/lit/ - Literature

>>14036024
How is a fiction book going to turn you into a believer? I swear you religious people say the craziest things. First prove Yahweh exists and did all the things he said he did in the Bible and then we'll talk.

>>14036024
>Can you guys recommend some book that can turn an atheist into a believer?
The Qura'an
May Allah guide your heart to his faith

>>14036024
Novels aren't really meant to proselytize--They're more of a litmus test to rediscover what you already believe. If you're struggling with religion, Ivan's meeting with Alyosha in the middle will be most validating.

Infinite Jest might be good to read after Kierkegaard--See how Wallace fashions those ideas for the 21st century.

>>14036024
This worked for me

>>14036024
what do you think books are?

>>14036301
book is book

>>14036024
I'm an atheist and after reading that book, I remain an atheist however it made me like Jesus more if that counts for anything. You can still find comfort in Jesus Christ while being an atheist. It's called Christian atheism. It sounds like an oxymoron but it's the higher IQ version of Christianity, without believing in supernatural bullshit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_atheism

>>14036293
This OP.
If you read the original french get the Michel Le Guern edition.

That being said, Brothers Karamazov is an amazing book and I highly suggest it.

The Brothers Karamazov is a great book, but it's not meant to be a devotional book either. To me, it just presents a very honest depiction of the human condition. Religion is the part of this condition which people have denied in the modern age, making it more jarring when someone like Dostoevsky make a full exposition of what it means to believe.

If Crime and Punishment is anything to go by, Dostoyevsky's religious scenes can range from deeply moving (Sonya reading the story of Lazarus) to artificial and sentimental (Raskolnikov's ultimate conversion).

>>14036718
>If Crime and Punishment is anything to go by, Dostoyevsky's religious scenes can range from deeply moving (Sonya reading the story of Lazarus) to artificial and sentimental (Raskolnikov's ultimate conversion)

>>14036729
sorry ignore the green, I deleted my post because the spoiler tag didn't work

>>14036024

The Unbearable Wholeness Of Being By Ilia Delio

John Macmurray's Religious Philosophy: What It Means to Be a Person by Esther McIntosh

All books in The C.S. Lewis signature collection.

Lies We Believe About God By Wm Paul Young

My Descent Into Death By Howard Storm

Cold Case Christianity By J Warner Wallace

The Case For Christ By Lee Strobel

I have yet to find a book that will do that. I’ve read Dosto, Lewis, Chesterton, and others. But I still see no reason to believe in the supernatural.

>>14036035
> Takes the Bible literally
> Hahaha Staunch rationality wins again, why can't we all get along and adopt liberal Globalism OR herhereher there's no God and white's are the best, so it's me a pathetic fat virgin's responsibility to take over the world

>>14037354
Being and Time, Pensees, Augustine Confessions, Aquinas Shorter Summa, Some Platonic dialogues, Fear and Trembling, Thus Spoke Zarathustra, and the Bible.

>>14037392
I’ve read some of the Pensees and excerpts from Augustine, and some Platonic dialogs. And obviously I’ve read the Bible.

I’m afraid I didn’t really get it.

>>14036024
Just read saint thomas aquinas. He will convert you.

>>14036024
>I read Kierkegaard, he said that there're three ways to deal with the absurdity that's the existence
Why trip yourself over pseudointellectual mumbo jumbo? Just live your life happily and productively.
Brothers Karamazov is a great novel, but I skipped over a 20-page long speech at the end. Or was that Anna Kareninna?

>>14037354

The Self Does Not Die: Verified Paranormal Phenomena from Near-Death Experiences
by Titus Rivas, Anny Dirven, Rudolf H. Smit

Then followed by...

Evidence of the Afterlife: The Science of Near-death Experiences By Dr Jeffrey Long

God and the Afterlife: The Groundbreaking New Evidence for God and Near-Death Experience
by Jeffrey Long

After those books... I would advise watching this video...

After that, I think that something might 'click', after all Christian writers you've previously read..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLC4X0gQVAc

(That video in and of itself won't be convincing IMO. But after you've gone through the research regarding Near Death Experiences in that book... I think you'll see it differently. Can't skip the ground work though, but seeing as you seem to enjoy reading - otherwise why are you here? - it won't take you long to work through the 3 books that I mentioned.)

