/lit/ - Literature

>he wants to be adored all the time despite being an asshole, he wants people to love him and accepts his acts like it's the best thing in the universe
I can only think of tyrants and dictatorships when I see him

>if I define my daddy as everything good [which I know is true cause he told me it was] then it becomes bad to rebel against him!

>>13466143
The discovery of knowledge is the doom of humanity, and the beckoning of the soon to come machine overlords

Simple. We are the products of God’s will and the continuation of his legacy. We are here to honor his will.

>>13466156
Weird dictator that allows you to question him.

>>13466176
It wasn't a fair trade, first of all god didn't teach them what knowledge was and didn't told them about the snake who was going to tempt them, he just made everything like in the Sims game and just watched

>>13466195
He allows you to question him but as soon as you question him and his acts your fate is to get your ass burnt in hell for eternity (if you don't love him or have faith in him)
>And if you do love him and have faith in him wow good for him, he will have you to kneel down in his fairy tale land to adore him for eternity, what a life huh

>>13466211
>These are the rules. If you break the rules, I will forgive you if you come back to me, no matter what you might have done. If you never come back, you’re on your own — if the evil one takes you he takes you.
Sounds fair desu.

>>13466195
After 3 billion years in hell I'll be thinking well at least god allowed me to question him for the 80 years I lived

Honestly fuck God he seems like a right fucking cunt
Send me to hell I don't care mate, I'm not gonna worship a prick

>>13466200
It’s not supposed to be fair, it’s inevitable.

Que sera, sera

>>13466234
>>13466237
And after all that you guys still think that he is a good being right, let's put in place that the hell itself was a place that he created to punish the angels that betrayed him and every human that didn't walked his narrow line of conduct...

>Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil
Please say the full thing, it's confusing and retarded if you just say "knowledge". Adam and Eve clearly knew things before eating the apple. You are literally missing the whole fucking point of the story if you think of the tree as symbolizing knowledge rather than specifically the knowledge of good and evil. Literally tens of thousands of cucked retarded pseudo-intellectuals have buttered their bread off of this one childish mistake.
Anyway,
Placing the tree in the garden could be thought of as a test.
>In heaven whoever thought about his acts like Lucifer did just got banished to hell
You're thinking of Paradise Lost, not Scriptures.
Trying to interpret the deeds of the Biblical God as literal actions that you then choose to either approve of or disapprove of is firstly, arbitrary as all fuck, and secondly retarded and superficial. You're missing the point.

>>13466237
do Christians really believe in hell? It seems so unJesuslike to condemn everyone to suffering like that instead of forgiving them

>>13466268
You faggot. The original knowledge was not of good and evil, that’s again, just metaphor for consciousness, being able to reflexively relate your ontological experience to reality. Thereby before becoming “conscious”, their “knowledge” was simply fitness (in the darwinian sense)

>>13466211
>>13466237
>>13466262
Someday, you may discover that God, whom you curse, loves you, forgives you, and waits for you when no one else will.

>>13466281
Completely fucking wrong and to boot you just spit out the common pseud opinion nowadays. Yeah mate, what a completely DEEP and awesome revelation that you definitely came up with yourself via self exploration using scripture as a framework and not some gay shit you repeated off of Joe Rogan. Post your IQ so I can have another laugh.

>>13466283
The unforgivable sin is to curse the Holy Spirit
In an act of defiance against the sadistic dictator you worship, I say: fuck the Holy nigger-fucking ball-licking spirit. I hereby curse the Holy Spirit.

>>13466143
>>Placed an apple of knowledge in it
Stopped reading right there, read the Bible before you criticize it.

>>13466268
Op here
You missing the point of my thread, I'm not talking about details, I'm talking about God's acts towards humans and his angels, whom he tried to punish in everlasting pain for eternity.
This doesn't sound very good for me, sounds for you? Also let's talk about the narrow rules he sent for us to obey him, and if we are tempted to do something out of it then you're gifted to your vip area in hell

>>13466295
>He reads scripture in a literal sense rather than metaphorically

>>13466332
So you're not open to debate because op missed a word? Oh shit I can see who is the brainlet here

>>13466342
Completely the opposite my retarded friend, just because I don't take your gradeschool interpretation to be true doesn't mean I don't have a symbolic understanding of the scriptures also, be more dogmatic
>>13466340
> whom he tried to punish in everlasting pain for eternity.
sounds pretty based to me
> and if we are tempted to do something out of it
Have you read the actual Bible? Not only is your conception of it hilarious but you are actually fucking up the details of even your realm of thinking on it
who fucking cares if you think God is """moral""" or not? Lmfao

>>13466384
>be more dogmatic
fucking pseud

ITT people who don’t know that I’m Christian eschatology, the last judgement will entail the creation of a new heavens and a new earth, repaired from the damage of sin.
Some further confusions:
God’s love is sort of like fire. Those who love him will look upon him and experience his love as warmth and wonder. Those who sin but are salvageable will experience his love as purifying flame. Those who have finally hardened their hearts against him will experience him as pain and torment. We call these states, which exists outside space and time, heaven, purgatory, and hell.

