/lit/ - Literature

>that pic of Kali
Her face is a 10 but her body is a 2.
Conclusion: I wouldn't fuck.

>>13640699
Let's say, in Buddhism, for example, "the proof" is the experience of enlightenment. And if religious text is proof, Hinduism has more of them than Islam. The ressurection is hearsay in the case of almost every Christian since Peter, so it's interesting to consider that proof in and of itself. I just wonder if you've thought of this at all, or know anything about any religion. The only one it could vaguely be asked is Shinto, but that's not what you mean, that's if you've ever heard of it.

A bald assertion isn't an argument. I've already refuted your representation based arguments. Give me something else.

>>13640714
Thats not kali you dumb fuck its kalki

>>13640699
I think the question is really inverted - why would anyone believe in an Abrahamic religion. Christians and Muslims both had early periods where they had armies that said "convert or die." Buddha on the other hand said yeah life is disappointment here's what works for me - try it out

>>13640699
Unlike religions that premise themselves on alleged miracles or on a mafia-like atmosphere that intimidates everyone into following it (nobody leaves the mafia); people generally find eastern/dharmic religions compelling because of how fascinating, brilliant and intuitive their teachings and philosophy are. Also, once you study it a bit many people find that the spiritual teachings and practices taught by them are directly verifiable as something which can be directly experienced and which induces bliss and so on. The art can look silly to a westerner and it seems like some crazy DBZ-spinoff until you read the writings of their main thinkers and study their metaphysics and finds out that a lot of it blows almost all modern philosophy out of the water and often does the same or at the very least rivals the best of Greek thought.

>>13640699
You have to understand that Hinduism is not a religion but a group of distinct but interrelated ethnoreligions.
What happened is that over time various bordering tribes gradually adopted high-caste practises and beliefs to climb in social status in a process called Sanskritization.
It's a lot like the difference between salvation via Christ and reincarnation and liberation.

Hinduism does not seek to convert... it has never really had a proselytizing phase like Buddhism did, so it was not constructed to convince or persuade unbelievers of its validity. At the end of the day it's a mishmash of hundreds of local Indian cultures and beliefs with the Vedas and various major works like the Maha. functioning as the unifying point/"orthodoxy". In a strange way Hindus are a ethno-religious group. "Practicing" Hinduism as a non-native is like "practicing" being Polish as a non-pole.

>Buddhism
You don't need "proof", per se. The Buddha promulgated a doctrine to ease (and eradicate) suffering. This can be inspected through reason and intellect. The "proof" is the happiness (or rather, the easing of suffering) that it gives you.

>Jainism
You're born into a Jain family, which means you get lucrative diamond industry contacts as long as you stay a Jain.

>Hinduism
The problem you're experiencing is that you think Liberalism is somehow the "Default" of humanity. It's not. A different viewpoint lends obvious axiomatic truths.

>Shinto
See Hinduism.

>Sikhism
If you quit you'll be murdered by Muslims anyways.

Christianity, and this by extension Islam, are the only 'real' religions. All the rest, as has been said, are either ethnioreligious folk traditions (Shinto, Hinduism, Jainism, any sort of polytheism, Judaism) or "thought systems" (secular Buddhism, the greek/roman philosophers etc.). Like it or Christianty is the only catholic ie universal religion—humanism, Islam, Bahai, New Age are all branches of it.

>>13640920
I think I agree with you but what distinguishes Christianity as a true religion? Is it a matter of emphasis on belief, the philosophy of that belief? Exactly caring about -why- one should believe? It cannot merely be a matter of not being a religious extension of local culture?

>>13641129

it's the offer of universal salvation. that's what made it unique-salvation not tied to race or culture or place, and salvation with a real promise of an afterlife for all people if you live a moral life. this is the christianheritage that built the west

>>13641143
That's fair, but Buddhism offers something similar. Rather than saving your soul Buddhism offers freeing your soul, a vaguely similar respite from life on Earth. This liberation is also tied to moral behavior, and it is not tied to race or place like local religions.

>>13640699
>Why would anyone believe in an "Eastern"/Dharmic religion?
Because there's no room for Hitler in "Abrahamic" faiths.

>>13641173

that's not eternal happiness and pleasure in heaven though. nirvana is absence of all pleasure. large difference. Also Christianity believes man is made in the image and likeness of God.

