/lit/ - Literature

>>13455010
take the hegel pill, no matter what you say consciousness is, spirituality will always founded on the truth THAT x, y, z... produce this thing we call mind

What do you even mean by "spirituality"?

>>13455036
The belief in the existence of a non material transcendent reality.

>>13455091
And what does "material" mean?

>>13455010
So what kind of combination of matter is spirituality, and is it included in the package?
Take DMT and mushrooms before you spout such nonsense.

>>13455128
The world created as a result of elementary particles interractions

>>13455167
>Take DMT and mushrooms before you spout such nonsense.

Fooling my brain into feeling good about fairy tales disgusts me.

>>13455010

>>13455091
Read some pop cosmology, unironically does the trick for me. X being wrong doesn't mean Y and Z are right or -X or etc I dunno. People shoehorn cynicism and nihilism and nothingness into the absence of God because they assume that's the opposite and must be true. Imo.

>>13455176
you've been fooled into thinking sobriety is the default and therefore most "correct" receptivity because it is the most continuous

>>13455176
Machine elves ain't no fairy tales, friend. And neither are real faeries.

Chaos magick

>>13455168
how can elementary particle interactions give rise to consciousness? and since they clearly do, that's clearly not the whole picture, is it?

>>13455198
using psychedelic drugs for "spirituality" is spiritual materialist new age nihilist nonsense

>>13455168
What about subatomic shite?

>>13455167
>So what kind of combination of matter is spirituality

Until now I thought that there was something ,a god, a force, hiding behind the curtain of reality, letting himself noticed but not seen.

Now I realized that there is nothing behind the curtain and that there was nothing but the wind blowing it.

>>13455026

>>13455206
then feel free to stare at a wall until you starve because any alteration of consciousness is clearly and axiomatically "false" as you say

Not /lit/ you underaged retard. Ask Yahoo answers instead.

>>13455206
Was Plato a spiritual materialist new age nihilist? He is widely believed to be a mystery cultists and hence psychoactive user...

>>13455219
yup, I think Zizek's materialist dualism is more tenable than baby bitch reddit materialism

>>13455211
God is discloses himself by his non-disclosure.

you have much to learn. get to readin'

>>13455211
materialism is substance metaphysics and therefore an unfalsifiable assumption/pure conjecture.
Also belief in a god isn't the only alternative to materialism. There are non-theistic, non-materialist spiritual traditions

>>13455205
Consciousness evolved from more primitive forms of awareness present throughout the animal realm.

>>13455222
>any alteration of consciousness is clearly and axiomatically "false" as you say
I don't think any alteration of consciousnss is "false," whatever that means. I think that our sober reality is illusory as it is, why bother making it more illusory and adding more hallucinations with drugs?

>>13455010
https://cosmosmagazine.com/mathematics/how-your-brain-works-in-11-dimensions

Your brain isn't as simple as you think. Materialism doesn't even hold up simply because there are more than 4 dimensions and time itself is an illusion. The reality behind this is so unimaginable you may as well call it God.

>>13455211
>there was nothing but the wind blowing it.
Now you're using the wind (motion and force of all the particles / waves that make the atmosphere).
So what causes the force behind spirituality, anon? Particles? So spirituality is particle physics.
Whoa.

If you decide that Everything = Something, then Something won't lose any of the qualities Everything had. Duh.
You just want a simplified world; one fitting your current mindstate, though alternatives are around and require value judgments and hierarchies to evaluate; yet you go around denouncing psychedelics.
Kid, what is imagination, creativity, color, truth?

>>13455232
The presumption of materialism would be falsifiable by the existence of god and the supernatural.

>>13455206
Yes, those shamans and the entheogens they've used for millennia are certainly "spiritual materialist new age nihilist nonsense".

>>13455261
1 + 1 = 2
1 + 1 = 3
Both are physically true, as in, they have a physical structure. Both refer to non-physical ideas, in which 'falsehood' even exists.

>>13455243
How do species successfully go up or down in chromosomes? What is the driving force, because survival of the fittest doesn't cut it and is only a partial explaination. Something is causing life to become more and more complex and it isn't operating in the observable universe.

>>13455244
How do you know drugs make it "more" illusory, as opposed to equally or less illusory? The tagline of DMT experiences are that it's "more real than reality", for example.

>>13455176
>feeling good

>>13455167
>>13455176
>>13455198
>>13455206
>>13455232
psychedelics can be interesting for recreationally exploring one's psyche and for breaking down old paradigms to make one more open minded to new spiritual possibilities, but on their own they're not that great for real spiritual insight. In pretty much all cases you forget the majority of your "insight" a few days after the trip even if you record them, and I've seen a lot of people get trapped in the "one more trip and I'll get the answer" mindset where they keep tripping and taking higher doses since they think if they just go a little deeper they'll discover the secrets of the universe or something.
Try them once or twice if you like, but I don't think they are good for long-term spiritual practice (if you can even call it that) at all. Try a real spiritual tradition.