>>13466384
He created these sinful acts based on his concept of moral, now tell me, let's say you're living in North Korea where the fat dude says what u have to do and what you have to avoid, if you do something out of his way you'd get a punishment, isn't your god and the fat guy from North Korea vibing in the same frequency? Would u love it if your god applied his concepts of moral on Earth? Well that's already happening

>>13466316
That’s probably not what is meant by blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Sorry to say, but he still loves you.

>>13466483
thank god I had been worried about that. What does it mean then?

>>13466412
Thanks for playing, better luck next time.
>>13466431
It's amazing that you construct these arguments to try and prove that the morality of other hypothetical figures is arbitrary and yet completely lack the self-awareness to apply it back on yourself. It's incredible to watch in real time.

>>13466511
I'm just putting side to side his manners of a tyrant next to a real tyrant, if you didn't notice they go hand by hand, why would you worship a god like that? He contradicts himself by telling people to love each other and whoever doesn't love him it's punished, oh well...

>>13466495
We don’t know for sure, but it’s probably something like final unrepentance, suicide, or some willful, permanent condition of utter blackheartedness. Sort of tautologically, it’s not something you can bounce back from.

I think OP's argument is dumb but any argument that it is unreasonable to construe God as evil, or that it isn't anything but a manner of opinion is false.

God is the original first moving cause of everything and therefore the author of all good and evil, the typical rebuttal is as follows.
>God simply gave his creations the choices to do something and they failed and continue to fail, Satan is responsible for all the evil things in the world in nature like Ebola and parasitoid wasps, and hurricanes.
And even if you give a theist this ridiculous non premise that just substantiates a convenient scapegoat into existence it is still retarded.
>The set of all possible action's God's creation can take are defined by God this includes humanity and his angels. If that includes actions that cause suffering, are evil, or result in evil punishment they have no other cause besides God because only God is able to establish the conditions for events to occur in the first place.

Therefore even if you accept the theistic model, Moral Nihilism still applies and going to heaven or not is a personal choice, God's existence and his adherents in the afterlife are malignantly useless and categorically serve nor moral purpose.

Why the fuck do you guys talk about a religion you never bothered to study and know mostly from tv shows and fedoras?

>>13466268
"If you disagree with or dispute it, you're missing he point! (Which is to never disagree with or dispute it, silly)"

>>13466352
It was a clear indication he has not done the reading, so when he does that he can come back and try again.

God is just an approximation we've created after thousands of years of trial and error to tell us about our relationship with the world.

I'd say the christian god and the biblical stories are built from suffering. This is probably useful because suffering is absolute and inherently meaningful to those who experience it. We usually say that "we are the children of God", or something. But in reality I think God is the child of all of humanity, and could only ever be birthed by tens of thousands over tens of thousands of years.

>>13466143

>>13466545
>Implying that God as omnipotent and omniscient as he is didn't knew that Satan (his creation) wouldn't do all this warm to humanity

>It's all according to his malignant plan, he knew that and he knew we would suffer, but he just doesn't care, he only cares if you love him and have faith in him or not

>>13466640
That is one interpretation but you don't even need to go that far. Heaven is torture for any being with a will, suicide is a sin and therefore no entity will ever be able to opt out of heaven. They will go through their ordered preferences in an eternity, run out and then be in a state of eternal catatonic boredom equivalent to death.

>>13466640
>666
>Satan is in this thread
I agree with you, also I think that because Christianity is a weak religion with a weak God that was crucified by humans then it's Christianity fault that our people today are so weak minded

>>13466664
I missed the reply
I was going to reply to: >>13466627

>>13466664
Why do you think christianity is weak? It sounds like you're measuring the "strength" of a religion (whatever that may be) by dogmatism.

Would you prefer something more oppressive or strict?
Besides, atheism is at an all time high. I think that works against the idea of weak christianity being the cause of weak westerners. It's almost the opposite, no? Less TRUE CHRISTIANS, more weak minds?

I'm thinking about convert to christian but the fact that I have to adore god for eternity I don´t know I would like to do other stuff in paradise like something more productive.

>>13466872
Eye has not seen, ear has not heard, what God has ready for those who love Him.

The Problem of Hell makes christianity untenable. The amount of mental gymnastics people have to pull to cope with this fact is a sight to behold

>>13467701
What’s the problem?

>>13467706
Read the literature if you're serious about it

The fact that some people think you can even compare this shit to something like perenialism or Buddhism is a horror story in itself

>>13466237
A damned soul once appeared to St. Hubert, and said, that two remorses were her most cruel executioners in Hell: the thought of the little which was necessary for her to have done in this life to secure her salvation; and the thought of the trifles for which she brought herself to eternal misery. The same thing has been said by St. Thomas. Speaking of the reprobate, he says: "They shall be in sorrow principally because they are damned for nothing, and because they could most easily have obtained eternal life." Let us stop to consider this first source of remorse, that is, how few and transitory are the pleasures for which all the damned are lost.

