no "rights." There are privileges that are secured by strongarming others into submission. That's all. I owe nothing to cows, they are braindead beasts that exist for my pleasure, end of fucking story.

>>14106618
A quality steak or burger is delicious and I also feel incredible the next day from it. Why the fuck would I be happy to remove these permanently from my life? And how could people endure doing physical activities or anything requiring consistent high amounts of energy without them? This is where Socrates was dead wrong and where Glaucon was right. A civilization that is functional without luxuries is pure ideology.

>>14106645
I realized your typo and replied accordingly, there's no mistake I made.

>>14106581

To address some of your points:

1. Health and necessity: Human beings eat meat more than they ever did before. With the result being that its killing us slowly. In contrast, provided you do some preliminary research, a vegan diet *is* more healthy. This is because human beings are omnivores, they do not have to have meat, and in fact, they can make do without it just fine.

2. Tradition: Nothing about the modern system of industrialized mass slaughter bares likeness to how hunter-gatherers killed and ate animals 13,000 years ago. I really don't think you can understand the extent of the mechanised perversity of the slaughterhouse, of the breeding process until you have seen documentaries on veganism (If you are interested, google "Dominion" which is, I think, a particularly brutal and revealing, systematic study of the meat industry in Australia - though you may want to find one specific to your country). Besides this fact about the profound disjunction between how people did kill and consume animals and how they kill and consume animals now, I question the very idea that our morality should align with tradition. Really, that anything should align with tradition merely on the basis of its being tradition. Just because we have been doing things doesn't mean we should keep doing things - and in the case of meat eating there are very compelling reasons not to continue.

3. Cost: Veganism is often misunderstood as an overly expensive lifestyle choice affordable only to bourgeoisie hipsters; actually I have found a vegan diet to be much cheaper. I eat curries, bean dishes, stir fries etc. all very cheap and all very healthy. It is worth doing a bit of research, but all you are lacking in some vague knowledge, the kind of knowledge we have picked up around how to balance meat and fish in our diet, but which, because our society is not geared around plant-based eating, we don't have for veganism. This kind of intuition, then, is really all you need.

As for cost in the Third World, I don't think that veganism should be thrust on people who can't afford it, or for whom eating meat is necessary for survival. But for consumers in Westernised societies, or for wealthy citizens of developing countries, the choice is trivially easy, and the comparison is without use.

>>14102850
The reason to live is to serve God. Animals serve God by living and dying at the hands of their superiors. The only duty we have for them is to make their existence as painless as possible.

>>14103061
Free will. Animals don't have it. Humans do.

>>14106669
So, what are you doing with all this energy the cows give you?

>>14106669
>And how could people endure doing physical activities or anything requiring consistent high amounts of energy without them?
your brain gets so much energy and yet can't fathom typing 'vegan marathon runners' in google. there's even a movie trending right now called 'the game changers' made specifically for knuckleheads like you, to understand that plant-based diet is THE way to go for athletes.

>>14106676
Get this archontic drivel out of here.

>>14106680
Okay, so why exercise your free will to give into your biological urges?

>>14102875
yikes dude

>>14105419
Can you present a moral thesis for why both are bad?

>>14106680
Free will. Neither humans nor animals have it.

Either way, its a strange, hardly defensible metric for deciding whether to kill something or not.

>>14106683
Working towards the creation of a society not filled with lazy delusional faggots like yourself.

>>14106688
Who the fuck ever said that all people are equal and only one diet should exist?

>>14102894
ha hahaha ha ha ha

>>14105894
Ask any nutritionist, the only fat you always want to avoid are trans fats.

>>14106680
What makes you say animals don't have free will? Don't they seem to have desires, habits and autonomy. Birds go about their life fine, don't they?

And what of human free will? What makes you say we have free will? We are as trapped in a system of hardly justifiable subroutines, unconscious or otherwise, in much the same way animals are. Are most people even full conscious in the sense that most people seem hardly self-reflective?

And besides, what has this got to do with KILLING?

>>14102855
no, its moral, because its legally allowed by a well defined constitution & law

>>14106689
t. Can't respond to my argument
>why give into to your biological urges
Because there is nothing wrong with this particular biological urge. Also I have a question for you. Is existence good?

