/lit/ - Literature

>>13466909
>is meditation /trad/?
hindus/vedantins do yoga which essentially entails various forms of meditation.
Unless you're autistic about the word itself "meditation," then it's /trad/ if done in a traditional context ie not secularized nonsense

How do I get started on Islam?

I have a blog vaguely based on a traditionalist weltanschauung, if you guys want to weigh in on it. I haven’t posted in a while, but there is some more potentially quite interesting content coming up, particularly if you are interested in Evola’s notion of fashioning a law for oneself.
https://juanfitzcarraldo.wordpress.com/

>>13467013
Sachiko Murata and William Chittick’s book “Vision of Islam”

>>13466909
> dings finger cymbals
Metaphysics

>>13467005
Are you arguing from first principles or is that direct from Guenon or Evola? I'm sure Evola would be down with just starting meditation on your own, but ~150 pages into Perspectives on Initiation I'm less sure about Guenon, unless you've been initiated into it.

Okay we can disagree over the relative merits of Guenon vs. Evola, but can we all at least agree that Schuon is shit tier?

>>13467297
Do you need to be initiated into drinking water, eating, sleeping, bathing, and walking? Nonsense. Mediation is a tangible practice with immediate benefits. There may be specific forma of meditation that require initiation, just as there are special ritual uses of food and liquid (Eucharist), of sleeping (shamanistic lucid dreaming practices), ritual bathing (baptism) etc. Meditation on its own can be done by anyone irrespective of any traditional affiliation whatsoever

>>13467308
>but can we all at least agree that Schuon is shit tier?
That's what I often think, but then sometimes I take a look at his writing and am pleasantly surprised. Certainly in terms of his behavior he was a wacko, but he was also very smart and knew his eastern literature

bump

I’ve heard Evola was supportive of the practice of wife burning on the pyre. If this is true, what was his justification? Was it simply the idea that it was traditional and that tradition should be emphasized over individual rights?

>>13467853
I think he said basically that he admires the magnanimity and nobility of the gesture. Modern women would never do even 1/1,000,000 of that to demonstrate their dutifulness to their husbands, but women of that era/culture would throw away their lives in a heartbeat. I’m paraphrasing, but I vaguely remember him praising it for reasons like that. Could be my memory’s fucked.

>>13466909
will traditionalism give me superpowers
did guenon manage to get any or witness anyone having them?
how come old traditionalists were always doing supernatural feats?

>>13467892
someone post the screenshot of guenon’s story with the sufi master in the ravine

>>13467897
i've read that but i want more

>>13467853
>individual rights
read more

>>13467898
read paul chacornac’s biography of guenon it’s really short

>>13467889
I could see that were it voluntary. I assumed it was forced on women but I really don’t know much about the practice.

Deep acts of sacrifice really do make an impression, and I could also admire such a deep commitment to one’s ideals (and possibly to one’s partner).

>>13467899
Sorry I’m not sure what you mean?

>>13467901
i can't the fag language

>>13467902
im pretty sure it was voluntary. also don’t forget for a non-materialistic and non-atheistic society death is not something to fear. it is the absence of life, and an absence being a negative is nothing. death does not exist.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9a8YL_vwlsY

>>13467909
it exists in english translation

>>13467906
Traditionalism is strongly opposed to Enlightenment era principles.

>>13467928
That’s why I asked what his reasoning was. Obviously i know Evola and Traditionalism in general isn’t concerned with “humanism”, that’s what I was trying to contrast

>>13467308
>Schuon is shit
why? are you scandalized by what his enemies have to say about him?

>>13467962
the vertical wives thing is known to be true beyond any reasonable doubt and so are the nude amerindian rituals

perennialism is retarded because all the world religions contradict one another.

them having similarities doesn't mean they come from a central common god

these religions were made up by men and men have common experiences across cultures. this explains the similarities

>>13467983
>perennialism is retarded because all the world religions contradict one another.
this is the most basic bitch argument against perennialism that has been refuted countless times, it’s not even worth trying anymore

perennial philosophy is kind of multi-culturalism applied to the realm of religion

this is why i don't really get why a right-winger could be a perennialist. your saying that foreign religious traditions are just as valid as the religious tradition that you grew up in.

>>13468010

you're*

>>13468010
listen kiddo, on /lit/ people actually read books, this isn't r/thedonald

>>13467975
Nudity isn't inherently wrong nor is dressing up in amerindian clothes, as for the rituals, they are only a vehicle for symbolism which isn't necessarily attached to any particular worldview especially a non-dogmatic or purely metaphysical religion such as the amerindians. As for the vertical wives thing, I can;t find anything on what it actually entails.

>>13468020
nudity and amerindian rituals are inherently wrong for someone that claims to be a muslim shaykh

>>13466909
Accelerationist futurism > traditionalism

>>13468072
>As to the question of the “Primordial gatherings” that form the basis of much of Mr. Ringgenberg’s criticism of Schuon. Can it be said that Schuon claimed that the introduction of the “Primordial gatherings” constituted a new religion? No. In fact they were not intended as rituals but were allowed by Schuon to honour the visits of the Crow Medicine Man and close friend of Schuon, Thomas Yellowtail.107 Certain people close to Schuon have revealed that these Red Indian celebrations were permitted on the strict understanding that they were recreational, not ritual in intent.108 Schuon never apparently intended these pow-wows to be understood as ritualistic or part of his “method”, and he was apparently very upset when he heard how some people regarded them.
http://timothyscott.com.au/Assets/pdfs/Religious_forms.pdf

>>13468133
lawyer’s prattle

>>13468090
t. “man in Time”

>>13468144
perhaps, but personally I think it would be wiser to judge him by his writings not by his actions

>>13468144
>I’m too stupid to hear a refutation of my claim

ftfy and I literally don’t give a shit if you think Schuon is a bad guy or whatever i just hate lazy discourse

>>13468201
why would you take lawyer’s prattle seriously? it’s so incredibly naive
>>13468193
i didn’t like his writing before i ever heard about these controversies

I read Hero with thousand faces and jordan piterson maps of meaning, am i perennial traditionalist now?

>>13468435
no, you’re a psychological reductionist. congratulations

>>13466909
Hi Myrmex how are you

is there a place other than /lit/ were one can discuss perennialism in relative peace?