Each of the reprobate will say for eternity: If I abstained from such a gratification; if in certain circumstances I overcame human respect; if I avoided such an occasion of sin or such a companion, I should not now be damned; if I had frequented some pious sodality; if I had gone to confession every week; if in temptations I had recommended myself to God, I would not have relapsed into sin. I have so often proposed to do these things, but I have not done them. I began to practice these means of salvation, but afterwards gave them up; and thus I am lost.

This torment of the damned will be increased by the remembrance of the good example given them by some young companions who led a chaste and pious life even in the midst of the world. It will be still more increased by the recollection of all the gifts which the Lord had bestowed upon them, that by their co-operation they might acquire eternal salvation — the gifts of nature health, riches, respectability of family, talents — all gifts granted by God, not to be employed in the indulgence of pleasures and in the gratification of vanity, but in the sanctification of their souls, and in becoming saints. So many gifts of grace, so many divine lights, holy inspirations, loving calls, and so many years of life to repair past disorders — but they shall forever hear from the angel of the Lord that for them the time of salvation is past. "The angel whom I saw standing, swore by Him that liveth for ever and ever ... that time shall be no longer" (Apoc. 10:6).

Alas! What cruel swords shall all these blessings received from God be to the heart of a poor damned Christian, when he shall see himself shut up in the prison of Hell, and that there is no more time to repair his eternal ruin! In despair he will say to his wretched companions: "The harvest is past; the summer is ended; and we are not saved" (Jer. 8:20). The time, he will say, of gathering fruits of eternal life is past; the summer, during which we could have saved our souls, is over, but we are not saved; the winter is come; but it is an eternal winter, in which we must live in misery and despair as long as God shall be God.

O fool, he will say, that I have been! If I had suffered for God the pains to which I have submitted for the indulgence of my passions, if the labors which I have endured for my own damnation had been borne for my salvation, how happy should I now be! And what now remains of all past pleasures but remorse and pain, which now torture, and shall torture me for eternity? Finally, he will say, I might be forever happy and now must be forever miserable. Ah! This thought will torture the damned more than the fire and all the other torments of Hell.

>>13467712
As far as I can tell from this thread, it’s people with bad morals who think God is a tyrant, not knowing what the word “tyrant” actually means, mapping their prejudices of 20th century fundamentalism across all Christians in all times, being unable to even comprehend criticism of their bad morals, which they see as self-evident (!) who think justice for the wicked is bad.

>>13467739
This is precisely the kind of mental gymnastics I'm talking about
Simply dismissing people who object to the idea of eternal suffering as having "bad morals" is just pure cope

>>13467757
They do. They think they are too good not to be punished for eternity. If you really feel that you're either a bad person or you haven't lived much in the real world to see how terrible people can be.

>>13467718
>>13467721
dammn that's hardcore. based i guess.

>>13467763
If you really feel that way you're either a truly bad person or you have never loved someone
Tell me, what happens to a mother that loves his child with all her heart, only to find him suffering in hell forever while she is in heaven? Would she be okay with that? Is God okay with that, knowing that he created every single human, knowing that most would end up in hell even though he supposedly loves them?

>>13467763
Nothing justifies eternal torture, it's fucking insane. Leaving alone that free will doesn't make sense, supposing people really do have it, you are going to subject people to eternal torture for their human weakness, their flaws as ridiculous imperfect animals existing in a confusing and unclear world, over the course of a few mere decades, that is worth torturing someone until the end of time? Why not just kill their soul, extinguish it, if that is what they deserve? It would be better to heal them, for any omnipotent God could surely do that, but if He doesn't want to then why consign them to torture instead of just ending them. It's such a fucked up idea.

>>13467774
You've never seen the hatred in this world and what people do to themselves and one another.

>>13467807
You know nothing about what I've seen, and it seems you cannot formulate an argument

>>13467774
This mistakes sentiment for morality. Has it occurred to you that the former could possibly not be equivalent to the latter?

>>13467788
An insult against infinite majesty is worthy of infinite punishment.

>>13467836
The humans who insult infinite majesty have no idea what they're doing. Nobody would spit on a God if they knew it was real, they are confused and they don't believe because nothing has made them believe, and they act according to impulses that make sense to them.

it is inhumanly cruel to wish torture on anyone, why not just end them if they are really such an evil thing that they should not exist?

>>13467826
According to Christian theology humans receive knowledge about objective moral truths from the Holy Spirit, yet the problem of hell raises moral issues that run against all human intuition of what is good and bad. It's not mere sentimentality, no matter how hard you try to spin it that way. It's a problem Christian scholars have struggled from centuries, and whose proposed solutions are either incomplete or outright morally abhorrent to nearly every human.

>>13467788
Hey baby, it doesn’t have to make sense. That’s just the way it is.

