/lit/ - Literature

Catholics are basically neoplatanists who believe incoherent bable about a monad who is also somehow a triune God because they were too small brained for Christian theology. Orthodox believe in the revelation given by Christ which reconciles all the issues with Greek philosophy and allows us to know of a being whose simplicity and multiplicity are not in dialectical tension, three divine persons taking part in one essence.

>>13588464
How does it reconcile it with Greek philosophy if being a neoplatanist talking about a monad supposedly brings the concept into conflict with the idea of God?

>>13588464
What would you recommend to an agnostic who feels somehow drawn to the Church?
I have a lot of issues with the christian God, eg the problem of evil, hell,
Eg someone going to hell for eternity because they had a wank and didn't perform some ritual confession on time before they got hit by a car

Yet somehow its always the Christian god i take issue with, as if I somehow believe to an extent

>>13588464
>christian theology
>is all stolen from greeks, egyptians and mesopotamians

>>13588483
I personally like Jay Dyer's theology lecture series but he'll make Catholics on here absolutely seethe.
>I have a lot of issues with the christian God, eg the problem of evil, hell,
>Eg someone going to hell for eternity because they had a wank and didn't perform some ritual confession on time before they got hit by a car
You have to keep in mind hell is not a separate place in Orthodoxy, it is a state ontologically equivalent to heaven. The only difference is that hell is how it is experienced by those who are in rebellion against God. We don't know who will go to Hell, but we know how to avoid it and that's to repent to God.

>>13588483
Chesterton is really good. He was an agnostic/atheist himself before converting . And even had big ease/letter conversations with H G wells who was a sworn agnostic.
Everlasting man, the man who was Thursday, orthodoxy, or Father Braun are great.
C S Luis is great too but I have not read him.
Dostoyevsky obviously.
This are just the top of my head.
If you want specifically deep Christian theology look for the church fathers and saints, but they will be too much for a beginner imo.

>>13588516
https://youtu.be/Y_LANIjcqDU
Are you talking about this guy?

>>13588452
This is what Orthodoxs believe in.

>>13588528
Yeah, that video is good.

>>13588452
>After nearly an entire lifetime of religious education in schools, I feel like I still don't understand jack shit when it comes to Christian metaphysics like the
>Trinity
Trinity is 3 divine hypostases (persons) who share 1 common divine essence. The Hypostases are Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Father alone is unoriginate and the sole cause of divinity, the Son is eternally begotten of the Father before all ages, the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father before all ages. There is true difference between the eternal begetting of the Son and the eternal procession of the Holy Spirit. The Hypostases are defined not by oposition, but by their "generation" One of the Holy Fathers said that the Father and Son share everything except origin. The indwelling of each divine Person by the other Divine Persons is called perichoresis. All divine Operations follow the Trinitarian formula; from the Father, through the Son, in the Holy Spirit. that doesn't mean that the persons are collapse-able or indistinct. Individual Divine persons can enter into particular tropos, which is why we can say only the Son was incarnate, only the Holy Spirit descended at Pentecost etc.
>sin
Sin is a spiritual disease which has its origin and continuity in the turning of the human will against the will of God. Since God's will sustains creation and is ordered by the thought-wills of God, acting in opposition to God's will is not just a moral transgression, but also a metaphysical negation, leading to non-existence via death. Pic related is St. Athanasius' take on it. It is important to remember that sin is both moral and metaphysical. Some people say it is moral only, denying the extent of it's destructive capacity, other say it is metaphysical only, denying man's personal role in sustaining it. Both are wrong and a balanced view is necessary.

>Orthodoxy
No pope (no matter how much Bart wants to be), no Filioque, no celibate priesthood, Essence/Energies distinction, Ancestral sin instead of Original Sin, no poz,

>Roman Catholicism
Pope, changes to the Creed, sodomite priests, radical divine simplicity, original sin, poz, guitar mass.I think you see where I'm going with this.

