/lit/ - Literature

It's a good refutation of individualism and multiculturalism, though

>>14061965
>multiculturalism
How does it refute this?

>>14062681
tongue my anus mothnigger

>>14062681
There's no defense for it in the first place.

>>14062681
he found that even when controlling for socioeconomic factors ethnic diversity lowers social trust as well as a host of other "quality of life" metrics a a few years later in his E Pluribus Unum essay. This isn't explicitly a part of Bowling Alone, but one could reasonably extrapolate from this that ethnic diversity decreases communal feeling which concomitantly decreases membership in voluntary organizations. This is the radical right's interpretation of Putnam's works and I think it tells part of but not the whole story of decline in communal organizations. As the net of community is cast ever wider it becomes thinner and thinner if you will, all very Tocquevillian

>>14061965
It's become a classic in sociology. A professor of mine who disagreed with Putnam's politics still acknowledged that many of his points are absolutely valid.

>>14062737
>the radical right
Really, guy? Wanting to live around your own kind like your ancestors did instead of a bunch of shitskins is "radical"?

>>14062793
Well on account of the Overton window what you are saying is considered the province of the radical right. Don't get too worked up though, the fact that I said ethnic diversity is "part of" the explanation for a negative phenomenon already declares me as The Enemy either way, so you can know that my disagreement with the radical right is not a cuck for the cathedral but rather intellectual disagreement. Cultural fragmentation and individualism are problems that predated the Hart-Celler act, that's all I'm saying.

Good analysis, Putnam's solution is "do what's causing it but ramp it up by eleven".

>>14062793
yeah fuck you too buddy. some waspy piece of shit flipped me off while riding my bike the other day and i found some time to smash his driver side mirror. we're going to coom all over "your" country my goy

>>14062963
You mean get expelled as you always do, jew?

It's a massive block of statistics and there really isn't much about race at all, in fact i don't remember anything about race in the book.

>>14062970

>>14062712
based

>>14062768
ah yes, have to respect (((controlled opposition)))

>>14062712
based af

>>14062712
too based

>>14063065
Are there any valid reasons for some of these?

>>14062712
buttercunt gets destroyed in every thread

>>14063446
Ya antisemitism duh. What do you think it could possibly have anything to do with jewish actions or behavior?

>>14063457
Any specific examples?

>>14062712
Based

>>14063355
>>14063431
>>14063437
>>14063825
samefag

>>14062737
Thank you very much.
Seems a far cry better than the stinking Bell Curve

>>14062938
Is it now?

>>14064136
what did you find objectionable about the bell curve? I found the notion of increasing population stratification due to assortative mating between individuals of similar intelligence a noteworthy proposition. Especially in light of the consequences that the formation of these castes would have upon the cohesiveness of the nation.

>>14062712
The only legitimate one I've ever been given is "economic benefits" which is debatable especially for populations that contribute more unskilled labor rather than skilled labor. You'll also usually be given some trite reason like art or food or something.

>>14064136
I'd eat my hat if you've read The Bell Curve.

>>14063457
Because something happens to you a lot that means it's because you're evil?

>>14064239
>what did you find objectionable about the bell curve?
Jiggered statistic
> I found the notion of increasing population stratification due to assortative mating between individuals of similar intelligence a noteworthy proposition
You support eugenics. Are you also a Chesterton fan, by any chance?
> these castes would have upon the cohesiveness of the nation.
Statist and classist. I hate liberals.

>>14064242
I’ve read about its controversy. It’s discredited junk “science” for scared white Americans bookshelves to make them feel smart and edgy

>>14064340
>Jiggered statistic
weird adjective to use (also why not "jiggered statistics", there are more than one in the book?) and I won't ask for specifics since it'd create a long boring discussion of statistics that no one wants to go through.
>>14064340
>You support eugenics. Are you also a Chesterton fan, by any chance?
Assortative mating =/= eugenics. It can and does occur without conscious effort. Also never read Chesterton, but I've heard about the guy on here before.
>>14064340
>Statist and classist. I hate liberals.
A description of a phenomenon does not mean I support it per se.
>>14064340
> It’s discredited junk “science”
you hear that about intelligence research in general and yet it stands as one of the best subfields psychology has to offer. I hope you are at least like Taleb who has the methodological consistency to discredit psychology and the softer sciences in general for failing to meet his standards of rigor. Don't feel like going through the rigamarole of a debate on this subject. That's all I wanted to say on the matter.

>>14062793
>your ancestors
Your ancestors probably spent their time moaning about the Jews, Catholics Italians, polacks, and Irish and wishing they could live among their own people.

>>14064340
Almost all the controversy surrounding The Bell Curve concerns the single chapter on Race and IQ, which is not a subject on which you can derive your opinion from how "controversial" it is to the plebs.

>>14064726
Sounds good to me. What's the catch?