>>14036024
I can understand the existential crisis and shit, but what I don't get is how you still can convert. I'd like to follow a religion if it would make me happy, but I know god doesn't exist and it's all some fucking retarded bullshit. I don't get how you can be an atheist who knows god doesn't exist and convert, since there's no actual evidence of his existence so that doesn't make any sense.

>>14036024
A believer in what? In a certain religion? What helped me believe is first studying the concept of god philosophically and metaphysical terms before going and studying different religions. You need to realize that religion isn't the end all be all of the belief in god. The sad truth is, subconsciously when people think god, they think of this being that is inherently illogical, simply because they have grown up in such an environment that makes it seem so. Think of God separate to religion, judge the logic, do the research, and then subscribe to the religion you see fits your ideas the most. Stop expecting to be able to suddenly understand religion in hopes of being swept by it into existential bliss.

>>14037865

> I don't get how you can be an atheist who knows god doesn't exist and convert, since there's no actual evidence of his existence so that doesn't make any sense.

You can be an Atheist and practice Christianity, it's called Religious Naturalism.

God is treated as a metaphor, and the Gospels are treated as a cosmic narrative, to personify the processes of universe, so that it will stimulate our emotional nature... Towards happiness and pro-social behaviour.

You can use prayer, as a psychological practice for concentrate your thoughts and intent on something.

You can use the Spiritual practices and virtues found in Christianity as a framework for personal development.

Loyal Rue is an Atheist philosopher who argues about the importance of religion, and says that when it's disregarded, it has disastrous consequences. He says that religious serves a necessary biological and religious function. He argues that when we turn away from religion we turn to things like consumerism, hedonism, and materialism and elevate them to near transcendental status.

I believe he's right... Look at how millionaires, billionaires and CEOs are revered by the media, feminists, and secular humanists in general.

Look at how Careers are treated with the kind of devotion of mind, body and spirit, in the same way that religion used to. Look at how C.E.O.s and business owners are revered in our society.

Studies show that religious people are happier, than non-religious people.

You don't have to believe in the supernatural to be religious.

There are 2 books about everything I just wrote called:

Religion Is Not About God By Loyal Rue
Thank God For Evolution By Michael Dowd

A book that also can be taken metaphorically is;

The Unbearable Wholeness Of Being; God, Evolution And The Power Of Love By ilia Delio

These videos also explain for free what I've been rambling about...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JH493NsM31Y

(Only the first 9 minutes is necessary...)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loBx1Xd2m-M

Christian spirituality combined with secular psychology, will IMO make you happier.

>>14037980
Literally pointless. If you believe this, you are meta-larping and should just stick to self help books if that's all you desire from religion, a domain which is inherantly supernatural.

>>14037988

>Literally pointless.

The videos show why self-help and secular humanism, can not provide the psychological and social benefits of religion. Even if people want it to.

Self help and secular humanism, can not provide a cross-cultural and transnational language, practices, rituals which aid social cohesion. Religions is centuries old, it is deeply entrenched in various national cultures.

Here is a Secular Humanist Philosopher stating that there are various practices that religion does, that secular humanists need to take from religion, because secular society does not have those practices... And he argues that they are important for human well-being..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Oe6HUgrRlQ

Religion does things that secular humanism, and secular society simply doesn't, and can't. The 3 videos that I've posted explain why.

>>14037865
Nobody knows anything when it comes to problems like God, stop being so sure of something you obviously have made no effort to research, apart from the le big floating king in sky. Evidence of existence my ass, you talk like a fucking twitter Athiest.

>>14037980
>You can be an Atheist and practice Christianity
>You can be an Atheist and not be an Atheist at once
stfu brainlet lmaoooo

>>14037381
based schizo retard

>>14037980
>capitalizing atheist
i'm going to kill you frfrfrfrfrfrfrfrfr REEEEEE

>>14038045
If religion helps you in worldly success you aren't following a religion, but rather some sort of protestant pseudo-religion. The fact that someone would do such a thing is beyond absurd. Either commit to a tradition or don't. Don't just larp in the middle and cope by saying you are just trying to get the best. If you want worldly success, just throw away all fetters of religion and go full blown atheism materialism. If you want spirituality and metaphysics, do not. You can't try and claim both.

>>14036024
The experience of God by David Bentley Hart

>>14038062
nobody knows that there isn't a flying nigger monster in the universe aswell, does that mean that it doesn't exist?