>>13588534
If you don't believe in the Saint's holy relics, how can you call yourself a Christian?

>>13588464
lmao cope harder LARPer

The Catholic Church has a rich tradition in philosophy and theology. The "Orthodox" hardly have any philosophy or theology. They don't explain anything, they just say "it is a mystery"

Take for instance transubstantiation. Definite Catholic doctrine. Transubstantiation is pretty simple. Trans ("across") and substance. It's the doctrine that the bread and wine in the Eucharist changes substance. It has the "accidents" of bread and wine, as in, it looks like bread, it feels like bread, it tastes like bread, etc. But the substance of it changes into the actual flesh of Christ.
The Orthodox believe in the real presence of course. They believe the bread and wine becomes the literal body and blood of Christ, the same as Catholics do. But they don't believe in transubstantiation. Talk to an Orthodox Christian. Ask them if they believe in the Real Presence. They say yes. Ask them if they believe the bread and wine keeps the appearance of bread and wine yet becomes the literal body and blood of Christ. They say yes. Ask them if they believe in transubstantiation. They say "No, that is Catholic doctrine."

There is no Orthodox theology. There is orthodox theology, lower case o, which is what the Catholic Church teaches, but the Eastern Orthodox don't really have a set and defined theology. Mostly everything they believe they do it just to reject whatever Rome teaches. They believe in an intermediate state between Earth and Heaven, but not Purgatory, because that's Roman. They believe in the real presence in the Eucharist, but not transubstantiation, cause that's Roman.

So in short, the Orthodox are kinda like Protestants (pic slightly related). The only thing that unites the Orthodox churches is that they don't like the Pope. Jay Dyer (who is a complete joke) and crypto-gnostic Seraphim Rose don't stand a chance against all the Doctors of the Church in the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church in Rome.

Don't listen to Orthodox memers on the internet. They're always Westerners LARPing as Russians or Greeks. None of them even practice the religion. They just "rep" it on the internet. Not like they could practice it anyway, there's hardly any Orthodox churches in the West, because it is a dying church.

>>13589323
What the fuck are agnostics meant to do
How is anyone supposed to know what they're meant to do with all this disagreement

>>13588452
literally filioque, the rest is just traditions

>>13589323
>We can explain everything if we appoint one guy to decide if it's right
Catholics are genius

>>13589582
Filioque is just a consequence of much deeper issues in Latin theology

>>13589756
nice non-refutation, dickweed.

and insofar as textual analysis its a matter of grammar and interpretation not theology

>>13589791
I wasn't arguing with you

>>13588452
Catholicism: the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son
Othrodoxy: Son proceeds from the Father and the spirit is "breathed" from the father.

why were byzantine emperors so concerned about who was bishop of rome if papel primacy was never accepted??
answer me that othodogs

>>13589826
why is the US concerned with literally every other country and their leaders on the planet?

>>13589826
Are you implying they weren't concerned about who the other patriarchs were?

>>13589749
You didn't really refute anything I said. You just replied with a strawman.
Your reply is a joke, just like your church.

>>13589756
Oh? and what would those issues be exactly, Mr. Expert Theologian?

>>13589066
>water with the feet of a dead guy
>saints holy relic

Nigga my shitter water is holier than that

>>13589323
>Orthodoxy has no theology.
You have to literally make a Google search to disprove that.
>Transubstantiation is pretty simple.
No, it's an Aristotelian heretical mess and subjugates God's mysteries to human reason.