>>13641262
I'm well aware, I just don't understand how eternal pleasure specifically is key for distinguishing Christianity as the only "true" "religion", specifically in form. To me it appears as though Christianity and Buddhism actually operate along systems that are far more similar than ethnoreligions. Universality, proselytizing, local Saints, etc.
I'm not concerned with which religion is true- I'm literally a Catholic who attends weekly mass. I'm concerned with creating coherent categories for different forms of religion.

>>13641340
There is no easy definition of religion.
Religions are simply cultural movements that bear family resemblances to each other.

>>13641340

I would agree with you, Christianity and Buddhism are most similar. Islam would be as well if the whole Mecca thing was removed, basically the Hajj outs the entire cult.

I'm really not sure Buddhism is a "religion" since there's no deity worship. however in terms of universality it's the closet to christianity, especially in a form like zen. coincidentally this is why there has been a giant explosion in catholic/zen buddhist dialogue and scholarship in the last 50 years.

>>13640739
greek thought more like gay thought

Hinduism does not attempt to "drag everyone to heaven" like a Christian would because essentially you can drag a horse to water but you can't force it to drink. There is more than one way to achieve Moksha, and devotion or faith is just one way. Devotion can be cultivated through a great teacher or even through exploring the Self without a belief in a god. You can develop it through worship of a divinity, whether it be one of the many polytheistic gods as you'd perceive them to be in Hinduism or through worship of the supreme Godhead, which would align with what Abrahamic religion would call "God". So in this case, there's no reason to "convert" a Christian to Hinduism, because they're already practicing a path to enlightenment through their own way, aka Bhakti. In other words, the horse is already drinking from the lake, so there's no reason to drag him to a different lake. Water is water, who cares if you drink from Lake A instead of Lake B.

>>13640920
true religion in the sense that religion is corruption of the word dharma and similarly christian doctrine is a corruption of the doctrine of ultimate reality, or did you mean something else?

>>13641628
>all Christians, Jew, and Muslims are actually Hindu

B*sed

kek
just realised that OP is essentially saying that eastern religions are more similar to greco roman religions than christianity is

>>13641658
Abrahamics can achieve enlightenment like anyone can. You don't need to be Hindu to achieve enlightenment according to Hinduism is what I'm saying, it doesn't make them "Hindu" though. Really the whole idea that you need to be one specific thing adhering to one specific prophet or school or teacher or title is the cause of confusion, and that's a unique product of Abrahamic orthodoxy bullshit. It's their own problem to solve, not India's.

>>13641340
In practical terms Buddhism is basically Christianity without God.

Islam is Mohammed's personality cult bolted onto Arianism.

Hinduism is what you do if you're Indian.

>>13641686
well they're polytheist as opposed to monotheism sooo yea
Hinduism is what would happen if European paganisms were still around today

>>13640739
>tfw when I want to study Christian literature because of the mythology and philosophy rather than the political aspect
>tfw nobody really cares about that rather than use Christian philosophy as an instrument in politics
:(

>>13640737
Budhism isn't a religion bro.

>>13641143
>>13640920
Most religions are universal and many even go beyond humans in their believe that we are all one. The reason you think Christianity is more "universal" than Hinduism for example, is that the latter is a more accepting religion and when their rulers conquered other states they didn't force them to change religion. Also since Christ died for your sins, people have been cucked into spreading his message whereas other religions are more content just being.

>>13641807
>hinduism is polytheist
There is only one God/creator/universal consciousness but it has many representations.When they pray to Vishnu, Shiva or Ganesha they are simply praying to different aspects of the same God.

>>13641874
I might not have been intended as one but it's sure practiced as one in many sects. Taoism is another example of a philosophical movement turned religious and whilst your particular flavour of western-buddhism might be atheist, most of the buddhist practitioners in the world are religious.

>>13641725
>>13641807
>summerfag

>>13640731
based

>>13640748
There is certainly a huge amount of variety in Hinduism but to say it's not a single religion is retarded, almost all sects of it share common texts and religious terminology etc, there is a reason most scholars of religions consider it to be one.

>>13640699
>Communal and tribal ritualism
Animism, polytheism, Judaism

>Ascetism
Shramana religions, Christianity, Islam

Of course there may be some overlap and features of both categories existing in the practices of both kinds of belief, but this is just an attempt at establishing a basic sense of classification.

It could perhaps be argued that invocational ritualism has always continued to be exhibited in some manner or another in most of the world and throughout history.

>>13640920
Jainism was a Shramana religion like Buddhism that came to existence during a period of defiance of established Brahmanic traditions.

>>13641143
Tbh Christiandom has seen its share of ethnocentric/nationalistic trends as well, such as with the various eastern churches and Latin/Roman centric western Christianity, which still had various regional liturgies until the 16th century, and still retains many local traditions; up to the KJOist groups of modern times.