>>13467788
you know there are appeals and parole in hell right? God's not gonna tell you about it ofc when he's trying to disincentive you from going at all

>>13467846
They run against your provincial, sentimental, bourgeois, moral intuitions. Most people know that this life does not distribute its rewards and punishments justly. The truly wicked often prosper, the good are trampled by the wicked. Doing what is right is often excruciatingly difficult physically, emotionally and socially. Doing what is wrong often brings terrific satisfaction and material reward. What kind of moral system would leave it at that? What about those who thirst for justice and do not find it in this life? What kind of moral system would justify the final indemnity of evil? Perhaps it’s one that originates from, and benefits the wicked themselves?

>>13467896
You clearly know how to talk without saying anything

>>13467905

Cf. >>13467739
>being unable to even comprehend criticism of their bad morals,

>>13467921
Ironically your post is nothing more than a pile of sentimentalism without substance
Nothing of what you said addresses the problem of hell

>>13467922
How is pointing out that the final indemnity of evil is contrary to any normative notion of justice sentimental?

>>13467941
Because it doesn't solve the issues raised by the Problem of Hell, it only seeks to generate an emotional response

>>13466415
Jehovah is an evil, hateful deity. There is no love there. Loving Jehovah is only possible if you are evil. The only moral response is to despise Him.

Hell isn't even a Biblical concept, but you don't need Hell to condemn Jehovah as evil. There's plenty other evidence in His own holy book.

>>13467979
Of course it does. It’s an analytic proposition. No bachelors are married. No just moral order intentionally indemnifies wickedness.

>>13468051
Explain to me how an eternal hell has to necessarily exist in order to not indemnify wickedness

>>13468064
the problem of hell evaporates when you read that old buddhist maxim: you're not punished for your anger, but by your anger.

honestly 99% of these threads are just goobers castigating christianity for their own basic bitch understanding

>>13468081
Terrible post

>>13468064
If God and his beloved creation have infinite value, then unrepentant sin against God or your neighbor implies infinite damage.

>>13468126
Not an analytic proposition

>>13468126
Why is repentance impossible in hell?

>>13466195
Holy fuck you're super fucking stupid. I shouldn't even have to explain to you why you're wrong but even if I broke it down piece by piece and held your hand along the way it still wouldn't go through your 5 inch thick skull. But I'll put it briefly as a food for thought: a dictator who gives someone a year to change his mind when expressing dissent is still a malevolent tyrant if he tortures and kills him for continuing to disagree and he is in no capacity """"letting"""" people question him.

>>13468143
Hell is a state outside of space and time that equates to the final rejection of God’s love and mercy, so that unmediated experience of such is felt as pain and torment.
If you sin, but are salvageable, you experience God’s love as purifying flame, tending towards the third outcome:
If you love God and your neighbor, and accept his grace and mercy, you will experience his love and mercy as such.
This is the doctrine of Hell, Purgatory, and Heaven.
Also nobody in this thread seems to understand that Heaven and Hell, though experiences as infinite, are not the end. After the particular judgement comes the final judgement, where God will create a new heaven and a new earth, totally repaired from the damage of sin. We don’t know if this implies universal salvation or not, but some theologians suggest that it is possible.

>>13468214
While eventual universal salvation avoids some aspects of the problem of hell, it opens a whole can of worms relating to issues with scripture.

>>13468214
Heaven, Hell, and especially Purgatory, are not in the Bible to begin with. It's all fanfic.

>>13467718
schizo incel LARPing as a Christian because he hates women and brown people. Based asperger hentai addicted virgin.

>>13468659
That is saint alphonsus di liguri, doctor of the church. You're the larper and very shameful projection.

>>13466143
Have any of you faggots actually read Fear and Trembling?

>>13466143
The Gnostics were right, YHWH is just another name for the demiurge, but if you believe in a God above that it can't possibly be good for allowing all of this to happen, even if we are all shards of a divinity that split itself into infinite shards/souls in order to experience this existence from different perspectives, the divinity is still in error for allowing existence to be structured this way by itself or one or more demiurge, the only positive view is that this all stems from indifferent chaos, that existence must exist for its own sake as it is impossible for non existence to exist as nothing is able to experience it as time itself ceases to be so non existence is instantaneous and thus existence returns—the time after existence and before being imperceptible due to the nature of non existence. It's either indifference in chaos or an evil creator, once you look at it all rationally and no longer emotionally need the concept of god(s)/deity/God. Don't forget that although I understand you have to resort to literal interpretation to deal with the completely ignorant, that there is almost always an esoteric interpretation to everything within religion, it is almost never literal.

>>13468757
I think that not only Christianity but the whole concept of religion is based on some asshole with a superiority complex who wants to be adored and feared

Provided the nature of God were as you suggested it was (I doubt it is), the correct thing would be to alter your morality to your new reality.

>>13468178
This is not what the Church teaches, but even if it were, that would still be a very weird dictator.

