/lit/ - Literature

>>13894594
Treat your slaves well, and you won’t be harmed, but benefited. Therefore slavery can be moral.

>>13894594
>morality
nice spook you have there

>>13894594
But they did talk about slavery. They just didn't think it was immoral.

>>13894594
Slavery back then isn't what you think of now
People conjure up images of whips, chains, and scorching heat but it was more like unpaid labor for housing and food

>>13894694
Would it not cross their minds even once that some men live as free men and others live as slaves?

>>13894734
In the future, people will be making similar claims about us.
>did they not know that punishment is wrong since people are determined by their genetics and environment?
>did they not care that some people are born with obvious advantages?
etc

>>13894752
What a horrible fucking future.

>>13894734
It did, and they justified it by the free men being naturally superior. Which most of the time, they probably were.

>>13894757
And the ancients would say the same

>>13894780
They were right

>>13894594
Pre-modern people didn’t have the fetish for equality like we do. Also it was pretty obvious that inequality was the norm, in men and women, civilized people and barbarians, freeman and slave. No one had to say it

>>13894594
Slavery can be moral. Just as a man can rule a nation, so can a man rule smaller units of people. A just man would rule well and would in fact do better for his slaves than they would have done on their own. An unjust man would abuse his slaves, using his position over them to create benefit for himself at cost to them. You find slavery immoral because you find it unconscionable to be ruled.

>>13894873
This. Equality is a lot more unnatural to humans.

>slaves back then
>do work
>get food and housing

>slaves now
>do work
>get money
>get food and housing in exchange of money

Really makes you think.

>>13894594
I don't know about the greeks but Seneca addresses it in one of his letters. Slavery, the treatment of slaves, etc.

A couple of years ago I only read classic texts in my free time, and after some months of this routine I was actually thinking slavery was kinda ok and having slaves to do the house chores would be benefitial for me.
PS: I could also fuck the slave girls.

>>13894752
Except no they won't because these things will be true then as well. And this is good.

>>13895400
Plato talks about it in Laws, not a major focus but at some length.

They probably wpuld have considered it odd and even immoral that we choose to just give the dregs of society money for nothing at great expense instead of putting them to work.

A fish in water doesn't think of the fact they're in water much just as we don't typically think about being in air.

We would never let someone voluntarily become a slave today, no matter what the terms of the contract are. You can't sell your body for labor. But we allow you to rent your body for labor. And it took us a while to enforce basic things like a minimum renting fee to live on.

When we see how they little questioned slavery, if it comes to pass that the employer and employee relationship ceases to be necessary in the future, won't they look back at us similarly?

>>13895430
>They probably wpuld have considered it odd and even immoral that we choose to just give the dregs of society money for nothing at great expense instead of putting them to work.
I mean it has to be one of the stupidest policies ever created

>>13894594
Slaves in Athens had it better than many people of the Western world have it today. Slaves in Sparta on the other hand…

>>13894594
>Any ancient texts that discuss the morality of slavery or at least question it?

Aristotle does mention such views in his Politics (1253b):
>For some thinkers hold the function of the master to be a definite science, and moreover think that household management, mastership, statesmanship and monarchy are the same thing, as we said at the beginning of the treatise; others however maintain that for one man to be another man's master is contrary to nature, because it is only convention that makes the one a slave and the other a freeman and there is no difference between them by nature, and that therefore it is unjust, for it is based on force.

Since he doesn't name any names in this passage, it's hard to say where he got it from and he himself mostly just dismisses the idea without developing it further.

Was banning slavery really a good thing? Imagine not having to work because you have a slave that does it all for you so you have time for your hobbies.

>>13895458
Imagine having to work all day because you are a slave to a master that does nothing but follow his hobbies all day.

>>13895436
The problem is there's less and less work to do as machines advance.

>>13894594
Didn't Plato say that slavery was okay in Republic?

>>13895465
>b-but some people might be adversely affected!
Cuck

>>13895477
So if you ended up as the slave you wouldn't mind? Or in your fantasy are you magically immune from being on the other end of it. I don't really have anything against slavery but your reason for wanting it is self-centered and dumb.

Slaves were just war prisoners or people, who violated the law, so practically the public law didn´t apply to them, because they weren´t seen as an integral part of society back then. It is all very reasonable.

>>13894594
I have nothing on morality in particular, but the info that I've come across seems conflicting.
>There was an "extraordinary amount of license granted to slaves and resident aliens at Athens". Pseudo-Xenophon argues that the purpose of this was to gain increased wealth from both parties, as Athens depended on wealth to stay on top through her navy. "It is for this reason then that we have established an equality between our slaves and free men; and again between our resident aliens and full citizens, because the city stands in need of her resident aliens to meet the requirements [...] of her navy."
[Pseudo-Xenophon's "Polity of the Athenians/Lacedaemonians"]
And yet...
>After the fortification of Deceleia by the Lacedaemonians & their confederates, "above twenty thousand of [Athens'] slaves fled over to [the Lacedaemonians]"
[Thucydides]
>"Yes! Critias, I am, and ever have been, a foe of those who think that a democracy cannot reach perfection until slaves and those who, from poverty, would sell the city for a drachma, can get their drachma a day."
[Xenophon's Hellenica]
Some evidence of the "democratic spiral" at work.

>>13895486
Why would you want criminals or foreigners who probably hate your people to be your slaves? No matter how well you oppress them seems like a recipe for something bad to happen.

Slavery never ended, it was perfected.