>>13468733
There was this forum but it's been dead for a while but there it has got some good resources..

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/traditionalstudies/

>>13467013

Cut off your foreskin obviously.
Trying to understand the holy quran while your mind is still under possesion of the evil predipuce of your sexual organ is pointless.
If you want to understand allah, praise be upon him, you must be cut like our jewish forebears taught us.

>>13468151
>reading some currychasers novels.

Seriously though what answer does traditionalism have for runaway technology and capital accumulation?

>>13468090
Only if it results in swift and utter totality. Everything else is just a self-perpetuating meme.

>>13467906
There is no such thing as an individual. Sacks of meat have no rights, even if animated.

What the hell is "traditionalism" anyway? I mean on the face of it it should mean localism/hierarchy by deeds (the nobility were successful warriors) but now it means some weird Eastern Philosophy way of life bs?

>>13469254
You sound like a retarded.

>>13469254
Just a bunch of covert new age fags who cling to eastern religions because they are the only surviving (in practice) pre-abrahamic religions.

>>13468090
Tradition is an expression of acceleration as it represents an evolutionary adaptation derived from the same principle as Capitalism and all other selection, down to cosmological selection. Where Capital is a level-agnostic expression of this selective principle, Tradition is an expression of it when applied to societies.

I suspect evola is just autistic mystical bullshit that /pol/tards like because they've been told he's "their guy"

>>13469297
Is preindustrial tradition relevant to postindustrial society? Not hating just a curious non traditionalist.

>>13468010
perennialism is not syncretism

How would you pick a religion to follow?

>>13469321
Personally I would say so. Again, if you see it as group adaptation it makes a lot more sense. Some human evolutionary features are also extremely outdated, but a lot of them are still useful.

>>13469334
Just pick Daoism and stick shit on top of you want to. It's arguably consistent with Physics and all other religions.

What flavor of Islam is Rene talking about when he brings up all this esoteric stuff about it in Man and His Becoming?

>>13468151
based savitri devi poster

>>13469358
I see to much nonsense behavior out in the world to believe in the effectiveness of human instinct or old social principles.

>>13469396
It's not necessarily effective - it only needs to be competitive. Many parts of human anatomy are dogshit, but that doesn't mean they didn't evolve , e.g. the placement of the prostate. Evolution is not engineering.

>>13469414
Can someone give me some hints about how traditional social organization could be competitive today? I have a friend who is some kind of traditionalist. He makes claims like "fascism is the most efficient economic system" (is fascism even traditionalist?) and "women in the workforce lower absolute economic output". I find a lot of those claims strange and hard to understand. Maybe he's a poor representative of the ideas.

>>13469495
Well, as a very basic example, large numbers of unmarried were historically predictive of violence, often on a mass scale. Also, marriage as an institution is extremely old and developed independently in multiple geographically remote peoples.

Actually almost every social norm is an adaptation. That's why the anti-trad shit that's happening now is extremely dangerous.

>>13469554
*unmarried men

>>13469554
I guess my main claim is that the adaptations are for a different environment and the mismatch is too much to overcome. In that specific case I don't see how any reasonable level of social chaos could waste all the gains from a doubling in total workers. I also see the global dominance of capitalism as evidence against any other system. Maybe even the idea of social organization isn't so useful anymore.
I'm mostly trying to get a better idea of what this space is. I can certainly see the humanist argument for returning to a more natural environment where our instincts are in line with what is useful.

>“The Western liberal model says: You want to oppose us? Please, you have the right; but, look: you will not want to give your washing machine back, right? The washing machine is the absolute argument of the supporters of progress. After all, every one wants a washing machine – Black people, native peoples, conservatives and orthodox...”
>“If one thinks about the metaphysics of the washing machine, to what extent it is coupled with the real values of a philosophical system, one will be able to come to the conclusion that in general, human life is possible, and perhaps even has the potential to be entirely happy, without the washing machine.”
can the Trad defeat the washing machine?

>>13469616
Well I am not trying to relate marriage and women being able to work. You may very well be right, maybe Globalism will win and inter-society competition is a thing of the past, but I highly doubt that. Also, if we end up with an all-inclusive society, the interpersonal competition will be so harsh, you'll be wishing for war.

>mfw reading all these butthurt "t-traditionalism is multiculturalism, orientalism, syncrectism, heresy etc!!!!" posts

cry more faggots

>>13469625
>can the Trad defeat the washing machine?
Yes, we'll just go back to pic related. That'll give females something to do instead of wasting their time with frivolous and immorality-promoting social media bullshit, a win-win situation

>>13469297
How does this apply when everything now happens on the global scale? You have to literally go full North Korea.

>>13469232
wtf is a materialist doing in a trad thread?

>>13469396
>effectiveness of human instinct

Its no surprise, as humans are nothing more than (self-) domesticated cattle. All they do is bark a lot, rut and piss&shit everywhere.

>>13469756
lewd

>>13469786
Not everything. And you're right - an NK-like scenario is actually possible. What's more likely is an ultra-competitive, zero-trust society with only absolute minimal norms. We're on our way there actually, but there's still a couple of factors slowing the process down.

>>13469859
One world, third world!

Are there any english translations of the fourth political theory

>>13469232
Big cringe. Misanthropy is a meme.

>>13469625
No. Even some Amish communities have started using washing machines.

>>13469304
Not bullshit, but mystical, and definitely not regarded correctly by the meme right.

>>13469368
Mostly Sufism, especially Sufi thinkers like Ibn Arabi. Sufism is largely but not exclusively a Sunni phenomenon, especially in the modern era.

>>13470254
I think the Shia equivalent is called Irfan

>>13469804
>muh materialism boogeyman

Nice refutation. I was just paraphrasing the general talking point of anti-individualists in a more concise and direct manner, devoid of the usual sentimental drivel.

>>13470150
Misanthropy is too narrow of a description, my stance is active death affirmation.

>>13470291
>Misanthropy is too narrow of a description, my stance is active death affirmation.
death doesn't exist
https://youtu.be/9a8YL_vwlsY

What are some traditionalist books dealing specifically with Orthodoxy Christianity?