>>13469277
What does the church teach that makes it significantly different?

>>13466143
>>13468757

You ARE the Demiurge.

>>13466143
While I do appreciate threads criticizing Christianity, can we not simply accept that many aspects of it's doctrine are simply bankrupt either of morality or reason, and stop taking seriously a culture which does not deserve to be, only perpetuating itself to this day through it's successful, continued creation of unthinking drones who aggressively spread it's messaging during their generation?

We're all familiar with the culture by now. If you're not a fan of it, and would like for it to become less prominent, please refrain from giving it further spotlight and possibly try to give such attention to non-Christian notions of spirituality, be it a different religion or simply independent philosophical ideas not found within typical Western dialectic.

These threads will never get anywhere - the people critical or disdainful of Christianity will always remain so, and the people following the doctrines will most likely continue to be until personal reflection (rather than external critique) changes their opinion. These conversations genuinely sound like kindergarteners attempting to debate of adult matters, or adults discoursing of kindergartener-level subject matter. It'd be much more fruitful for people to open up their own conversations regarding alternate conceptions of reality than what Abrahamic religion teaches, than to spend their days simply dissecting and rebutting the Abrahamic narratives they disapprove of, effectively having shaped their entire mind by a doctrine they don't even believe in,

>>13466156
You've seen the face of God?
Neat.

>>13469933
Moses did, so it doesn't seem impossible for a random anon to have also.

>>13466143
Christian god doesn't exist, the Logos/Zeus does
>In response to the question of how evil could exist in a good universe, Chrysippus replied "evil cannot be removed, nor is it well that it should be removed."[77] Firstly, he argued, following Plato, that it was impossible for good to exist without evil, for justice could not be known without injustice, courage without cowardice, temperance without intemperance or wisdom without foolishness.[78] Secondly, apparent evils exist as a consequent of nature's goodness, thus it was necessary for the human skull to be made from small and thin bones for reasons of utility, but this superior utility meant that the skull is vulnerable to blows.[78] Thirdly, evils are distributed according to the rational will of Zeus, either to punish the wicked or because they are important to the world-order as a whole.[79] Thus evil is good under disguise, and is ultimately conducive to the best. Chrysippus compared evil to the coarse jest in the comedy; for, just as the jest, though offensive in itself, improves the piece as a whole, "so too you may criticize evil regarded by itself, yet allow that, taken with all else, it has its use."[80]

>>13469959
No he did not. Moses asked to, but God said that it would be overwhelming even for Moses--who God loved most--so Moses only saw the back of God's head. If you were half as righteous and devoted to God as Moses, how much more wonderful this world would be.

>>13470029
My mistake anon, and sorry for not being half as righteous and devoted to YHWH as Moses was.

>>13466143
Hell is not eternal, read the Apocalypse of Peter.

>>13470168
Don't apologize to me. I am no one. Reconcile with God. To hear even the echo of his voice is greater than any earthly thing. He loves you and wants you to come home.

>>13466143

THESES:

1. A parent allows a child freedom unless this or until that. God allows Man freedom unconditionally. Which one is Good?

2. If everyone stood still and quiet for a day, which of the Evils you ascribe to God would persist?

3. Given: Initial Good of God>absolute freedom of Man>absolute permission to do Evil, would mitigation or exemption from consequential Evil be congruent with or contrary to the initial Good of God?

>>13470211
My beliefs align with Buddhism, but I wish you the best on your own spiritual path.

>>13466143

THESES:

1. A parent allows a child freedom unless this or until that. God allows Man freedom unconditionally. Which one is Good?

2. If everyone was still and quiet for a day, which of the Evils you ascribe to God would persist?

3. Given: Initial Good of God>absolute freedom of Man>absolute permission to do Evil, would mitigation of or exemption from consequential Evil be congruent with or contrary to the initial Good of God?

>>13470271
No one should ever base their search for truth on personal inclination. It is not the truth which must fit our beliefs, but our beliefs that must fit the truth.

>>13470262
>unconditionally
This word doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.

You're also working from the assumption that Jehovah is good, which is not a given and needs to be proven. Such is the entire point of this thread.

>>13466143
I agree with your criticism of the Abrahamic God. However, the Zoroastrian God, Ahura Mazda, does not have this issue. Before explaining why, let me state the Gathas is the only portion that goes back to Zarathustra, and the rest of Zend-Avesta was written more by other mobed, some with conflicting opinions. From my own reading of numerous translations of the Gathas and various other texts, I have come to my own historical deductions, which I could indeed defend.

In Zoroastrianism, Ahura Mazda initially created the world to be in complete order and tranquility but then the chaotic Ahriman attacked out avarice, causing the intermixture of conflicting good and evil. The Gathas seems to indicate that Ahura Mazda was not responsible for the existence of Ahriman. Moreover, the Bundahishn uses the metaphors of a "orb of light" or "celestial sphere", which Ahura Mazda initially crafted, and then Ahriman attacked out of avarice with his darkness and destructive spirit.