>>13894594
>They accepted life as some people are slaves and some are not
some people are born to be slaves and some not
this is a fact of life

>>13895483
I mean, I'm a different person than the one you initially replied to. I was born to a life of relative privilege. If slavery was suddenly legalized or whatever, odds point to me owning them. Sorry to reak it to you, but poor people aren't people.

>>13895491
To fuck with them!

>>13895491
>who probably hate your people
Yeah right, a normal slave sure wouldn´t

>>13894734
Neither Latin nor Greek in the classical period had a word that precisely corresponds to the English term slave. you could be become a "slave" through your own action such as committing a crime or failing to pay your debts. they also routinely used slavery as a metaphor for lack of self-control. what we moderns mean by "slavery" of capturing innocent people arbitrarily, the Stoics did condemn that by insisting that no man was a slave by nature.

>>13894594
You're forgetting that philosophers don't exist in a vacuum, or look at the world from up high like Zeus. They were hesitant to question such things because it was a practice they most likely actively took part in, and a practice on which society is founded upon.

>>13895562
I hope the changes of society with the passage of time do not one day force you to regret your complacency.

>>13894594
Morality for the Ancient Greeks was not the same thing as morality for modern people. Morality for the Ancient Greeks was about how to live your life well.
Unfortunately, the "how to live well thing" is now taught to most people not by the brightest of society, but by celebrities and journalists, who usually are not well prepared to do so.

>>13894594
Aristotle was right about the natural slave. Some people are be their very nature slavish. They only participate in reason insofar as they can recognize it others; indeed this is the only distinguishing factor that sets them above the animals. Left to their own devices and 'freedom' they will surely destroy themselves through impulse and over indulgence in carnal pleasures, and ironically become an even greater slave to their base desires. The relationship of master-slave/ruler-ruled is therefore both in the interest of the slave and master, provided the master is one who is governed by reason.

>>13894594
Slavery in antiquity essentially is equal to nowadays penal labour, rather than slavery in the US

slavery was a war time practice for the hellens, it's completely different than the practice of slavery in Semitic or christian societies

>>13895754
I agree, there are people slavish by nature. These are the people who are inferior to the superior, or the followers, not the leaders. Now, what i hold to be true is that, most of the time, the difference between the slave and the master or the follower and the leader is that the leader or master can say he is better, puts himself in that position by simply saying that he is. Thats all there is to it.

>>13895356
hey, hey, hey, calm down buddy, now one in ten slaves can get promoted and buy more food and a bigger house if he kisses the right asses

>>13895562
i really really really wish to be the one that will pull the trigger when you're going to be lined on the wall

>>13895952
you won't do shit, faggot

>>13895746
Yeah, I don't think we can even call it morality.

>>13894594
will and freedom are one and the same, its not that you are a slave and therefore you have no will, but rather, on account of having an impaired will you were bound to end up as one. "the will of a child is not yet developed, and the one of women is imperfect" goes to show why only polites were allowed political discourse.

>>13894692
Frankly, neither do I. Slaves get shit done.

>>13894594
>ancient Greek philosophy was all about the issues of morality
I don't see that as the main driving force behind the fleshing out of the pantheon and the ensuing stories and philosophies.

>>13897595
"Greek Philosophy" came way after the development of the Hellenic pantheon.

>>13894594
>Greek philosophy was all about the issue of morality
Except it wasn't before Socrates, and even after Socrates it pretty much explored any other possible theme, setting almost all the foundational questions inquired by science today.
Moreover, the problem of slavery was discussed: Plato's third class in the republic is close to the slave class of Sparta (although it's not directly depicted as "enslaved"), and Aristotle straightaway justifies it. Epicurus admitted women and slaves in his school, and Epictetus, having been a slave himself, criticized slavery.
Literally google stuff and read books

>>13895433
>would never let someone voluntarily become a slave
>this isn't just another kind of slavery

I wish I could just be a slave in ancient Greece

>>13894752
No because evolutionary psychology is trash and just because you have an advantage or disadvantage does not justify doing something immoral.

>>13895465
>ban slavery because I'm scared I might become one!
>ban guns because I'm scared I might get shot!
>don't make war, they might kill us! let's just submit!
>ban everything! I want mommy state to protect me!

Cuck.

>nobody realized yet that being a slave depends on you entirely and therefore if you submit to being one you deserve to be a slave, which is justice

>>13894594
Melian dialogue.

>>13897246
see ya in a couple years

>>13898335
>see ya in a couple years

>>13898556
dw, furries and trannies are next in the line after you

>>13898335
>commie revolution is just around the corner guys

>>13895562
>poor people aren't people.
Absolutely correct.

>>13898335
Oh, hero of the proletariat!

>>13898727
maybe not a commie revolution but for sure large scale civil unrest and power vacuum
that's enough from my pov

>>13894594
You can't project the worldview of a 21st century Westerner onto a 2000 year old civilization that existed before the moral revolution that the Western worldview is even based on. Equality is a Christian ideal.

>>13898973
>Equality is a Christian ideal.
That must be done away with.

>>13894594
Questioning slavery then would be akin to asking why should you have a job at all today.
>>13895495
Underrated post.

They talked about it plenty in terms of regulation or how it should eb implemented. and that's because like us, they recognized that slavery is not intrinsically evil. Slavery is the deprivation of freedom and this is what imprisonment is. It's justified slavery and we still practice it.

>>13894594
Slavery was and is ubiquitous, an integral part of human history. This whole ending slavery thing is a late, European phenomenon. Seeing what has happened since, I do not think that the experiment was a success...