>>14106710
By arguing with vegans on an online anime board.

The products of needless slaughter... well spent!

>>14106724
Free will is the axiom by which something is deemed valuable so it has everything to do with killing. I am conscious and I am human so it seems reasonable to assume other humans are conscious.
>dude were just animals
Cool. Then let me kill them like they kill each other

>>14106689
My biological urges are me. Why give into myself? Because I have no choice. I am that I am. Why do you instead "give in" to your urge to be a raging homo? Because that's what you are.

>>14106731
Don't cite free will as justification to slavishly submit to your desire for a certain taste. Rise above.

>>14106717
by definition. members of the same species are adapted to the same type of diet. the best bet for humans seems to be something along the lines of 70% carbs 15% fat and 15% protein.
15% protein is on the higher side, it will do even for the highest tier of natural athletes.

>>14106750
>my biological urges are me. I have no choice. I am that I am.

Just sad.

>>14106723
Literally NO health organization or nutritionist recommends raising your saturated fat intake it raises your risk of heart disease
https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/interactivenutritionfactslabel/saturated-fat.html
And I've taken nutrition classes at my school before.

>>14106570
>needless
You fail to define what makes something needless. I like how animals taste. And they were born to feed me. So my want is satisfied by their slaughter. And their existence is brought about by my want

>>14106759
>implying you are separate from my body
You are a delusional twat.

>>14106751
Why is wanting this taste bad?

>>14106731
Eating meat isn't a biological urge. Eating maybe, but the desire for meat isn't hardcoded into you.

The point is that you can't control your urges, that you are, in short, a moral dwarf, tossed hither and thither by the winds of your own voluptuary-consumerist habits and impulses.

I am not suggesting that you should live a life on constant psychological revolution (though perhaps you should) BUT when a particular impulse of yours is morally unjustifiable, is morally wrong, to not be able to stop yourself for the only reason of gustatory pleasure... well... I don't want to have to say it anon....

>>14106752
But there's exceptions and extremes which require different approaches, marathon runners being one type of extreme

>>14106752
>70% carbs 15% fat 15% protein
Okay fat fuck, you just proved you have no knowledge on the subject.

>>14106774
from your body*
If that typo wasn't obvious

>>14106745
If we aren't just animals, if we are driven by higher principles, then surely the best way of demonstrating that is by not collapsing into the moral system of other animals, whether humans or other animals, or at least this is true when the act amounts to suffering, to a moral negative.

But no, I'm sure you'll demonstrate you're superiority over nature by mimicking it unthinkingly.

>>14106780
>I am a free being and that's why animals exist for my pleasure, but I can't control my desire for the taste of their bodies

One or the other, you can't have both.

>>14106774
So do you rape every girl you see on the street?

>>14106786
Where do you draw morality from? And once again I don't consider killing animals immoral so I don't violate my principles. My demands are the reason for the vast majority of their existence.

>>14106780
da poor animols :(((
da poor planet :(((

People think we will fuck up the earth and make it uninhabitable but the earth will wipe us the fuck out with storms and volcanic eruptions first and then will continue to exist if need be.

>>14106799
Throw morality in the garbage because it is a spook and turn to ecology.

>>14106789
From what I've read, a lot of professional marathon runners are at 10% protein. More protein than 15% is needed for steroid users, because they would need to eat too much calories overall if they were to get the same amount of protein from 15% of calories, rather than 25 or 30%.

>>14106780
Because it amounts to suffering. Needlessly.

>>14106804
>just do whatever man mommy earth will clean up our mess

>>14106791
>fat fuck
I can hold a full planche for 15 seconds you silly little boy

>>14106807
Yeah but so what? Most people aren't marathon runners. A certain diet appears ideal for that profession, but that's not the only profession.

>>14106817
What do you eat? I want to work out but it's tough transitioning from a meat diet

>>14106795
I was arguing as a devils advocate since you imply we are no different than animals. So if I accept this premise than I shouldn't be criticizes for killing them. There are two possible options.
A) I have superior moral and mental faculties to animals making them inferior to me and making their killing justified.
B) I don't and I can't be held to higher standards than them.
And once again you use the harm principle. What if I kill the animal instantaneously? I'd you argue discomfort during life than this is the result of industrial farming and discomfort would exist in the wild as well.

