/lit/ - Literature

>DSA

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/07/04/soci-j04.html

"no"

>>13625580
I think his whole schtick was pretending to be retarded. Looks like it brought in actual retards.

>>13625580
No, he would have these faggots hanged

i think he'd be a fan of the clown prince

>>13625580
>tfw leftist but even I'm not going to try and defend that shitshow
and people wonder why trump got into power.

>>13625637
>and people wonder why trump got into power.
He got elected because the American economic elite has perfected the art of spooking rednecks into voting against their self-interest as long as whomever the Republicans elect is mean enough to brown people.

>>13625580
Pretty hilarious t.b.h.
>nearly everyone starting their intervention with "person of privilege"

Leftiists or not Anglos are gonna Anglo.
Cringe aside the advice that people take more time to ponder the resolution is a legit good one.

>>13625661
>rednecks
you mean white people?
I mean damn.... if this many white people, a near majority of the voting electorate in the USA of 2016, hate brown people, then maybe there should be some progress towards meeting their desires.... whoa damn stop me right there I'm thinking dangerous thoughts

>>13625580
holy FUCK, I almost want to stop being lib socialist over this

>>13625697
>being lib socialist
Reading Noam Chomsky and not voting because "the whole system is fucked..."

>>13625661
Open borders aren't in my best interests, bozo.

>>13625708
>not voting
you're thinking of centrists, I vote Dem by default since they're slightly further left economically than the GOP

>>13625687
Shut up.

>>13625661
>man on Korean basket weaving forum knows whats in the best interests of the rural American

daily reminder that he approved the expulsion of a woman from the first International because she was too concerned with sex and equality issues rather than class issues
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Woodhull#First_International

>>13625602
This seems good at first but then just devolves into bullshit and seems to be making shit up halfway through. Pretty disappointing, I was hoping we could wrap up this capitalism thing sooner.

>>13625661
>>13625687
Plenty of people voted against Hillary rather than for Trump. In the eyes of many she was "let's provoke Russia into starting WWIII" Hillary. Funny how Russia has to play a hand in this no matter who wins in the end.

You cannot have equality as long as you have people.

>>13625580
OP is a faggot.
that's why he gets a point of privilege

>>13625776
>let's provoke Russia into starting WWIII
Don't we have a MAD situation that would just make it a continuation of the cold war which a lot of people already think never really ended?

>>13625785

>>13625790
Yes, until there is nothing left. It is the only way to achieve understanding. Look at nature for equality.

>>13625823
/pol/yp tier opinion. Read a book.

>>13625580
He would probably hang himself as soon as someone ran him through what actually happened as a result of his intellectually destitute analysis of economic history.

>>13625661
LIBERALS: >You see white man, we need you to be a minority so that we can confiscate your firearms, expose your children to pedophiles in school, implement hate speech laws, and then gradually redistribute the wealth of your entire familial line to foreigners who are already a net drain on the tax weal.
>Also we hate you, and we want your grandkids to look nothing like you, and hopefully be gay.

ALSO LIBERALS: >WHAT THE FUCK YOU STUPID REDNECKS WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU VOTING AGAINST THE ANTI-WHITE PARTY!!!!?!???!?!??!

Yikes!

>>13625833
Retard. Marxism is a science.

>>13625848
I agree, Liberals are cancer. But we're not talking about liberals, we're talking about socialism

>>13625850
It is literally the opposite of science, it is philosophic conjecture at best. Half of the assertions are unfalsifiable semantic shell games.

I.E., the orthodox Marxist definition of value is literally impossible to test. It presupposes as an axiom that no matter how much you are paid for a good or a service, if the person you perform that service for benefits or profits from it, they have exploited you. That is an a-priori assumption that is used to justify the entire theory of Capitalist exploitation. It was not a hypothesis and it was not tested in any sort of experiment.

Conversely you can go test Market Value theory right fucking now. Here's the hypothesis: "A good or service is worth whatever you can sell it for, its value fluctuates depending on demand and availability."

So you see, under Marx's definition, which includes a bunch of magic words like "use value" and God knows what else, it doesn't matter how much you are paid for your labor, because you are always, always, always being exploited unless the guy paying you is breaking exactly even or losing money.