"The slaves shall serve."

>>13895490
Love how the most relevant reply to OP’s question goes unnoticed.Thank you for your effort anon

>>13895754
This. Even if freed, some groups will still require more supervision and hand outs, etc., simply because they are intrinsically incapable of functioning well in a society that is designed by and for the people who had, quite naturally, been their masters.

>>13895356
damn...

>>13895562

>>13895754
One thing people forget today is just how retarded people at the advent of agricultural society were. Nutrition was poor unless you were rich and there were entire lineages of slaves. This led to the majority of slaves to be really, really dumb, making it real easy to regard them as lesser.

>>13898973
You could go as far as saying that the Greek and Christian attitudes towards work (and therefore slavery) are completely the opposite. Slavery was so entrenched in antiquity that the Greeks saw work as only something that slaves did, so they disdained work. Whereas the Christian ideal of equality means that everyone must work equally. This is why the bread and circuses of the West is the duty to work. In the West, everyone works; in Greece and Rome, only slaves worked.

I can't believe 21st century humans claim to care about social justice when all their clothes are made in a sweatshop.

>>13899236
>not reading the communist manifesto in your macbook pro, with your che t-shirt, in starbucks
Not gonna make it

>>13894752
but we do discuss these ideas

>>13895356
>>slaves back then
>>do quality work 35 hours a week
>>get food and housing
>>live in a beautiful society
>>have respectful masters
>able to still have a family

>>slaves now
>>do shitwork 80 hours a week
>>get ziocoins
>>get cuckshed and poisoned food and water in exchange for ziocoins
>>live in the ugliest society ever
>>your masters are as spiritually impoverished as you are and spend their ziocoins on things that make it even more impoverished
FTFY

>>13899287
>feudal world
>be peasant
>have beautiful traditional white family
>live in close homogeneous community
>enjoy nature
>work the soil
>give a part of your harvest to your feudal lord so he and soldiers can be fed to protect you against ruffians and bandits

>be modern day citizen
>have broken homosexual sjw brainwashed niggerloving family
>live in a low-trust multiracial nightmare
>enjoy car exhaust fumes ugly concrete cages
>do meaningless easily replaceable work
>give half your paycheck to your government so shitskins can buy their iphones, mug you and rape your family while grabbing their crotch, smacking their lips and moonwalking

Haha, damn those medieval illiterate retards.

>>13897614
According to academia.

>>13894594
There's an ancient Greek play that has an exchange that goes something like
>i will create a free society, where all men are equal
>but who will till the fields?
>the slaves, of course

>>13899437
>slaves
>men

>>13898179
Morality is derived from evolution. For example, obedience to parents as a moral is evolutionary. Your parents would tell you not to go out of the cave after dark as a child because they do not want you to get eaten by a lion so that their genes get passed on and they can live on in there children. In that situation, if you obey your parents and do not go outside after dark, you dont get eaten by a lion, but if you dont, then you get eaten or killed. It is just the same with slavery. The natural slave does not know what to do with his will because he has none and is slave to his desires, and so he can either listen to and obey a master who will direct him and give him a purpose, or he will not, and might as well not have a life.

>>13898179
Why is evolutionary psychology trash? It's just the acknowledgement that biology is changing across time and psychology is a biological derivative.

Yes, this is a weird thing that has been noted. There really aren't any discussions of slavery along those lines like you would think. Aristotle comes almost close to logically implying that no non-infirm man can or should have an overlord, but I forget where, and he doesn't come right out and say it. Even former slaves turned philosophers didn't really question slavery on an institutional level. It's genuinely weird.

https://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Slavery-Modern-Ideology-Finley/dp/1558761713

>>13895356
Somebody’s gonna get laid in college

>>13894734
And that is wrong because...?

They never questioned pedophilia, it seemed.

>>13894734
The Latin word for “slave” was “servus, servis, servem, etc.) and it still exists today. If you work in a “service industry” you are literally doing the work of slaves. In Greek and Roman times, slaves were basically anyone who did the mediocre wagecucking jobs that are taken for granted today.
It’s also worth noting that the economy didn’t exist as the kind of abstract monetary system we take for granted today. It was an economy of social relations, where your individual position within a social hierarchy was central. Without money, slavery can’t be counted away through abstraction (what do you mean slaves? The sweatshop workers who made my shoes were payed a while fifty cents for their days labour), so it’s more glaringly obvious but also less morally detestable.

>>13899321
>feudal world
>inbred bastard son tries to usurp inbred bastard father and seize thrown
>marches army through your town
>a couple of his knights decide to gang rape your wife and daughter and force you to watch
>a couple years later plague kills half your town and all your family
>only bath in the summertime because the river is too cold in winter
But at least I don’t have to be around Sardinians

>>13900033
>marches army through your town
As if it doesn't happen in modern world.

>>13899866
questioning a concept that doesn't even exist would be kinda hard

>>13899139
I'm insulted that you think I'm not being serious.

>>13898179
You presuppose that morality is truly universal because you don't understand that it is a product of our non-universal natures.

>>13895433
>A fish in water doesn't think of the fact they're in water much just as we don't typically think about being in air.
Bro greek philosophers were some of the most thoughtful people in all of human history, you really think it just slipped under the radar for them?

>>13894594
Did anyone find it odd that Jesus gave slavery his tacit approbation, not just in any old part in the Bible, but during the freaking Sermon on the Mount?

