/lit/ - Literature

Our Motto: Roman Imperium, Greek Magisterium

>>13616809
>Roman Imperium, Greek Magisterium
sooo, basically the Byzantine Empire?

>>13616843
Christians only have three gods. They need to push those numbers up. Those are rookie numbers.

How will we make the dream of the Neoplatonic Imperium a reality?

>>13616804
neo-platonist is no religious enough, Sol Invictus cult was better.

>>13617187
Neoplatonism is the metaphysical framework for understanding religion, but definitely not a substitute for cultus or religio. The religion should be Greco-Roman paganism, which includes Sol Invictus. Neoplatonism is the metaphysical theory for the intellectual and hieratic elite of the coming Imperium, and will provide the basis for understanding (noesis) and practice (theurgy).

>>13617250
By the way, not shilling that random website on the bottom of the image. I got the image from Google Images.

>>13616804
books for getting into this la?

>>13617520
Have you read Plato’s dialogues yet?

>>13616804
To bad the west is thoroughly christianized and the masses will never accept it, much less understand it

>>13618000
The hoi polloi lack understanding, by nature regardless of “christianization”. You are right that such an Imperium is unlikely to ever come to fruition, but it is a dream worthy holding onto.

>>13617177
i'm too much of a wuss to handle the painted eyes, guess the based neoplatonist imperium isn't for me

>>13616850
Based.

>>13617259
I think it's actually a decent site with lots of references for Greek myth and lit. Although I haven't explored it in depth.

>>13618274
I will admit that the painted sculptures are extremely unsettling

how do i tell my parents that I'm not a Christian because i belive in the greek deities as me being a hellenic polytheist?

>>13618350
Not a good idea. Christcucks are retarded and the demons come out of them at the slightest mention of a threat to their Jewish idols.

>empty and meaningless pagan religions and gods that are le kewl

Repent, homosexuals

Just be Hindu

>>13618390
>homosexuals bad
>women worse
Who could've guessed what the result of this would be?

>>13618402
Not compatible with Westerners, very different spirit.

>>13618335
on occasion the painted eyes are so weird they almost work for me

but not quite. i'll stick with those eyeless ones thanks

>it's another edgy Varglet neopagans cluelessly namedropping Proto-Christian thinkers thread
Hail Odin xD

>>13618402
They would just make a "polytheistic", sentimental or even sub-sentimental mockery of it.

>>13618438
Varg isn’t a Neoplatonist, I’m not at all interested in Varg or what he has to say

>>13618469
who is varg

>>13618500
Some youtuber who used to be in a metal band and was in jail for murder. He also set fire to churches when he was young.

>>13618469
>Varg isn’t a Neoplatonist
Neither are the edgy neopaganlets in this thread

>>13618566
What makes you say that? You sound very emotionally invested in this

>>13618000
Masses don't understand christianity anyway, and platonic and pythagorean metaphysics weren't systematized and elaborated for NPCs.

>>13618014
>The hoi
You, sir, are a pseud and need to learn some Greek, right now.

Algiz Uzdavinys writes some pretty awesome books. I highly recommend "Orpheus and the Roots of Platonism". It's short, about 100 pages, rich with information, and somehow really easy to understand. I'm a seriously undertrained brainlet when it comes to philosophy and metaphysics but somehow Uzdavinys makes it easy to take the information sentence by sentence and understand it.

>>13617520
http://www.universaltheosophy.com/dialogues-of-plato/

Read these dialogues, in this order:

Alcibiades 1, Gorgias, Phaedo, Cratylus, Theaetetus, Sophist, Statesman, Phaedrus, Symposium, Philebus, Timaeus, Parmenides

Read the first 10 as a group, and then the last 2 as another group. The first ten gradually unfold the doctrines of memory, soul, reincarnation, ascent, etc, as well as proper virtue. Timaeus is about everything generated, from the demiurge and the pantheon of gods down to the physical kosmos. The Parmenides is about the higher Reality and Eternal things.

Be warned that some of the books on that website have not been copied from pdf into plain text format. Alcibiades 1 has been copied down, but Gorgias is a PDF of a scanned copy of Thomas Taylor's translation, and he was writing back in the day when they used the letter f for the letter s, so it's a bitch to read for about an hour while your brain figures out what the fuck is going on. it's perfectly readable, it's just annoying.

>>13618791
Yeah, I was going off the top of my head. I don’t actually know Greek

>>13618614
Do not respond to xtians, it's just bait. Be glad for the bump and don't engage. To quote their own jewish zombie idol, "Do not cast pearls before swine."

>>13618806
Currently reading Sophist. They’re doing so much hairsplitting, it’s really tedious to read. I love Plato, but man is this a drag

>>13618907
Read it slowly and take time to understand, reread it later, you've got lifetimes ahead of you. No need to rush it.