Under real economic science, if you agree to work for $10 an hour, you are agreeing that your labor is worth $10 an hour. If you sell a bottle of water in the desert for $50 and someone buys it, that bottle of water was worth $50 to that person. That's empirical. That's something you can test, and what a surprise, it turns out that yeah, that model of value can be falsified, but it hasn't been yet. And the result of this is that the entire foundation of Socialist theory is built on sand. Capitalism is not intrinsically exploitative, it is merely a system within which injustices (unfair working conditions, company town scenarios, etc) can occur.

>>13625848
They don't even have any bones to throw to poor whites in the form of pro-worker policies. Repopulating their town with low-wage migrant workers is only going to hurt their job prospects, drive up crime, etc. The most you could say they're trying to do is increase the availability of healthcare, but Obamacare was never affordable to lower class people, and the current crop of candidates all support giving free healthcare to illegal immigrants, and thus destroying the lower classes through massive tax increases.

>>13625580
American socialism died in early 20th century. All that remains is a hideous derivative of it.

>>13625661
Well the alternative was Hillary Clinton

>>13625883
>Marxism = no free markets

>>13625734
Read Land and start shilling Trump

>>13625580
>Firstly, if these people are to be of use to the proletarian movement, they must introduce genuinely educative elements. However, in the case of the vast majority of German bourgeois converts, this is not the case. Neither the Zukunft nor the Neue Gesellschaft has contributed anything that might have advanced the movement by a single step. *Here we find a complete lack of genuinely educative matter, either factual or theoretical. In place of it, attempts to reconcile superficially assimilated socialist ideas with the most diverse theoretical viewpoints which these gentlemen have introduced from the university or elsewhere, and of which each is more muddled than the last thanks to the process of decay taking place in what remains of German philosophy today. Instead of first making a thorough study of the new science, each man chose to adapt it to the viewpoint he had brought with him, not hesitating to produce his own brand of science and straightaway assert his right to teach it. Hence there are, amongst these gentlemen, almost as many viewpoints as there are heads; instead of elucidating anything, they have only made confusion worse — by good fortune, almost exclusively amongst themselves. The party can well dispense with educative elements such as these for whom it is axiomatic to teach what they have not learnt.

>>13625785
>"The elimination of all social and political inequality," rather than "the abolition of all class distinctions," is similarly a most dubious expression. As between one country, one province and even one place and another, living conditions will always evince a certain inequality which may be reduced to a minimum but never wholly eliminated. The living conditions Alpine dwellers will always be different from those of the plainsmen. The concept of a socialist society as a realm of equality is a one-sided French concept deriving from the old "liberty, equality, fraternity," a concept which was justified in that, in its own time and place, it signified a phase of development, but which, like all the one-sided ideas of earlier socialist schools, ought now to be superseded, since they produce nothing but mental confusion, and more accurate ways of presenting the matter have been discovered.

Read Marx and Engels.

>>13625883
Read Hegel.

>>13625831
That's pretty much a statement of fact though. People are not equal in ability, temperament, or physiology. The most you can really try to do is social status, except those same inequities will create people who wield more social power because they're more popular or more charismatic.

The onus is entirely on you to explain your case, because right now all observable data points to inequity being the universal state of mankind.

>>13625945
Marxism doesn't mean equality retard
Holy fuck when did this board get infested with such brainlets

>>13625953
>Holy fuck when did this board get infested with such brainlets
When Marxists started posting here desu

>>13625953
Depends what day you ask the marxist.

>>13625959
Clearly not considering you unironically think Marxism = every equal

Marx was expecting a socialist revolution in the US on the grounds that it had an advanced economy, I cannot for the life of me see it happening.

>>13626033
tbhfam the shit that was going on in the US back in his time was hope inducing

>>13626039
Like what, finishing the American Natives off for good?

>>13625580
Is there such a thing as right wing third worldism? You believe the reactionary third world is the only thing that can save the decadent and declining West?
I'm thinking of the Birmingham protests and Western Sydney here.