>>14106813
>Needlessly
Fuck you dude, my needs aren't needless.

>>14106674
Threads like this are the reason I come to lit, I fuckng love it when people discuss stuff this kinda way.

The points you made a pretty solid to say the least, but I think you missing my core point.

What are you going to do to change the commen conception of diet. I personally dont need meat, but I dont dislike it either. I know that it is produced under brutal conditions.

STILL I dont think you can change the society we live in today, where the people consum meat in masses and the meat industry being so big that it can infulence goverment in easy ways. For examples for this we need just to look at the FDA and how they say a Salami Pizza from Dominos is healthy and students should have them for lunch.

One Point you also didnt address is the whole Religion thing.

Keep the replies comming really enjoying this.

>>14106669
>it feels good on my tum-tum so I WANT IT I WANT IT I WANT IT GIBMEEEEE
This is how children behave, anon.

>>14106796
>haha he has no morals, he must rape and murder whenever he wants!
Pathetic.

>>14106765
I never stated that you should raise you saturated fat levels, but they shouldnt necessarily be avoided. I took nutrition too bud.

>>14106813
How? Is their very existence suffering? If so then you should be glad I killed them. If not then perhaps you mean the suffering in the few moments prior to their death. This is a infinitesimal amount of suffering or no suffering at all that their long existence should more than compensate for.

>>14106838
is right about this

>>14106669
I wouldnt call a McDonalds Hamburger luxurie

>>14106838
And the children are right. Adults are not right just because they have sticks lodged in their colons.

>>14106674
I haven't really contributed to this thread, just traded shiposts with the more baitable meat-eaters, but it's good to see posts like this one. Very based and extremely empathypilled.

>>14106799
Well, to borrow your terms, my moral 'axiom' is suffering.

I also value non-domination as a guiding life principle, one that begins with a recognition that consciousness has unique value, as distinct from ego which is an obscured truth, and that any 'will to power' or act of domination is one which fails to demonstrate a consciousness or awareness of the world (from which consciousness, awareness of one's place in the world, begins).

That your demand leads to existences of suffering is little to be proud of. We don't have a moral duty to bring good lives into the world, though we do have a moral duty not to bring lives of suffering into the world.

>>14106796
I can control it but I see no reason to since I don't consider the methods for obtaining it as bad.

This thread points out well how morality is garbage and not helpful whatsoever. Get redpilled on ecology.

>>14106830
By the sounds of it, you sound pretty needless to me.

>>14106838
This is unjustifiable for children because their demands are unreasonable. My demands are perfectly reasonable and I have the means to fulfil them

>>14106850
>McDonalds Hamburger
Where the fuck does this come from? Have you never made your own hamburger using meat from a butcher before?

>>14106831
I really like this Documentary
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_VBdCmabVs

>>14106680
In addition to what everyone else said, between the nearly brain dead should-have-been abortion and the orangutan, you think it's the former who has free will?

>>14106864
That's because you're retarded from eating nothing but cabbage all day.

>>14106868
Yes I have, still just, because something feels good doenst make it right.
You could rape someone and it would feel so great, but this wouldnt make it good.

>>14106820
My only point is that natural athletes require 15%, hell, 20% percent protein AT MOST, which is a breeze to attain on a vegan diet
>>14106821
i start my day with about 150g raw rolled oats, 40g raisins and 30-60 flax/walnuts/sunflower seeds etc, for lunch i have 100g beans/lentils and 150g brown rice. dinner usually about 200g of whole wheat flour in the form of bread (which I make at home). complement with a few berries and carrots/sweet potatoes/ spinach for vitamin C/A/K accordingly. eat whatever of the above to reach caloric adequacy.
all the measurements I've given are for the raw/dry product. i obviously cook the beans, rice and wheat, but rolled oats (oat flakes) I like them most raw. at most with a bit of oat milk/onions milk.

>>14106858
>existences of suffering
How? Industrial farming? It is not my duty to regulate industrial farms. That's the job of those in authority. I'll vote for them and fulfil my duty. Also can you prove that these existences are any worse than those in the wild where they live in fear of predators diseases and what not. Also once again industrial farming is seperate from the act of killing an animal.