>>14038065
>stfu brainlet lmaoooo

Christian metaphysics.
Christian Ethics.
Christian psychology.
Christian rituals.

You don't need to believe the metaphysics, in order to adopt the ethics, psychology, and rituals.

>>14038117
yes you do. The ethics psychology and rituals are all based on the metaphysics of the incarnation, the trinity, etc. If you don't believe that there is a metaphysical change in being between the sinner and the virtuous, there is no point in adhering to Christian ethics.

>>14038117
The psychology implies belief in the metaphysics and in the efficacy of the rituals, and the ethics is justified by the metaphysics.

>>14038081

>If religion helps you in worldly success

Wordly (in Christian terms, I'm a Theist and Chrisitan Just so you know) means materialism, sensory pleasures, etc.

Nothing I said was about using religion in order to make more money, get more possessions, gain higher social status, etc.

I was advising Atheists that they can use Christian to improve their happiness and characters.

>The fact that someone would do such a thing is beyond absurd. Either commit to a tradition or don't.

It doesn't have to be either/or. There is no black and white.

You don't need to believe the metaphysics of Christian are accurate, in order to adopt Christian; ethics, psychology and rituals.

>>14038136
What about bearing the cross don't you understand. Christianity is not meant to make you happy. That's not the point.

>>14038117
>The ethics psychology and rituals are all based on the metaphysics of the incarnation, the trinity, etc

Just because it's based off of that, doesn't mean that it can't be practice independently of that.

Following Jesus example of how to treat other people, can be followed by someone who doesn't believe that Jesus is the literal incarnation of God.

I don't know why you seem to think that is literally impossible to do. As if someone can't take Jesus as a role model, and not believe that he was the incarnation of God... Please explain why you think that is impossible.

>>14037660
moron

>>14038144

>What about bearing the cross don't you understand. Christianity is not meant to make you happy. That's not the point.

That's you're understanding of Christianity.

IMO (and the opinion of other Christians) Christianity is about eternal happiness.

>>14037980
>He argues that when we turn away from religion we turn to things like consumerism, hedonism, and materialism and elevate them to near transcendental status.
It already happened with religion.
>I believe he's right... Look at how millionaires, billionaires and CEOs are revered by the media, feminists, and secular humanists in general.
Media and feminists are irreligious? Rich aren't revered by the religious? Nonsense. By what data did you reckon that secular humanists revere the rich more than others?
>Look at how Careers are treated with the kind of devotion of mind, body and spirit, in the same way that religion used to.
Lol are you in Japan or Korea?
>Look at how C.E.O.s and business owners are revered in our society.
Rich, famous people are revered. How shocking! Totally new development from the loss of religion from the society, no other possible factor at play!
Above all else, your post bewrays a complete trivialization of the individual's will, where the irreligious is helplessly condemned to a life of hedonism and material worship.
Don't like those things? Just avoid them; you don't need to get permission from a religion you don't even believe.

>>14038158
Eternal happiness in the world to come, not on earth. If you are an atheist you don't believe in the world to come, therefore making the endeavors on earth pointless.

>>14038127
>The psychology implies belief in the metaphysics

The psychology can be justified by rational grounds too.

Secular psychology and sociology supports the benefits of; forgiveness, praying for others, increasing compassion feelings, forming close positive relationships with others, community, etc.

Like I said, I'm a Christian...

And IMO Christianity can be justified from a secular foundation, and from a supernatural foundation... IMO that is a strength.

>>14038144
>Christianity is not meant to make you happy.
Yes it was meant to make you happy.
The gospels are called good news for a reason lol.

>>14036024
Just believe you fucking faggot. It’s called faith for a reason. It doesn’t matter if your image of that which we call God is an old man in the sky or a light being or merely your ancestral thread through the ages. You can either continue to try to approach it logically and rationally and continue to get nowhere or you can finally surrender yourself to the great mystery and let your ego fall away. Drop the lie and admit to yourself that you know nothing other than you are here. And even though you know not what is before you, embrace that which is coming. Once you choose the latter, congratulations, you finally have humility. That’s the first step on your way to true freedom. Welcome to the faith.

>>14038174
Eternal life begins on Earth though

>>14038180
I hate secularism I want my christian theocracy and I want it now!

>>14038100
Holy fuck you are from twitter, come on reply "That's not an arguement" to this post.