>>13470340
There's a guy called James Cutsinger who is a perennialist and Orthodox Christian, but I don't think he has a book on the subject. He has some lectures on youtube and a blog. I would skip him though, he gives me the creeps. One of those Schuonian perennialists. Check out Seraphim Rose instead, he's an ex-traditionalist though. He was greatly influenced by Guenon, but went all out with Orthodox Christianity and left perennialism behind. Kallistos Ware has a book called the Orthodox Way that has a lot of crypto-perennialist tendencies in it, you might want to look at that as well.

>>13470364
Oh, also there's a book called Christ the Eternal Tao written by a student and fellow monk of Seraphim Rose.

>>13469738
The trads have a point, given they "inverted time" everything seem like a degradation of the idyllic source, in that perspective the religion of today seem like shards of a once unified truth, thats why look like syncretism for the outsider, given their perspective, that we undoubtebly approach the future walking backwards, with a ever blurring past, but I think the idea that we aren't moving at all -that the we aren't far from the source nor the future creep from behind- is seductive, which also appears to be case given recent discoveries on the nature of time

>>13470738
>the idea that we aren't moving at all -that the we aren't far from the source
that is also a traditional idea. the center is omnipresent. the All is a circle whose center is everywhere and whose circumference is nowhere

>>13469903
yes
https://nationalpost.com/news/toronto/university-of-toronto-controversially-awards-doctorate-translator-of-sanctioned-russian-neo-fascist

>>13469903
i think Dugin is literally censored by the US government for this role on the Ukraine crisis stuff, but Arktos publishes The Fourth Political Theory and there are ebook editions like here in Barnes & Noble
https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/the-fourth-political-theory-alexander-dugin/1112170155?ean=9781912975075

but not sure if it's blocked in burgerland, anyway you can find PDFs online

>>13470340
maybe the Noomakhia series
by Dugin has some notes on Orthodox Christianity, though it's more Heideggerian even if it has Traditionalist influences. Probably not translated from Ruski though. But there's this video by him:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqfgXLTcOak&list=PLsDWunul1uS_-BR3BTxRgROHPP1K-rfDo&index=4

>>13466909
newfag question:
What is the purpose of reading the Traditionalists? Why not just pick a proper religious tradition and stick to it? Is there something special about a Traditionalist approach? Does Traditionalism as expounded by Guenon and Evola enhance one's practice/path?

>>13466909
is race-mixing with an Arab Egyptian woman /trad/?

>>13471160
islam doesn’t place any importance on ethnicity, so in that context yes

>>13471124
because the traditionalists emphasize the esoteric and metaphysical aspects of those traditions whereas nowadays most people get stuck in exoteric and sentimental understandings. anyone that isn’t a brainlet basically has no choice but to either adopt the traditionalist stance or reject religion altogether as something fit only for women and children

>>13471213
imo the esoteric aspects of Eastern religions are for the most part alive and well independent of Traditionalism
I can see your point though when applied to the Abrahamic religions

>>13471284
well yeah, guenon says that strictly speaking eastern religions don’t have esoterism, they just teach metaphysics openly

>>13466909
Is the regular insulting of Buddhism a meme or is it a legitimate tradition (even Theravada) in the eyes of Traditionalism? Is the difference between Nirvana and Brahman or 'The One' merely shallow semantics, or is Buddhism as described in the Pali Canon really a useless subversion of the eternal Tradition?

So do you guys believe in evolution? I ask because Nasr, a prominent perennialist Sufi, is anti-Darwin and anti-evolution. Some others are as well.

>>13470748
Yes the Lenape concentric circles right -but here's the deal- ,if an all-pervading one which its understanting only requires a single mental movement (or that is, movement in its negation, a cartesian stillnes), how then justify all those hierarchichal top-down orders?

>>13471441
No, I don’t believe in evolution. I also don’t believe that a being called God went poof and animals magically appeared, so as far as the origin of life my only answer is “beats me”.

>>13471466
What religious tradition do you adhere to?

>>13471469
None. I subscribe to Evola’s view that the outward traditions are practically nullified in contemporary conditions.

>>13471475
Evola was right about that and the current trends of Islam prove it. Sufism won't exist in 20 years. Becoming a Sufi puts your life at risk because the Sunni plebs think you're a kuffar. They're not exactly wrong, read Ibn Arabi and you can see he comes dangerously close to heterodoxy. Guenon would be the victim of a terrorist attack were he alive today.

>>13471550
what about the Indian traditions (and Tibetan I suppose)? Are they going to shit?

>>13471550
I disagree about that. I have a lot of Muslim friends and associates and have studied the issue. Sufism will triumph, and Salafism will fall. Salafism is becoming increasingly despised among Muslims, they are gonna be out probably within the next thirty years. However, this Sufism that will triumph will be a washed down diluted Sufism that has mainstream appeal. Terrorism and extremism are becoming increasingly unfashionable among the cast majority of Muslims, and that’s good, but the middling bourgeois Islam that will replace it will be just as spiritually harmful, though not as dangerous to our physicality.

>>13471588
I come from a Muslim background in a country with a long history of Sufism (hint: Guenon moved there). None of them take Sufism seriously, even if they don't hate it. It's irrelevant. I'm not implying that terrorism is the norm in Muslim countries, only that Sufism is irrelevant and Guenon is wrong about the exoteric/esoteric distinction. He was simply high on opium.

>>13471475
So what now?

>>13471766
>rigorously demonstrable metaphysics wrong because man ingest poppy based substance!

>>13471793
Be disciplined, know your values, hold your feet on the ground, don’t give in. That is sufficient.

>>13471576
>what about the Indian traditions (and Tibetan I suppose)? Are they going to shit?
You can't fully join an Indic tradition without being a caste Hindu (which is impossible for a Westerner) or a Buddhist tradition without being a monk (which is undesirable for most Westerners). Sufism is rapidly disappearing, Freemasonry, although a rotted husk of its former self, remains an open way.

>>13471766
https://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2018/07/egyptian-millenials-turn-to-sufism.html

>>13471818
>You can't fully join an Indic tradition without being a caste Hindu
Wrong. there are a number of traditions that are not caste based such as Tantra

>>13471833
>>You can't fully join an Indic tradition without being a caste Hindu
>Wrong. there are a number of traditions that are not caste based such as Tantra
True, but it's nigh impossible to find a valid traditional Tantric initiator (who isn't a sex pervert and/or con man).

>>13471846
That’s true, won’t even disagree with that.

>another retarded thread on retarded traditionalism
when will OP learn that spiritual accelerationism is the answer?

