/lit/ - Literature

>>13500237
The Vatican II basically changed a lot of Catholic dogma in order to modernize the Church. Some of the changes are strange and make one doubt the intentions of the conference. For example, the Vatican II held that the Jews will be saved (despite rejecting Christ), when salvation was prior to that, taught as something only Catholics would enjoy. Can a church call itself Christian at all if you don't even have to believe in Christ to be saved? When you could even actively reject him and have committed deicide against him? Peculiar... It's clear that the Vatican II had strange political motives. The Church basically cucked for socialists, communists, non-Christians, Jews, etc. in order to make itself more appealing and maintain relevance. This had the opposite effect of course.

>>13500263
What are some other things it did? Will it be unironically the throne of the Antichrist?

>>13500237
it changed the eternal catholic doctrine to fit into the modern age, made freemasons infiltrate the church, ruined lives of millions of people and plunged catholic community into degeneracy

>>13500270
I'm not sure. But those who reject the Vatican II usually also reject the Pope and claim he is an anti-Pope. I don't think anti-Pope and anti-Christ are synonymous, but surely the Church might have some type of relationship to the anti-Christ since it has abandoned the original vision of the Church. If you're curious about this, the most prominent critics of the Vatican II are the Most Holy Family Monastery. You can find their videos on the subject on YouTube. Whether you believe their positions is up to you, but I think any Catholic, sedevacantist or not, will find that the Vatican II was a step back for the Church.

>>13500263
>changed
No. Everything before Vatican II is still valid. It's just the new forms are officially preferred and bishops enforce that preference. When all these pedo-protecting boomer fucks die off the Church will experience a revival. It's already starting. Unfortunately young priests are learning bad habits from their superiors.

>>13500297
>>13500309
>all catholics are either sedes or normtrads

>>13500312
Nobody ever said that.

>>13500312
sedes are hellbound dopes and normietrads are smarter than you think. a conservative attitude is absolutely the right way to think about the deposit of faith.

>>13500237
If church thing true
Why they make change church thing? They change to not true or was not true before?

>>13500326
how can you possibly believe that hermeneutic of continuity is real with second vatican
and how can you think that catholic community will reach revival under vatican establishment which is thoroughly modernist - all i see is sspx trying to cathecise people, open schools, keep true teachings and such with fssp, burke and such breaking these efforts in a false overexaggerated notion of loyalty and being contented to praying """extraordinary""" liturgy in pope assigned cuckshed
but hey, at least you arent "schismatics"

>>13500326
Being a conservative is full blown retard, what are you trying to conserve? Values that progressives established 30 years ago? The only way to fight this shit is within a reactionary mindset, rejecting most if not all of modernity.

>>13500339
>how can you possibly believe that hermeneutic of continuity is real with the schism of 1378 and two popes one in avignon one in rome
you're a retard

>>13500345
>trust me guys, were the same
>we just stay "loyal" to the pope and the church, we totally dont call you schismatic protestants behind your back
>never mind nebraska hah hah, no grudges, right, we are frens now
puzzle me this "trad" - whats the primary purpose of marriage

>>13500343
Gotta conserve those record low black unemployment numbers

>>13500343
>Values that progressives established 30 years ago?
newly emancipated libtard detected.

conservative Catholic values are much, much older than 30 years ago. political progressives are in the Church, yes, but the reaction against them is killing the Church in the first world. lukewarm Germans who favor state politics over Christ, useful idiot Americans who have been brainwashed by talmudvision into thinking abortion is good and a natural right. they're falling away for a reason, and the Church should be sad to see these souls go but she does not need them. the Church will survive.

>>13500354
>puzzle me this "trad" - whats the primary purpose of marriage
the right ordering of human sexuality and propagation of the species. you can't make saints without making people first. the only other alternative is voluntary celibacy.