>>13588495
>organic theological development under Divine Providence
>theft

>>13589927
ADS

>>13589826
because the Latins in Italy didn't want to be ruled by the Byzantines since they considered them different and would move away from them in any given chance

>>13588452
>Main points of discontent for the Catholic Church are the papal primacy[1][2][3] and the filioque clause.[1][2] For Eastern Orthodox the main point of discontent is voiced by neo-Palamism, which sees the essence-energy distinction, and the experiential vision of God as attained in theoria and theosis, as the main point of divergence between East and West.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theological_differences_between_the_Catholic_Church_and_the_Eastern_Orthodox_Church

I'd chalk up the primary differences between the two to Theosis and the teleology of man: the point of existence is to become like God and transformatively become more divine (Divinization) through God's energies (Palamism). Catholics reject this and primarily view salvation in a metaphysical legalistic framework of judgement: you check all the boxes in life and you get into the heavenly karma club (or if you don't, you go to purgatory or hell).

Here's a good discussion on the issue that handles the theology and metaphysics very well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ_-rOxEDUM

Do the Orthodox comdemn Catholics to Hell?

>>13589323
It's exactly the opposite, the Catholic changed everything to be different for orthodoxy afther the split.

>>13588464
Holy based. fpbp

>>13590800
We don't know make judgements on who exactly goes to Hell but rejecting Christ's church and engaging in heresy is a good way to get yourself there.

>>13590800
Not really. It's not for us to judge others, that's up to God.
Though some clergy will believe there is still some grace left in the Catholic church, most will reject them as heretical.
But any Orthodox (layman or clergy) that condemns people to hell is committing sin.
That's not to say that criticism of Catholicism as incorrect and harmful to one's path to salvation is perfectly acceptable.

>>13588483
Catholicism turned a lot people away due to it's conception of hell. George Carlin actually articulated the feelings of anti-Christian brainlets quite well. He voiced a very real concern: If God loves me, why would he send to a place of eternal fire and damnation? This, of course, wasn't the original message. Hell is more about rejecting God's love and protection a la Adam and Eve. Think about it from a Christian point of view. Man is flawed and weak and God is perfect and all-powerful. With the existence of Satan, it stands to reason that there are forces more powerful than us but less powerful than God. When you reject God you have to fend for yourself after you pass in this life. I say all of this to help you breakdown your heretical perceptions brought about by the Catholic church.

>>13590844
The Catholics went really materialistic with their cartoonish depictions of hell; pitchforks, lava baths, rube goldberg like torturing devices, etc.
The Orthodox belief is that it's a metaphysical ontological position relative to God: the further one's being is dissimilar to God, the more His energies are tormenting. While Heaven being the opposite effect as one is more like God. But "locality" wise, it's the same place: in the presence of God's judgement.

A good example is a bright room: a man who lived in darkness will recoil and feel weeping pain as he is unfamiliar with the light, while a man who is accustomed to light will feel comfortable and right at home.

>>13590923
well put, anon. Catholics are considered to be wayward brothers more than heretics. However, the amount that they fucked up the original teachings can not be understated.

>>13589826
Because the Byzantine Emperors, wanted to get the Empire back, but couldn't take Western Europe.
Pic related is the Empire under Justinian, which was the peak of the Empire, since the Byzantine emperors could't control Western Europe Militarily/Politically, they took the next best thing, which was to control it religiously by controlling the predominant bishop of the West.
IIrc Theodora kicked a Pope off his throne and placed another in his stead, all the Popes for something like 400 years had to be picked from a group of Byzantine approved candidates, and when a Pope of Rome was elected the emperor had to give his consent.

>>13590356
You do realize ADS isn't a real thing right? This is what happens when you learn your theology from retards like Jay Dyer

>>13590178
>Transubstantiation is heretical
Oh really? So you don't believe in the real presence then?

>>13590178
Transubstantiation doesn't subjugate divine mysteries to human reason. It doesn't explain how the Eucharist becomes the actual body of Christ, it just explains what is happening. It looks like bread, feels like bread, tastes like bread, but its substance is the literal body of Christ. You guys believe the same thing.

Also, its kind of ironic how you guys refuse to have a theological explanation for anything and just call it a mystery, EXCEPT for the Trinity, where you just have to explain it with all this energy-essence distinction nonsense. Why are you trying to subjugate the mystery of the Holy Trinity to human reason bro?