>>13471818
>>what about the Indian traditions (and Tibetan I suppose)? Are they going to shit?
>You can't fully join an Indic tradition without being a caste Hindu (which is impossible for a Westerner) or a Buddhist tradition without being a monk (which is undesirable for most Westerners).

Not quite true. Japanese Mahayana traditions don't force celibacy. You could become a priest in e.g. Tendai and still have a thicc waifu.

>>13471804
He saw what he wanted in Islam. The orthodoxy of Sufism is debateable. And of the Sufis even fewer would admit to Guenon's crypto-Vedantism.

>>13471826
Article is behind a paywall.

>>13471927
sufism is metaphysically orthodox, it doesn’t matter if it’s orthodox according to the standards of aqidah

>13471935

What do you mean crypto-Vedantism?

I just started reading Man according to the Vedānta as I wanted to read up on Guenon. Is he worth reading more?

I'm reading pic related and the pages 36 and 37 are missing and I can't find the integral book online. Please could any of you post them?

>>13472073
I would gladly but i have a different edition so i don’t think the pages would align. pretty sure it’s also a different translation

>>13472073
I got you.

>>13472281
many thanks anon!!

>>13472114
out of curiosity, what is your edition?

>>13472438

>>13466909
how can anybody have eyes that sit this high in his face ?

>>13468010
All religions are just the remnant empires of the elder races. Modern incarnations of those races, and the religions they follow, do not retrospectively degrade the quality of their teachings.

>>13472739
anon...I'd reveal some esoteric secrets to you...can we go somewhere a little more private

>>13468090
>buuih just accelerate the process :)
how? do accelerationists think that humanity is some sort of ship that can be sped up or slowed down by simple acts? human culture is a matrix of interconnected actions, thoughts and phenomena, not some linear structure that you can shunt along until you get your desired outcome.

>>13472469
nice, i hadn't seen this edition before

Guys, if I made a semi complete least of all the ways you can get initiated without either being born into the religion or going celibate, would anyone be interested?

>>13472952
you mean list? sure. we need more oc contributions in these threads

>>13472952
least = list

>>13472768

>>13467013
The Koran.

Isn't there any discord server devoted to traditionalism and traditions? Someone should create one.

>>13473146
we don't use discord we communicate telepathically

>>13471818
>You can't fully join an Indic tradition without being a caste Hindu
That's wrong, it's more difficult than Islam but there are various ways. That's just become a meme that people uncritically repeat without looking into it themselves, people like Schuon repeat it in their books because they want you to become muslim too. In reality, as diverse a religion and culture Hinduism is there is accordingly as many diverse ways of entering it. It's possible for a non-Indian to aquire a caste-status by being ceremonially adopted into an Indian family, there are orthodox rituals for this process, this is not very common but if you move to India, marry into a family and are close with them it's not that hard to achieve. Secondly, the main group that Guenon would consider to have the pinnacle of 'metaphysical' teachings would most likely be the Dashnami Sampradaya, they are one of the largest monastic organizations in India and they trace their lineage to Shankaracharya and they dont have any caste requirements but will initiate anyone who seriously is willing to become an ascetic along with them (Guenon did not want to became a full-on ascetic though). As the other anon mentioned much of Tantra and tantric teachers don't have this requirment either. There are also many smaller Hindu sects that reject the caste system and who accept anyone. The sects of Ayyavazhi and Lingyatism both largely or fully reject the caste system and accept outsiders. Lingyatism in particular is a Shaivite tradition which is very close to Advaita in its metaphysics and they are known to accept conversions of people from any religion or social status. Lastly you have Vedanta and Vedic study centers in the west in big cities staffed by Swamis who are happy to teach anyone who shows up.

>>13473846
Quality post. This is what I hope to see in these threads. I've always found the Schuonian knee jerk response to people querying about Hinduism to be extremely cringe.

>>13473846
I actually screencapped some posts about this from a now inactive trad forum

>>13473873

So what do traditionalists view as the after life?
What society in the past best reflects the traditionalist ideal?
When and where was the Golden Age?
What sort of practicality does Traditionalism have? What is to be done?

>>13473926
>So what do traditionalists view as the after life?
They definitely believe in it. It's simply a different state of the being after you have shed your corporeality. It is still possible, according to Guenon, to work toward final liberation from this state.
>What society in the past best reflects the traditionalist ideal?
From recorded history? It depends which traditionalist we have in mind. For most I would say ancient India, because they're doctrine was considered most complete and the most diverse in order to suit people of various types. Evola might say Rome, but I'm not sure.
>When and where was the Golden Age?
None of the Traditionalists offer an actual chronology. The one serious attempt I've seen at providing reasonable dates comes from non-traditionalist Alain Danielou who was a practicing Shaivist. His book While the Gods Play gives actual figures. I think he said the Golden Age was about 58,000 years ago according to various Shaiva purana texts.
>What sort of practicality does Traditionalism have? What is to be done?
Depends who you ask. Evola says exoteric traditions are basically nullified and ineffective in our age. Most traditionalists say that you should join a "valid" tradition and seek an initiation into a complementary initiatic organization of some kind.

>>13473968
>. I think he said the Golden Age was about 58,000 years ago according to various Shaiva purana texts.
Weren't we cavemen then?

>>13471818
Shankara explicitly rejected the caste system in the Upadesasahasari and the Manisha Panchakam. Ergo, no Vedantin monastery or organization can turn you away on the basis of being an outcaste.

>>13474008
There are a large number of reasons to be skeptical of the claims of historians regarding human prehistory

>>13474017
the smarta tradition (shankara's sect) doesnt accept converts, although Vaishnavism, shaktism, and saivism do.

>>13474020
I always sort of figured that. Has anyone wrote about a falisified pre history?