>>13618911
I just got to the part where they demonstrated that “that which is not” can be said to be in some sense, and I’ve just realized I do not understand how they got here or managed to demonstrate this. fml bro

>>13618926
It's not easy to understand. You're reading a translation from ancient greek into English (I assume) of fairly dense material, and Plato was also writing in a way to occult the higher meanings. It's not meant to be easy or necessarily clear.

>>13618938
Imho, it's worth to learn Greek if you're really into Plato. The way he re-tells myth but changing them through the use of etymological games is crazy.
Or, at least, search for some paper on those games. It will be worth the read.

>>13618953
I really like the way he associated Hestia with ousia in the Cratylus, I was like damn man that’s deeeep af, if that’s what you by his etymology games

>>13618963
In Cratylus, for example, you have fake etymologies proposed by Socrates (390e-427d). He proposes mock etymologies for anthropos, gods, heroes, etc.

>>13616850
>trying to "improve" perfection of the trinity
cringe and brainlet pilled

>>13618974
Yeah, I love those etymologies, they’re actually really fun to think about. I really enjoyed that dialogue

>>13618953
>search for some paper on those games
know any off the top of your head?

>>13618981
In that aspect, Plato resembles Euripides a lot.
Euripides was the first greek author (let me use that word, even though it's being used in an anachronic manner), to exploit etymology and polysemy for both aesthetic and ethic purposes. There is, in fact, an interesting parallel between Charmides and Euripides' Hippolutos regarding the meaning of the word sōphrosyne.

>>13618999
checked. Tell me more o wise one. Tell me about the nature and meaning of sōphrosyne

okay how the FRICK do I get started learning whatever version of greek based plato spoke and wrote in?

>>13618991

"Plato on the correctness of names", by Kretzmann
"Plato on naming", by Fine
A quick Google search will give you more options.

>>13619022
thank you based platobro

>>13616804
Irrefutably based and 100% Plotinuspilled.
Cumbrains are animals. This much is certain.

>>13619006
The issue with studying old lexicon is believing that a word means x or y (as in particular modern translations for a word). Sōphrosyne is normally translated as prudent, soundness of mind (which is the pretty much literal meaning of the word), self control, etc.
The issue arises when the meaning of the word "fights itself" ttanslation-wise. For example, in Euripides' Hippolutos, Phaedra is considered aphron (that is the opposite of sōphron, the adjective form of the word) not only for being lacking soundness of mind, but for being an example of an unfaithful wife. On the other hand, Hippolutos considers himself as the most sōphron boy, for his devotion of Artemis made him a virgin chaste dude (that is other of the ways one would translate sōphron). But this attributions of sōphrosyne and aphrōsyne prove to be incomplete, for it is declared that, in her decision to commit suicide, Phaedra is being sōphron. It is also implicit that Hippolutos, although he is sōphron in the sense that he is chaste, he is aphron in the sense he rejects completely the cult of Aphroditē. So, we get a play where the whole plot (Aphroditē forcing Phaedra to love his son in law to punish him for being aphron) depends on the parcial "readings" of personal virtues by the characters (sōphrosyne as central, but also aidōs and eukleia).
I'm sorry for the shitty English. If you are interested I would recommend Helen North's book on the topic or Adriaan Rademaker's doctoral thesis (this one is easily available online).

>>13619044
The dude looks like he's from another dimension. Can't wait until I finish Plato's complete works and some Aristotle before I tackle him

>>13619072
Oh, also, this conflict is ever present in Plato dialogs. The whole method is centered around the difficulty to define words by classic cathegories. In this sense, Rademaker's introduction makes a good argument for a new kind of semantic categories based on cognitive linguistics rather than structural linguistics. The rest of the thesis is kind of meh (unless you are really interested in some author in particular), but the intro is a must read, imo.

>>13616850
This is not just wrong but very wrong. Platonism and Neoplatonism uphold a single, omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent God, i.e. "The One". So, rather than pushup, it would need to reduce but this still is erroneous. Your simpleton "muh three gods" overview ignores metaphysical consubstantiality of the Godhead which was possible within original Platonic thought, and arguably was a greater inspiration toward the trinity than anything, which is why the Church held it in such great esteem, so your post really makes no sense and proves your interest in neoplatonism is not sincere and I hope this changes. To further add, Plotinus denied the deity of all the pantheon as they were not 'all perfect'. Plotinus further had a tripartite theory of being that inspired Augustine's various tripartite views. There is not antagonization of neoplatonism with Christianity and it was extremely integral to its completion, its antisexual nature, and insistence of clerical celibacy (long predating the mandate), so as to setup a society of philosopher kings, and it was quite successful in this respect for the longest time. Plotinus won the long-con.

>>13619073
You are on the right path, my friend.

>>13619141
Plotinus is not the only Neoplatonist and your assessment of him is not the only possible assessment. Also that anon was making a joke, stop being such a stuffy fart and read some Iamblichus

>>13619072
thanks for the rec based anon

>>13618000
"christianity is platonism for the masses"

If you want a game where you could play a Neoplatonist Imperium, look for Ck2 Lux Invicta.