>>13899669
Evolutionary psychology as a concept is real, but the implications are untestable. It seems likely that our brains evolved, but saying that this means women have to stay at home or that blacks are inferior? very questionable.

>>13900724
>It seems likely that our brains evolved
Not really, what probably happened is that every other part of our body, every other cell, was influenced in some way by evolution except for the brain, which is exactly the same in all people. That's much more likely.

>>13900696
>OH BUT THAT WAS BECAUSE THOSE TIMES WERE DIFFERENT!!!

>>13900428
you are larping. this is a big brain board. anyway, the Chinese math genius might have less money than you have.

No mattrer how much money you have, no matter how strong you are, it only takes 2 adult men to kill the strongest man on earth.

>>13900428
oh don't worry, we're all impressed

>>13900724
Of course they're testable. Any normative statement includes an implicit intent about a certain it outcome it seeks to achieve. By comparing the actual outcome to the intended outcome, we can determine the efficacy of a given imperative. Or even better, we could study the objective health impact a moral imperative has upon a population.

Your mistake is presupposing that morals are both universal and individualizable... They can't be because 1) our natures are not universal (morality relies on overlap, not universality) 2) it is a collective strategy, and divergent collectives have competing interests.

>>13894734
You don't hear much mainstream talk today about how wage labor is slavery, the only advantage being that the slaves get to choose who their master is.

>>13900802
Then fucking ship it.
You have men, you have guns, 4chan is not a political forum.

>>13900819
>implying a walmart supplied militia can contest with a government financed military in 2019

Sit Cletus.

>>13894752
They will be shocked that wagie cagies weren't implemented sooner. You are a hopelessly naive optimist if you don't think it's just going to get worse, slavery still exists today both in the form of wage slavery and literal sweatshops in third world countries completely controlled by businesses, etc.

>>13895483
The whole reason the billionaire rentier class is making all the media and half the government attack Trump every day is because he proposed -- not that he did anything, but proposed -- to begin to cut back on modern chattel slavery.

>>13894752
I do think that people in the future will look at abortion as evil and look down on us for allowing it. I think Factory Farming and Credit Cards will be something else that people look back on with horror. But I think most other things will get worse.

>>13902055
When did he propose that? He's always struck me as someone more in favor chattel slavery than virtually everyone else.

>>13899866
They were pederasts not pedophiles.

>>13894594
The Chinese philosopher Mozi / Mo-tzu advocated universal egalatarian love

I'm not sure if he directly addressed slavery but he wanted to remove all existing hierarchies (e.g. king over populace, father over son)

He believed in perfect universal love uncorrupted by power-relationsips

>>13899321
> Assuming society is only good actors
>>13900060
> Assuming society is only bad actors

>>13901446
Yeah imagine a bunch of guerillas versus the US military. Especially in like a jungle or a desert.

>>13894594
>he doesn't know about Platonic communism

>>13899321
I see where you’re coming from, but honestly, low brow castes have always been degenerate and retarded. The modern era just gives us the benefit of observing and complaining about it in a more centralized manner; before you were strictly limited to who you physically knew. The right wing is nothing new, nor is it growing. This also applies to the left wing. Most people are apolitical centrists who really only care about getting through the day so they can relax and enjoy some quality time of whatever they choose to do. You may not like it, but for most people, their simple and retarded lives are satisfying.

>>13900733
>everything was influenced
>but not the brain because that wouldn’t make sense
ok retard

>>13900750
And it only takes a bullet to erase your egalitarian slave-morality retardation.

>>13894594
Their owners had an obligation to clothe, feed and house them and they were free to have a life of their own sort when not working. It's far less cruel than being a low tier worker in 2019 where employers have no incentive to do any of these things and the more one struggles in any of this, the less pay he will take. Slavery is not immoral. Wage slavery is. That's why you're brainwashed like an NPC to think muh slavery bad!

Being "anti-slavery" (being in favour of wage slavery rather than chattel slavery) is just a clever trick to not have to pay for your slave's food and housing and also be able to sell products to them to get even richer.

>>13895562
no just a mass that will routinely rip you or your descendants limb from limb, but i dont think you'll see slavery anytime soon so your doomed to deal with them being seen as you but more nobler

>>13903459
We are now forced to live near lumpen and forced to take it in the ass when in another past era these welfare criminals would have gotten the rope at the drop of a hat. Therefore quality of life in that regard was miles better than now.

Being limited to who you physically know isn't a bad thing when regular people are respectful, not criminals, and know their boundaries, which they had to be unless they wanted to be ran through a sword.

>Most people are apolitical centrists who really only care about getting through the day so they can relax and enjoy some quality time of whatever they choose to do.
Because their will has been completely broken by nihilism, impossibility of starvation and porn.
Even if this society is broken and cucked they get food, porn, social interaction (virtual or real), intellectual stimulation and whatever. And these base vices overshadow the pursue of virtues, of freedom, of honor. Because these are an adquired taste these brainwashed animals didn't have the chance to taste.

>>13903470
when were you diagnosed with autism?

>>13903504
>says this when you could get one of their proletariat comrades to rape-murder their entire family for a piece of bread
lol, poor people are funny.

>>13903504
>me waiting for the proletariat to rise up

>>13903549
>>13903536
im not saying that there gonna have some massive, game changing revolution, simply that occasionally the poor and disenfranchised start to resent you cucks and when they get together they dont shy away from the rope

>>13903596
hey I'm not the guy larping as a rich fag. I'd love to see all these kikes hang too but I'm not fooling myself. It's not gonna happen. Nobody wants to do it. Hell, I don't. It's all just wishful thinking.

the only rational solution would be to create a race of robotic slaves that self maintains. AI will never gain sentience so it just works and makes a lot of sense

>>13895458
Yes, because it limits social lifts. Without social lifts there is no insentive to improve.