>>13474056
>tfw when i wrote a long ass response to this post and lost it because my phone is stupid and gay
god damn it im not writing that again

>>13471432
according to early Guenon Buddhism was a warrior caste (Kshatriya), for Evola it was legitimate, and i think Ananda Coomaraswamy convinced Guenon at some point that Buddhism was legitimate, though some people have criticized him for trying to make Buddhism just like Hinduism in disguise rejecting or adapting the seemingly incompatible elements

>Is the difference between Nirvana and Brahman or 'The One' merely shallow semantics
depends which elements of Buddhism you emphasize, you can argue that Buddhism has a different metaphysics, or you can argue that the Buddha emphasized the elements of practice and thought that lead to spiritual realization which at times means ignoring metaphysical explanations in favor of practices that lead to direct vision and realization, but the result may be the same

then again there are passages like this in Buddhist scripture
>https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.8.03.irel.html
>There is, bhikkhus, a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned. If, bhikkhus, there were no not-born, not-brought-to-being, not-made, not-conditioned, no escape would be discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned. But since there is a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned, therefore an escape is discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned.
that i don't think can be easily hand-wave away

>>13474157
>>13471432
meant to write
>a warrior-caste (Kshatriya) deviation from tradition

>>13471588
a small very intolerant minority always beats a big tolerant majority in the long term. we see this everywhere
>https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dictatorship-of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15
t. based arab

>>13473146
when you join a discord server you always get a mandatory estrogen shot, that's not very Trad

>>13473846
is the guy on the right legit?

>>13474008
it's hard to know about old people unless they built buildings or created tools using nonperishable materials

>>13474207
he has links to ISKCON which is a organisation of Gaudiya Vaishnavism which is a orthodox denomination within Hinduism, so I would say yes. I think this is the Guru who initiated him: https://gosai.com/writings/srila-br-sridhar-maharaja-biographical-sketch

>traditionalism
I cannot think of a more retarded joke than traditionalism. Oh wait yes I can, the multitude of voluntary virgins shitposting on an anime forum to feel good about their 'supramundane' traditionalist worldview.

Why don't you idiots move to India or Algeria if you're so invested into this farce? Of course you won't, you're too attached to the materialism of the west to even think about treading along the path Al-Wahid Yahya has set for you. How else would you circle jerk in a literature board without fibre optic internet?

You guys are an embarrassment and so is traditionalism. Unironically shoot yourselves.

>>13474315
based cope

>>13466909
I'm sorry Evola I cant tide the tiger, its too depressing
I went in to Uni today and I was just bombarded with modernity the whole day, I feel like its helpless

>>13472952
Very much so

>>13474315
based and materialist-pilled

>>13473873
>>13473882
Thanks for this

>>13467013
your local sleeper cells

>>13474310
>ISKCON
>Orthodox
u wot?

>>13474855
do you have a argument?

>>13474862
It's a very modern sect of Hinduism that only sees growth in the West by actively seeking out converts, whereas the other schools of Hinduism do not. Not to mention all the shady activity you would expect from a cult.

>>13474874
Plus it's bhakti, which is mysticism at best, and not at all initiatic.

>>13474409
Too much Sun, too little Lightning. Stop being weak.

>>13474017
Shankara did not reject the caste system. When he writes about rejecting ideas of caste in those works and similar ones he is exclusively addressing his fellow people who have renounced everything and become a sannyasa, traveling possessionless ascetics. Part of that process and the instruction one undergoes as part of it is realizing that all difference and multiplicity including caste, gender, one's physical body etc are unreal and are superimposed by ignorance on the Self. Elsewhere in his works Shankara defends the institution of caste. With regard to people who haven't become ascetics he still considered it proper for them to follow the caste rules as laid out by the Vedas and smritis like the Manusmriti etc. It's similar to how Shankara rejected ritual as a means to liberation but still wrote anyway that people who are not ready to become a sannyasin should still follow and carry out the orthodox practices regarding rituals. Abandoning rules/practices concerning caste and rituals in his view are ONLY for those who become a sannyasa.

In Shankara's bhasya on Brihadaranyaka 4.4.22. he writes that the three upper castes (Brahmins, Kshatriyas and the Vaishyas) are equally entitled to the study of the Vedas (but not the Shudras), and in his bhasya on Brihadaranyaka 4.5.15. he goes further as says that it is only the Brahmins who are entitled to the monastic life and not the Kshatriyas and the Vaishyas, despite them being allowed to study the Vedas and carry out rituals. In his bhasya on the Brahma Sutras 1.3.34-1.3.38 he comments on and agrees with the Sutras when they say that Shudras are disqualified from the study of the Vedas, although Shankara adds in his bhasya on 1.3.38 that Shudras can still acquire knowledge of Brahman from the Puranas and the Itihasas; the Ramayana and Mahabharata (which along with the Puranas contain all sorts of spiritual teachings and discussions of Atma/Brahman). Additionally, in his commentary on the Bhagavad-Gita he talks about how Jnana-Yoga (the path of knowledge and renunciation) is meant for Brahmins but that the lower castes can still attain liberation through Karma-Yoga and Bhakti-Yoga because they lead indirectly to knowledge of Brahman. The combination of all these comments leads to the view that it is the Brahmans that are meant to become sannyasa but that the lower castes (except Shudras) can still study the Vedas, and that all of the castes including Shudras can still indirectly reach liberation in a single life through other paths besides Jnana-Yoga. Plus, Vedanta accepts that people who do well spiritually are born in other lives or heavenly realms where liberation is easier to attain due to the circumstances of that birth. The Dashnami Sampradaya differs from Shankara slightly in not having caste requirements for initiation into monasticism but this isn't a serious problem for various reasons.

>>13471124
>Does Traditionalism as expounded by Guenon and Evola enhance one's practice/path?
yes, especially if you read through all the thinkers and texts they reference

>>13471124
>newfag question:
>Why not just pick a proper religious tradition and stick to it?

Guenon makes a threefold distinction among the mystical, the religious and the initiatic. Just being a devout Sunni or Catholic can get you into the first two realms but not the third. The initiatic is its own domain and, Guenon argues, the highest of the paths.

> Does Traditionalism as expounded by Guenon and Evola enhance one's practice/path?

I think Guenon alerts you to the existence of paths you never considered.

>>13476581
What's the clear distinction between the Initiatic and Mystical path?

>>13476720
Mysticism is passive, you merely experience higher realities and then descend back down to your own conditioned state. Initiatic path bridges the divide between subject and object, between knowing and being. You literally become the various higher states you attain in your spiritual ascent. They are not separate from you, merely visions and experiences as with tye mystic.

>>13477007
I've reached that state during an Ayahuasca journey, wherein I experienced ego-death and union with the all. I experienced pure love and this brought me back towards religion and the such.