>>14106730
So is stoning rape victims and honor killing

>>14106887
It wouldn't make it bad just because the girl suffered from it either.

>>14102850
because we are omnivorse.
yes the meat industrie produces to much and has a big effect on the planet, we just need to eat less not quit.
Can a vegan live of permaculture? no because you need to import veggies from al over the planet. otherwise you wont live healthy. an omnivore that lives of permaculture is better for the planet then any vegan.
and for the "poor animals get aw aws when we kill them"
every living being is an ashole to other animals, bears kill for fun without eating the corpses they leave behind. cats murder everything that moves, dolphines rape and kill smaller dolphines. animals do not need our sympathy for they have non aswel.

>>14106896
There is unironically nothing wrong with honour killing. And I dont think any country stones rape victims. Only people who they misidentify as non rape victims.

>>14106846
You can't even follow the train of your own logic. You're nothing but your body when you want to meat, but when it comes to sexual gratification you're suddenly this dignified autonomous being who won't stoop so low as to indiscriminately give into his biological urges, which he is now conveniently distinguished from. Totally incoherent.

>>14106892
You seeing gains at the gym, or at least staying strong? Thank you based anon.

>>14106827
Let me articulate my point:

>A) I have superior moral and mental faculties to animals making them inferior to me and making their killing justified.
... but in killing them, I show that I am morally their equal and fail the very test of moral 'superiority' necessary to kill them in the first place.

Though of course I challenge the very idea that moral and mental 'superiority' translates into the right to kill something. As a moral axiom, however, this is admittedly arbitrary and so I can't challenge that without defense, though I can point out that it is a profoundly aesthetically perverse way of living in the world, as well as seeming to misunderstand a broader extra-subjective (call it objective, if you'd like) understanding.

As for killing animals instantaneously: its essentially impossible, or impossible enough to be wholly distinct from any of the real scenarios in which animals are killed in our world, whether by: hunting, more human lower-scale farming, or factory farming. The question of harm-free killing is still met with the response: why? of what point is this? and if it seems repulsive (assuming you find it repulsive) to do to a human, why not for an animal?

>>14106866
>I wanna kill for my tummy! GIB THE COW GIB COW GIB COW I WANNAWANNAWANNAWANNA
Hmm

>>14106707
>Free will. Neither humans nor animals have it.
WRONG.
http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/free_will.html
>>14106724
See above link.
>>14106878
Yes.

>>14106907
Not him but he never stated that his difference was because of sexual gratification. Perhaps he conceives human life as valuable but not animal life. For example if I ate a tasty snack and then you said I was being a slave to my desires. I see the snack as not violating my moral axioms so why should I stop?

>>14106852
Stop advocating for rape, incel

>>14106881
Do you find the source of your intelligence in your food? Is that why you sound so bovine?

>>14106926
Biology doesn't distinguish between moral axioms. If he has no choice but to give into his biological programming when he wants to eat meat, he can't appeal to morality when its his dick that wants something.

The problem is most poor people are selfish and lack the genetic potential for the intelligence to understand that if they cannot afford non industrial meat they shouldn't eat it. If only people with the wealth to afford free range locally produced meat ate meat most of the environmental problem would be gone. Even reviving the old christian tradition of meat free Friday would help.

>>14106897
Then explain to me, what makes something good and what makes something bad.

Because you cant create a moral system in which based on the fact that something feels good, it is good, without creating 100 erros in your own execution of your moral system.

>>14106848
>raise animals in conditions comparable to a concentration camp
>artifically fatten them up
>rape them
>take their offspring away as soon as they can survive away from mom (half will be killed immediately, half will have as brutal a life as their mom)
>my business is known to only hire psycopaths, or, alternatively, to rob normal people of their empathy
>I kill the animals after a while, so it's ok

>>14106945
Eat fish on Friday !