One can easily see that Ahura Mazda was not omnipotent or omniscient since it was due to a cosmic accident that Ahriman attacked. Rather, Ahura Mazda is claimed to have an "edge" in the ongoing conflict with Ahriman's chaos.

One can assist Ahura Mazda in his on-going battle by embodying "Spenta Mainyu". Mainyu simultaneously means both "mentality" and "spirit" while "Spenta" means holy or sacred. Spenta Mainyu is the Holy Spirit of Ahura Mazda which can connect to our minds, and it can help oppose "Angra Mainyu", which is the destructive spirit of Ahriman.

The path of privileging Spenta Mainyu is called "asha", which refers to Truth and Order, whereas the path of giving into Ahriman is called "druj", which refers to Lie and Disorder.

If we look at Mazdakism, Manichaeism, Zurvanism, and other Zoroastrian sects, we see they all refine or modify this dualistic dialect in their own ways, and it does not contradict the spirit of the Gathas.

The idea that Zoroastrianism was "monotheistic" is nonsense. It was more of a cosmological dualism. The Abrahamic God is responsible for both good and evil, which means that on higher levels of realization one sees the unity between good and evil. However, in most Zoroastrian sects, there is no unity between good and evil.

>>13470634
It's such a shame Zoroastrianism didn't win in the end, and that we're still stuck with desert garbage.

>>13470682
Stop making everything political.

I never think of God as someone fundamentally good. I think of God as a being above us in logic, that's all. He just does his things while we wonder wtf is going on

Well, the idea is that God created everything, so everything works fine until people create broken systems of reasoning to try justify the raping of each-other, after that somebody bigger comes rapes their asses and they either point their finger at god in blame or ask him for forgiveness because they were wrong. Human error is derived completely out of anthropomorphism and fixation to systems that don't comply with reality (they do this to try and experience optimal living conditions and euphoria, or wanna see cool shit happen and feel excitement, ideas which are anti-christian as people cannot experience glory outside of the glory of gods existence), human reasoning exists to observe the world around it and experience its interrelationships, people get misled into thinking that sensory pursuits are the real reason for life, that mode of thinking is anti-christian.

God doesn't care about our bodies and he doesn't want us to fixate on them, he can create a trillion more people through this exact system or process of nature if he wishes and he only gave the body to us to traverse this plane and give us the tools necessary to exist within our means, the body is also with us to help come to an understanding of him through the observation of his works (nature, the earth).

At the end of the day, he remembers everything, he knows everything and he has already anticipated everything, i think it might be possible that he gave people free will to engage in the act of creation as a way for him to continue the actual process of creation through other complex systems; letting the systems (us) create other systems ad infinitum, but clearly humans have done much wrong and God will not accept illogical systems of reasoning and souls into his domain.

>>13470841
The only place that post was political was in your own brain, bud. Take your own advice.

>>13470906
C'mon man. There are only two kinds of Zoroastrian posters--/x/-tier anti-semitic schizos, and /pol/-tier anti-semitic schizos. And let's also be honest, you didn't research Zoroastrianism and then become anti-semitic, you became anti-semitic first. And let's be even more honest,you didn't become anti-semitic because you studied Judaism or rabbinic philosophy; it was because you had political opinions that were not popular. And to continue being honest, you can acknowledge that a significant reason for holding those political opinions was that you were frustrated that assholes with better social skills were doing things to women that you wanted to do, but didn't have the balls to do. Don't act like you've been some principled contemplative monk.

>>13470941
>not liking Abrahamic faiths = being racist
Ask how I know you're a moron. I'm not even the Zoroastrian poster; you're just a moron.

>>13470941
Shut the fuck up, you stupid low IQ self-victimizing piece of shit. I was not antisemitic in my post whatsoever, and I am Zoroastrian. I actually didn't like his use of the phrase "Desert God". It's just not professional when discussing metaphysics. Yes, my God is more of a Steppe God, but so what?
Go to fucking hell.

>>13470526
I went ahead and reposted my explanation.
>>13470941
I am reposting this because I hate how self-victimizing and stupid you are. I literally had a visceral and hateful reaction after reading your post, as if you are some kind of vermin or bug who can only scream "antisemitism" towards things you disagree with in order to garner fake sympathy. I want to prove there was nothing "incel-like" or antisemitic about my post, which was merely informational.
You honestly repulse me as a person:

I agree with your criticism of the Abrahamic God. However, the Zoroastrian God, Ahura Mazda, does not have this issue. Before explaining why, let me state the Gathas is the only portion that goes back to Zarathustra, and the rest of Zend-Avesta was written more by other mobed, some with conflicting opinions. From my own reading of numerous translations of the Gathas and various other texts, I have come to my own historical deductions, which I could indeed defend.