>>13616804
Hi Metaphysics, it's me, Sophia. Don't forget who your real master is: your problems come from my problems. Submit to me or perish by irrelevance.

>>13619730
Also we must submit to Themis, all the gods submit to her

>>13616804
Eris here, personification of chaos. My sister Sophia is right. Don't forget that you play on my game board, and that the nature of becoming makes an eternal account of being impossible. There's no hiding from the scientists.

>>13619736
"There's always a bigger Ultimate" - the category of the ultimate.

>>13619730
>>13619736
>>13619737
Where have the squabble led us, and through what does one break free?

>>13619730
gtfo only the demiurge exist

>>13619141
Yeah and The One is not the God of Christianity. The entire Bible shows that YHWH is; if you accept him, no higher than Demiurge or Nous.

platofags, any secondary reading on the republic you'd recommend?

>>13619850
>Moses said to God: Lo, I shall go to the children of Israel, and say to them: The God of your fathers hath sent me to you. If they should say to me: What is his name? What shall I say to them? God said to Moses: I AM WHO AM. He said: Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel: HE WHO IS hath sent me to you.

>>13616804
>still having a hard-on for pagan gods

The god who killed them is himself dead now. Stop LARPing and get involved in your local community, if nothing else to understand what practical form spirituality can take now. The spiritual life is not negation of material life, and spiritual needs are an expression of human biology, so you need to understand all of that.

>>13619865
Cicero's Republic

>>13619988
>the One having a conversation with his prophet
Like I said. Clearly from the point of neoplatonism, YHWH is at the most the Demiurge.

>>13617187
Sol Invictus is the best and purest religion ever created, closest the West came to Hinduism

>>13620007

>>13620007
>>13619141

>>13620118
>the demiurge is ehyeh asher ehyeh
t. i don't know what the demiurge is

>>13620913
>this one line from the entire bible
not an argument

>>13619808
Life provides endless problems which give the death penalty for inattention. Growth is made possible only by the possibility of failure for both knowledge and life. The most durable and indelible is the least worth caring about, but must be considered in relation to what is not.

One breaks free when they embrace failure.

>>13620913
"only the demiurge exists"
-t. Demiurge, God of self-identity
Not a bad guy as long as he isn't alone.
https://vimeo.com/129609470

>>13620007
"Imperium" is getting involved in your community. It's a top to bottom approach, which is the superior standpoint, as opposed to the bottom up approach you seem to be advocating which betrays your absolute shudra mentality. Also my community is full of niggers and mexicans, so no thanks.
>he spiritual life is not negation of material life
I agree and so does Iamblichus
>spiritual needs are an expression of human biology
You have it reversed. Biology is a faint expression of spiritual realities. The latter are prior and superior.

Bump.

I wish Hellenic paganism still existed

>>13616804
What would be the official language of the Imperium? Latin or Greek?

>>13622333
I know that feel. But alas we swapped a lifestyle completely intertwined with the divine and the thousands years of culture stemming from that for going to church once a week.

>>13621590
How can someone who has studied philosophy so rigorously be such a personal and philosophical failure? Two options:

A) You haven't actually studied rigorously and just read a few books over 1-2 years and think you know jack shit

B) You're a degenerate who lacks self-awareness, and no amount of philosophy will fix this because the problem is much deeper than philosophy, a matter of your entire character. Rather, you use philosophy as a way to justify your degeneracy rather than challenging it.

My own speculation is a little bit of A, and a little bit of B.

Christianity is literally Neoplatonic

>>13623192
>Christianity is literally Neoplatonic
Explains a lot about what's wrong with the world, doesn't it? Always start with the Greeks, but if you end with them you aren't doing philosophy, which is a dynamic conversation, merely historical LARP.

>>13623192
You can polish the turd that is Christianity all you want with Neoplatonism but in the end it is still just a turd.

What religion should I be to be neoplatonist?

>>13623192
And that's a good thing.
>>13623367
Double digit post.

>>13623375
Roman Catholicism.

>>13617187
>>13620221
Best books to learn about Sol Invictus?

>>13623192
Except with jewish fairy tales stapled on top for no reason, which do not aid in the understanding of god.

>>13623390
>t. christcuck

Thoughts on Fascist Neoplatonism?

>>13623188
What on earth are you talking about?

>>13623192
So? Neoplatonism is not monolithic. There are many variants and thinkers. Obviously OP is not advocating the Christian versions

>>13623426
The Cult of Sol Invictus by Gaston H. Halsberghe

>>13623401
I’m fine with Catholicism as long as you can set up images and statues to the other deities in the churches and make offerings to them as well. I don’t see why worship of the demigod Jesus should exclude worship of other traditional European deities. I think it could be a good combination to bring together these two streams.