>>13588464
>Gay Crier memer
>he hasn't listened to Jared Goff

>it's another OrthoLARP thread

Unless almost everyone in this thread is from Russia, Greece, or the Balkans, almost nobody here is actually Orthodox. At least in the Catholic threads there's a decent chance of running into actual Catholics.

>>13591883
I'm an Orthobro. You rang?

>>13589826
Who cares what they think when they would constantly back-stab each other and even had two women become emperor despite a belief that a woman could never become the "Roman" emperor. You know why the Pope made Charlemagne the emperor of the "Romans"? Because a woman, Irene of Athens, declared herself empress after refusing to hand her regency to her own son who was due to become Emperor. Atter Irene killed her own son and assume authority the Pope at the time rightley assumed that the seat of emperor was vacant and crowned Charlemagne. Charlemagne would later propose Irene for marriage which would've united both his and her empires into one superstate but the Byzantine patriarchs committed a coup and exiled Irene to the Island of Lesbos to die thus ruining the chances of reunification. Basically, Byzantium, which was so imitate with Orthodoxy was a joke of an empire that lasted too long for it's good.

>>13591923
And i'm Catholic and pic-related is more Chad than any Orthodmeme image you could conjure up.

>his empire got ruined by a nearly dead, blind, old man.

The Catholic Church is the One True Church of Jesus Christ. Imagine thinking a Church that never got out of Eastern Europe had successfully answered the Great Commission. Protestants are better at evangelizing than Orthos, for Heaven's sake.

Here's Christian metaphysics in a nutshell:

COPE
O
P
E

That and kiddie fiddling

>>13591883
There's a lot of us cradle orthodox here born in the West.

>>13591868
rekt

>>13591883
Your ancestors were Orthodox before they were Catholic, LARPer

Orthodox is closed English actually they are very different

there no need to fight here, calm down.

>>13593166
>he actually believes one came before the other

>>13593199
The Creed had no Filioque before it had one, heretic

>>13593218
How can people say the word "heretic" in this day an age and hold a straight face is beyond me.

>>13593236
It's quite easy. The Church has defined the infallible dogmas and everyone who rejects them, every heretic is anathema.

https://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2010/02/synodicon-of-orthodoxy.html

>>13591982
Imagine thinking a Church which bastardised its liturgy making it only slightly better than a high church Anglican one could ever be the Church of God.

>>13590923
So theoretically
If I am a truly virtuous (as much as an agnostic can be) agnostic, I'll suffer less in hell than a truly wicked agnostic?

>>13588452
There are two groups that go by the name Orthodox, the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox.
The Oriental Orthodox Group was defined in 451 when its members, primarily the Egyptians, rejected the Council of Chalcedon which declared that Jesus Christ had two natures, a Human nature and a Divine nature, hypo-statically joined together.
The Eastern Orthodox Church came to be defined in 1054 (as did the Roman Catholic Church). The split occurred because the West and East came to disagreement primarily over the person of the Pope of Rome. The Catholic Church teaches that the Pope of Rome has authority over every Church, is the vicar of Christ, the visible source of Church unity, able to produce infallible statements on dogma etc. The Eastern Orthodox church rejects this, believing the Pope should stick in his domain.
The second problem was the filioque, does the Holy Spirit proceed from the Father, or from the Father and the Son. The Catholic West accepted the latter, the Orthodox Church the former.
Finally the Oriental Orthodox Church sides with the Eastern Orthodox Church on all issues but the nature of Christ question established at Chalcedon.

>>13593402
The severity of Hell depends entirely on what the state of your relationship with God is like. If you somehow manage to be a relatively virtuous person but are also an anti-thiest, I can't imagine you would fare to well. If you are full of vice but penitent and humble enough to know your place before God, I imagine you would be better. It's worth noting that the writers of the Bible and the Holy Fathers distinguish between different kinds of "hell." We see references to Gehenna, the Outer Darkness, Tartarus etc. If you're interested you could probably find a book going into detail on the matter.

