/lit/ - Literature

the only reason this thread is made 1000 times a day is cause none of you ever give rational answers

posting in a satgloee thread

a lot of people are stupid what can you do

Because we want to experience a world outside our own. Also it's fucking entertaining. It's like asking why people play video games/ watch movies/ play sports. Its for the entertainment!

very nice

I am monitoring this thread

Because Gene Wolf is a better writer than, well, everybody else.

>>1402389
>ever give rational answers
because people like to read fiction regardless of its time setting or relation to reality - since, by definition, it is fiction

good night

/thread

Because you can learn the most about the human condition when it is placed in an unfamiliar context.

When you'e making shit up, you might as well make up something interesting.

>>1402404
let me know when any of the information you obtain from intellectuals fighting dragons becomes applicable to society

>>1402410
He didn't say anything about society.......

>>1402410
well no wonder you lack imagination. What if word "dragon" was metaphor for all things corrupted? would that help your peabrain?

>>1402425
honestly it'd be easier if you just called the character "batman" and went over to /co/

>>1402410
allegories of real life issues & challenges, thus a consequence of what that tripfag initially said: sword vs dragon is unfamiliar context, it helps you learn about Man's real struggles with a greater, clearer picture

inb4 only weak minds need drawings to understand a concept: collective consciousness is far more important than your small circle of hipster conceptualists

Also there is something wrong in your initial post:
>inb4escapism, if you wanted to escape reality you should just kill yourself
Escapism is different from escaping reality, you seem to confuse the notion of literary exotism and schizoid irresponsibility. If the subject wanted escapism, it implies the subject enjoys life, thus will not want to end it. Even a highschooler wouldn't be so proficient in amalgams.

wow I just replied thoroughly to a tripfag pulling a shit tier troll, feels... Strange !

OP has clearly never read Vonnegut.

OP, you are a bore, you are just too afraid to admit it.

>>1402410
Are you not able to discern good literature from bad?

>>1402435
i'm not even trolling
you'd know this if you weren't mentally retarded and too busy defending the fantasy genre and actually knew how to read i clearly said in my 2nd post why i made this thread

>>1402438
i've read slaughterhouse-five and all it was was a cheap imitation of hemingway with aliens

>>1402435
>mfw tripfag gets raped by knowledgeable anon

>>1402444
you just cokblock all the ration answers, because that's what trolls do

>>1402425
>What if word "dragon" was metaphor for all things corrupted?

>>1402435
>allegories of real life issues & challenges, thus a consequence of what that tripfag initially said: sword vs dragon is unfamiliar context, it helps you learn about Man's real struggles with a greater, clearer picture

This is the worst sort of fake justification people give for what they try to hail as art

Space Invaders is an allegory for the encroachment of Society
Pac-Man's eating is a metaphor for drug addiction
The back and forthing of the ball in Pong is analogous to the Hegelian Dialectic

It is really sickening the sort of stupid shit ignorant charlatans will project into texts that are really otherwise very unfruitful and uninteresting

why is question limited to sci-fi/fantasy? it's really not that much different from all fiction. i think the so-called classics are nothing more than entertainment. everyone thinks they're so cultured and shit for reading books but it's no different than watching football or playing video games.

>>1402444
>overly long unreadable marcel proust wannabe sentence
>troll claiming srsbsnss but uses the expression mentally retarded
>vonnegut "cheap imitation of hemingway with aliens"

>>1402455
reading books for entertainment = doing it wrong
there's a reason people assign reading books as homework

>>1402458
why don't you enlighten us with the reason then pointdexter

>>1402463
if fantasy reading mouthbreathers are so smart then i shouldn't have to

stag how did your amateur court session go at school? :)

>>1402468
the competition is in february it hasn't happened yet

why the fuck i should read about everyday people doing everyday things? i can do those things myself, it does nothing but repeat things i already know about life and shit. why the fuck should i sit and read analysis after analysis about how shitty life is? i know that already. Why the fuck should i care is people who suffered and rotted away really existed? make no difference to me if they actually lived or were figment of imagination. Why should i care if the things happened in USA France of Venus, again makes no difference to me. And what matter if the protagonist was little green alien with 7 toes or a bald fat man who spend his life on a couch? I'm not either, but it doesn't mater as long as i can associate with them.