>>13624034
Just be a Hindu Christian

>>13624042
No, too foreign. The Hindu mentality is incompatible with the West

>>13624034
>I don’t see why worship of the demigod Jesus should exclude worship of other traditional European deities
That's a foundational principle of christianity, and without exclusive truth claims about Jesus' divinity, it is not christianity.

>>13624055
You can change Christianity to make it more compatible, but if not then I suppose it isn’t really any good for us any longer

>>13624055
Catholics and Orthodox treat the Saint the same way as Jesus.

>>13624104
No, wtf. I have been a catholic all my life, living in the most catholic city in the world and I can say that that would be heresy.

>>13624104
This. I’ve been to Orthodox churches. They light candles to the saints and the priest walks around the church with a censor spreading incense before all the icons. All you would have to do would be to include images of other deities as well. I don’t see why being a Christian should mean being an atheist or having a blasphemous attitude toward the divine.

>>13624123
Well, I don't exactly know about Catholics, I grew up Orthodox and revered Saint George more than Jesus, nobody criticized me or instructed me to do otherwise.

>>13619141
Slaaaayyyyy king

>>13624132
>I don’t see why being a Christian should mean being an atheist or having a blasphemous attitude toward the divine.
That's just how it's been since Paul. Logically speaking, venerating Jesus and worshiping God is compatible with other religions but capital C Christianity as movement doesn't permit that. That's why I advocate the abandonment of Christianity. It's primarily a political movement anyway. Anyway, I digress. The topic of this thread is Platonic and Pythagorean metaphysics.

Thoughts on a 'race soul'? Humans are grouped in matter by clan, tribe, ethnos, race, etc, wouldn't there by a metaphysical reflection of this? English Germanic paganism had a concept of this, literally a 'race soul' that one returns to upon death. This is also reflected universally in all pagan expressions by ancestor worship. Julian also in his Against the Galileans made the argument against Abrahamistic total monotheism that there are a vast number of Human races/ethnicities, and it'd make no sense for the the One not to refract, as it were, into many disparate god-emanations amongst these Human kinship groups (that are expressed particular to that people's customs)?

>>13624340
I think the “race soul” you are referring to is more of a “clan/family soul”, but obviously that’s related to the idea of race as well. Like the Roman idea of the family (gens) Genius that is embodied in the pater familias, and as you mention all forms of ancestor worship across cultures are related to this. I agree with your point about the One. A totally uniform religion that applied the same laws to all people makes no sense. Even within a particular race, different rules should apply based on your caste. A one size fits all approach doesn’t make sense. At the same time, one can consider the gods of other peoples as being the same as one’s own, but clothed in different forms. This is the attitude Plutarch adopts, and it seems to have been a common one in antiquity. Still, I would prefer Christianity over a foreign polytheism like Hinduism, if I had to choose. Not that I wouldn’t recommend studying a religion like Hinduism, but to adopt it would be a mistake.

bump

>>13616804
ITT: LARP

>>13616804
You might have had your Neoplatonic Imperium if Julian hadn't been such a shit military commander who made a bunch of brainlet-tier tactical decisions that led to him being killed and to the Persians gaining much territory at Roman expense. That you would idolize such a retard speaks volumes. He could have learned a thing or two from the easterners about non-violence. The Persians sent emissaries hoping to peacefully work out issues and he chose to invade anyway, it's sort of cosmic justice that the retarded actions of the Neoplatonic cum warlord indirectly caused Neoplatonism to be stamped out and replaced by Christianity.

>>13625171
*snore*

>>13625171
>Julian hadn't been such a shit military commander
>literally undefeated
His death was accidental and not his fault.

>>13625171
And the crusades lost... the entire muslim world today. Jerusalem, Persia, Spain (for a long time), Egypt, the list goes on. Plenty of places in Europe today as well. And the Catholic church is an open borders lobby even today.

>>13616804
>>13617250
>>13618014
A Neoplatonist senatorial sophist was teaching a class on the virtues of Hellenic paganism

”Before the class begins, you must get on your knees and worship Jupiter Optimus Maximus and accept that the Roman pantheon was the greatest form of religion in the ancient world, even greater than Christ-worship!”

At this moment, a brave, patriotic, Comitatus from Illyria who had fought in a hundred Danubian campaigns and understood the necessity of the Dominate and fully supported all military decision made by the Augustus stood up.

”Who's the greatest being in history, apostate?”

The arrogant sophist smirked quite Satanically and smugly replied “Jupiter, you stupid monotheist”

”Wrong. It’s Christ Pantokrator. If it was Jupiter as you say… then wouldn't Maxentius have won at the Milvian Bridge?”

The sophist was visibly shaken, and dropped his chalk and copy of "Against the Gallileans". He stormed out of the room crying those pagan crocodile tears. The same tears pagans cried when brave Christians chose martyrdom over submission in their struggle against the “Dominus et Deus” Diocletian when they justly sought to convert their infidel oppressors. There is no doubt that at this point our Senator wished he had pulled himself up by his caligae and become a loyal subject of the Christian Emperor and son of the Church, instead of a wimpering homosexual cretin.