>>14038174
Not him, but "atheism" means "lack of belief" in deities, not an afterlife. You can believe in a soul and an afterlife while not believing in any deities.

>>14038181
What sort of Christianity are you reading into? Good news doesn't mean happy news. Every early Saint had to be willing to die for the faith. Every traditionally pious Christian willingly fasted multiple days a week. They gave up sex, fancy food, etc. These are not fun things to do for an atheist and would make no sense for them to give up without a religious reason.

>>14038155
Life isn't "absurd." The Absurd is an idiotic idea. It's just people panicking at the void after they changed their conceptualization of god to make it smaller than it used to be.

>>14038203
Very few people who call themselves atheists also believe in a soul and afterlife. Even though Buddhists might technically be atheists, I never see them referring to themselves as such. Atheism has a materialist foundation that most recognize, and thus, would not want to be associated with as a religious practicioner.

>>14038166
>Media and feminists are irreligious? Rich aren't revered by the religious? Nonsense. By what data did you reckon that secular humanists revere the rich more than others?

I didn't make any of those claims.

I also never made the claim that people who state they are religious, practice religion.

>Lol are you in Japan or Korea?

Money, Career and Status are important here in the West too. People treat poorer people worse than they do rich people. They treat Janitors and Cleaners, worse than they do C.E.Os and Corporate executives.

>our post bewrays a complete trivialization of the individual's will, where the irreligious is helplessly condemned to a life of hedonism and material worship.

I never wrote, that and if you watched the vids I posted (I don't think you did), you'll understand the following point..

>Don't like those things? Just avoid them; you don't need to get permission from a religion you don't even believe.

Human psychology doesn't work like that.

Our preferences and motives can be influence by our social environment, and the various practices and structure of religion (like Atheist Philosopher Alain De Botton points out in the vid that I posted), attempts to motivate us to be virtuous.

Secular society leaves people to their own devices, with little to no guidance or motivation regarding happiness and interpersonal behaviour.

If a person isn't self motivated to be minimalist, kind hearted, forgiving, then secular society provides little to try to encourage them to be better.

>>14038174
>If you are an atheist you don't believe in the world to come, therefore making the endeavors on earth pointless.
Lack of an afterlife doesn't make endeavours on earth pointless. People have various short-term and long-term needs and desires.

>>14038174
>Eternal happiness in the world to come, not on earth.

The present is part of eternity... Again, I you and I simply have a different interpretation of God's nature.

I believe that God wants us to be happy and free from suffering, I believe that only evil wants humans to suffer. I believe that God wants us to be happy, I also believe that if we all earnestly tried to attain Theosis/Christificaiton, then miracles would happen regarding inspiration for medical advances, and therapeutic intervention.

Again, I believe that the present (as well as the past) is part of eternity... Logical, eternity cannot be compartmentalised into earthly life and hereafter... Otherwise it's not eternity.

>>14038226
Not the guy you're responding to but the "Cindy" posting and spacing just reeks of reddit

>>14038180
>forgiveness, praying for others, increasing compassion feelings, forming close positive relationships with others, community, etc.
Those are not exclusive to religion, except prayer, which seems to be very closely related to the others anyways. It would be disturbing if you thought those things are exclusive to religion.

>>14038200

Secularism regarding governance, and Secularism regarding culture are 2 different things.

I support secularism politically, I do not support it culturally.

>>14038249

ADHD... If I don't space, I sperg

>>14038258

I don't believe they are exclusive to religion, however like Atheist philosopher Alain De Botton argues... Religion provides a better framework for motivating people to practice those things.

>>14038205
>They gave up sex, fancy food, etc. These are not fun things to do for an atheist and would make no sense for them to give up without a religious reason.
Atheists have given up sex and fancy food for various reasons. One concrete example is in east asia. Specifically, scholars have abstained from sex and gluttony because of negative views of hedonism. Do you believe negative attitude to hedonism all around the world had purely religious origins?

>>14038329
No atheist would fast every day for a god he didn't believe in. Your east asia example is also dubious since you are not specific with when or where. The Daoist scholars would've done such things for religious reasons.

I don't think you need to be religious to do religious activities, it just does not make sense to do them. You would just be doing mental gymnastics when you could just get to the point and either commit or not.