>>14106912
like I said, my biggest achievement is full planche for 15 seconds, quite recently, which is quite a bit over a one arm chin-up strength wise if you're not familiar with bodyweight exercises.
I had in mind a more serious iron cross routine but I'm getting towards the end of my master's degree so I'll have less time for that.
also, don't forget to track your nutrients on cronometer. set the calcium intake to 300-500mg since it's upped by the slimy USDA fucks. if you don't make it with your usual food, add some unhulled sesame seeds in your diet or carob powder, that will do the trick with very little effort.
i've been on this type of diet for 5 years

>>14106921
Yes I get the cow with my money and no one finds my demands unreasonable except some vegans.
>>14106918
>as an axiom this is inherently abitrary
All axioms are arbitrary since they are unfalsifiable and essentially just feelings we hope others can agree on.
>you fail the moral test
I dont because I don't consider it immoral since their lives have less value than mine. The only obligation I feel to them is not torturing them while they are alive and making their life uncomfortable. If I failed with my conduct amongst my equals (humans) then perhaps your argument would hold ground for me. Anyways this was a good discussion but I must sleep so I won't answer anymore perhaps past one post.

>>14106933
Nutrition doesn't play a role in brain functionality in your world because your brain isn't functional.

>>14106935
He never spoke of biology. You're presenting a materialistic interpretation to his arguments.

>>14106955
Thank you.

>>14106964
Read: >>14106750
>>14106774

>>14106950
>Then explain to me, what makes something good and what makes something bad.
I don't know, you tell me. By your logic, something can't be good just because it is pleasurable, so something also can't be bad just because it is painful. You're the one who needs to provide the new moral system.

>>14106924
>libertarian
oh no no no

>>14106831
Gee, props for the comradery anon.

To the points:

Societal perception: What onus rests on the individual to change societal perceptions on their own? Besides, surely morality as conceived by society can (and should) be at odds with the individuals morality. An introspective individual leading an examined life will likely come to subtler moral conclusions than most, and history provides us with plenty of examples were what was taken to be moral by the group was exactly the opposite. Here is something you can do as an individual to directly reduce your moral complicity: eat vegan.

BUT I do think that individuals can impact social perceptions, and they can do so by making a change to a vegan diet. Presumably you will interact people, be forced into explaining some of the reasons why you don't eat meat or dairy, and in doing so you build public consciousness. Actually, I think many more people are capable of the empathic leap to understanding the brutality of animal slaughter, and the rest, that is the uncaring or unreflective majority whose morality tracks social perception, will lumber after. If you really are committed you can actively protest for animal rights (though I think this tactic often has pretty bad optics, at least in the way its practiced, though I think protest is a strong tool in general).

As for the religion argument, I can't find it in your previous post, could you point me to it?

>>14106953
>raise animals in conditions comparable to concentration camps
Animals don't care about freedom. As long as it isn't painful it's nowhere near as bad as the averga life they would live.
>artificially fattem them up
So give them food? I'm sure they hate that.
>rape them
Animals are already raped in most sexual encounters by the stronger sex.
>take their children away from them
I don't eat veal.
Once again this is assuming the conditions of industrial farming. Conditions that while bad could be much much worse in the wild with its germs and predators. Are you okay with non industrial slaughter?

>>14106924
>v o l i t i o n a l counsciousness
>ur mind isn't automatic
>proof? Just trust me bro lmao

>>14106991
>Animals don't care about freedom. As long as it isn't painful it's nowhere near as bad as the averga life they would live.

God almighty you can't actually believe this.

>>14106991
how many times does this need to be said?
99% of animal products come from intensive farming.
over 150 BILLION animals per YEAR are slaughtered for FOOD. that's without the collateral and environmental damage.

>>14106999
I mean inthr same way humans do to the point its a metaphysical ideal for us. Of course it's better to raise an animal in the open but a concentration camp have very different implications for an animal and human. And you dismiss the main question of my argument.

>>14106977
To write out my entire moral system it would take way to long.

Yes I am saying something cant be good just because it feels good and yes I am also saying that something cant be bad just because it is painful.

On the most basic thing, I would say if there is a situation and you would be in the position of the other person would it be okay for you to allow what you are doing to the other person.

For example if you rape somebody without any reason, just a pick a girl from the street and rape her. IF you were that girl would you wont to be raped by a random stranger who you did no evil in your life ?

Take that as an absolut basic of basics of moral 101.