In Zoroastrianism, Ahura Mazda initially created the world to be in complete order and tranquility but then the chaotic Ahriman attacked out avarice, causing the intermixture of conflicting good and evil. The Gathas seems to indicate that Ahura Mazda was not responsible for the existence of Ahriman. Moreover, the Bundahishn uses the metaphors of a "orb of light" or "celestial sphere", which Ahura Mazda initially crafted, and then Ahriman attacked out of avarice with his darkness and destructive spirit.

One can easily see that Ahura Mazda was not omnipotent or omniscient since it was due to a cosmic accident that Ahriman attacked. Rather, Ahura Mazda is claimed to have an "edge" in the ongoing conflict with Ahriman's chaos.

One can assist Ahura Mazda in his on-going battle by embodying "Spenta Mainyu". Mainyu simultaneously means both "mentality" and "spirit" while "Spenta" means holy or sacred. Spenta Mainyu is the Holy Spirit of Ahura Mazda which can connect to our minds, and it can help oppose "Angra Mainyu", which is the destructive spirit of Ahriman.

The path of privileging Spenta Mainyu is called "asha", which refers to Truth and Order, whereas the path of giving into Ahriman is called "druj", which refers to Lie and Disorder.

If we look at Mazdakism, Manichaeism, Zurvanism, and other Zoroastrian sects, we see they all refine or modify this dualistic dialect in their own ways, and it does not contradict the spirit of the Gathas.

The idea that Zoroastrianism was "monotheistic" is nonsense. It was more of a cosmological dualism. The Abrahamic God is responsible for both good and evil, which means that on higher levels of realization one sees the unity between good and evil. However, in most Zoroastrian sects, there is no unity between good and evil.

>>13470987
>zoroastrianism isn't a desert religion
>zoroastrianism is the only non-abrahamic religion
You seem rather defensive.

Not sure Lucifer existed or was "banished" for asking questions. I believe that is a conflation of the John Milton book

>>13471023
*Go to the house of lies.

>>13471076
I'm sure you meant all the non-semitic desert religions right? Quit reddit-posting. Quit jumping to conclusions. Quit basing your ideas off of wikipedia entries. Read a book.

>>13471089
You might want to try reading comprehension. And taking your meds, since you appear to be reading words that don't actually exist.

>>13470893
Simply put: completely agree.

>>13471119
Improve your understanding of physical geography, you dumb piece of shit. Zoroastrianism originated from Northern Central Asia in the area natively called "Khorasan" or the historical settlement called BMAC complex.

It is not from a desert region at all. It is from the steppes. Goddammit, kys.

>>13471168
Okay, I found a better map. It originated somewhere around BMAC or Yaz horizon. It's not a fucking desert. It's the steppes.

>>13471168
Do you think Israel is only a desert? Do you think that there were no deserts in the entire territory of Iran? Did not the desert play an important role in Zoroastrian theology? Are desert tribes not the predominant inheritors of Zoroastrianism in Iran today? I think it's pretty fair to say your only exposure to Zoroastrianism is online.

>>13471231
I've read various translations of the Gathas and other scholarly works on Zoroastrianism.
Zoroastrianism didn't emerge in Iran. I already made that clear, brainlet.
>Do you think Israel is only a desert?
Your attempt of trying to steer this topic to a discussion of Israel, portray yourself as a victim, and garner sympathy isn't going to work here. It's time you fuck off, you illiterate faggot.

>>13471129
I highly recommend you read Logic: An Introduction by Robert Churchill. It's quite old, but still quite useful. Luckily, basic logic hasn't changed in a very long time.

>>13471253
To be more precise, Zoroastrianism originated somewhere around Yaz and BMAC horizon during 1000-1500 BCE. Most scholars like Mary Boyce, Richard Foltz, and others tend to agree with that.

>>13471254
You still seem to be reading things that don't exist. You might want to call your local mental health care facility. You seem to be having an episode.

>>13471253
Oh, I see. It's accurate to portray Abrahamic faiths as desert faiths, because the common conception of today is that they're from the desert (even though most of it does not take place in the desert), but it is innacurate to say Zorastrianism is a desert religion (despite the presence of the desert both in the theology and the history), because it's precise origin was in a place which received just over 10 inches of rainfall (barely making it more hospitable than a technical desert), just like the most important locations in the development of the Abrahamic religions. Glad we cleared that up, and I'm certainly very glad that your interpretation of this has not been steered at all by the misapprehension that I am Jewish, as though that could possibly be clouding your judgement.

>>13471295
Saying the same joke twice doesn't make it any better.

>>13471309
It's not a joke. I'm concerned for your mental health, because you pretty fucking clearly keep reading shit into everyone's post that isn't there.

>>13471297
I wasn't the one who said "Desert God", dumb fucker.
>It's accurate to portray Abrahamic faiths as desert faiths
I never did this.
Stop self-victimizing yourself over nothing.

>>13471253
>>13471331
You realize he's trolling you, right?

You were making good points he couldn't refute, so he brought up a totally different argument to distract you. You fell for it. This is the #1 arguing tactic on 4chan.