This state was not accomplished through an initiation with a teacher though. I have a very limited knowledge of the vocabulary that is used here but I'd call it a mystic experience, although it confirms to what you'd call the initiatic path.

Could you define it more clearly for me? Thanks in advance

>>13477222
It's pretty clear. In one you rise to higher states of consciousness which often present themselves as sensible experiences. In the other you changer your very being in a permanent and ineffable way. One involves the mind and emotions, mostly. The other involves the intellect/spirit.

>>13474157
>you can argue that Buddhism has a different metaphysics, or you can argue that the Buddha emphasized the elements of practice and thought that lead to spiritual realization which at times means ignoring metaphysical explanations in favor of practices that lead to direct vision and realization, but the result may be the same
Buddhists only care about praxis, but why does the Tripitaka has to be tens of thousands of pages, when the Prasthanatrayi including their bhasya discusses praxis as well as metaphysics, and manages to do to it in only 4,000-5,000 pages? Were Buddhists so retarded they couldn't concisely lead someone to Nirvana, even when they dropped all the metaphysical explanation?

>>13477222
Edit: last post had a bunch of typos, here

It's pretty clear. In one you rise to higher states of consciousness which often present themselves as sensible experiences, and afterwards return to you conditioned state as a mere individual being. In the other you change your very being in a permanent and ineffaceable way. One involves the mind (psyche/manas) and emotions, mostly. The other involves the intellect/spirit/buddhi.

>>13472739

>>13477470
he looks strangely mousey and squeeky in this picture

>>13477239
The Tipitaka was passed down through verbal recitation before writing was widely introduced to Indians.
The Buddha simply did not have the means to concisely write down his teachings, so he had to give individual sermons based on every question or dialogue brought to him (like a teacher even in modern times), which his followers would memorize word-for-word.

>>13477543
>>13477239
on the bright side, the more deep and complex Buddhist teachings were put to text in a coherent and comprehensive system with Nagarjuna's early Madhyamaka.
Shankara said that Madhyamaka was the closest school to original Buddhism, which he hardly had any issues with.

>>13477562
>Shankara said that Madhyamaka was the closest school to original Buddhism, which he hardly had any issues with.
No he didn't lol, do you have a source for that?

>>13468090
why not both?

Below is a list of ways for traditionalists to get initiated without being born into a religion or becoming celibate, based on my reading of Guenon's Perspectives on Intitiation.

> But anon, do I have to get intitiated?
Only if you are interested in the initiatic path. If you're interested in the (exoteric) religious path or the path of the mystic, there's no need to get initiated, and in fact, it may even be harmful. But the initiatic path is the highest and most reliable path.

> What is initiation?
Initiation is the transmission of spiritual influence within a regular, hierarchic organization that goes back to a 'non-human' source. Solitary experiences, however profound, are not intiatic by definition. Groups that practice 'initiations' but go back to historic human founders are mere 'societies' and not initiatic - they many even be counter-initiatic. Initiatic groups either have hazy origins, like the Freemasons, or else go back to a quasi-divine founder. Inititiation is once and for all; once you are made a Mason or a Tendai priest or whatever, you are one for life. You can demit from your lodge or temple but you still bear the indelible mark. Because this is the Kali Yuga, many of an organization's initiates may be 'virtual' - "just going through the motions" - but the spiritual influence is still there.

Oh and initiation can't be something that is offered to all equally, like baptism or taking refuge in the triple jewel. It has to be something reserved for a select few.

> Okay, so how do I get initiated?
You have to stop being a porky autist and get involved with actual other humans.

> Islam: Sufism
The most obvious, since Guenon himself went for it at the end. And if you have the balls to convert to fucking Islam, probably the most reliable. The problem is, interest in sufism is much greater among Westerners than it is among mudslimes, so most US sufi circles are run by, say, a husband and wife team of psychotherapists. Who are Jewish, of course. Discernment is important here. The Naqshbandi order has a reputation for being fairly orthodox (based Erdogan is a member) so that might be a good place to start.

> Islam: Irfan
Rounding out our treatment of Islamic esotericism, we come to the Shiite tradition of Irfan. This is very secret (Shiites are very good at keeping secrets) and doesn't even have an adequate Wikipedia page. There's a pretty good book called Mantle of the Prophet that describes Irfan in a novelistic way. So, you'd have to join a Shiite mosque, build trust, and ask around about Irfan quietly. I know I'm expecting unusually high levels of non-autism from you in this post, but even that being understood, this is probably a bridge too far. Still, it's a pretty based tradition so I wanted to include it.

1/2

> Chistianity: Eastern Orthodox
So generally Christianity doesn't do initiation. It has sacraments for joining and becoming an adult member of the Church, but notionally those should be taken by everyone, so they're not initiation per the above. The exception would be ordination, but we don't want to be celibate or full-time clergy. (Guenon I think has some kind of argument for why holy orders aren't initiation, but let's pretend for a moment like he doesn't). Eastern Orthodoxy, unlike modern Roman Catholicism, has minor orders. So if you're a reader/lector, you're ordained as such, rather than it being just a lay office as in post-V2 Catholicism. So, convert to Orthodoxy, get asked to be a reader because no one else wants the job, bam: you're initiated.

> Judaism
If you're seriously interested in converting to Judaism I'm going to assume you're not on 4chan, so I won't bother writing this section.

> Buddhism
Guenon didn't have a high opinion of Buddhism, and most branches would seem not to be too promising for initiation. Theravada has taking refuge in the triple jewel (which we've already seen doesn't count) and monk-ordination (which requires celibacy) so those are out. Tibetan Buddhism transmits tantras, but so far as I'm aware that's primarily to monks; so that's out. But many Japanese Buddhist sects have an esoteric dimension and married priests. If there's a Shingon or Tendai temple near you, I'd check it out. Just stay away from Soka Gakkai and "lay Buddhist fellowships."

> Sikhism/Zoroastrianism/Mandaeanism/Jainism
All based religions but they are not going to initiate you.

> Hinduism
The problem with Hinduism is, despite having the Advaita goods you crave, the main stream of the faith is exactly like the religions described above. You have no chance unless you are a caste Hindu. That means you'd have to seek out a marginal or sectarian group, which is to say, you'd have to join a cult. But there are cults and there are cults. Some may force you to eat your own babies, others may overcharge you slightly for (valid) intitiation into some Tantric mantras. Like Transcendental Meditation. Which is big and you could join pretty much anywhere. And David Lynch is even an initiate. Undervalued commodity imho. There may be other options under the Hindu banner, too. But look closely at lineage and whether they offer actual initiations or just lessons.