>>14102850
Carnivores don't say shit like that. We just don't care. Not even a tiny bit: chickens, pigs, cows, sheep, etc. can be tortured in any way for any length of time and killed by any fashion and we will still eat their flesh with pleasure. Fuck your morals and ethics.

>>14106959
Yeah, I wasn't criticizing your axiom on the basis of its arbitrariness, but merely articulating what you just wrote about the fruitlessness of contesting axioms.

I tend to think morality has a strong aesthetic component, and its the aesthetic quality of animal slaughter, of needless suffering and subjugation which is my strongest driving force. I don't think can be levied as a compelling argument in words though, it really has to be seen. And seen it should be, at least if you hold your particular axiom with conviction. I challenge you to reserve some time to watch a documentary called 'Dominion' through to the end. Emerge from it supercilious if you do, but at least see what your axiom as a bland sentence translates to in reality.

>>14107011
Once again this is seperate from the act of killing an animal. I get my meat from local open range chicken farms. Are you okay with non industrial slaughter?

>>14107016
>pigs don't have a metaphysical concept of freedom so their clear and obvious distress locked in a cage until death is immaterial

>>14107030
>Are you okay with non industrial slaughter?
no because im not a subhuman immoral degenerate

>>14106959
>money = morals, having the power means having the justification
Ethics for NPCs. An anarchist, and not in the enlightened sense.

>>14106990
Muslims for example need to a lamb if it is possible on one of their speical days, how would you want to explain to them that they shouldnt do this. Overall their diet is pretty meat heavy and there a lot of other Religions that take eating meat as a basic of their Religion.

What should does people do ?

The only thing that comes to mind is either to ignore the Vegan perspectiv or deny their Religion. They could just stop killing animals, but Allah told them to do in the Quran and it is the word of God and who are they to deny God himself ?

I hope the thread is still there when I wake up, need to go to sleep. Maybe we will see us again Anon. Until then have a great time and keep up that good work of your !

>>14107025
I looked it up and this seems to be an industrial farming documentary. Perhaps I didn't clear this up. I don't support industrial farming. Most of the meat I get is fish and from open range chicken farms. I have at most two patties worth of beef a week. As for the act of killing an animal. I've seen it since I was a child. It's a tradition here to show a child animal slaughter so they know exactly what they eat. We even slaughter animals ourselves.

>>14106848
>Is their very existence suffering?
Yes, it most certainly is. Watch a documentary, educate yourself (I suggest googling "Dominion"). This is the point, even before the process of slaughter, which is profoundly brutish and horrible for the animal, these animals live a life of extreme suffering.

>If so then you should be glad I killed them.
Don't be so inane. We shouldn't be bringing animals into the world to torture and kill them.

>This is a infinitesimal amount of suffering
Watch footage of animals being driven through a slaughter house. The process is grueling, very grueling. I'd launch into poetics but its really no use, words are too much our own for them to convey the meaning someone else intends. If I say cows are 'raped' the idea is hilarious, not out of carnivorean sadism, but because it seems a misuse of the word. But, again, watch a documentary. See footage. This stuff speaks for itself man.

>>14107030
No. I am more OK with jt than with industrial farming, but it's still the creation of unnecessary suffering, and only made possible because of your privileged environment.

>>14107045
Ethics for NPCs are slave morality which might is right is intrinsically against.

>>14107062
Their existence dwarves their momentary suffering at death. Unless existing in itself is bad somehow.

>>14107057
>two patties
So you participate in the meat industry. Are the patties factory farmed, or do you buy your patties from a wholesome farm where the coe is treated as a beloved pet before being sent to the grinder?
Why the reluctance to watch the documentary? It's how your patties get to your table, after all.

>>14107052
Are you Muslim? If not, this is no moral defense against being vegan yourself.

Are you concerned about change? Because, religions are (despite their PR) very adaptive to the changing mores and laws of society. Religions have openly sanctioned slavery in the past, for instance.

>>14107070
boy you're in for a treat once your miserable life here on earth ends

>>14102850
That idea doesn't express that it's moral to kill animals, it just expressed the reality of what will happen if vegan faggots had their way. Animal experimentation, animal farming and the meat industry are banned tomorrow. With no Market for these animals they'll be killed off or left to die in the USA. If you think animals are conscious beings then killing them is immoral even if they led "happy" lives.