>>14064340
Do you really have to go so far out of your way to be so unlikeable? Why can you not accept that there are limitations to what is possible for humans, and that your fantasy land with non-accumulative currency where everyone always gets along forever can never happen?

>>14062737
Wanting to live in a coherent community with shared cultural practices and a common history is "radical"? Yeah okay there bud. You're fighting an upward battle against human nature.

>>14065172
There is no catch, nor was there a golden age where people got along because they felt they were living among their own people. If an out group isn't immediately obvious, one will be created.
It's not really apparent that America ever had the communality posited by OP. The lack of a welfare state would suggest otherwise.

>>14065739
Yea, actually tension between groups is the same no matter what you do.
Right?

>>14064340
You should actually READ Chesterton, BHF, he opposed eugenics. He wrote a book on the subject called Eugenics and Other Evils.
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/25308

>>14064340
>jiggered
Not at all, the facts presented in The Bell Curve are settled science. Also "jigger" is racist as hell. Better hope antifa doesn't catch you using such a word! ;-)

>>14065772
>no matter what you do
Sectarianism has been a feature of all human societies, but does seem to have reduced, in the west at least, since WWII so maybe we are doing something right.

>>14065837
A jigger is a device used in bars

>>14065827
LOL butt hurt fly doesn't read these books, she just knows that OTHER people say they are bad. Instead of reading GKC or the Bell Curve and deciding for herself she lets other people do her thinking for her. Cringe and Bluepilled behaviour for a supposed anarchist.

>>14065847
It is listed here as referring to Negroes...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs

>>14065838
Maybe, or maybe we are doing something wrong. I vote that it is wrong, and that is the way the pendulum is going these days. This whole multiculti thing is a flash in the pan from the perspective of the last few thousand years, and it is collapsing from its internal contradictions.

>>14065739
You have it backwards. The lack of a welfare state was an indicator that one was not needed due to the high level of social cohesion we once enjoyed in this country.

>>14064466
>>14064340
Murray gives a more coherent/statistically backed explanation for the causes and effects of "assortative mating" in Coming Apart. He shows that due to a combination of unprecedented mobility (inter and intranational) and because of filtration mechanisms like the SAT/ACT, high IQ individuals are forming breeding populations in places like the Boston suburbs, New York, Chicago suburbs and the DC metro area. Whether you think IQ is a function of biology or class/education, this stratification is occurring either way.

>>14065827
That was the point I was trying to make

>>14065970
Not really convinced by that line of thought desu.

>>14065739
Most of the fucking book is made up of statistics establishing that community participation/social capital is decreasing rapidly.

Racial homogeneity isn't a cure-all for dysfunction but multiethnic societies demonstrably have fissures along ethnic lines. Hence why China spends millions trying to breed Tibetans out of existence, why Jews had some understandable reservations about the Germans' growing distaste for international finance.
Within the US, diversity within communities is associated with lower levels of social trust. At the workplace level, with lower employee productivity. (Across races.)

>>14066012
Yep, I also think that modern China and Nazi Germany should be our go-to comparisons when discussing these issues

>>14065739
>The lack of a welfare state would suggest otherwise.
This is the most retarded shit i have yet read.

>>14065838
By what measure?
You're posting in a thread about a book that details the decline of social cohesion in america.
What do you have besides the old
>Duuh nothing has ever actually changed
line.

>>14066012
For
>>14065739

And on the welfare thing, in The Road to Wigan Pier Orwell reports that while rural communities were in material terms poorer than the developing industrial areas, the people there suffered less because of the informal ways people helped each other: taking meals together, doing pro Bono work, or just giving cash. So social trust *does* reduce the need for a bureaucratic welfare state, which is the product of a society of alienated individuals who need to be bribed not to storm the castle and behead theor oppressors.

>>14066053
>By what measure?
I'd say there is less sectarian violence now than in eg the holocaust or the 30 years war.
I'm not convinced by the argument that a country with segregation has more social cohesion than one without. He seems to think segregation doesn't count when doing his measurement

>>14061965
had to read in university
it's a weird book since most left leaning people agreed with the entirety of the message it had but got jittery around the implication that "outsiders = bad" implications his findings had

>>14066059
America was not a rural society in the period when most other developed countries were developing welfare states, so I'm not sure the example is valid. It seems very unlikely that a segregated nation of immigrants had more trust than eg Sweden in the same period. A more likely explanation for the lack of a welfare state is a lack of social cohesion, particularly between black and white America. Even now nobody wants to pay taxes to increase welfare

>>14066001
As any anarchist will tell you, human society can and did support itself without the intervention of the state. As human society became more fractured through industrialisation and the mass population movements that the Capitalists/Globalists encourage so as to acquire cheap labour, "welfare" programmes are introduced to try and replace what had been an organic function of the family and the community.