> Freemasonry

It's a valid line of spiritual transmission. It's legit according to Guenon, at least when he was writing Perspectives on Initiation. It's cheap and widespread. In many ways it's the best option on this list. The problem is, it's practically all 'virtual' initiates, and you'll have to make smalltalk with boring old men. You won't learn any cool metaphysics or meditation techniques. Still, an option to consider.


> Martinism/Rosicrucianism/Templar orders

All fake according to Guenon.


> OTO/A.'.A.'./other Thelemic orders

Lol no

2/2

>>13477898
>Naqshbandi
US Naqshabandi have a ton of Jewish converts. Just FYI.

>>13477904
>>Naqshbandi
>US Naqshabandi have a ton of Jewish converts. Just FYI.
Lol can't escape it.

>>13477898
>>13477901
What options are the there for us who don't mind holding vows of celibacy?

>>13478016
>What options are the there for us who don't mind holding vows of celibacy?
I was using celibacy as a stand in for "celibacy, living in a community, being poor, having no job etc." If you're willing to do all that, you could become a Christian or Buddhist monk, and maybe types of Hindu renunciant. The sky's the limit for you, fren.

Why do these threads give me a strange feeling. like sharks

>>13477562
Thats wrong, Shankara criticized almost every school of Buddhism including Madhyamaka, which he dismissed as nihilistic. He criticized some of Buddha's original ideas as well such as for example dependent-origination which he called nonsensical absent something like Brahman causing it, and he tore apart the various no-self arguments by pointing out how they contradict basic epistemology. The only way that Shankara would not have had a problem with Buddha's *actual* ideas would have been if they were just crypto-Upanishadic/Vedanta teachings in which case he might have still attacked them for being so badly formulated that they gave rise to a bunch of retarded interpretations in the later Buddhist schools that Shankara btfo like pic related.

Is it E-vol-a like nebula or e-VOL-a like ebola?

>>13478475
its evil-uh

What languages did Guenon know?
Did he know Sanskrit?

>>13468151
>this ape named herself devi

>>13469625
does trad means not using moden gadgets
i thought it would mean instead of buying from a large corporation you'd just buy a machine made by a local inventor or something

>>13478475
It’s the first
>>13478508
lmao no

>>13478606
He was more or less fluent in French, Spanish, German, English, Italian, Latin, Greek and Arabic and he could also read Chinese, Hebrew and Sanskrit

>>13477898
>Inititiation is once and for all; once you are made a Mason or a Tendai priest or whatever, you are one for life. You can demit from your lodge or temple but you still bear the indelible mark. Because this is the Kali Yuga, many of an organization's initiates may be 'virtual' - "just going through the motions" - but the spiritual influence is still there.
how though?

>>13477901
>If you're seriously interested in converting to Judaism I'm going to assume you're not on 4chan, so I won't bother writing this section.
would that set you on the path of life success's?

>>13478182
>He criticized some of Buddha's original ideas as well such as for example dependent-origination which he called nonsensical absent something like Brahman causing it
Any sources on this? I would like to read his refutations more in-depth.

What happens when you die?

If there is another stage after death was there one before birth?

Which religions are valid and invalid? Why why not?

When was the Golden Age a lot of these writers talk about?

What is to be one with all this trad knowledge?

>>13478850
Because it's the chain of filiation with a 'non-human' source that matters, not the feeling behind it. If you want the church with the most feeling, go Pentecostal. If you want to attain supramundane states of being, you go with an institution that's old, weird and hierarchical.

>>13467013
learn to tie a noose

>>13478918
yeah but what exactly happens during initiation and how is it transmitted? or am i not supposed to reason about it?

>>13478954
An initiation ritual, or any ritual really, is a symbol. A symbol is not a literary device like a metaphor or a figure of speech, it is a real and effective analogy established between different degrees of being, between different “worlds”. It’s an extremely complex aspect of Guenon’s thought, but, without exaggerating, it’s probably the most important aspect of his thought. Without it, none of the other stuff would even mean anything. Once you “get it” this symbolism stuff will change your whole worldview. It’s simply mind blowing. You won’t ever really understand what Guenon means by intellect until you understand his account of symbols. I wish I could explain it adequately in a 4chan post, but I would do it a serious disservice. Check out his work on Symbols of Sacred Science. Honestly I can divide my entire intellectual life to the time before I grasped this notion of symbolism and the time after.

>>13477901
Please do post the Judaism section. Why didn't Guenon go with Judaism?

>>13478999
what purpose does keeping certain people out of it serve?

>>13479056
Not who you were speaking to, they are either a) not of standing moral character to be trusted with secrets, or b) a brainlet who won't be able to interpret the symbols correctly.

>>13479056
Not all initiatic organizations are selective. Eleusinian Mysteries, for example, were open to all including women and slaves. Sufi britherhoods are also mostly quite open, especially in places like North Africa. There are villages that in Morocco where literally everyone, even women, are initiated. It’s completely context based. Groups like the the Freemasons, historically (nit their degenerated contemporary form), have been more secretive because of fear of persecution. Other groups might be very selective because they are of a certain restricted and rigorous type, e.g. a jnana yoga sanyasi group would only would people who are qualified for that sort of path, in terms of natural qualifications. There is no hard and fast rule, it’s very much context dependent.

>>13479079
>>13479070
does it somehow mean lineages that are overly selective > ones that are not selective

>>13479092
Nope. It has nothing to do with that. It’s 1) how qualified you are will determine how far you will actually be capable of getting, and 2) how good of a teacher/guru you can get. If you find a really good guru who suits your needs in a non-selective group then that is where you should go.

>>13479092
I wouldn't say that. Guenon establishes selectivity as a criterion but beyond that he doesn't say more selectivity is necessarily better. Besides, a very selective tradition probably won't initiate YOU.

Im sure this gets asked a million times but where do I start with guenon and should I read anything before hand. Infact I vaguely remember seeing a chart that explained this but I don't have it.