>>13500362
lmao these conservatives all believe in religious freedoms and womyns rights
just go take a look at r/catholicism, its basically conservative normtrad general

>>13500372
well your precious 1983 canon says otherwise

>>13500375
no thanks. anyone who compromises on abortion can't honestly call themselves a Catholic.

damn, thread turned into cancer so quick :(

>>13500384
>muh abortion
its not what i was talking about and you know it

>>13500383
i'm sure it does. i'm just giving my own understanding in my own words. why don't you enlighten me.

>>13500387
1983 canon law changes things - including definition of marriage which it inverts and pulls "love" out like rabbit from the hat
or how the pope banned uniatism
or how about religious freedom all those trads keep pushing
or how about your vision of womens rights being in line with classical feminism

>>13500385
there's another blessed pauline thread out there

>>13500383
I was actually interested in this and decided to look up the 1983 canon code on marriage and I cannot find what you are referring to. In fact it says:
>Canon 1055.1 The marriage covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of their whole life, and which of its own very nature is ordered to the well-being of the spouses and to the procreation and upbringing of children, has, between the baptised, been raised by Christ the Lord to the dignity of a sacrament.

This does not provide an explicit hierarchy as to which is the primary motivation (unlike 1917). I think it's then unfair to say it "says otherwise" when it is actually silent on the issue of which is primary.

>>13500401
>or how the pope banned uniatism
pope should have banned ur autism

>>13500237
Destroyed the liturgy and made it masonic and invalidated millenia old dogma, but apparently you can cope you way into believing otherwise, and that in the current year the Catholic church stands for something.

You may not like it or accept it, but only Muslims are fighting for justice and against imperialism. Ever since the Catholic church invalidated its dogma with Vatican 2 it's been shilling U.N. policy and staying silent on nearly everything that matters.

>>13500863
I ought to mention that many of the Orthodox churches, while still not strong are not committing suicide.

It's statistically impossible by the way Pope Francis is stacking the cardinals for there to be a traditional pope elected afterwards. The damage will have been done. The Catholic church defends itself extremely poorly and apparently opts for suicide.

>>13500237
>Why Vatican II bad?
Literally nothing at all. Nobody knows what they're talking about.

>>13500863
>but only Muslims are fighting for justice and against imperialism.
That's funny because as much as a /his/ pleb I am Pope John Paul ll issued a statement condemning the eminent Iraq war and urged for peace but of course he was completely ignored.

Imagine being a papist in 2019 A.D.

>>13500926
Imagine being a protestant who uses the official language of the supposedly 'satanic' Church, Latin, whenever he says "A.D", Anno Domini, or even when he says "Amen" which is also Latin.

>inb4 incoherent protcuck apologetic's

>>13500926
The reformation lead to a precedent that birthed the current crop of socialists and progressives we have today.

>>13500937
>Catholicucks have exclusive rights to the Latin language

>>13500939
That is some serious delusion, even for a papist.

>>13500981
Says the protty whose entire justification and lore is based on outdated armchair history about the early Church.

>>13500973
Where did Latin originate? - Rome
What authority crucified Jesus? - Rome
Where/what is the supposedly whore of Babylon? - Rome
Where is the headquarters of this 'false' church? - Rome
What city does a bishop that supposedly speaks for God live? - Rome

Oh no, looks like you're another one of myriad of dumb protestants.

>>13500939
>implying socialism is a protestant creation
>doesnt realize a jew created socialism
Nice bait. Socialism is not a new creation neither is it illogical to think of it

>>13501008
>lead to a precedent
Reading comprehension in the deep negatives.

>>13501012
I k ow what our saying anon, im just saying protestanism did not create socialism

>>13501020
Vatican 2 was a clear corruption of dogma but an even bigger cope is when Protestants are asked to find their church before Luther and they literally cannot.

>>13501036
Catholicuck cope

>>13501043
This infograph is incomprehensible. Explain.

>>13501048
He's probably going to say that the Catholic Church wasn't founded until the great schism or whatever X date or conveniently after the Church complied the Bible after which it magically became apostate until Martin Luther came along.