>>14066098
>human society can and did support itself without the intervention of the state.
Yes and the poor starved to death in droves every winter

>>14066076
Unfair comparison. The point of segregation is to have to two societies with higher cohesion than the one mixed society. Whether it's moral or whether it works I'll leave to you.

>>14066109
Don't think it's unfair
>if you ignore all the people we've completely ostracised, we're a pretty tight knit bunch

>>14066076
You're picking up on one of the central implicit contentions of the right; that communal feeling is antithetical to inclusiveness. That communities derive their vital energy and "closeness" or "homeness" precisely because they are exclusionary

>>14066132
The point is who's we? Whites had their own spaces, blacks had their own spaces. Within these societies, there was cohesion relative to the current divide that has to cross racial lines. Desegregation is the story of blacks coveting access to white spaces. It's lebensraum and behind the egalitarian language it's the same tribal conflict it's always been.

>>14066133
They do, though.

>>14066076
How would you even know? You haven't read the book, you barely even know what the fucking thing is about.
>I'm not convinced by the argument that a country with segregation has more social cohesion than one without
You're arguing against the idea that racial diversity inherently causes a decline in community trust/participation and your evidence is that racial groups were separated therefore they couldn't have had stronger communities? segregated communities, are not part of the same community. I doubt you'll notice how retarded this is but holy shit.
The entire book in the OP is about how social capital has declined. Reams of hard statistical evidence, you can't dismiss that by saying they had or didn't have laws you don't like.
If you're going to be this much of a fuckwit at least be a communist.

>>14066108
Says who?
You are describing post industrial societies that have been fragmented by Capitalism.

>>14066133
Obviously, groups don't exist without distinction.

>>14066182
>>14066207
Yeah I agree with the sentiment, I just wanted to put it in honest terms as to get it out in the open because there is a decent discussion going on here. This neglected aspect of community will probably end up bringing about a terrible reckoning for the left...because many of them agree with it already through their defenses of pluralism and hostility towards Western/American unipolarity.

Bump.

>>14062793
Go back to /pol/ you retard. Implementing an ethnostate won't get you laid

>>14066175
>let's treat 12.4% of our population as subhuman in the name of social cohesion

imagine being this much of a /pol/tard.
I have a different idea, how about we murder all right wingers in the name of social cohesion? Shit we might get rid of global warming as a bonus. Seems like a much better idea.

>>14061965
I used to think he wasn't right but the new wave of the internet has ironically destroyed any sense of social cohesion of the early and middle internet

Around 10 years ago I was exposed to his work back in a day when I was a part of a ~100 member gaming clan, our network was much more widely distributed than say the local shriners but we did a lot of the same stuff, mentored younger guys (ages ranged from teenagers to 50+) acted as a community group, raised money for a charitable cause and donated to a political campaign together. We had an annual parts drive for computers to get upgrades for the poorfags. We had members in 30 states and 9 countries and members of all of the races though obviously most of us were white americans. Our incomes ranged from probably sub-$20k/year to the upper end of six figures. In a lot of ways the type of organization we had, and that a lot of people had back in the late 90s to the early 10s felt like it was doing more, and doing more better than the local community groups that I was also a member of.

But for whatever reason things started going to shit, not just in my group but across the web. There are not very many of these sorts of large and deep groups anymore, they've shifted to small friend cliques, the large groups are extremely loose compared to what they used to be, mostly just an affiliation rather than a broader activities group. My original take on his work was that he was a boomer who was understanding a transformation in human relationships as a loss of human relationships because while he could see something vanishing, he wasn't well aware of what was on the other side of the wall.

Maybe I'm just a boomer like him or something but the internet has now become a mob affair since unlike 2000-2010 literally everyone has access and constant real-time access at that, I know that the early adopters felt the same way after the post AOL internet. You no longer come home from work, sit down at the PC and play with the boys. You are constantly connected to everyone at every time.

>>14067509
Much better to exterminate left-wingers. No more force-fed propaganda throughout mass media, safer and cleaner cities, the death of identity politics, the return of scientific progress, etc.

>>14064309
>I've been kicked out of 109 different bars
>It's never my fault though

>>14067349
>vehicular homicide is sooo funnae
Hope you die alone

>>14068300
The obese mudshark had a heart attack

>>14064309
In this case, yes... obviously.

>>14067463
Every country is basically an ethnostate. I don't think anyone is dumb enough to think multiculturalism will work if the just look at history. Biology and psychology basically agree.

>>14067509
Segregation wasn't about treating blacks like subhumans in fact they did better under it than the do now. The argument boiled down to stupid shit yet again like inferior public water fountains.

>>14068300
She died of a heart attack.

>>14069800
So they let the proudboy out, did they?
She was gonna die that day with out without him ramming a car into her. Is that right?
The protest organizers fault for encouraging weak hearted people like her to go outside where a speeding car could accidentally trigger their heart condition. Leftists killed her, is what you're saying, right?

>>14067463
Not implementing one won't get you laid, either.