The students applauded and became Scholae Palatinae sworn to defend the Empire that day and accepted Christ as their Lord and savior. A dove named “Paraclete” flew into the room and perched atop the Church of the Holy Apostles and shed a tear on the Labarum. The Edict of Thessalonica and the Nicene Creed were read several times, and St. Ambrose miraculously appeared to smash pagan altars. The Thinkery was shuttered and the sophist and his homosexual students were all castrated the next day by orders of Dominus Flavius Justinianus Augustus, who also donated their property to himself. They died.

Allelouia

>>13623211
Wrong.
>>13623192
Even more wrong.

>>13619044
Why do I find this image so distrurbing?

Umm sweetie we already have a Neoplatonic Imperium. Read Dionysus and Maximus the Confessor.

#20190812 Morgenroutine: "Du könntest mal früher aufstehen" - Die Zeit
http://tridejur.uy/t123.php?id=2518061&alta=2019-08-12%2005:08:46

>>13626333
>separated his invasion force
>burned his river-fleet after arriving at Ctesiphon, leaving his army stranded in Persian territory with only 3 weeks supply and cut-off from any baggage train
>failed to defeat the main Persian army before laying seige to their capitol, no point laying siege when their army can just gather reinforcements and attack you mid-seige
>"lol let's just march deeper into their territory despite it being rough hills and desert"
>Persians used scorched-earth tactics which Julian should have anticipated
>"fuck, we are running out of food, men a dieing from the heat, all the while the Persians are harrasing us from a distance, time to retreat back to Roman territory!"
>in one Persian raid on the Greek marching column Julian chases after the retreating Persians without any armor and gets BTFO by a thrown spear and dies
>the army Julian died commanding keeps retreating but is unable to cross the river at Dura and in order to negotiate a way out of Persian territory alive Jovian and the army had to sign a treaty conceding all of Diocletian's gains

The entire campaign was a shitshow from beginning to end, Julian was an awful military commander. It's all the more ironic since he reportedly considered that he was Alexander the great in a past life through transmigration. He had the chance to halt the Christianization of the Roman Empire and establish the basis of some future Neoplatonic world religion, instead he blew his chance and instead waged a bungled invasion. Absolutely embarrassing.

>>13616804
Can someone recommend me any good books explaining the similarities and differences between Neo Platonism and Vedanta? From my cursory observation they appear to be identical.

>>13627351
There are not any good books on that topic as far as I can tell. There is one collection of random essays 'Indian Thought and Neoplatonism' but its kinda old and isnt very high quality IMO and it doesn't focus specifically on Advaita Vedanta. There is however a 272-page study comparing Neoplatonism and Advaita specifically which is very good, probably the best comparative study of them that I've seen, it can be read here at the link below. Coomaraswamy also compares them a lot in his writing on metaphysics. The two systems are not identical and differ in a few areas but they largely agree on many points.

https://dbnl.org/tekst/staa009adva01_01/staa009adva01_01.pdf

>>13627028
>kiddie thinks he understands military theory

>>13628027
Every fag thinks he is an expert on Rome and military history. I can't stand those autistic faggots
>>13627351
Thomas Mcevilley's Shape of Ancient Thought has a section or two on comparing Neoplatonism with Indian philosophy. But, as an anon already pointed out, be aware that Neoplatonism isn't a monolithic thing. There are different Neoplatonist thinkers. Christians in this thread are trying to convince people that "Christianity is literally Neoplatonism", but obviously they mean one specific variety of Neoplatonism, either Augustine or Pseudo-Dionysius or whatever, i.e. Christain Neoplatonists of whom there isn't even one version, but different theories among them. So you may be able to draw some parallels between Neoplatonism and Vedanta in a very stale and generic way, but ask yourself WHICH Neoplatonism am I comparing it to? Plotinus? Whose particular interpretation of Plotinus? What about the Neoplatonism of Proclus? Porphyry? Iamblichus?

>>13628049
Not him.
(Neo)platonism is just a form of moralist government correct? Wouldn't christianity be applicable to any such system?

Is everyone ITT a celibate, right?

>>13628027
>gets himself killed and has to sign a humiliating peace treaty that surrended a bunch of strategic territory
>haha dude you just don't understand, he was actually based!

>>13628384
>(Neo)platonism is just a form of moralist government correct?
Are you joking? Can you at least do a google search before asking these questions.
>>13628426
Why would we be? Neoplatonism doesn't have a concept of "sin". At worst, promiscuity would be "foolish" but we don't get "bad boy points" with a personalistic canaanite deity if we have sex. In any case, in Iamblichean Neoplatonism we are supposed to work together with the gods as co-creators, not try to escape the created world like an eastern Yogi. So reproducing is definitely highly recommended.