i don't want to escape reality permanently, so the suicide thing is a bad idea. i don't know how you could advise that, op. it's pretty irresponsible. oh i get, this is 4chan, ha ha, nigger nigger faggot troll, etc. now you can imagine why smart people need to escape. congratulations, you make a difference after all.

depends on what kind of sci-fi/fantasy book it is. there different ways people go about the genre. There's literary Sci-fi/fantasy that generally tries to explore issues that would be too sensitive or too complex to place in a modern or non-fantastical setting. There's also purely entertainment pieces that use imagery from beyond this world that fits what your needs your plot/characters desire to be satisfactory for the reader. Then there's the varying gray areas in-between.

>>1402458
you know people read books before they were assigned as homework? and in some countries books are never assigned as homework and people still read them, amazing, ha? get out your little comfy bubble.

what is wrong is reading books as a chore. it's counterproductive..

>>1402464
what? my point was that fantasy and all fiction is no better than sitting on your ass and watching football. you're the one who thinks reading is so superior and besides you made the claim there's a difference, so back it up

Kafka, Borges = fantasy.

Nothing wrong with it, although fantasy has been taken over by dragons and elves which makes it less appealing to some.

Philip K. Dick is another writer worthy of anyone's time. His writing uses science fiction to do things others can't. Take Ubik or the fantastic VALIS for instance.

They function as resumes.

>>1402458

Because using the distant future with realistic qualities is quite interesting and could end up being a great work of literature.

See Brave New World and 1984

also Stagolee is a faggot who knows nothing about the beauty of a good story and loves to shoves people, books, and anything relative into stereotypes rather than searching for the key differences in each individual.

Fuck you faggotass tripnigger.

>>1402497

I think you're confusing the fantastika tradition and fantasy.

>>1402452
there is no limit to the definition of Art, and in the end, as you ironically put it out as an argument for your own position, it is indeed up to interpretation.

That's for the first level, the subjective side of things. Then, on a broader scale (think academics) what is wrong with your statement is that you products defined by and clearly aimed at entertainment, with a very wide range of different books. Kind of the same amalgam as trololOP who assimilates escapism with fantasy or sci-fi in general. Which is deeply wrong: it is relative to the author, the book, the intention, the strength of the world's design. For instance, why not enjoy reading a story for the sole enjoyment of its lengthy descriptions of alien flora ? Aren't they a manifestation of nature's beauty, technology's influence on cosmic & Darwinian awareness, thus, by definition, art ? Wouldn't you agree to say your problem lies more in how strict, clumsy your expectations towards literature are, how much constrictions you apply on fiction and its ?

>>1402534
and its definition or supposed objectives ?

There is something very important one must realize: the only defining difference between fiction and science-fiction or fantasy is the setting. It doesn't say anywhere, in the ever-evolving definition of these literary genres, that they are centered on exotism, even if it is more prominent as both a selling point and a critical achievement than, say, Austen's works. Which, it is relevant to note, are attempting the exact same thing since it bends the laws of nature as much as Jules Vernes does. A point explored in the BBC miniseries "Lost in Austen" where a contemporary british girl goes to the universe of Austen - notice how I refrain from employing the term time of Austen since there is no such thing: one has to be aware that Pride & Prejudice is more than an era, it is a very specific author's vision. Thus even more blurring (and confirming) the subtle distinction between the subgenres of fiction. Consequently, why can't you realize the importance of a story's impact, beauty and message is the same regardless of the characters ?

they read it to extend their childhood because being an adult frightens them

On books having a strictly educational aim because some of them are homework: it's more of a modern problem. Technology has invaded media, so people play video games instead of reading, and even if there has always been book study in schools, it was certainly not the same as today where teachers literally have to force jane eyre through the throats of many. Nevertheless, books, as one of the oldest artistic expressions of Man, holds a fundamentally abstract dimension, since it comes from archaic language, aka poetry. Don't forget before books, there were mural paintings, repeated sounds. And no, they (homo X) weren't "escapists" (you know what I mean) because underevolved, but because it is the primary consequence of conscience in general: the desire to reflect upon one's self, upon one's universe, upon one's ability to create & equal, surpass nature.