>>13501048
Baptists have an unbroken line of apostolic succession.

>>13501043
Might as well say Pauline Christianity isn't real Christianity.

Protestants accept the canonical gospels because of what is today the Catholic and Orthodox churches.

You think the Catholic and the Orthodox were right about choosing the books of the New Testament but wrong about everything else...how do you know they're not wrong about the New Testament?

>>13501061
WE WUZ APOSTLES N SHIEET

>>13501048
it's a meme, you dip

>>13500237
donate to my patreon and I will make a youtube video about it ;)

>>13500263
We have a jewish pope that should tell you everything

Sedes are American Protestants

>>13501061
>Baptists have an unbroken line of apostolic succession.
Based.

"We believe that the Baptists are the original Christians. We did not commence our existence at the reformation, we were reformers before Luther or Calvin were born; we never came from the Church of Rome, for we were never in it, but we have an unbroken line up to the apostles themselves. We have always existed from the very days of Christ, and our principles, sometimes veiled and forgotten, like a river which may travel underground for a little season, have always had honest and holy adherents. Persecuted alike by Romanists and Protestants of almost every sect, yet there has never existed a Government holding Baptist principles which persecuted others; nor I believe any body of Baptists ever held it to be right to put the consciences of others under the control of man. We have ever been ready to suffer, as our martyrologies will prove, but we are not ready to accept any help from the State, to prostitute the purity of the Bride of Christ to any alliance with the government, and we will never make the Church, although the Queen, the despot over the consciences of men". - C.H. Spurgeon

>>13500237
The real trad option is rejecting christianity as an alien semitic religion based on slave morality. Jesus Christ is the god of the weak and pretty much the original sjw. theres a reason why in roman times the christian faith was associated with slaves, prostitutes and the dregs of society in general. even the most recalcitrant of tradcath LARPers knows the conclusions of cultural marxism follow from christian premises: muh life is sacred, all men are the children of god, exaltation of weakness and disease, demonisation of power and health. Christianity is the disease that is killing the west, it must be cut down from the root and violently expurgated. I wish for a New Order to put an end to the 2000 year slave revolt and restore manful imperial virtues.

>>13500297
>But those who reject the Vatican II usually also reject the Pope and claim he is an anti-Pope.

Not so — the SSPX reject Vatican II and yet recognise the pope. The SSPX's grounds for rejecting Vatican II are that it was sui generis in being the first oecumenical council that was purely disciplinary rather than dogmatic — indeed, the first oecumenical council that pronounced no anathemas.

>>13500263
ok incel

>>13500263
The great american poltard memetheologian has spoken!!!! truly genius!!!

>>13500237
Vatican 2 is worse then Protestantism
https://youtu.be/WWo-7uVR8yI

>>13501071
>All you have to do is believe, no matter what I say or do I will get into heaven because I’m saved - Protestants
Catholics go to hell because they do stuff I don’t like - Protestants

>>13500263
>The Vatican II basically changed a lot of Catholic dogma in order to modernize the Church.
No it didn't. No dogma was changed.
If dogma was changed the Catholic Church would be a false Church and Christianity in General would be false.

>>13502876
>the Catholic Church would be a false Church and Christianity in General would be false
Wow... so... consistent with science?

>>13502888
Science isn't possible without Christianity and in particular Catholicism. The question isn't How consistent is Christianity with science But How consistent is science with Christianity.
The small irrelevant heresies the """scientific consensus""" (lmao) is harbouring atm will be solved in a century tops.

>>13500937
>protcuck

imagine being a catholic larper on 4chan

>>13501068

Because we wrote the fucking books, and therefore when used in their proper purpose they serve to the same ends as they did all the way back to earliest Christendom

>YOU SHALL BE THE ROCK UPON WHICH I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH
>A ROCK, AS IN, SOMETHING HARD AND UNCHANGING AGAINST THE CRASHING WAVES OF TIME
>SO DONT GO CHANGE IMPORTANT MILLENNIA-OLD THEOLOGICAL FUNDAMENTS BECAUSE IT'S IN VOGUE, OK?
GUESS WHAT THEY DID

>>13503009
Based elephant

>>13503009
Exactly What he told them: they changed the presentation and didn't change any fundamental.
Only brainlets whose one ability in debate is ad hominem tu quoque believe otherwise.
You are one such brainlets.