>W. Hamilton considers that Aristophanes' speech, which comes next, is one of Plato's most brilliant literary achievements.[22] The speech has become a focus of subsequent scholarly debate, as it has been seen as mere comic relief, and sometimes as satire: the creation myth Aristophanes puts forward to account for sexuality may be read as poking fun at the myths concerning the origins of humanity, numerous in classical Greek mythology.

>Before starting his speech, Aristophanes warns the group that his eulogy to love may be more absurd than funny. His speech is an explanation of why people in love say they feel "whole" when they have found their love partner. He begins by explaining that people must understand human nature before they can interpret the origins of love and how it affects their own times. This is, he says because in primal times people had doubled bodies, with faces and limbs turned away from one another. As spherical creatures who wheeled around like clowns doing cartwheels (190a), these original people were very powerful. There were three sexes: the all male, the all female, and the "androgynous," who was half male, half female. The males were said to have descended from the sun, the females from the earth and the androgynous couples from the moon. These creatures tried to scale the heights of Olympus and planned to set upon the gods (190b-c). Zeus thought about blasting them with thunderbolts but did not want to deprive himself of their devotions and offerings, so he decided to cripple them by chopping them in half, in effect separating the two bodies.

>Ever since that time, people run around saying they are looking for their other half because they are really trying to recover their primal nature. The women who were separated from women run after their own kind, thus creating lesbians. The men split from other men also run after their own kind and love being embraced by other men (191e). Those that come from original androgynous beings are the men and women that engage in heterosexual love. He says some people think homosexuals are shameless, but he thinks they are the bravest, most manly of all, as evidenced by the fact that only they grow up to be politicians (192a), and that many heterosexuals are adulterous and unfaithful (191e). Aristophanes then claims that when two people who were separated from each other find each other, they never again want to be separated (192c). This feeling is like a riddle, and cannot be explained. Aristophanes ends on a cautionary note. He says that men should fear the gods, and not neglect to worship them, lest they wield the ax again and we have to go about hopping on one leg, split apart again (193a). If a man works with the god of Love, they will escape this fate and instead find wholeness.

>>13628455
Just because he made a mistake doesn't negate anything good he did. Uncuck yourself from black and white thinking.

We must reestablish the worship of the gods.

I am really struggling to find information about the Sol Invictus cult, specifically about the actual practice. Halberghe's work is nice for purely historical information about when the specific Sol Invictus cult came to Rome, but doesn't offer much insight into what the practitioners actually did. Anybody got any leads? Google gives me a lot of websites from galileans and other jews and jew worshipers talking about how Christmas totally definitely didn't rip off pagan holidays.

Bump

>>13628714
>why would we be celibate?
He's implying that the debate ITT is so autistic that everyone involved must never have sex.

>>13619141
>"The One"

monism is cringe and bluepilled

>>13628714
>reproducing is definitely highly recommended.
So, celibacy except for begetting children, right?
>>13631201
No, not really.

>>13618274
I want a nose like that.
>t. noselet

>>13618406
It seems that pederastry remains an unchanging aspect of the European civilization, even if it is banned.

>>13632350
>So, celibacy except for begetting children, right
From their fruits you shall know them.
If your lust makes you lose your life, cut it off. If other peoples' lust damages your life or society, cut it off.

>>13624132
>>13624139
Or just figure out which saints match up with which gods. Since some of them were originally local gods that should be easy. Or like how the Romans unified with the Greek pantheon way back when.

>>13632350
>So, celibacy except for begetting children, right?
I'm not familiar with any sexual magic practices among Neoplatonists, but there is no reason they could not assimilate such practices. Neoplatonists aren't moralfags, as I will prove with the following quotes from Plotinus:
>“Bad men rule by the feebleness of the ruled; and this is just; the triumph of weaklings would not be just.”
>“Not even a God would have the right to deal a blow for the unwarlike: the law decrees that to come safe out of battle is for fighting men, not for those that pray. The harvest comes home not for praying but for tilling...we have no right to complain of the ignoble getting the richer harvest if they are the only workers in the fields, or the best.”
>“A gang of lads, morally neglected, and in that respect inferior to the intermediate class, but in good physical training, attack and throw another set, trained neither physically nor morally, and make off with their food and their dainty clothes. What more is called for than a laugh?”

I realize these quotes are not specifically about sexuality, but they demonstrate the overall Neoplatonic attitude. If something works, its because the laws of nature, which are decreed by the gods and are good, allow it to work. So if sex magic can produce higher spiritual states, I don't see why husband and wife should not be able to enjoy themselves with it. Hell, even apart from any spiritual use, Neoplatonists are not against pleasure, they are against excess, so why did the gods create pleasure in the flesh if we weren't supposed to enjoy it somewhat? It's an ungrateful and blasphemous attitude to reject all pleasure, which is a divine gift from the gods. Praise Dionysus

>>13633023

>>13633583
Interesting, but as I said the Neoplatonists are interested in what IS and what WORKS. So if sexual practices could be shown to work they would revise their theories. Definitely celibacy can be beneficial but that doesn't rule out the possibility of alternative methods.