>>13593429
What of those who are open to god and seek God, but die before they are baptised etc?

>>13588528
2h in and this answers some of the questions in this thread

>>13593441
Catechumens who die are considered martyrs so I assume that If someone is sincerely in the process of inquiry and planning to become Christian they would be treated as such. 2 things though, firstly, nobody knows all the answers to this, the Fathers give their views but unless it has been dogmatized at council, it is a theological opinion only. Secondly God is not autistic, He is not a judge trying to find any small excuse to damn us, he is just and merciful and looks for any small excuse to save us. I don't know how well read you are in Christian lit but you will be hard-pressed to find a Psalm which doesn't speak of God's mercy and loving-kindness for mankind. Repentance is key though. There are many stories of pious monastics who on their deathbeds are heard pleading with angels to give them more time for repentance.

>>13593441
>>13593465
>Catechumens who die are considered martyrs
I should have said that catechumens who die as martyrs are considered such. Consider the penitent thief or Matthew Ayariga, the Ghanaian who was murdered alongside the 20 Coptic Martyrs of Libya. Both confessed their faith only when faced with death yet both, I'm sure are counted among the saints

you need to jump a level above christianity to fully understand it, i stead of just believing it. study jung.

>>13593476
>Secondly God is not autistic, He is not a judge trying to find any small excuse to damn us, he is just and merciful and looks for any small excuse to save us.
In opposition to what the Catholics and Jews believe

>>13593512
exactly

>>13593508
Worst post in this thread

>>13593508
I cannot imagine a worse take than this. Stop listening to Jordan Peterson

>>13593476
>There are many stories of pious monastics who on their deathbeds are heard pleading with angels to give them more time for repentance.
Isn't this despair? Are you implying that they may be damned because they actually didn't do enough to repent or because they didn't believe that God would forgive them?

personally use Orthodoxy to defend my patrimony and to look for capital for my company

>>13593547
>Isn't this despair? Are you implying that they may be damned because they actually didn't do enough to repent or because they didn't believe that God would forgive them?
Absolutely not damned. Just that they realized as they approached death that they weren't as penitent as they thought and wanted to be as well prepared as possible. Their understanding that we are incapable of repentance that transcends our transgression is not despair but wisdom and humility

>>13593376
Imagine thinking a Church which allows divorce and remarriage up to 3 times and allows contraception and temporarily allowed abortion could ever be the Church of God

>>13593402
Orthodoxy still believes that righteous people can be saved through God's Grace. This is exampled with all the OT righteous people like King David and the prophets and such, who are considered saints despite not being baptized or partaking in communion.
Though Orthodox Theology does teach that the Church and an Orthodox Christian life is the best path toward one's regeneration and salvation; everything else would be risky for one's soul. It's fundamentally up to God though as it is not within our purview to judge; though sometimes God does reveal to us the fate (good or bad) of individuals.

>>13593547
Not despair, but sincerity of one's repentance. A realization of the difference that one is from God and an appeal to His Grace to be merciful and allow time for atonement and wisdom.
Hence the core message of the Jesus Prayer:
>Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner.
Which was repeated by many living saints, even after they had become divine in life, all the way to their physical repose.

Theosis is a never ending process in this life and the next. You'll never be God, but you can always be more like God.