>>13479243

>>13479278
Not the one who you are replying to, but thanks for sharing

>>13477239
>>13477543
is the Visuddhimagga the biggest compendium of autism ever compiled? loved reading it though

>>13478704
being Trad doesn't mean that you have to be a primitivist and just use rocks. the issue is that it's very hard to buy into the innovations of modernity without implicitly also buying into its ideology of progress. like you can buy a dishwasher, work a corporate job and spend all your free time reading traditionalist texts, but are you actually traditionalist or are you just a modern with a coat of paint that you feel comfy wearing?

>>13478902
there are different views (Evola in some texts says only some people will keep existing after death), but what i got from most Traditionalists is that what is eternal in death is also eternal in life, because eternity is outside of time. so if something will keep existing after death it's something that it's already present here and that you can directly experience if you are initiated. nothing will change about it after death. whatever is temporal can have no place in eternity

>>13479079
>Eleusinian Mysteries, for example, were open to all including women and slaves.
Dugin argues the Mysteries of Demeter are Cybelian and chthonic, tying you with the earth as the perpetual cycle of reproduction rather than with something spiritual and eternal
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9BXWgkgRjk&list=PLsDWunul1uS_-BR3BTxRgROHPP1K-rfDo&index=8&t=0s

>>13479856
That’s a characteristically Evolian point of view, very different from Guenon. I agree with Evola on a lot of things, but not with his hateboner for anything “chthonic”.

>>13479879
i think Dugin's reading of modernity as the result of the Cybelian logos reasserting itself is quite compelling

>>13479835
>like you can buy a dishwasher, work a corporate job and spend all your free time reading traditionalist texts, but are you actually traditionalist or are you just a modern with a coat of paint that you feel comfy wearing?
Mmnh

>>13479890
I think Guenon’s reading of modernity resulting from normal cyclical processes is compelling. This cybelian stuff sounds extremely larpy, like it came out of a fantasy novel.

>>13479903
it's more of a weird Heideggerian anthropology of Dugin more than something Trad

>>13474315
>implying its not smart to use the power of modernism to defeat modernism
we never disagreed that modernist influences are not powerful

>>13469625
'Guenonianism' isn't against technological and scientific progress.
>>13479835
>>13479893
Being a 'traditionalist' isn't being a conservative or simply reading texts, it's also being affiliated and initiated into a orthodox spiritual form and applying its principles and praxis to your station or calling in life if not aspiring to greater heights of spiritual realization, wether or not you should buy a dishwasher or work a certain job is putting the cart before the horse.

>>13466909
Each day I grow more and more nostalgic for a fascist theocratic (christian) meritocracy akin to Plato's Republic. Books on this feel?

I only ask because I heard Evola was a fascist.

>>13467892
Guenon wasn't that powerful in practical magic, he was a metaphysician primarily, for example he kept his private address super secret for fear of being attacked by black magicians and curses.

>>13478918
what if someone gets initiation from multiple places

>>13480045
Evola was a superfascist and not very christian

>>13480080
Guenon in some book says eclecticism is retarded. He puts the example of a wheel where spiritual realization is on the center, and each tradition starts from a different point in the border of the wheel and gets to the center following the spokes, but it would be retarded to start from a certain place in the wheel and take different pieces from different spokes and try to get to the center that way

>>13480090
yeah but will the person have the forever lasting spiritual influence from all sources?

>>13480086
I see. That's a shame.
Although understandable.

Its hard to imagine christianity and fascism coexisting as we know them today, what with the compassion, love, and humility expected of the former.

>>13469334
pick one that's closest to your people's sense of expression, aesthetics, language etc? idk if it makes sense

>>13480096
you get the influence by direct oral transmission and whatever initiatic rites that Tradition has, not by reading books. not sure how it would look like somebody getting initiated by different Traditions but it would be weird

>>13480173
>>13480096
There’s nothing wrong with multiple initiations within the same tradition. So if you’re a Muslim you can receive as many initiations you want from different Shaykhs. My source being Ibn Arabi who said so, and in fact he said that any Shaykh who tells you otherwise is full of shit. There absolutely no limits to initiation.

>>13480828
ibn arabi is kuffar

>>13481156
the only people who say that also say that all sufis are kuffar.

Just finished Ananda C’s “The Bugbear of Democracy”. I can recommend it to anyone looking for an explanation of castes in traditional societies.

>>13481896
You're on 4chan. I doubt you'd be in the top caste in a traditional Vedic polity. "Oh come right in, anon. Your chariot and Soma cup await you."

>>13482138
Not him, but so what? I'm a shudra by descent (I come from a family line of cobblers, which technically might be chandala since it's leatherworking) but that doesn't stop me from appreciating the traditional worldview. I have no illusions about being superior high caste ubermensche

>>13482138
His argument is that even a lower caste member of a traditional society is better off than a mid-tier professional in Western society.

Is there such a thing as gnosticist traditionalism?

>>13481171
and theyre not wrong

>>13482558
guenon is a gnostic...traditionalism is a gnosticism

>>13482566
I thought he was Sufi

Where do i start with trad? The Bible?

>>13467914
It wasn’t really very voluntary dude, if the woman didn’t throw herself into the pyre her family may very well force her into it. Women didn’t really have a choice in those cases. Living as a widow sucked too

>>13482591
Gnostic as in seeker of higher knowledge, not Gnostic Christianity.

You guys should read eastern authors works on eastern concepts before reading traditionalists. You will be able to see where they go off and make a educated decision between them

>>13482558
>Is there such a thing as gnosticist traditionalism?
If you mean like the Valentinians and Carpocratians and other early demiurge type sects, I would say no for Guenon. You have to get initiated into a living tradition. For Evola, I don't know, but I doubt it. Probably too semitic.

You should read Dumezil before you make up your mind about the Vedas, before Eastern authors.

>>13472952
Yeah, and you should include celibacy in it anyways

>>13467897
Anyone got a cap of this?

New to /trad/itionalism. How do I know which path to follow?

>>13484614
>guenon on one of his contemplative walks in the streets of france
>but the homos strutting around openly, the cacophony of gay lisps and butt fluid on the walk just disgust him so he diverges into the woods
>ahaaaa calmness
>falls into a ditch
>dude riding a wind horse appears out of nowhere and pulls him out
>many years later meets the same dude in egypt
>"yeah it was me bro who saved you"

>>13484888
What's the source of this.