>>13633023
>Not even a God would have the right to deal a blow for the unwarlike: the law decrees that to come safe out of battle is for fighting men, not for those that pray. The harvest comes home not for praying but for tilling...we have no right to complain of the ignoble getting the richer harvest if they are the only workers in the fields, or the best.”


'See no evil' basically?

>>13633023
>A gang of lads, morally neglected, and in that respect inferior to the intermediate class, but in good physical training, attack and throw another set, trained neither physically nor morally, and make off with their food and their dainty clothes. What more is called for than a laugh?”

What is Plotinus solution to this? Man to become a beast also?

>>13633926
"Evil" = weakness, ignorance, that which is unnatural (i.e. against the decree of the gods, against Themis, the natural law that holds sway over the world), ugliness, passion ruling over reason, etc

>>13633942
His solution is that you should be morally and physically strong. See Plato's Republic. Even a gang of thieves has to have a code of honor among themselves (i.e. a form a justice, morality) if they are to work together successfully. So Morality is advantageous, but not when allied to weakness. We need morality and strength.

>>13633952
That doesn't answer the question unfortunately. Is this similiar to the 'see no evil' doctrine? God not having the right to deal a blow for the unwarlike.

>>13634003
What do you mean by "see no evil" doctrine? Sorry, I will try to answer your question if I can, but please explain what you mean

>>13634013
"Not even a God would have the right to deal a blow for the unwarlike"

Jesus advised to 'see no evil', as did many other prophets and wise-men. I'm interpretating Plotinus as saying that if one 'ignores' evil, he will not be apart of it. Am I correct? It relates to nondualism if that pieces it together...

>>13634067
I don't see the connection between ignoring evil and that passage. He is saying God wouldn't help an unwarlike people because that would be an unjust thing to do. It would be unjust because the laws of nature, of which God is the author, favor strength so it would be like God changing his mind about his own natural laws. Choosing to go against those laws of nature, that God himself created, by favoring weak people is an arbitrary way of behaving. Why did God make the world in such a way if he was going to pity weak people? He should have made the world favor weak people from the get-go if that is the case, but he didn't, he made it favor the strong because strength is a good (as is morality). Sorry if I am still misunderstanding your point

>>13634089
I thought he was saying God would not force an unwarlike people to be at war.

>>13634232
No he is saying he wouldn’t deal a blow for them, i.e. wouldn’t help them out in a fight

>>13626343
please can I read more?

>>13634246
Yeah. I wouldn't vouch on that translation of Plotinus myself, and I don't agree with him, but I can understand it as a Gnostic, but not as someone who believes the One is good.

>>13634418
Strength IS good. Morality is a form of strength, it is inner strength, it is a well ordered soul. You need to have both. It seems to be a pretty reasonable view to me. The One is THE Good, it is not good according to some exterior moral standard, it is the Good itself, it is that toward which all things are ultimately striving, where they find their completion and perfection (and to be weak is an imperfection).

>>13634445
Then might makes right?

>>13634498
No, because might is only one element of the whole. But might is a good thing. If you only had might, but had no knowledge and did not have a well ordered soul that would not be good, and ironically would render you far less mighty. As noted above even a gang of thieves need to have justice among themselves in order to be effective. Read the first part of Plato’s Republic, this is exactly the topic they debate about, whether might makes right which is the view put forward by Socrates’ opponent.

>>13634445
Being physically fraile yet morally strong and being killed by a physically strong yet morally weak person is not what a wise, just God would want as it would endanger the teological construction of the human world.

Re-posting from another thread >>13633509:

I don't really care about proposed governments, as I have no political power. What I am interested is the pursuance of the one/the good/God/Brahman.

How do I get started with Neo-Platonism then?
Would it be in conflict with my love of (British/Cymraeg) Celtic Mythology?

>>13634574
But it happens all the time, so clearly God is ok with it since he made the world that way

>>13634580
See
>>13618806

>>13634718
Thank you. Would you recommend any secondary literature?
Perhaps know of any neo-platonic commentary?

>>13634736
http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2005/2005-04-46.html

Return to the One: Plotinus' Guide to God-Realization by Brian Hines is an easy read. But as the review points out, took it with a grain of salt.

bump

By decree of the emperor, I bump this thread

>>13634580
Carabine's 'The Unknown God'
Will get you all Late Ancient thought concerning him.

>>13634418
The One is beyond God.
Nous/Being/Demiurge/Logos is "God" as in—the mind and actuality of the One; the Good is beyond, even 'One' and 'Good' are merely honorifics of the Ineffable.

Remember, no Gnosticism.

>>13637335
Which book is that?

Kind of vaguely related, but I have this theory that once pagan philosophers and "occultists"/theurgists saw that Christianity was going to take over and there was nothing they could do about it they found refuge by "converting" to Judaism, and that's why there is so much Pythagorean/Neoplatonic/quasi-pagan shit in Jewish Kabbalah. Basically crypto-pagans kept pagan antiquity alive through Judaism. That would also explain why genetically Jews are basically identical with Italians with some semitic admixture added in. Any books that explore this theory, whether arguing for or against it?