>>14107058
>slaughter which is profoundly brutish and horrible
I don't think so. Ive seen slaughter in person. I'd question the authenticity of the documentaries you put forth.

>>14107019
What if you're so ugly you can't find a girl to have a child with? Is rape for the sake of procreation justified under your moral system then?

>>14107083
Do you believ in supernatural ethics? Which ones? The Abrahamic ones all permit animal slaughter. According to Buddhism and Hinduism I'll just have a bad life before starting over.

>>14107084
Absolutely braindead argument.
You'd be ok if all animals alive right now were slaughtered and at the same time no more breeding and insemination was done? So starting from tomorrow, no more livestock alive on earth. Consume the meat for some time until it ends, then you have no meat. We solved it.
Also just curious, how does the average thread you reply to look. Do you even ready any books?

>>14107057
The documentary covers the meaning of "open range". Its basically a joke. Furthermore, industrial farming applies to fish as well. How sure are you that your fish aren't farmed?

But no, you're right, this cuts deeper. Its about whether it is moral to kill an animal for fun and profit. The utility of the documentary is that in showing the extremes of brutality, it introduces you to the idea that even the most minimised brutality remains a brutality nonetheless.

The ritualised method killing of animals, needless to say, doesn't compare to the industrialised method of killing animals. But the former causes one to reassess the latter. Veganism is a huge readjustment of one's moral lenses, and it requires a sharp slap, a carpet being pulled out from under you, a kind of mini crisis, to be understood. Seeing the extreme, though I can find no logical reason for why, seems to be way in which we can understand this lower level barbarity for what it is. At least it was for me.

>>14107081
Once again I question the authenticity of your documentary since I'd like to know if this is a universal practice. Apparently this is done with hidden cameras in Australia. And I don't consider it my duty to stop poor conditions there. That's the job of the politicians. I'll vote for them.

>>14107070
Please don't elevate the amount of might you yield. It's a couple of bills, which you use to justify the abuse of animals, people, and the environment.
Furthermore, might is right is not a defined system of ethics. If you were overpowered by a group of fifteen thugs who them ran a train on you, you wouldn't pontificate on how your ass by right belongs to your assailants on account of their superior strength. It's a tired truism you fling from the comfort of your middlebrow life that has no application on how you interact with the world.
>>14107078
You are the guy that's arguing for the 1% of meat that's "ethically" farmed, right?
It'a like saying that 1% of rapes are "sort of OK", but I think it would be out of place in a discussion about rape.

>>14107088
Only one way to question the authenticity mon ami. Watch 'em.

But here's a simple breakdown of *why*:

1. Our secularised society values everything in terms of economic value
2. Our industrialised society mechanises and anonymises all production
3. Our mass society demands everything en masse

Do you think, even if it was possible to begin with, that these three realities tend towards a holistic and respectful treatment of animals in the process of slaughter?

>>14106570
The height of NPC morality is morality based on pity for the suffering and fear of anything that reminds us of our own exploitableness. That is the morality you employ when you look at webms of animals being pushed along assembly lines and grinded up and react by calling for a total end of meat consumption.

>>14107101
93 million cows in the USA. If it's illegal to harvest them and if it's illegal to use their milk they'll have no utility and no farmer will keep paying to feed them out of good will. They will die off. I support meat eating, but we should just acknowledged they're machines and not living creatures to us.

>>14107108
Once again I question how the isolated documentary represents the whole industry as a whole. My country literally has no fish farms. And Ive visited the farms I go to for chicken myself. The extremes of brutality have never desensitized me to lesser forms of violence personally. I've seen violent executions yet I still support capital punsihment

>>14107112
These practices are essentially necessary for any industry of mass slaughter at scale. Animals are fed, kept, and killed with the bare minimum of associated cost. In other words, these industries cannot be reformed because of the terrific demand. You as a consumer can reduce that demand.

Besides, are the only moral agents in a society... politicians? This is a bizarre moral stance, particularly on an issue that you can so easily do something about, and with a trivial burden on yourself. Or perhaps you want to wait until you're chastised by politicians.