>>13503248
>Irreparable rot has set into the Church, most damaging of all being perspectivism and failure to observe the holy rites, but it is just a coincidence that this began with Vatican II

>>13503267
>>irreparable
>>just a coincidence that...
I see you're busy talking to yourself rather than addressing What I was saying exactly as predicted.

>>13503276
Half of your 'argument' was saying "you're a dummy", i can do no more with what little you've given me.

>>13503281
It's obviously right tho because YOU ARE A DUMMY and you proved it by doing exactly What Isaid you would.

>>13500237
>>>/his/

>>13500937
The preferred nomenclature is "proteshit."

>all this infighting
Chill out bros, just read the Bible and follow the example of Christ.

>>13502876
rev up that circular reasoning

>>13503009
>A ROCK, AS IN, SOMETHING HARD AND UNCHANGING AGAINST THE CRASHING WAVES OF TIME
What did Jesus mean by this? Didn't he know about weathering and erosion? He lived in a desert!

>>13502841
>Once saved always saved
Some protestants don't even believe sin is real
>be protestant
>masturbate
>it's okay because I've accepted Jesus in my heart

>>13502930
I'll be the first to say i'm a sinner and that being on this board and interacting with my supposed "brothers and sisters in Christ" (lol) the same "brothers and sisters" who would say I worship the Pope over Jesus, or I worship Mary, or I never the Bible, is not good for my spiritual and mental well being. Plus, "protcuck" sounds hilarious. Oh, and I just got back from Church but don't you or anyone else think I took the Eucharist.

>>13503720
read*

Protestants aren’t Christians.

>>13500338
this

"oh hey let's just change the dogma to suit the world"
"n-no wait why are people falling away from the Church? We changed ourselves to match with the current worldly zeitgeist, why aren't people taking us seriously anymore?"
They should have gone the other way and been more conservative. Not quite Islam, but basically the church should have stood against the world instead of bowing to it and superseding holy things with the impermanent.

>>13503389
How is dying on a stick going to help

>>13500237
alienates the core audience while failing to capture new secular converts, pretty much the worst of both worlds (and why church attendance has pretty much gone off a cliff)

>>13500270
It effectively is. Vatican II was result of satanic infiltration.

OP here. Can you guys explain in detail how it's satanic exactly? I want full posts of info or at least guide me to good books that explain the whole situation please. Keep in mind I have 0 knowledge in theology.

>>13504025
>VII didn't formally change dogma
>VII brought a new pastoral "spirit" to the Church
>"Spirit of VII" is essentially modernism
>modernism is the result of infiltration by freemasonry
>modernism is the replacement of worship of God with worship of men
>satanism is the rebellious spirit of self-worship

Read "The Second Vatican Council - An Unwritten Story" by Roberto de Mattei and "Infiltration" by Taylor Marshall.

>>13503511
That is what dogma itself says
It's like a constitution.
Nobody has the power to CHANGE the depositum fidei, much less the Pope.
What They did was changing the presentation of some things and as >>13504515 says, letting themselves become infatuated with the "spirit" of CVII rather than following the letter which had no real problem.
I can agree that THIS was a source of infiltration, a way for commies and gays (that is pedophiles, the terms are synonimous) to enter the Church
>13503909
>"oh hey let's just change the dogma to suit the world"
If You can point one (1) actual dogma which was actually changed I shall break my rosary and become a protestant This very fucking instant.
Protip, you can't; You'll just list "things" that "look like dogmas to You" and then insult my intelligence Because That's all You can do.