>>13903606
i get the sentiment that no ones gonna do it because we are not recognizing that comparatively we are rich fags and it actually happens all the time in other countries and in cases all through out history. the revolutions just dont last long enough or turn corrupt in very little time after gaining any power

>>13903524
Do you live in an urban area? Quality of life isn’t this miserable existence if you can get out into the country. Cities have and always will be centers of disease and decay. As they’ve grown, the relative size of this filth grows, and it appears like it’s spilling out over all of society, but it’s not.

What’s more is that rural life still limits the physical amount of people you can’t meet due to the nature of rural being sparsely populated. Whereby in the urban, technology has metaphorically unschackled a former relativity cap and exponentially increased the direct social capacity of anyone in the vicinity. This is going to cause a larger and much more severe effect than anything rural areas can expect to experience.

This also leads me to you accusations that they’ve been beaten into submission and are fed an iv of degeneracy in order to maintain their will to live. People never needed to be brainwashed, they domesticated themselves. This reality we live in is what humanity has desired. Things like Tradition and other sorts of ideology existed each uniquely throughout time specifically for the goal of achieving comfort. We’ve achieved that comfort, and can now disregard the once necessary structures as no longer being inherently necessary. You can convince people to live a healthy life, but you won’t ever be able to get them to engage in behavior very far outside of that without that comfort being jeopardized.

Barring a massive economic crash, that will never happen. Ironically though, both the far left and far right need one in order to achieve the their own goals. Right now, we’re in the middle, while the left negotiating with itself just how far it wants to go. The right has already done this in lieu of the 2016 election, whereby the moderates succeed in control. The let will probably not see the same outcome, as the more radical left gains power over the moderate. From that point on, it depends upon: how long a white majority lasts, economic gains in relation to prior generations, and environmental satisfaction.

Is this a deliberate, or simply a natural cause of human evolution along a desire for comfort? I’m not so sure anymore, even though I’m solidly right wing. You mention nihilism. What about it? There is no inherent meaning to reality. How do you justify anti-nihilism without invoking this satanic force you wish to defeat? This could all quite possibly disappear in an instant, and it’s going to disappear, anyway. You admit god is dead, but you continue to fail to provide a solution like the rest of the right.

>>13898179
Why do you kill bacteria?
One bacteria, by your logic, is worth one human life.
REREDRUM

>>13894594
That's because slavery is based and redpilled

"The slaves shall serve" motherfuckers

>>13903596
>larps as poor
>is on 4chan
Cool, now go to rhodesia and see what poverty looks like.
>the poor and disenfranchised start to resent you cucks and when they get together they dont shy away from the rope
They are resenting the migrants who take their jobs, their social wealth and most of their public resources while not having contributed anything and making the situation worse for natives.

>>13903736
>Do you live in an urban area? Quality of life isn’t this miserable existence if you can get out into the country.
I'm aware of this and planning to move to the countryside.
>This also leads me to you accusations that they’ve been beaten into submission and are fed an iv of degeneracy in order to maintain their will to live. People never needed to be brainwashed, they domesticated themselves. This reality we live in is what humanity has desired.
Wrong. How can you say this despite the obvious brainwashing influence people go through. How can you say that people chose this out of free will when the eternal jew has turned the population into braindead self-hating brown-worshipping morons. This is not what humanity has desired, is what a group of people with enough money to do so has decided to, turning us in that direction using misdirection, half-truth, and many LIES.
>Things like Tradition and other sorts of ideology existed each uniquely throughout time specifically for the goal of achieving comfort. We’ve achieved that comfort, and can now disregard the once necessary structures as no longer being inherently necessary.
And now that we are starting to see how disregarding tradition and other master virtues our quality of life and will decreases, as decadence and stagnation grows. What confort? If we are acknowledging you can't even lead a decent life in the city. And you know what I mean by decent, one in which you choose your destiny, one in which your life is in your hands and you are not mere depressed cattle falling into the trap of degenerate surrogate activities.
>Barring a massive economic crash, that will never happen.
So you think current society and politics will be able to hold up when white people become a minority or dissapear all together? Well indeed you must be religious, as this never happened anywhere and the less white people the more of a shithole, at least for the brown races.
>From that point on, it depends upon: how long a white majority lasts, economic gains in relation to prior generations, and environmental satisfaction.
>How long a white majority lasts
Going with current white natality and mindset, very little.
>economic gains in relation to prior generations
We'll never reach boomer-tier economic gains at least without another world war or something serious. In my country you can't even get a job washing toilets, unskilled labor is reserved for migrants and skilled labor is saturated full of people with college degrees or similar. While welfare migrants enjoy flaunting their shiny iPhones and make fun of your own country for being so cucked (I heard it first hand).
>environmental satisfaction.
Who wouldn't be satisfied or being increasingly surrounded by more and more shitskins, being mugged, streets turning into shit and becoming just basically brazil 2.0?
cont.