>>13643278
>Jainism was a Shramana religion like Buddhism that came to existence during a period of defiance of established Brahmanic traditions.
Buddhism and Jainism are more like offshoots of Hinduism instead things that came about independently in defiance of it, the key concepts of Buddhism and Jainism mostly appear first in the earliest Upanishads that predate those religions. These Upanishads themselves were not yet considered the mainstay of orthodoxy like they would later come to be but it was more like Buddhism/Jainism sprang out of one current of Hindu thought in opposition to another current of it.

>>13640699
t. Satan

>>13643329
I never said it sprang up out of nowhere. It wouldn't be unreasonable to assume Shramana religions had a relation to Vedic culture if they stood in defiance of it rather than being just merely different and unrelated faiths.

>>13642686
>there is a reason most scholars of religions consider it to be one

"Scholars regard Hinduism as a fusion or synthesis of various Indian cultures and traditions, with diverse roots and no founder."

"Although Hinduism contains a broad range of philosophies, it is linked by shared concepts, recognisable rituals, cosmology, shared textual resources, and pilgrimage to sacred sites."

"Hinduism includes a diversity of ideas on spirituality and traditions, but has no ecclesiastical order, no unquestionable religious authorities, no governing body, no prophet(s) nor any binding holy book; Hindus can choose to be polytheistic, pantheistic, panentheistic, pandeistic, henotheistic, monotheistic, monistic, agnostic, atheistic or humanist."

"Because of the wide range of traditions and ideas covered by the term Hinduism, arriving at a comprehensive definition is difficult."

So it would look like the main thing Hindu traditions share is their cultural milieu. There's also probably greater variation between the beliefs of different Hindu groups than among Abrahamics religions.

>>13641874
>t. buddhist
Buddhism is just as much of a religion as any other.

>>13642686
>there is a reason most scholars of religions consider it to be one
"Scholars regard Hinduism as a fusion or synthesis of various Indian cultures and traditions, with diverse roots and no founder."

"Although Hinduism contains a broad range of philosophies, it is linked by shared concepts, recognisable rituals, cosmology, shared textual resources, and pilgrimage to sacred sites."

"Hinduism includes a diversity of ideas on spirituality and traditions, but has no ecclesiastical order, no unquestionable religious authorities, no governing body, no prophet(s) nor any binding holy book; Hindus can choose to be polytheistic, pantheistic, panentheistic, pandeistic, henotheistic, monotheistic, monistic, agnostic, atheistic or humanist."

"Because of the wide range of traditions and ideas covered by the term Hinduism, arriving at a comprehensive definition is difficult."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism

So it would look like the main thing Hindu traditions share is their cultural milieu. There's also probably greater variation between the beliefs of different Hindu groups than among Abrahamics religions.

>Eastasia's borders are not as clearly defined as those of the other two superstates, but it is known that they encompass most of modern-day China, Japan, Taiwan, and Korea. Eastasia repeatedly captures and loses Indonesia, New Guinea, and the various Pacific archipelagos. Its political ideology is, according to the novel, "called by a Chinese name usually translated as Death-worship, but perhaps better rendered as 'Obliteration of the Self'".
George Orwell

>The mortality of the human being is a reality and it’s of the greatest significance and importance, and of course men are not as strong and as powerful as the gods. And indeed, as we shall see, well, the tragic view of life, which the Greeks invent and which characterizes their culture, is there right at the beginning in the Iliad and the Odyssey. It says that at the same time as man is a remarkable, marvelous creature capable of all sorts of amazing things, even unto being almost like the gods, he is nonetheless mortal and dies, and he doesn’t have the power that the gods do.

>And what do you do about that? Well, it’s interesting, I think, to compare the Greek way of dealing with this human problem that we all have, the problem of death. How do we deal with the fact that we will die? Well, there’s what I like to call the Eastern solution that you find in many an Eastern religion and philosophy that says that man is, in fact, nothing. He is dust. He is dung depending on which story you listen to. So, of course you’re going to die. Who cares? Why should you care? You were nothing to begin with; you’ll be nothing when you’re finished. Relax. Then there is what I would characterize as the Christian solution. You’re worried about dying? You need not die. If you are a good Christian and you do all the things that you need to do to be a good Christian, you will not die.
Donald Kagan

