/lit/ - Literature

>>13935134
Plato’s stance on art was pretty retarded. He would’ve been one if those “video games cause violence” type of guys if he was alive today.

>>13935146
This, and the dumbass though humans evolved from chickens. Dionysus BTFO of that pseud.

>>13935134
Physics, obviously. And medicine.

But in terms of ethics, they are unmatched.

>>13935153
>Dionysus
Diogenes

>>13935201
The most based philosopher.

As far as philosophy goes, Platonic Realism is just outright wrong, the Aztecs, Whitehead, amd Heraclitus were right. A lot of their ideas are just misplaced empiricism (teach a Greek about plate tectonics and they'd drop DUDE WIND IN GIANT CAVES LMFAO like a hot potato).

>>13935134
Having sex

>>13935134
Physics. Any time Plato and Aristotle dabble in the natural sciences, it's a big fucking cringe fest.

>>13935134
Have you forgotten pic related? I don't think they were all that crash hot. After the trial who could really keep faith in them?

>>13935134
The homosex.

>>13935201
deinonychus?

>>13935134
I don’t like their subservience to the government desu. Especially when it comes to suicide.
>suicide is bad if done because your life sucks or due to feelings
>sign of a weak willed, unmanly individual
>suicide good if you are ordered to kill yourself by the government
>sign of a strong willed manly man

>>13935535
kek

>>13935592
>suicide
The fuck are you on about? Antiquity in general had a relaxed attitude towards suicide, but then Paul arrived..

>>13935553
They were wrong to stop only at intercrural sex?

>>13935603
Plato explicitly discussed suicide in two works. First, in Phaedo, Socrates expresses guarded enthusiasm for the thesis, associated with the Pythagoreans, that suicide is always wrong because it represents our releasing ourselves (i.e., our souls) from a “guard-post” (i.e., our bodies) the gods have placed us in as a form of punishment (Phaedo 61b-62c). Later, in the Laws, Plato claimed that suicide is disgraceful and its perpetrators should be buried in unmarked graves. However, Plato recognized four exceptions to this principle: (1) when one’s mind is morally corrupted and one’s character can therefore not be salvaged (Laws IX 854a3–5), (2) when the self-killing is done by judicial order, as in the case of Socrates, (3) when the self-killing is compelled by extreme and unavoidable personal misfortune, and (4) when the self-killing results from shame at having participated in grossly unjust actions (Laws IX 873c-d). Suicide under these circumstances can be excused, but, according to Plato, it is otherwise an act of cowardice or laziness undertaken by individuals too delicate to manage life’s vicissitudes. Aristotle’s only discussion of suicide (Nicomachean Ethics 1138a5–14) occurs in the midst of a discussion of the possibility of treating oneself unjustly. Aristotle concludes that self-killing does not treat oneself unjustly so long as it is done voluntarily because the harm done to oneself is consensual. He concludes that suicide is somehow a wrong to the state or the community, though he does not outline the nature of this wrong or the specific vices that suicidal individuals exhibit.

google is your friend, friend.

>>13935134
>What did the Greeks get completely, ass-backwards WRONG ?
-ass-backwards fucking
->>13935146 this nigga
->>13935153 holy shit, source

>>13935620
>However, Plato recognized four exceptions to this principle
that's what I would call a moderate and relaxed attitude, friend

>>13935626
https://www.laphamsquarterly.org/animals/miscellany/plato-and-diogenes-debate-featherless-bipeds

>>13935146
Plato was absolutely based and redpilled on art. He wouldn't care about the violence in video games, you midwit, he would care about video games leading to the gamer phenomenon (lazy, uninspired, uncultured, entitled, hedonistic etc people) and would be absolutely right in condemning it, gamers are a fucking pest.

>>13935146
>>13935155
>>13935535
>>13935544
>>13935548
>>13935553
>>13935592
>>13935620
Reminder that this board is filled to the brim with retards. Nothing is spammed here than "start with the Greeks" yet none of you have even managed to read and understand Plato, the most pedagogical of them all. Every time a thread here deals with a topic I am remotely familiar with, I am reminded of just how infested this place is with posturing pseuds. Don't deny it, you know it's true.

>>13935782
>>13935796
Repeat after me. "Not an argument."

>>13935796
The "start with the greeks" spamming isn't done to simply shitpost, it's used to give solid advice to those of us that can overcome our neetdom and actually read the classics.

>>13935812
>arguing with retards who don't read
kys :)

>>13935876
So you claim to know what you're talking about but when you're asked to explain you have nothing to say? But everyone else is a posturing pseud, okay.

>>13935876
>everyone is a pseud but me!
>”says nothing”
valuable contributions

>>13935812
>GAMERS RISE UP!!!

>>13936582
>stale reddit memes
>fedora wojak
>all caps with exclamation marks
>>>/out/

>>13936590
t. butthurt gaymer

>>13935146
Plato AND Pythagoras were 100% right about art and music.