>>13904083
And who knows how much the countryside option will last, my government is making plans to populate the countryside with migrants using it being sparsely populated as an excuse. This summer our main cities have had the highest crime rates ever, coinciding with the highest migrant count ever.
>You mention nihilism. What about it? There is no inherent meaning to reality. How do you justify anti-nihilism without invoking this satanic force you wish to defeat? This could all quite possibly disappear in an instant, and it’s going to disappear, anyway. You admit god is dead, but you continue to fail to provide a solution like the rest of the right.
We are the gods, we make our destiny, we are able to tell what's strong and noble and what is cucked, femenine and weak. We must strive to better ourselves and build things above us keeping decadence at bay. No matter how much of a godless nihilist you are, even if you don't want to reckognize it, you know the difference between say, NS Germany and a brazilian favela. And no matter how much of a godless nihilist you are, or how much of an egoist, stirnerist, or whatever the fuck you know you'd rather live in NS Germany than in a nigger brazilian favela. It's in our own self-interest to make ourselves greater than we are. It is in our blood and our will. It is why we stopped being cavemen. Was it for comfort? And what is comfort? Is it not more comfortable a virtuous man that fears nothing and loves his country or an obese city sóyboy that sleeps in silk bedding in a temperature controlled enviroment with all the stimulating media in the world? Who is happier deep down? Then what's comfort?

I can't "provide a solution" because you must provide it yourself, and only if you realize what I've said will your thought pass natural selection long term in a world without current cucked constraints in which even a retard is kept alive and can reproduce.

>>13904083
I’m glad you’re aware and think the things I expected. This tells me we’re on the right track for furthering the right politically. Definitely get to the countryside just for the quality of life, being able to be away from people is a gift few experience, but it’s truly glorious when you live in a place with no neighbors, nothing but forest.
>How can you say that people chose this out of free will when the eternal jew has turned the population into braindead self-hating brown-worshipping morons
Well, for starters
>pic related
But I don’t believe in free will. An analysis of free will begins with simple objects being manipulated in simple ways. When a reasonable degree of orderliness appears the arrangements can be made more complex. There is no possibility of receiving any result of any action that cannot be theoretically computed by the proper mathematical “formula”. Rolling a dice (and which side that dice lands on) may be predicted with 100% accuracy given you knew all of the forces acting on it when rolled. Within this line of reasoning we can safely say that what we do not understand we wrongfully attribute to autonomous man.

Every choice, you’re lifestyle; it’s all been predetermined by the past. Disagree all you want, but you can never provide any sort of definitive proof the what you are doing now has some supernatural autonomy. The idea of a non-determined universe keeps people lulled by the muse of possibility; if they only possessed some deeply moving will they can thereby make change of their life. Determinism eliminates procrastination as a conscious process and instead flips it on its proverbial head so that procrastination is a reflexive action of prior forces. People believe they change if they REALLY want to, when instead they should believe that change only occurs when the realization of a future built on the past is the only real possibility.

ronically determinism is the most correct religion that hasn’t been realized yet. All other religions presuppose two ideals:
>man is free and must not be controlled
>man is free and must be controlled
Determinism separates from the latter in that
>man is controlled and must be guided
Here we have arise a new theory of life which in itself brings about a more true and pure interpretation of man, life, and existence in general. Many will argue that “if man isn’t free, than he will either become insane and act in psychosis, or he will become depressed perform the act of suicide.” In reality, man is already stuck between those two ideals. Determinism sets man truly free in that he does not hear the burden of responsibility for that which is outside of his immediate understanding. Instead, man is allowed to contingency of being free within parameters that if noticed, he is able to change with his primordial and existential desire for completeness.

1/?

>>13904083
>If we are acknowledging you can't even lead a decent life in the city
Read “The Fall of Public Man”, by Richard Sennett. Like I stated before, cities have always been a place where your freedom goes to die. Cities are bad for you and should remain bad for you. I’d rather not have this scenario reversed.
>And you know what I mean by decent, one in which you choose your destiny, one in which your life is in your hands and you are not mere depressed cattle falling into the trap of degenerate surrogate activities
Please, point to anywhere in the last 5,000 years of civilization where man had any sort of luxury of choice in lifestyle in comparison to the vast possibilities today. You’re painting a rosy picture of the that, for the most part, never existed. Also, you never had a choice.
>So you think current society and politics will be able to hold up when white people become a minority or dissapear all together?
Of course not. Whites are the only thing keeping our world afloat; I’m 100% white; 50% German, 50% Finn, third generation American.
>In my country you can't even get a job washing toilets
This is unfortunate. In Minnesota (and most of America) we have a massive shortage of skilled tradesmen. Life’s good if you want to work hard for it over here still. Plumbers and electricians make more than plant supervisiors out in California cause they are in such high demand.
>Who wouldn't be satisfied or being increasingly surrounded by more and more shitskins, being mugged, streets turning into shit and becoming just basically brazil
I’m not, and I explain this to other people because I’d prefer to live with my own and not a bunch of niggers and faggots.
>We are the gods, we make our destiny, we are able to tell what's strong and noble and what is cucked, femenine and weak.
And? If whites become extinct, then what? I’m completely serious in that I need an answer to why should I care if whites go extinct or not. Personally, I hope whites are faced with this new evolutionary pressure for existence. There is no good reason why you should be concerned with the survival of your culture, but if your culture has not convinced you that there is, so much the worse for you culture. Whatever survives out of this will be much like how the jews operate: it’ll be more fiercely tribal, as those who refuse to acknowledge that necessity of having kids and keeping your ethnicity alive are removed, we are left with more hardline supporters.
>you know you'd rather live in NS Germany than in a nigger brazilian favela
I already do live in an ethnostate. It’s called the MidWest, and right now it’s the last and greatest form of white civilization. Life is cozy beyond belief here. Do I want this change? No. Will it? Probably.
2/?