Completely disregarding low tier trolling and taking the time to consider, ponder, reply as respectfully as the most generous gentleman would do was a fantastic experiment I would gladly reengage in. Feels like understanding Bruce Lee's theory of opponents not existing in a fight, instead simply being empty reflections of one's self.

>>1402545
being an adult frightens me & i dont read these 'genres'.

>>1402562
face your fears faggot being an adult owns sex owns drinking beer owns

>what is wrong with your statement is that you products defined by and clearly aimed at entertainment, with a very wide range of different books. Kind of the same amalgam as trololOP who assimilates escapism with fantasy or sci-fi in general
not entirely sure what of you're accusing me here sorry

>relative to the author
the author is dead

>the book (text)
not much of a point made here because that is the object of study we are concerned with as opposed to vegetables and toasters

>the intention
intentional fallacy

>the strength of the world's design
>strength
arbitrary, conforming to some relative end

>why not enjoy reading a story for the sole enjoyment of its lengthy descriptions of alien flora ?
You can enjoy the story by wiping your arse with it for all I care

>Aren't they a manifestation of nature's beauty, technology's influence on cosmic & Darwinian awareness
that is what you project into the text, those "messages" also mean absolutely nothing to me and have no impact whatsoever on me because I consider them false values in a faulty aesthetic system

>thus, by definition, art
hahaha no, it does not follow, see my point above as well

>ldn't you agree to say your problem lies more in how strict, clumsy your expectations towards literature are, how much constrictions you apply on fiction and its ?
I haven't given any expectations or constrictions

>and its definition or supposed objectives
I have not defined it nor given it any telos

>the only defining difference between fiction and science-fiction or fantasy is the setting
l2Genre studies, laughably reductionist

>>1402568
not fears, ive drunk alcohol many times. they aren't my things these things.

>>1402410

Maybe you should go away and read Book I of The Faerie Queene.

>>1402575
gettin trounced by d&e yall

>>1402547
>Nevertheless, books, as one of the oldest artistic expressions of Man, holds a fundamentally abstract dimension, since it comes from archaic language, aka poetry
Superstitious drivel; oooohhh it's old undecipherable writing ooga booga booga. It's like you haven't read a page of structuralism.

Why do people read non-fiction? If you want to experience something non-fictional why not just go outside and live life instead of reading books?

>>1402590
methinks thou hast not readest yet of a song of fire and ice by geaorge rr martin and command thee to peruse it henceforth guv'nuh

this thread confuses me, so help me out.

I've read Dostoevsky, Tolstoy, Nietzsche, Hemingway, many many other classics, I've read Plato (in native language no less), Herodotus, most of this before i was 18. It was not for school assignment, i was curious and i happen to like reading. I plan to re-read Dostoevsky when I'm 50 to get a different perspective on it. I also read Tolkien, Asimov, Arthur Clarke, Pratchett, Gibson and so many others it would take forever to list them all. And I loved all of it.

After reading this thread what confuses me is that I don't know, is my penis big or small? According to OP if you don't read fantasy/sci-fi you have big penis, but if you do you only have a tiny one. It's all so confusing.

>>1402590

He's referring to structuralism. And he's sincerely using it as a means to support his argument! It's like it's 1960 in here!

>>1402619
It could archetypal and myth theory for all I care bro try to look at the bigger picture here inb4transcendentalsigs

>>1402452

Yea....no. Watch this

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/2545-Narrative-Mechanics

>>1402683
>http://www.escapistmagazine.com
Come back to me when it's Oxford, Cambridge or Routledge instead of a shitty THE CAKE IS A LIE LOL gamer magazine

>games can express an idea using only their mechanics
a video-game (object of study) expressing an idea LOL, so guys when's the last time your toaster expressed an idea? When's the last time your Coffee shot a thought at you? when's the last time a piece of paper with some characters pissed out a concept for you

>>1402691
Ever played Bioshock or Fallout 3?

Of course you haven't for you can't afford a gaming system.

You're a deprived little cunt.

>>1402698
he's an xbawks multi-platform gamer like you. & thats not even an argument.

>>1402698
You're trolling of course but I have played both. Degenerate schlock for pea brained halfwits.