>>13503909
>They should have gone the other way and been more conservative. Not quite Islam, but basically the church should have stood against the world instead of bowing to it and superseding holy things with the impermanent.
That is True.

>>13500263
>Can a church call itself Christian at all if you don't even have to believe in Christ to be saved?
Yes. Jesus wasn't a Christian. He was a Jew.
Go fuck yourself, moron.

>>13503389

Two things Catholics hate more than "atheists" do. The latter in particular is on par with Pharisaic Christophobia.

>>13503886
>Protestants aren’t Christians.
OH NO HAHAHAHAHA

CCC 838
>The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter. Those who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. With the Orthodox churches, this communion is so profound that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist. (CCC 838)

>>13500263
It is funny how religions and such cuck to progressivism as they feel they are losing ground to it and become nothing whatseoever in the process.

I've seen a similar thing with Quakers, where they have been a vanguard of sorts for Progressive thinking for their entire existence and as the world becomes more Progressive the Quakers are irrelevant and dwindling down to nothing. They teach their kids universalist nonsense so surprise, surprise their children become nihilist liberals and never attend meeting. They have become so open minded their brains have fallen out, so to speak.

>>13504605
>Jesus Christ didn't believe in Jesus Christ
Retard.
>>13500263
>The Church basically cucked for socialists, communists, non-Christians, Jews, etc. in order to make itself more appealing and maintain relevance.
Most people who are active in the Church want to keep going this route. I wrote a paper detailing why the Church's modernization efforts will be disastrous and while they gave me good grades (I studies theology) the professor told me basically he didn't "agree" with me. My main point is that modernization will piss off the die-hard fans and turn them off, while also not attracting any new members. You'll see the Church accept homosexuality soon. It will piss off the trads and won't convince a single (openly) gay person to join the Church.

>>13500309
>the Church will experience a revival
lmao that's rich. The Church is focusing all her efforts on Africa and South America because they're the only Christians left. People in the first world don't believe in God anymore. So sure, enjoy your "revival", I guess.

The Church will modernize itself into irrelevance. Just another pro-gay pro-woman pro-immigrant pro-EU pro-globohomo organization like all the others.

>>13500312
Don't worry, there are SSPX bros here

>>13500326
>sedes are hellbound dopes
If you limit sedes to the Diamond brothers, yes. There are many other schools though, some that have quite interesting arguments that cannot be dismissed as easily as you think without sophistry.
I'm aware that a lot of sedes are quite dumb, but you cannot say that of all of them.
>and normietrads are smarter than you think.
Normietrad cope.

I'm sspx tho.

>>13504511
Why

>>13506238
i know they posit interesting arguments, but its not about arguments
its about their whole culture and mentality in general, they are fucked up in the head - 99% of scandals is them, just remember williamson sperg out, self appointed popes, schizo visions, pedo shielding etc etc.

>>13506260
second vatican council- thats a great representation what its about

>>13506272
I thought people were exaggerating when they compared Vatican II with Protestant reformation

>>13506443
imagine that but thoroughly encompassing every aspect of catholic faith and completely changing church establishment from uberreactionary to global establishment friendly

>>13506261
>99% of scandals is them
look at the current state of the Vatican though, not very shining t b h

>>13500937
Amen is hebrew anon.

I felt like the country priest again today. Sometimes people scowl at me for misinterpreted actions or intentions from ambiguities in place and circumstance. I try not to let it bother me. Qu'est-ce que cela fait? Tout est grâce.

What was America's involvement with Vatican II?

>Why Vatican II bad?
Why Vatican II bad?
Hint: Why Vatican II bad?

>>13506154
Jesus was Jewish. He spoke to Jews in terms of Jewish law. He is the Jewish Messiah. His name is Jewish.
The Church Fathers were all Jewish. "Christianity" didn't even exist until about 250 years after Jesus died.
I'm amazed your handler lets you use the internet.

>>13507283
Jesus was a heretic Jew though. Or if youre Christian he was the fulfillment of the Jewish prophecy, but Jews don't see him that way.