>>13904106
>Is it not more comfortable a virtuous man that fears nothing and loves his country or an obese city sóyboy that sleeps in silk bedding in a temperature controlled enviroment with all the stimulating media in the world? Who is happier deep down? Then what's comfort?
As long as people are sufficiently preoccupied with being able to chase whatever they’ve been currently fed to keep them placated and intoxicated in world without meaning, then that’s what matters.
>and only if you realize what I've said will your thought pass natural selection long term in a world without current cucked constraints in which even a retard is kept alive and can reproduce
Retards have always been alive and have always been able to reproduce. If that were not so, they wouldn’t exist. You’re simply able to be completely neurotic about certain aspects of society due to the visibility technology provides of it.
>I can't "provide a solution" because you must provide it yourself
I’m already furthering the fourth political theory, which will assuredly be determinism and behavioralism. The fact that we can interpret and predict chaos (to a certain degree) nulls the point of belief that mathematics can’t reduce the universe into something calculable. Humanity is reaching a new point in self awareness, and if self-conscious is wished to be furthered, this will be the logical and next step in political development.

>>13903736
>There is no inherent meaning to reality
wrong

>>13904937
If hard determinism is true, does responsibility exist? Is the entire universe just a big movie playing out frame by frame? if so, then how can any concept of "should" or "ought" exist meaningfully?

>>13905547
>wrong
nope.
>does responsibility exist?
It does to the degree that the idea of “responsibility” is a social construct used to encourage a certain set of behavior which is conducive towards a groups survival.

>>13905623
>encourage a certain set of behavior
But everything is determined. Nothing has been encouraged or discouraged. Everything that happens was going to happen. In a certain sense it has already happened. There is no "encouragement", there is simply a series of events happening a certain order.

>>13900785
Your mistake is that you're referring to moral psychology which is falsifiable, while the discussion at hand was on evolutionary psychology. Category error, Anon. EvoPsych is still unfalsifiable garbage.

>>13894594
we're all slaves in a society, anon

>>13905645
Everything is determined because it is priorally dictated by the actions preceding; the past is the future, so to speak. Thereby it is better to ditch a notion of present autonomy and self-control in favor of a controlled and manipulated object. This is dehumanizing, but necessary in order to properly interpret human behavior without error and to a mirror precise degree.

What else is that you’ve are hung up on the metaphysical distinction between human the concepts of determinism and encouragement. Yes, everything is predetermined. What the encouragement is is a form of lucidity which invoked a unique form of behavior that is counter to normal thinking, much like a foreign speaker being able to utilize a foreign language in ways a natural speaker might never have tried. You recognize your actions have undeniable consequences and you adjust. It’s all reflexive upon a prior.

>>13903459
>You may not like it, but for most people, their simple and retarded lives are satisfying.
lol no. they're spiritually bankrupt and have no families. if they do have a family it's usually broken

>>13905712
>spiritually bankrupt
and? NeoTraditionalism is part of the hyperreal. It only refers to others signs in the postmodern marketplace. Spiritualism has been dying since the the advent of the pointed rock. Is it necessary for survival, in a post modern world, to have a family, to have spirit? If anything, you’re holding onto a dead spirit and it’s causing you intense despair.

>>13894594
Not really
They were surrounded by moral and immoral things. Slavery was just another immoral thing that existed in the world. Besides, what's more immoral: making criminals work as indentured servants, in nice homes with food and company? Or tossing them in a stone cell and feeding them gruel?

>>13894594
Master morality

>there are people here who STILL haven't read Hegel

>>13894752
in the future will be back to literal slavery with chains and cages. Niggers, Muslims and chinks dont know other ways. Enjoy the last decades of freedom to be degenerate.

>>13895769
ironically is slavery was the most humane thing greeks could do. Like what would you do with a bunch of men that didn't die during battle? kill them? free them so they can kill you later?

>>13906160
>not reading plato, aristotle and nietzsche exclusively
>reading new age söyboys

>>13906327
>not reading Hume & Kant
>reading someone suffering from a brain tumor

>>13902196
>I do think that people in the future will look at abortion as evil and look down on us for allowing it.
A major point of that Freakonomics book is that legal abortion leads to a decrease in violence because less unwanted, poor children are born which happens to be the ones with the more probability of becoming criminals. So No, I don't think the future generations will see it as evil.

>>13905732
They might not be strictly 'necessary for survival' in a modern society, but they are very likely still optimal conditions for human beings. It is not as if we are evolving at the same rate as our technology. This is especially true of the 'low brow castes', who are less likely to process unvarnished truth and adapt to civilizational novelty in a healthy way.

>>13907386
Too bad it doesn't lead to a decrease in violence against fetuses.

>>13907386
>"They had abortions, but for some reason only the most successful and civilized populations chose to partake in it, and not the overpopulated lower castes."
>"This was one of the many factors that led to the fall of the First Globalist Empire"

>>13907509
Bring people to this world and let them fully mature only to suffer more and bring pain to other random people or mercifully kill them from the start since they were conceived in a totally broken home in which not even their own parents want them. What is worse?

"But better than both is the one who has never been born, who has not seen the evil that is done under the sun."
Ecclesiastes 4:3

>>13907676
Kek. That sounds like an Asimov's Foundation quote. But trying and answering your question I guess given equal conditions the poor abort more. The rich just take contraceptives.
What leads us to the next question: How can we convince the more rich/educated people to having more children since they're probably less inclined to respond to financial incentives and it might have too much backlash against it being imoral.