>>13640730
The Christians claim an unbroken tradition; whether or not you consider the tradition valid--it is unbroken. Muslims not only have the Quran, but there is strong secondary sources as well, so the historocity is very well attested; while many would say the book is not true, we can be certain of how it came about in a physical sense. None of the eastern religions practices have strong support like this. There is no single school of Hinduism or Taoism or Buddhism that has survived unbroken. While there are many texts, the texts often disagree, and there are multiple versions of most of the texts, used by competing groups. Essentially, the eastern practices lack both tradition and history. This is a direct result of Western practices being highly organizes, whereas Eastern practices often avoid organization to some extent. The East treats spirituality like philosophy, whereas the West treats spirituality like law. In fact, this is precisely the Judaic influence. Many people today gravitate towards the East because they have grown wary of organized religion, they are afraid of a spiritual law. However, I must wonder, if the truth does not inspire common practice, how can it be considered the truth? If the pursuit of truth is disorganized, how can any understanding be considered reliable?

>>13640739
>implying most Westerners don't just fall for "le religions of peace" meme

>>13643495
You're post there seems loaded with assumptions and seems as if Asians had no libraries full of texts or a system of doctrinal classification in any of their institutions. I've read somewhere about the uniqueness of the degree of organization that has existed in western culture but I wouldn't be sure if it being entirely exclusive to the West.

>>13643438
lol, cherry-picking quotes that emphasize the diverse sub-traditions within Hinduism doesn't change the fact that most scholars and not to mention many Hindu intellectuals throughout history consider it to be a united religion. Sure it may not align closely with the standards of Abrahamic religions but those are not the standard of what a religion is.

>>13643438
>nor any binding holy book
Bullshit, they all recognize the Vedas as the spiritual authority.

>>13643546
Well those quotes are more evidence of Hinduism's diversity than your absence of examples of the many supposed scholars and "intellectuals" claiming the contrary.

>>13643495
>Just be a Christian goy. We are the only ones with organized power that can tell you what to do.

>>13643608
Diversity is not mutually incompatible with unity, are you really asking me to reply with a wall of quotes from scholars describing Hinduism as a religion? If you want me to I can but this is such a stupid point for you to argue that it beggars belief

>>13643819
A devotional current being Hindu does not preclude it being distinctive from other devotional currents. You may demonstrate examples of quotes affirming the unity of Hinduism.

>>13643899
>A devotional current being Hindu does not preclude it being distinctive from other devotional currents.
The point is that almost all the different currents within Hinduism accept the Vedas and Upanishads as their scriptures which is what unites them into one religion
>You may demonstrate examples of quotes affirming the unity of Hinduism.
Your quotes were all from wikipedia, in the very first sentence of the article it states that Hinduism is a religion, similarly, the encylopedia brittanica article on Hinduism which was collectively written by some of the most mainstream and respected scholars on Hinduism like J.A.B. Van Buitenen etc describes it as a religion:

>Hinduism, major world religion originating on the Indian subcontinent and comprising several and varied systems of philosophy, belief, and ritual.

You seem to be making the mistake of thinking that when people write about the various sects and traditins *within* the overall unity of Hinduism that this can be accepted as proof that Hinduism is not a religion, when this isn't true and nowhere in the one source you cited (wikipedia) does it say Hinduism is not a religion.

>>13641628
Stop pretending Moksha is anything like heaven in Christianity. From a Hindu point of view, at the most the Christian would end up in; if he was a good one, a higher heaven. Which is not Moksha.

No. Neither Brahman, Moksha or Nirvana is anything like the Abrahamic God or heaven.

>>13644281
Several Vaishnava views of moksha are pretty similar to Abrahamic heaven: the liberated soul eternally dwells in Vishnu's heaven and worships him forever, Of course the biggest difference is that one is liberated from rebirth, not saved from damnation.

>>13644095
Fail
Now you may leave final words, or you may bequeath your possessions.

>>13644544
I didn't fail, I pointed out that you were wrong in claiming that it wasn't a religion, and that you never provided any source of scholars saying that it wasn't one to begin with.

>>13644595
>

>>13643640
>If a belief system requires me to act in a way that I wasn't going to do anyway it must be bad

>>13643598
>recognize the Vedas as the spiritual authority
Yeah, this is as good a definition as any.

>>13640699
>their main proof is the resurrection

>tfw no Hellenist services to attend
fuck bros I'm going to have to educate myself into priesthood aren't I

>>13641842
Christianity is a political program first, a philosophy and metaphysical system second.

>>13643495
>The Christians claim an unbroken tradition
Yeah I wonder what happened to the other traditions that broke the chain