>>14038213
Atheism does not have a materialist foundation, New Atheism does. Atheism simply means "lack of belief in deities". That said, your assertions are accurate given the cultural milieau of the present West (which would be fine in most contexts you direct it towards), but not regarding the world as a whole, or of philosophy in general.

Having actually read the book I say that the dialogue about how christianity is the peak of actual, moral movement in the world is a pretty convincing argument.

Has there really been another point in the history of man which connected so many people with a strong moral code?

By this i don't mean that people haven't used christianity to do terrible things.

>>14036035
I refuse to believe anyone is this dumb. But if you don’t read fiction then I guess it’s understandable. >>14036035

>>14038226
>Secular society leaves people to their own devices, with little to no guidance or motivation regarding happiness and interpersonal behaviour.
>If a person isn't self motivated to be minimalist, kind hearted, forgiving, then secular society provides little to try to encourage them to be better.
And religion, especially without belief, does?
We are programmed with empathy, love, kindness, generosity, and good will, just as we are programmed with negative behaviours. We have an innate sense of justice and good-will. Parents teach their children to be good. Schools let children learn positive social interaction in a supervised environment. The criminal justice system attempts to reform those who do wrong. Society through various media praise kindness and condemn evil. There's a cacophany of collective moral guidance and instruction. Does religion contribute? Probably. But its lack won't leave a directionless vacuum.

>>14036024
just read the bible stupid fuck.
don't take what liberals have sold you all these years.
if you are a atheist be it by you own account, and work.
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

>>14038380
>I don't think you need to be religious to do religious activities, it just does not make sense to do them.
Agreed, but you said atheists have no reason to give up sex or food, but there are many reasons to give up sex or food. People value chastity and dislike gluttony for non-religious reasons.
Korean confucian scholars practised temperate modest lifestyle for dignity and the pursuit of righteousness and scholarship. Some would stab their thigh with a needle to drive away sexual temptation. Vegans give up animal products out of concern for the environment. People fast in political protest. Most societies deride gluttonous people and condemn excessive fornication.

>>14038434

>We are programmed with empathy, love, kindness, generosity, and good will, just as we are programmed with negative behaviours. We have an innate sense of justice and good-will

We are also programmed for violence, status seeking, selfishness, etc.

The programs that become stronger, are the ones that are fed.

> Parents teach their children to be good.

A lot of parents don't do any extensive or repetitive moral teaching to their children.

Also, what if their parents don't do any moral teaching? Do we just leave the children to hopefully internally generate kindness?

>Schools let children learn positive social interaction in a supervised environment.

Have you heard of the 'hidden curriculum", it's basically what kids learn from their peers during school. Bullying is a universal problem in school.

I don't know what country you are in, but moral teaching is not part of the school curriculum where I am, and bullying IME happens in many, many schools. Kids learn from their peers, as well as from teachers.

>The criminal justice system attempts to reform those who do wrong

I don't think you've done much research into the prison system.

If you look at what actually lower recividism rates around the world, it's education and therapy. Politicians in the US have actually cut education programs, despite studies showing it lowers recidivism rate.

The prison system (almost universally, with notable exception in Europe) is about punishment, not reformation. People want prisoners to 'pay for their crimes' not to be reformed and rehabilitated. If they did, education and therapy would be a priority, woven into every prison... I promise you it isn't, but please do your own research.

> Society through various media praise kindness and condemn evil.

It condemns overt evil like physical abuse, or aggressive verbal abuse. However, things like status seeking, revenge, sarcastic put downs, etc are rewarded and praised by mainstream media and society. I'll never forget when Oliver Stone said... "We don't present forgiveness in our movies, we present revenge fantasies"... The person who is beaten down, but then years later is now superior to the people who looked down on them and intimidates/kills/beats up the people who did them wrong.

We also praise chasing money, above all other concerns. Devoting your life to your career, and climbing the corporate ladder is praised in media more than being a good mother or a good father.

The heroes of our society are not the moral exemplars, IMO.

>There's a cacophany of collective moral guidance and instruction

Like Alain De Botton says... It's there passively, waiting in books in libraries.

(Like Alain says) Religion was designed with the understand of how to generate enthusiasm, and with the understanding of the necessity of repetition.

>But its lack won't leave a directionless vacuum.

IMO it's lack will leave us to the direction of the trends of the mainstream and social media.

>>14038405
How are you gonna prove Yahweh exists in a fiction book?

>>14038479
>just read the bible
Sound advice.