>>13594599
Okay thank you
I'm an agnostic myself, but somehow this feels important to me
I'll just try to be as good as I can I guess

>>13589579
Become Catholic
Look how much disagreement is in the Orthodox Church in that pic. The Catholics are united under the Seat of St. Peter, the Papacy. The early Christian theologians (the Church Fathers) talk about the Seat of Peter (which is in Rome) as the source of unity for the Church. Look at the splitting among the Orthos and you'll see that they are indeed cut off from the true Church.
OP. Do not fall for their smoke and mirrors of "catholicism is a meanie religion :( orthodox are nice! hell isn't fire and brimstone! its just being in the presence of God and not liking it (which is totally heretical bullshit btw)"

There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church

>>13590923
This is heretical garbage.
Hell was created for Satan and his fallen angels. If you reject God's grace then God won't force you into Heaven and Satan and his demons will take your soul to Hell.
HELL IS EMPTY OF GOD'S PRESENCE. STOP SPREADING YOUR LIES ABOUT HELL. ITS HERESY.

>>13595479
Peddle your Dungeons & Dragons hell somewhere else.
You fools reduced hell from a serious metaphysical state of the soul to a material joke to scare people into paying tithes and seeding authority to religious bureaucrats. No wonder the Protestants protested against you.
Seriously, your whole theological bases to be Roman Catholic is fear of hell rather than transcendence in loving of God.

Maybe you can devote some of your "theologians" to figure out the economy of how fiendish pitchforks are manufactured there.

>>13588452
>he thinks the trinity and sin should qualify as "metaphysics"

>>13595684
We teach what Jesus Christ taught. You teach some eastern gnostic bullshit.

>>13595684
>he thinks artistic depictions of Hell are theologically accurate
I bet you think Dante's Inferno is actual Catholic teaching on hell lmfao

You look prettier on the computer, although your high traffic gets stucked

#20190806 Por qué se celebra hoy el Día del veterinario - LA NACION
http://tridejur.uy/t123.php?id=2260252&alta=2019-08-06%2015:51:00

>>13595464
Nah
It all seems like shit
If I go to hell, then I go to hell, whatever lol
I'ma just enjoy life

>>13596251
hedonists are the weakest race

>>13588495
>>13589323
>It has the "accidents" of bread and wine, as in, it looks like bread, it feels like bread, it tastes like bread, etc. But the substance of it changes into the actual flesh of Christ.
lol that's so fucking stupid. why? there's no point. its like you're so autistic you don't know what a symbol is

>>13588495
By that logic the Greeks stole is from the Egyptians since Plato explicitly said that he was not the supreme author of his own doctrines. You can keep going back further and further. It is a pointless argument and steeped in the modern preoccupation for the "originator" as if it is some copywritten idea.

>>13588534
Haha yeah, Catholics have no dead body par-
https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/st-olivers-head-st-peters-church

>>13597345
We have plenty of relics including whole incorruptible bodies of saints but you know what we don't do? We don't submerge the hands and feet of saints in some water and a crowd of people nearly stampeding each other get some said water to later drink it, bath in it, and God knows what else.

>>13588464
is this english

>>13597320
Correct. The problem is the moron saying "Christian theology" as if it is unique, revolutionary or the only truth/path there is.

>>13597036
I'm not a hedonist
Ethically I'm more Aristotlean, in pursuit of Eudaimonia
I want to live well in this life, I don't see how Christianity would lead to that
With all the interfaith shit flinging and scriptural bickering, how am I to know which version to follow, if the truth is even in Christianity?

>>13598550
Medjugorie is a bigger joke than some priest punting a relic in water.
Stop tying to somehow sanctify or condemn everything. And use real arguments fuck up by people will happen.

>>13590844
>Hell is more about rejecting God's love and protection a la Adam and Eve.
Origen tried to rationalize hell this way and was declared a heretic in 553 during the Fifth Ecumenical Council. Augustine insisted that the version of hell in which unbelievers had a literal physical body which would be burning for all eternity while everyone in heaven watched (for all eternity) was absolutely necessary. Try again sweatie.

>>13599780
>while everyone in heaven watched
wtf lol

>>13598888
You read form the beginning with the church fathers obviously. And the ecumenical consuls. All will be clear.
All the Hellenic believes where talked about and refuted by the church fathers.