>>13907713
>:3

Not me, but great passage

>>13894734
The majority of slaves would have been prisoners of war, the alternative for which is execution.

Also the whole institution of slavery precedes any concept of natural rights to freedom. Theres hardly much of a difference between a minimum wage worker and a slave.

>>13907497
This is true, and I don’t disagree except in the method most people go about in attempting to turn the tables towards a more “spiritually” healthy lifestyle. Really, it’s going to come down to the language employed. Spirit, spiritual, spirituality; these terms are outdated, antiquated, and come with a connotation of something that is out of favor. It’s the same with adopting Nazi symbols and themes; it’s stupid and the brand has been completely tanked prior to this time. This why the right should focus on branding and how they can make their message as palatable as possible within a degenerate population. It’s possible, but people gotta getting caught up in this rosy picture of the past and ditch this farce of a resurrected ideology named “Tradition”.

Your learning we have said, is derived from the Greeks. But what sort of people were they? I mean to go in for no abuse. I shall neither repeat nor imitate what others have said. I am content simply to remark that that nation was always precipitate mentally, and professorial by habit—two characteristics inimical to wisdom and truth. What could be more childlike than a philosophy prompt to chatter and argue and incapable of begetting works, a philosophy inept in dispute and empty of results.

>>13894594
Somebody hasn't read his Aristotle

>>13907954
Notions/language of 'spirit' still appear quite popular among normies form what I've observed. Superstition appears alive and well to me. I think your pic suggests the proper strategy, which is not to pursue some ideal monolithic brand, but for the various groups to put aside their (even fundamental) differences aside to ally against the critical threat. Call truce and be pragmatic about things. Just like the divergent groups of anti-whites -- many of them highly antipathic towards eachother -- that nonetheless work together to undermine and usurp white civilization. I disagree with your 'optics cuckery' approach... We have to excuse or ignore our unsavoury elements just like our enemies do. Our enemies will make sure we are associated with certain things whether we actually are or not, so the winning strategy is to reframe and rationalize, not to join them in condemnation. Our larpers dindu nuffin, they are just understandbly indignant because they're being oppressed and replaced.

>>13908429
>Notions/language of 'spirit' still appear quite popular among normies form what I've observed.
This is true
>I disagree with your 'optics cuckery' approach
I wouldn’t necessarily consider this optics, that’d be more associated with behavior temperament which I hard disagree with. It’s more so, in quite a German sense, what is most efficient. I’m a big fan of optimization and acceleration (everyone is), but the right can do better. I love fashwave, the retro aesthetics, and so on; but it’s nit fresh enough to break through contemporary normie kvlture. I’d love to see the far right adopt more modern style that seemlessly blends between the lines of ole and new. Don’t go full autism and unabomber everything. Just tell people they could do better, and they should, because you want the best for them and you truly do care. Embrace the cultured thug, but make it the thug everyone respects. My mantra is to follow the right wing ideal of being a god among men, lead by example, and shine bright with Apollo on your side. Blind them with your greatness. It’s not hard.

>>13907713
It's better to prevent by attacking the behaviours/conditions which lead to a prevalence of such scenarios in the first place. It's better to implement eugenic policies that preemptively limit/inhibit who is reproducing and encourage people to treat the possibility of pregnancy as a very serious thing.

To the extent that abortion scenarios are unavoidable and ethically indicated, they need to happen as early in development as possible.

>>13908577
>It's better to prevent by attacking the behaviours/conditions which lead to a prevalence of such scenarios in the first place.
This is not gonna happen, you know. We live in a promiscuous culture, that's a fact. The poor won't stop banging each other codomless. They just say it feels better. And they don't care about the risk of pregnancy. Because as in so many other areas of their lives they just don't give a shit. Even when you give them free contraceptives pills, they just don't take it regularly because they lack the discipline.

>It's better to implement eugenic policies that preemptively limit/inhibit who is reproducing
Another thing that's not gonna happen, at least in the foreseeable future. Eugenic policies are now heavily associated with nazis which as you know (unless you are pol/) is a big no-no.

>To the extent that abortion scenarios are unavoidable and ethically indicated, they need to happen as early in development as possible.
To this one I agree.

>>13905046
Honestly, you’re a retard if you think the Midwestern US is anything like a white ethnostate or NS Germany and it’s obvious to me that you’re the problem by how you deliberately encourage the subversion and subjugation of your own race and culture, defending it with some half witted notion of fiercer tribalism, is the very anthesis of all white civilization by the way.

>>13894694

It wasn't even unpaid labor most of the time, the slaves that built the Parthenon were paid . Ancient slavery was a contract , it was in the masters interest to pay the slave a small dividend , because nobody would be doing any hard labor. In reverse the slave could eventually buy out his freedom. But if you were sent to the salt or marble mines, you were fucked. There was a lot of variation in both treatment and status of slaves.

>>13909993
It’s the best thing in existence right now, and the easiest thing to preserve, and in time, turn into an actual ethnostate. But as I stated earlier: there is no good reason why you should be concerned with the survival of your culture, but if your culture has not convinced you that there is, so much the worse for your culture. I respect the j*ws for being able to hold together their ethnicity, in spite of how many times they’ve been fucked around; it’s probably what’s going to happen to whites, most are going to be selected against through evolution due to their inability to possess a strong desire to preserve their ethnicity.
>it’s obvious to me that you’re the problem
The problem is just that the far right is too aggressive and as uneducated as their liberal counterparts. Know one really knows what they’re doing, or saying.