>>13626073
To answer your first question, there are definitely pan-Arabisms, etc. which are not left wing either by the standards of marxism or the morons scared by clapping in OP's video. You had people like Gaddafi, who's not the most left wing guy imaginable, organizing pan-African meetings, he even dreamed of an African monetary union before the IMF cartel sent Obama after his ass, and we saw in his last few moments, I mean this quite literally.

Whoever lives outside the Anglosphere and has a problem with "Western values" is in rebellion against the jazz hands crowd as well. Simply put, the third world, wherever that is, is always to the right of them, and not just on the world map.

In fact I'd say I struggle more with finding a left wing third worldism in the 21st century, as I couldn't help but notice that there is no USSR anymore.

>>13626066
>Civil war
>Chicago strikes
>relatively class conscious workforce in the North
>bourgeois democracy

>>13625966
do people get rewarded based on their "need" or the amount of responsibility they take on?

The state of the contemporary American left is the result of decades worth of CIA and other alphabet agency psyops and false flag operations designed to turn them away from genuine workers' rights issues toward weird racial and sexual idpol stuff as a way of discrediting and alienating them from normal workingclass people. The establishment basically neutered them as a revolutionary force in doing so. Occupy Wallstreet could have overturned the entire capitalist system in the US if it wasn't for every activist movement glomming on like parasites and draining the vitality of the movement through the progressive stack, for example. Communists outside of the west recognize the way capitalist liberalism has infiltrated leftwing politics in order to subvert it there. Literally all you have to do is compare Eastern and Western Communists to see the fruit of the intelligence agencies' labor. Honestly I can see a huge backsliding on workers rights all over the West in the coming decades, which isn't really that surprising because the working class there was basically liquidated and outsourced by globalism over the past few decades. It's really depressing.

>>13626119
Rewarded with what?

>>13626197
I've seen the theory it was the alphabets behind it, but I've never seen any proof.

>>13626209
It's literally their job to infiltrate and eliminate groups that threaten the state. Think about the ways the American left has changed since the late 1940s, when the OSS came home from the war.

>>13626073
I'm a nationalist and religious but I despise capitalism and communism alike, corporatism, moderate socialism or syndicalism is a better system IMO.
What the fuck am I?

>>13626225
>marginalized peoples are all feds

>say literally anything about marx
>some commie always goes "nooooo he didn't mean that nononooo"

>>13626247
The only thing Marxists are good for is arguing about what Marxism "actually" means; none of them can agree on precisely what that is, but they can all agree that you are wrong about it.

>>13626236
Unironically a fascist.
That or a distributist.

>>13626246
It wouldn't surprise me if the core membership of every radical political group in the United States was made up entirely of federal agents, no, and any acts of terrorism that happen to occur are simply the result of different agencies getting their wires crossed. Do you have any idea how effective modern law enforcement techniques in America are, and the kinds of budgets there agencies are working with? I think all the craziness that happened in the late 1960s was just the alphabets seeing how far they could push things.

>>13626300
Yeah I'm still not seeing any proof and if they did concoct all of this shit you have to hand it to them for making it so comical.

>>13626247
Once had a Marxist tell me that Marx never discussed the labour theory of value.

>>13625677
they're saying personal privilege u mong

>>13625580
Del Noce was right.

>>13626247
Well, as long as you say dumb ignorant bullshit then yeah that's going to happen a lot to you.

He’s rolling in his grave

>>13626338
Marxists have to lie about marxism to justify calling themselves Marxists.
I had a Marxist try to tell me that Soviet farm collectivization wasn’t socialism

Who gives a fuck? Read Sorel and Proudhon instead. Marx ruined socialism.

>>13625661
those american elites were fully in on hillary though you crackpot

>>13626392
Cooperatives != Socialism

>>13625661
>Hillary “he a good boy” Clinton was better!
ok faggot.

>>13626405
>Marx ruined socialism
>And then Lenin ruined Marx
>then Stalin ruined Lenin
>And finally internet trannies ruined Stalin
It's brainlets all the way down.

>>13626247
Every discussion with a Marxist feels like an adventure in gaslighting

>>13626433
Government control of the production and distribution of goods = Socialism
Neck thineself