>>13638991
So Jewz wuz the real Romanz?...shieeeeeeet

>>13638991
>“Jews are the real pagans”
so basically this meme?

>>13637335

Well, then, it's shit!

>>13638991
Interested too

Sorry but I already follow necromantic chaotic order.

>>13639387
Anime will be banned in the future Neoplatonic Imperium. Just an FYI

>>13639974
based. the time has come to form the great catholic-pagan coalition

>>13639974
It is not anime though. Its from a game (non anime game). Your imperium is shit and you should kys. Any neoplatonist knows the power of forms. But you as a brainlet will never transcend the material plane.

>>13638991
bumping for this

>>13617177

Persian Muslim scholars and the Alexandrian fathers

>>13640969
Explain yourself

>>13618806
tfw struggling with Gorgias
fuck bros, I keep trying to see the hidden deeper meanings and it's distracting me from what's going on

>>13641135
Have you read Statesman? I’m currently reading it and it’s the most tedious hairsplitting snoozefest I have ever had to trudge through (except for the part about the golden age and the time-reversal thing). Why is this dialogue considered important, exactly? I genuinely would like to understand.

>>13641033

> muh Neoplatonism in Alexandria
>http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/hmp/8.htm

> muh based brothers of purity in Baghdad learnin from da greeks n sheit
>http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/hmp/18.htm

Hate the muzzies all you want /pol/, they had some good shit

>>13641167
I’ve actually been wanting to read about the Ikhwan al Safa, thanks for reminding me

>>13641183

No problem.

I highly suggest M.M. Sharif’s A History of Muslim Philosophy to get some context on their emergence, this book tells you most of the basics about Islamic philosophy:

> http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/hmp/

I also highly suggest Muhammad Iqbal’s The Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam, a seminal work for the efforts of Islamists today; it’s basically about how Islam must be used to interpret modernism, written during the British Raj. Iqbal is considered one of the poets laureate of Pakistan, fucking brilliant.

>>13641154
Ok, I just got to the part where he is talking about legislation and the purpose of law, and he is completely btfoing the concept of divine law as found in Islam and Judaism. Abrahamics on fucking suicide watch

>>13638991
No one has any views on this?

>>13623447
>Rome was fine till Christians came
The nearly 1000-year spanning Eastern Roman Empire would like to have a talk with you

>>13642297
>greek
>east
>"roman"

bump

>>13642453
>empire
Greece and part of turkey most of the time.
Might as well say the Franks were the Northwestern Roman Empire. Or that the Latin Empire was well named.

>>13628714
Even the thought of foolishness is sin. The word for sin is the word for missing the target with an arrow, and there is no one who is good, not one (except Jesus, Who is God). Christianity is pretty much stoicism with a sense of purpose.

>>13628841
This is perverted. People are supposed to marry their better half-genome for children, and feel whole when they're married because God's first commandment to Adam was to replenish the earth.

>>13643851
>there is no one who is good, not one
a philosopher is more than good, he is divine
>stoicism
moralistic nonsense

>>13643886
Does the word Divine have a meaning, or are you just being sentimental while denouncing moralism?

>>13644003
Yeah it has a meaning. It relates to the order of things which is immutable and transcendent. Insofar as the desire to apprehend that realm is what makes one a philosopher, the philosopher has a share in it and can thus claim to possess a divine status.

>>13643886
Maybe engineers and philosophers can be divine in a metaphorical sense when they create things and add to the geistesgeschichte, because God is the Creator.

>>13644025
a true philosopher doesn't "add" anything, he recalls what is and was and will be eternally true, and through action realizes it in the world

>>13643851
>>13643866
>>13644003
>>13644025

>THE HOI
You clearly don't know shit about Greek

>>13644172
You got me there, I already admitted as much

bump

>>13643851
thank you, pastor. very cool

>>13634764
>>13636595
any other secondary literature on platonism/neoplatonism? i’ll take all the reccs you can dish out

bump

BROS we gotta put together some kind of program to educate ourselves. At least for our own edification. There's gotta be some way we can reconstruct, in our modern context, a true religion. There's nowhere we can go to attend Hellenist services, so we're going to have to make our own temples at home. I don't even know where to start. Anybody got any leads?

>>13618505
>referring to varg as "some youtuber"
top zozzle

>Tfw you are not neoplatonic because heideggerianism
>Tfw not sure if I can workship Sol Invictus because of that

>>13646254
Maybe a chart. I mean this isn't /tg/, we can probably only get a chart together.

Cool thing about our neoplatonism, it'll be as related to the original neoplatonists as they were to Plato.

>>13646254
If you need help understanding Plato’s dialogues look up Pierre Grimes on youtube. He has a lot of material on Platonism and Neoplatonism, lectures on specific dialogues, and other random stuff