>>1402691
>THE CAKE IS A LIE LOL
um guess what fracktard that was a major plot development and you should have spoilerd that shit you ass trowel

>>1402691
>Oxford, Cambridge or Routledge
>hurr durr I like structuralism but think only british publishers catering to the analytic tradition are worthwhile.
>DERP

>>1402568

>Clearly not an adult

>>1402706
>for pea brained half-wits
>I played both
I'm glad D&E has come to terms with his pea brain.

>>1402691

Just watch it, it'll take 7 minutes and you'll be proven wrong.

Also
>a book (object of study) expressing an idea LOL, so guys when's the last time your toaster expressed an idea? When's the last time your Coffee shot a thought at you? when's the last time a piece of paper with some characters pissed out a concept for you

realise how stupid you sound?

>>1402710
>I like structuralism
No, it is a bit too geschichtenscheissenschlopff for my liking bro

>>1402716
Of course I'm not going to watch that moronic horseshit, its whole premise is moronic.

>realise how stupid you sound?
Everything I've said in this thread has been correct and is the product of the finest thinking one can do on the subject.

>>1402716
>thinks a book(text) can't express an idea

>>1402612

Basic rule of thumb is this; If you enjoy reading, you are a worthless fuck here.

It's the same with the other boards. If you enjoy playing video games, don't go to /v/, etc.

>>1402715
Just making sure I don't fall out of touch with the degenerate subhumans who lap this shit up.

>>1402706
lol, tripfags are the best on this board. Keep being stupid.

>>1402743
No-one has proved a single word I've said in this thread wrong.

>>1402736
I think somebody needs to be knocked off his pedestal.

His own virginity and crushing loneliness will do that for him though.

You're a loser.

>>1402720
Hmm, I'm not familiar with the term "schlopff"

>>1402736
>Just making sure I don't fall out of touch with the degenerate subhumans who lap this shit up

>>1402750
I am the best.

>>1402747
>implying a single word an have a truth value
Way to full on retard bro.

>>1402725
>Everything I've said in this thread has been correct and is the product of the finest thinking one can do on the subject.
Okay now I know your trolling

>>1402728
Completely misses the point I was making.

>>1402734
wow i never though that 4chan is so masochistic. kinky! kinda sad too, but kinky!

>>1402756
Right and Wrong has nothing to do with truth values, see Wittgenstein's Lectures on Ethics.

>>1402758
>Completely misses the point I was making.
You're not making any point, you're making noise.

>>1402763
answer my question

>>1402776
what question?

>>1402778
WHY

all i see with all the COD stuff & drinking is you trying to pretend you're not all pretentious & a common man or something.

Fact: Every piece of fiction is fantasy.

Yes, there are no dragons and vampires in real life.
But there was also no Edmond Dantès in real life, no Dr Jekyll, no Captain Ahab, no Tom Sawyer and no Sherlock Holmes.

None of those stories really happened. Could they have happened in real life? Possibly, but possibly the Lord of the Rings is happening RIGHT NOW on another planet a few galaxies away.

>>1402782
Call of Duty Modern Warefare 2 and Black Ops are both great games that are masterfully constituted, getting shitfaced every now and then with the lads is noble and edifying

>>1402761
>Right and Wrong has nothing to do with truth values, see Wittgenstein's Lectures on Ethics.
>Implying "right and wrong" only have meaning in an ethical sense and aren't commonly used for "correct or incorrect" or "true and false" given the context provided in this thread
>Implying Wittgenstein's work on ethics isn't shit compared to Stevenson's
>Implying single words can carry any meaning at all either moral or factual.

>coming back to see thread hour later or so
>d&e fell in the "I'm flamewar hurt so I quote attack you" classic since-the-newsgroups-nineties trap
>he is alone defending an argument for the sheer sake of provoking -rightfully since 4chan is lulz- people oblivious enough not to notice it
>fails at trolling anybody properly because his arguments are not in english, i.e. "It could archetypal and myth theory " and "ooga booga booga"
>I have successfuly devolved the most resilient, onanist tripfag of lit into the caveman stage of the troll, and all it took for that was being a genuinely sensible person carefully sharing a point with proper sentence structure
>I am pretty much rofl

>>1402761
Wittgenstein is very good at theory level but actually using his stuff for anything practical is goddamn hard because language-games overlap all the time and he hasn't really written anything about that (at least I haven't seen anything).

For example religious language overlaps with legal language which overlaps with god knows what because the same people are engaging in different activities and things get mixed up fast.

