/lit/ - Literature

Mattingly has the best article on the idea of it being a satire. There's a follow-up article from a few years back that probably decisively refutes Mattingly although I really wish it hadn't, because Mattingly's argument is internally so appealing. The main problem is that the satire thing just doesn't really hold up to the actual reception of the book. There's a good essay by Lord Acton on its reception history. Most commentators, casual or otherwise, have not taken it as satire.

Strauss loved Machiavelli which is at least a good part of why he's so popular these days. But his book on Machiavelli is his weirdest by far. Either way, the basic outlook on Machiavelli from that persuasion seems to be that he was pushing the concept of realpolitik and interest of state to its logical limit, whether or not he was doing this as "satire." If he really was being that subtle, single categorizations would break down anyway, because he could be simultaneously conceptually developing, satirizing, and showing the danger of a position, as well as demonstrating to people who would find the position abhorrent that it nevertheless WILL be carried out simply because it is the logical extreme of certain political realities.

If you want the full scoop and a non-Straussian reading you should read Pocock's The Machiavellian Moment. It's one of the greatest classics of modern intellectual history and an incredible read.

The tl;dr is: fear is a great commodity when you're a politician, and you will have to do some heinous shit in order to stay in power, because people are cruel animals to one another.

>>13826432
I shall.

>>13826419
Just read any of Mansfield work on it.

>>13826419
Sois dismiss it as mere satrire. They refuse to believe that you had to be serious, cruel, and calculating to be a leader of men at that time. You could never be sure that some French guy wasn't going to pay a thousand dudes to go stab everybody in your town, or that your subjects might feel that an uprising would be better than paying more taxes.

The real redpill is that Machiavelli died in poverty, mainly because the Medicis thought he was a nerd.

>>13826419
>Peak Brainlet
You would love this

>>13826432
>>13826419
>The Prince is satire
OOF

>>13827490
phoneposter

>>13827469
Why

>>13826419
Ends justify means. It's better to be feared than to be loved. Honor is for the dead and doesn't keep you alive or help you win.

Cartman in the episode where he teaches the black kids to cheat and hits the kid and asks, "what does the scoreboard say esse?" sums up what you take away from The Prince pretty well.

The best section is an anecdote about an unruly province where they stationed a tyrannical ruler to reign in the crime and people feared and hated him. Then when he had cleaned up the city they fucking murdered him in public so that the king would be both feared by the people because he killed the guy they feared and loved because he killed the guy they hated.

>>13828783
>It's better to be feared than to be loved.
Famous last words of the asshat that got stabbed to death under his palace by his own bodyguards?

>>13828833
I think the real takeaway is what I already stated, that there are times when you need to embrace the shadow and say fuck honor. My school's valedictorian cheated constantly and went to harvard. There are times in life where you should do the smart thing not the moral one.

The most popular theory here in Italy is that The Prince was a "militant" work: Italy was going through a rough moment and needed a "heroic" ruler, a Prince, to create a powerful state and get out of that situation. In his Discourses he claims that the most stable and ideal form of government is the republic: supposedly that was a more "theoretical" work, it wasn't meant to shake up the current political landscape.

>>13828849
Well a co-student of mine on was crushing the semester exams and papers by cheating until he got caught right before achieving his master degree
He got expelled
That's 4 years of studies down the drain 4u and a big fat goodbye to academia
For every successful asshole that "grabbed life by the balls" there are 100 that got their own head in the noose

>>13828890
So don't get got. He'll make it as a salesman for sure and end up making more money than you anyway. He'll probably sell real estate in a sunbelt state and fucking kill it.

>>13828890
how'd he get caught?

>>13828859
Interesting, thanks

How do native Italians view the ducal Medici? Weren't they sell-outs and Spanish bootlickers?

Just read The 48 Laws of Power. It's basically just The Prince, but better and minus the irrelevant Italian city state politics.

>>13830225
Doesn't look so powerful to me

>>13830256
That's what he wants you to think.

>>13830480
hmm

>>13826419
Never heard that it was satire. It was written as a gift to the Borgias.
It speaks of how a royal should rule. He has written another book solely for politicians, but I have never read that one.
The entire good guy/bad guy view is made by those who view the book with a (Christian) moral compass and those people usually misinterpret it. He and the church were enemies of each other after all and the church banned his works.
A king should not care about the opinions about those beneath him, but he also shouldn't be a retard and thus listen when needed, but also reject when needed.
It should keep the public as his friends, but also the aristocracy (because they have money and can overthrow the ruling class).

Read the book, it's less than 200 pages, so you can finish it within a week.

>>13830225
The Prince is infinitely better.
48 laws of power is for usurpers (those who still need power), the Prince is for those who rule (already have power) and want to stay on top.

>>13831990
A gift to the Medici
He was chancellor in the Florence Republic but then the Medici came back and he got exiled
So he wrote this and dedicated it to them to win them over and get back into politics
He liked Cesare Borgia but thought he relied too much on his dad

>>13826419
>The fucking Prince
>satire

>>13826419
For the last fucking time, it isn't satire. It's a /lit/ meme that is brought once a month.

>>13831990
>>Read the book, it's less than 200 pages, so you can finish it within a week.
>reading almost thirty pages a day
huh...

>>13830225
Thanks, anon, I hadn't heard of Robert Greene before, his all books seem interesting; better put them on my long reading list.

>>13830225
Just read the wikipedia on this book, it wastes so much time talking about specific examples.