Being as Jesus is the literal incarnation of God it is a bit meaningless to call him Jewish or Christian

Why Vatican II bad?

>>13500270
They got rid of Latin mass. I'm on the fence on this issue because no one really understands Latin anymore and the reason it was Latin in the first place was because people could understand it.

>>13507293
The leadership of the major Jewish sects had lost their way, and Jesus showed them once more how to walk the path.
It's not meaningless to call him Jewish or Christian, because the terms have specific meaning. God is the Jewish God. His Law is the Jewish Law. You can't tie the Covenant any closer than that.
Jesus extended the Covenant to all who weren't Jewish, but the fact remains that it was a Jewish thing in the first place. All Christians are Jews of the so-called heretical sect, as you might put it.
(And depending on your beliefs, Jesus was either God, a prophet, a super smart rabbi philosopher, or didn't exist at all.)

>this thread
so many fucking meme reddit tier answers
honestly thought /lit/ was better

Vatican II changed nothing is absolutely right about everything.

>>13507345
But Jews don't view Christians or Jesus as a Jew, Jewishness is conferred by being born to a Jewish mother, outside of the few converts(i dont fully understand jewish views on conversion).

If Christ fulfilled the Jewish law then I think he transcends the old Jewish rules, he sets down new commandments literally from the mouth of God, so it makes sense to place him into a new category, even if it is one intimately connected with Jews and Judaism.

This all seems a bit superfluous as a disagreement in any case

>>13507323
Being in Latin meant that every Church all across the world would be celebrating the same exact Mass. A lot of parishes, at least in the United States, have multiple different Masses for different groups of people. For example there will be a Spanish or Filipino Mass. It groups people away from each other and makes Mass attendance seem smaller.
There are also other arguments for Latin, but I don't much about them or of Latin itself so I can't comment upon them.

Judging by this thread it seems like Catholics finally understand why Protestants exist.

>>13507400
They're even worse.

>>13507411
Well the critiques Luther had of the Catholic Church sure do mirror some of the critiques in this thread, e.g mad butthurt about where the Church is heading and the changing of dogma.

Why Vatican II bad?

>Changes and destroys the essence of the most important aspect of Christian life: the liturgy and Holy Eucharist.
>Na, it didn't change anything bro.

The true answer to fix everything is this:
Excommunicate the United States

>>13504511
which exact part of II would cause this? Is the something written about sterilizing churches?

>>13506154
>The Church will modernize itself into irrelevance. Just another pro-gay pro-woman pro-immigrant pro-EU pro-globohomo organization like all the others.

You lack faith.

>>13500881
>The Catholic church defends itself extremely poorly and apparently opts for suicide
it's my theory that they secretly wish they could go back to pagan Rome an get thrown to the lions, they long to be oppressed

>>13500343

My dna, yours is obviously not going to make it

>>13501007

Jews killed christ the roman boss washed his hands in innocence.
Nigger

>>13506154
>My main point is that modernization will piss off the die-hard fans and turn them off, while also not attracting any new members.

Out of curiosity, what is your opinion on acculturation. I also don't believe the Church should accept female or gay priests or anything like that, but the Church does have a long history of incorporating external practices in an attempt to expand itself. I would say the bulk of the global Church, in places like South East Asia and South America, practice a version of altered Catholicism made more 'relevant' to their pre-existing traditions and lifestyles. Where do you draw the line?

ITT:
>protestants and atheists use the same exact arguments against the Church and refuse to address any counterpoint proving the Council of Trent right and the 30 years war justified.
>sedevacantist retards cry crocodile tears
>progressists go "lol nobody is Christian in Europe" as counterpoint while talking to first world Christians
>DOGMAS WERE CHAAAAANGED!
>Ok which ones?
>LOL PEDOPHILE RETAAAAAARDS!
I long for the days of the crusades and the guidance of Saint Vlad Tepes.

Good idea
>Prepping a Papal bull

Bad idea
>Prepping the Papal bull