>>13935134
When discussing the ideal city as a thought experiment to attempt to capture Justice, Socrates mentions founding the city upon a noble lie, or noble myth, while previously he praised truth. While this noble myth is said to be one of absolute necessity I'm not convinced, I think a society founded fundamentally on untruth is one which is doomed to fail, especially if it is one in which the decision-makers have a justification to lie for the good of their state. From what I can determine all this "noble" lying does is engender within the society a resentment and growing conflict between the rulers and the ruled which leads inevitably to some form of conflict between the two whether that conflict is just ideological or also violent and physical as well. It seems contradictory since to lie to someone is to deliberately warp their perception of reality by convincing them of untruths, I would have thought that such an untruth could not fundamentally make a strong foundation for their fictional city.
>>13935782
I think he did strike on something vital and true, in that corrupted art can give rise to corrupted people, although I think that it's more a case that corrupted people create corrupted art and that a society filled with corrupted art is not corrupt because of the art, but that the art is corrupt because the society has become so for other deeper reasons. The specific way in which Plato describes Socrates suggesting that certain complex instruments and new tunes of music aught to be banned in an idealized city were however ridiculous, it struck me that while they were partially correct, Plato and Socrates were both acting like a pair of fucking boomers and at least part of their criticism of the new art stemmed not from rational analysis but simply from resentment of that which was rapidly surpassing those artforms which they themselves preferred in popularity.

>>13936601
am i a retard or did pythagoras like music?

>>13935544
Philistine take. Aristotle Physics is by no means cringe. It is of purely historical interest as of now and contains some real errors but it was capital in forming notions of physics. It's not like alchemy or mesmerism that have been completely thrown out.

>>13935553
They were shotacon. They had harsh punishment on adult homosex. Seems quite based.

>>13935796
This is why I don't recommend starting with the Greeks. ASS shits all over anything good.
Therefore one must start with the antiASSes.

>>13936617
Lies are not opposed to Truth. Fools and simpletons can only be brought to the truth through lies.

>>13936899
Well its mostly legendary accounts but he believed music was a convalescent. But certain harmonies brought about certain moods and temperaments. You can tell that Plato was influenced by this in his Republic.

>>13935535
>two worlds platonic ontology

The other guy is right, none of you do read

Aristotle was more wrong than right.

>>13938530
Aristotle said a lot of different things that continue to be taught even today.

Aristotle is just too complicated for your tiny brain, that seems to be the issue :3

>>13935535
>Whitehead
Retroactively BTFO by Parmenides

>>13938530
Yeah, but see what this dude said >>13935535. If you're counting mistakes of empiricism, is it really being "wrong"? He brings up Aristotle's belief in earthquakes being caused by particularly windy days in caves underground, but prior to the theory of plate tectonics (and a number of technological advancements necessary to even argue in favor of plate tectonics) how can he NOT get it wrong? With the inability to observe certain phenomena, you're unable to make theories based on those phenomena. Humor theory makes perfect sense to someone who doesn't understand what various organs do, let alone the fact that cells even exist.

This is a central point because a lot of Greek philosophy ultimately comes from this mistaken empiricism. Plato assumes matter to be a thing, but we know that in actuality matter actually isn't. A lot of Plato's works also carry assumptions about human psychology and how humans works that is simply incorrect in light of new evidence. But that doesn't mean the actual ideas themselves are incorrect, it just means that whatever lead the individual Greek to this philosophy was probably bogus. Platonic Realism is still an entirely valid philosophical idea even if physics demonstrates that reality doesn't work that way.

>>13938700
>Platonic Realism is still an entirely valid philosophical idea even if physics demonstrates that reality doesn't work that way.
fucking how?

>>13938718
The same way ideas about how humans would live if we all had seven heads are still valid even though we only have one, or how ideas about 9-dimensional spaces are still valid even though we inhabit a 3-dimensional space (not really, but that's a good enough approximation for now): Philosophy's job isn't to autistically describe the world around it.

>>13935153
It's Diogenes and he never said that they 'evolved' from chicken, he gave a definition of human, accordingly during definitory exercises which were common in the Academy (that is, that was not Plato's official definition of what a human is) as a 'featherless biped'. Diogenes, in an anecdote, takes a chicken and rips the feathers and says that it is a human.
You guys don't even bother reading wikipedia articles or googling stuff before posting, that's how much you read

>>13935796
I cannot agree enough, the board is full of 1st year undergrad reading their first philosophy book ever and coming here to spout opinion as if this was "Prof.X's office hour board for retarded students"

>>13938562
doesn't mean he's not more wrong than right
"more wrong" doesn't mean "never right"

Mostly their works in medicine and biology. They were 100% right about Man tho, hence them being the cornerstone of the Humanities.

>>13935592
The problem with suicide is it's desire. Some choose to simply end their physical encasement. The darkest, most depressing aspect of suicide is that many desire an end to existence.

>>13935134
Plato's writing on the ideal diet in the Republic is wrong but pretty hilarious.

I think Republic should be necessary reading for /fit/.

>>13936617
>Plato and Socrates were both acting like a pair of fucking boomers
This is why I go to /lit/

They had a hard time finding a place for the will when discussing consciousness. The modern triad is conventionally "thinking, willing, feeling," but the Greeks tended to think that feeling/willing were related or the same, so that the more right knowledge (thinking) you had, the less your sensations/impulses would mislead and distract you. There are only faint hints of the will in the Axial Age and under the Hellenistic philosophers things only get worse. (They sometimes try to account for randomness or change in their physicalist philosophies, like with the idea of clinamen, but it's only really modern people who argue that clinamen is a source of "freedom" as opposed to indeterminacy.) You only really get full-blown philosophical discussions of the nature of the will, of the primal fact that we seem to experience "willing" things and having freedom, after Christianity. And even the Christians aren't great at it, but at least they do mark out a space for it and kind of puzzle over it sometimes.

>>13935134
They embraced promiscuity and hedonism. A man was expected to fuck boy ass.
Absolutely degenerate.