>>1402791
>Implying "right and wrong" only have meaning in an ethical sense
not what I implied

>commonly used for "correct or incorrect" or "true and false"
I don't care what they're commonly used for. anyway, l2emotivism or noncognitivism

>Implying Wittgenstein's work on ethics isn't shit compared to Stevenson's
Reading anything on Ethics other than Wittgenstein is a great way to retard your intellectual growth

>Implying single words can carry any meaning at all either moral or factual.
differance

>>1402785
>there was also no edmond dantes in real life

>Pierre Picaud was a 19th century shoemaker in Nîmes who may have been the basis for the character of Edmond Dantès in Alexandre Dumas, père's novel, The Count of Monte Cristo. In 1807, Picaud was engaged to marry a rich woman, but three jealous friends—Loupian, Solari, and Chaubart—falsely accused him of being a spy for England (a fourth friend, Allut, knew of their mendacity but did not report it).[1] He was imprisoned in the Fenestrelle fortress for seven years, not even learning why until his second year there.[2] During his imprisonment he ground a small passageway into a neighboring cell and befriended a wealthy Italian priest named Father Torri who was being held there.[3] When, a year later, Torri lay dying, he bequeathed to Picaud a treasure he had hidden in Milan.[4] When Picaud was released after the fall of the Imperial government in 1814, he took possession of the treasure, returned under another name to Paris and spent ten years plotting revenge against his former friends.

>>1402796
I am the best.

>>1402789
>Call of Duty Modern Warefare 2 and Black Ops are both great games that are masterfully constituted
>getting shitfaced every now and then with the lads is noble and edifying
ok ill just continue to think you're doing this to seem humble or something.

>>1402807

>Greentext block

>No source

ITT: Seventeen year old kids.

>>1402824
googling is so hard

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Picaud

Dude look at it, its clearly wikipedia, the citation style is a dead giveaway.

>>1402830

Wikipedia. Argument invalid.

Also, being based on someone does not make the character or his actions real.

>didn't bother to look at the citations
facepalm.jpg

stag remember when u had to whore out pix of ur horse face 2 get that scifi book house of leaves

>>1402859
remember how that wasn't me

ITT

Tripfags masturbating over each other

also sage fucking faggots

I came here from /v/ because of curiosity. Wow, this thread is bad even by mine standards.

>>1402378
Why are the only fucking threads those about how self fucking righteous OP is?

>>1402452
Ooh, KMFDM :3, I enjoy them.

>>1402378
Eh, I assume you're talking about Science Fiction? Or are you actually talking about sci-fi?

Why are you an elitist fag?

why even read fiction at all?

>>1402378
Because it's fun and entertaining. Are you fucking stupid?

>why do people

There will almost never be a single correct answer to questions that start out this way.

It would be better to either rephrase the question, or to stop trolling.

Why don't you read sci-fi?

It is foolish and ignorant to completely dismiss an entire genre.

>>1402378

Hey, Stag, how's it hanging?

Just out of interest, can you tell me how many works of SF and/or fantasy you've actually read? Interested minds want to know.

>>1403014

Then how is science fiction any different?

>>1403045
It's not really that different, so uh, in no way. What is your point?

>>1403053
I'm still waiting...

ITT: Implying something which is almost completely subjective (i.e. enjoying a book) has perfectly rational reasoning behind it.

I read it for entertainment. Let's just be honest with ourselves and admit that constantly hearing some prick's forced little worldview, regardless of how masterfully expressed it is, gets tiresome if not interspersed with mindless entertainment.

Ideally, SF functions as a kind of extended thought experiment. This point was made best by Ursula K. LeGuin in the forward to The Left Hand of Darkness.

ITT: STOP ENJOYING WHAT I DON'T LIKE

You don't like Fantasy/Sci-fi, OP.

If I disliked "red crayons" I would not fill my desk with them.

Throwing your toys out of the pram in frustration is not going to deepen your understanding.

Avoid the genre until you are in a more tolerant and appreciative mood.

I cannot offer you any other responses without insulting your intelligence.

Have fun, today. =)

>>1403039
I've never read any sci-fi or fantasy. If i did then i'd be a hypocrite for making this topic wouldn't i?

ITT: Butthurt. Pic related