>>14107097
I believe in a type of transcendental ethics that keeps the scum that lives on earth without trying to do as little harm as possible, away from ever knowing peace, silence, transcendental beauty, unmoved reason and beauty.
If you'd to be steeped in at least a quarter of my experience and painful love and contempt towards all that is graceful, you'd cut your throat by yourself and jump head first into the nearest latrine. however, no matter how many animal products one has consumed, as soon as he renounces and washes his hands of all of them, i will consider him my brother, if he himself deems me worthy of that
https://youtu.be/q-gMThM753I

>>14107132
Why not acknowledge that they are alive? What's so bad about that?

>>14107143
>If you'd to be steeped in at least a quarter of my experience and painful love and contempt towards all that is graceful, you'd cut your throat by yourself and jump head first into the nearest latrine. however, no matter how many animal products one has consumed, as soon as he renounces and washes his hands of all of them, i will consider him my brother, if he himself deems me worthy of that

Goddamn based.

>>14107143
i said beauty two times, but you probably get the idea

>>14107129
The height of NPC morality is: crowd think, a lack of self-reflection and a disinterest in, or inability to formulate, moral principles.

The warped way in which human empathy extends beyond its evolutionary function to allow us to understand the equal existential precariousness of animals allows us a greater knowledge of the world, beyond the blinkers of our own perception. On these grounds it ought to be championed.

>>14107143
>>14107097
also meant to say something along the lines of serene sorrow towards*, not contempt; english is not my first language

>>14107174
Don't worry bro, it came through. You're a man after my own heart.

>>14107143
You sound like an edgy fag who's who highest moral standard is the harm principle.
>If you'd to be steeped in at least a quarter of my experience and painful love and contempt towards all that is graceful, you'd cut your throat by yourself and jump head first into the nearest latrine.
Get over yourself cringelord

>>14107136
Well, by nature any individual thing is 'isolated', though there are, believe you me, no shortage of vegan documentaries. This documentary breaks down the meat industry in Australia, which would be admittedly less compelling for someone elsewhere in the world - with this in mind, I encourage you to search out a documentary specific to your own country. As for your other responses, perhaps you simply are unreachable, I can't think there's much to be happy about in that. It merely means there's a certain impassable barrier between your perception of the world and the perception of other living things in the world. I can only think this means you understand less of the world for it, and probably it doesn't aid your own processes of self-reflection (for there is a certain limit to your ability to compare it to, or simply understand, 'alien' mental states).

Pobrecito

>>14107120
Are you arguing 1% of rapes are justifiable?

>>14107226
I watched part of Earthlings and I'm a little anxious about starting Dominion, makes me feel so shitty and powerless. Keep fighting the good fight

>>14107219
you've been confronted with virtually all arguments for veganism in this thread, and you haven't even considered that you maybe were wrong. you are probably in your mid 20. assuming a big 'environmental retribution' won't come soon, you will live your life just like another mindless human does. you will probably have a wife, children, a family with which you will share the same destructive principles (if you could even call them that). you will reach older age and you will start feeling the first signs of weakness and powerlessness. in the end, you will have lived and died ignoring all moral principles except 'might is right', said casually from your sheltered home. you will most likely have no original thought or feeling whatsoever during your whole life. by your posts i can tell you also follow some mindless identity movement. as you wither away, try to remember the type of smugness, idiotic ignorance and disgusting malice you had while making those posts in this thread, they are the things that truly define you

>>14107235
Its bleak eh. Same to you comrade

>>14107146
I mean functionally and legally they're machines. You're right though acknowledging they're alive helps us better confront what we're really doing My only point was the observation the OP mocked was an economic observation if you take away its conclusion and I think its a valid observation. Besides a few pet cows in a purely .vegan world these animals have no purpose.

>>14102850
I am not a chicken, a cow or a fish, so I can eat chicken cow and fish.
The end

>>14107165
>extends beyond
You mean naively corrupts

Rest is bullshit. We can't understand reality outside our perception no matter what language you employ to try and mask that hard fact, and empathy does not mean having to stoop as low as letting our pity dictate our actions.

>>14107276
>seething this hard over a 4chan thread

>>14107276
Are you a homosexual? Your cadence is very vaginal

>>14107943
Vegan is just a couple letters away from vagina after all.

>>14106235
Tell me what it's like to feel this way about a 4chan post.