>if God good why my peepee small?
Why is this always, and I mean always, the "argument" of athe*sts?
They are trying to justify being bad people by claiming being good is illogical.
Its almost like they are searching for positive reinforcement for their wicked lives. Rly mks u thnk.

>>13471352
It takes a real brainlet to use the "if God good" argument, true. It instantly outs them as someone who only knows about Christianity from Atheist forums, or maybe half-remembered memories of Sunday school.

Anyone who has actually read the Bible from beginning to end knows for a fact that God is evil.

>>13471331
>I was literally shaking
You're the one claiming to be a victim dude. You're the one making excusing and changing the terms of a debate you weren't a part of, and didn't understand apparently.

>>13471345
I'm not trolling, samefag

>>13471403
>samefag
Either trolling or a moron, clearly.

>>13471396
You said the only Zoroastrian posters on 4chan are antisemitic schizos, and I proved you wrong.
>didn't understand apparently.
All you're doing is crying about antisemitism that didn't exist.
>>13471403
Yes, I believe you are genuinely low-IQ and stupid.

>>13471413
No. Redditors are a hive mind. Even if it's different anons, it's still samefaggin.

>>13471440
>samefaggin
I am neither a Redditor nor samefagging.

>>13471440
>Redditors
I see you've run out of arguments and have moved to buzzwords.

>>13471419
But you're not Zoroastrian. You've read about it plenty, but you don't practice it. You've never met another practitioner in person. Have you even corresponded with one, other than here? So far you seem to fall quite clearly into the /x/-tier Zoroastrian*. You're still anti-semitic (probably), but it has become a side-point to you, simply an extreme immanation of druj.

>>13471446
>>13471459
The spacing doesn't lie

>>13471461
>You're still anti-semitic
I'm done talking to you.
>immanation of druj
It's emanation, you dumb faggot.

>>13466143
Way i see it, it's possible from a christian perspective (see romans 1) for people to be saved without being christian christian

>>13471467
You're hallucinating antisemitism and assume we're the same people. I wish /lit/ had ID tags to avoid this issue.

>>13471467
You're a newfag. I've been here a decade, and "reddit spacing" has been around on 4chan since long before me. Not to mention my posts don't even use it, claiming that spaces makes someone from Reddit just outs you as a newfag.

>>13466251
>not gonna worship a prick

> is a prick himself and worships himself, while labeling something he doesnt undertand as evil and willing to suffer for being a stubborn shithead

> at least you stuck to your values anon
Have fun burning in hell fucking retard

>>13471502
The Problem of Evil is a valid issue.

>>13470276

I DEMAND that someone engages, NOW!

>be me
>God himself
>makes smaller less intelligent versions of himself
>literally owns them
>makes morality for them
>theyre judging me
Ok fag

>>13471519
One way people like Augustine explained it was evil is the absence of good. Makes sense, not my go to explanation but meh it works

>>13471541
St. Augustine was initially a Manichaeist, but he left when they wouldn't make him an Elect. His whole idea of Original Sin and evil as the absence of good were formed out of resent.

>>13471472
>doesn't understand how one thing can be described by different words
>doesn't understand his own religion enough to understand what someone else is saying in it
Why did you become Zoroastrian?

>>13471482
I don't care if you're the same people or not. Your ideas are the same, and neither of you can think for yourselves. You can't even pay enough attention to understand how obvious you are.

>>13471559
Actually make real impartial responses to my post here (>>13471076) or fuck off. My actual post began with "I agree with your criticism...".

>>13471368
Is destroying your property evil?

>>13471490
Yeah, and I'm moot.

>>13471569
>Your ideas are the same
I don't know what his ideas are. What I was arguing for was cosmological dualism over monotheism. If you had reading comprehension, you would understand this. I don't know how I could be anymore direct with you.

>>13471553
They offered to make him an elect, and he chose not to. You can't just make up history to make it more convenient.

>>13471553
Still great arguments, and make more sense than a lot of other doctrines

>>13471572
I'm not criticizing the Abrahamic God. I am Catholic.

>>13471586
I remember reading differently.
>>13471589
It makes sense for both a God of Light and Prince of Darkness to be preexisting. This prevents the Problem of Evil then.
>>13471598
Why are you so stupid? All I was saying is that the Problem of Evil exists because of monotheism, but it does not exist with Cosmological Dualism.

>>13471625
I am now questioning whether I read correctly that he was offered to be an elect, but I am certain that neither was he denied it. He describes the thinking process relatively clearly; having asked many questions of those around him, they told him Faustus would answer the questions. He was deeply disappointed with the answers Faustus gave him, and then began to question the entire system. In this period, he began to interact with other thinkers, who were neither Christian nor Manichaean, and it was this thinking which caused him to reject the doctrine. The more he learned of Christianity, the more he renounced Manichaeism.

>all I am saying
Cool, but that had nothing to do with what I was saying, or what I was responding to. You seem to think I am someone else.

This thread was moved to >>>/his/6936255