>>13455026
No way OP is way too far gone for Hegel

>>13455091
See, never gonna make it

>>13455176
>Fooling my brain
Altering you by altering your brain. Different patterns; what's the unifying structure or the 'correct alignment'? Soul?

>>13455270
>>13455251

Invalidating materialism would require to proove that a materialistic reasoning is impossible via a counter-counter-example.

Yet there isnt a single phenomenon of this world that isnt potentially explainable through the materialistic interpretation

>>13455261
The supernatural would be (is) natural if it existed (it does)...

>>13455313
>Yet there isnt a single phenomenon of this world that isnt potentially explainable through the materialistic interpretation
Including spirituality, God and all other potential software / gateway / signal link system.

>>13455313
>Yet there isnt a single phenomenon of this world that isnt potentially explainable through the materialistic interpretation
The same goes for an idealistic interpretation, and many other substance metaphysics.
All substance metaphysics are intellectual wankery

>>13455312
You are fooling your brain into thinking your experience is meaningfully when in fact it is meaningless. The accounts of people believing for a brief moment they found the hidden meaning of the universe during a high ,only to loose it when coming down are countless.

>>13455313
You can't even visualize a hypercube. To me metaphysics is the unknown forces operating up to the 14th dimension. We are fucking ants.

>>13455342
>You are fooling your brain into thinking your experience is meaningfully when in fact it is meaningless.
What's the difference?

>>13455342
>when in fact it is meaningless
What fact states that? Your software came to that conclusion. Change the OS and see if that remains. Nihilism is self-defeating, and will be replaced.

>>13455342
If everything is meaningless then you are free to create your own meaning or to participate in the meaning of your culture or humanity at large.

>>13455372
>If everything is meaningless then you are free to create your own meaning
Don't think that's possible, but one can certainly discover or have values.

>>13455344
>Le hasard a-t-il un sens? Vous avez 4 heures.

I ve done enough stupid 16p dissertations in my prepa years.

>>13455228
>>13455268
>implying there's no difference between Shamans who have spiritual practices that extend far beyond the use of psychoactives vs some domesticated Westerner tripping with his buddies on acid on weekends

>>13455380
>I've done enough
According to an illusion that declares meaning on things.
>No, this would be a waste of meaningless time!
You're insane.

>>13455295
Taking psychedelics sacramentally can be quite powerful. I trip once a year and have been having consistently deeper insight each time. It is like revisiting the eternal mystery to keep my mind ever eager for future discoveries. Obviously just doing them to get high or too frequently is foolish but it is equally foolish to discount their power.

Monism

>>13455390
>meaning is only possible for non-whites
No racism

>>13455394
>Obviously just doing them to get high or too frequently is foolish
Wrong

>>13455401
I thought the blame was more on public education.

>>13455198
Excellent post. Drugs are degenerate but this is still a totally true point.

>>13455394
>consistently deeper insight each time
How about you reveal some of that insight?
Also, do you have any sort of spiritual practice outside of your yearly trip?

>>13455378
One must first realize that his consciousness itself is the product of the individuals contemporary conjecture, his culture and his ancestors. As the belief that one is born where he is born, tge way he is born by chance is not only false but destructive.

>>13455010
What the hell happened to /lit/, this thread was made by someone who’s never read a book in his life, and almost all the responses are based schizo posters... this board has gone to shit

>>13455424
>How about you reveal some of that insight?
Syntax is different. You'll mostly get tautologies, truisms, obscure comparisons, poetry, - the type of 'spiritual hogwash' you ignore.
It lets you not ignore those things because of a habit. It makes you see things as they are, with less automatic filters.

>>13455344
It is rather unfair to assume that the sensation of meaningfulness cant be hijacked.

>>13455460
It is also rather crude not seeing 'meaninglessness' as a parasitic god wanting to devour its followers.

>>13455447
https://youtu.be/F1B9Fk_SgI0
thread theme

>>13455198
This. In a world where everyone's default state was a DMT-addled brain, the sober reality we know of could represent an "altered state of consciousness".There is no such thing as a "correct" perception of time, for example - only perceptions of time. People on DMT experience forever in five minutes, people on weed (a drug I can speak of personally) experience one minute as if it were five sober minutes, and so on. All are simply varying perceptual shades, none being capably argued as "more accurate" perceptions.

>>13455502
In such a world everybody would die of starvation.

If placebo heals you, you have been truly healed.
If truth is meaningless, the alternatives may not be.

>>13455502
yea but that doesn't mean psychedelics lead to any lasting spiritual insight
proof: go to a music festival and talk to some of the people there

>>13455010
>perceives the world through his senses
>sees patterns in his perceptions and notice they match those of others
>hypothesises the existence of something he will never see, touch or smell - matter - to explain those perceptions
>cannot explain how the arrangement of “matter” could produce his conscious experience
>decides that his conscious experience is an illusion and that only matter is real
>logically concludes that everything is meaningless

Holy shit materialists are dumb.

>>13455533
or better yet, browse any psychedelic forum like 420chan's /psy/ or some of the psychedelic forums on reddit
They're clearly full of a bunch of clueless burnouts, and anytime someone mentions anything remotely philosophical or related to a real spiritual tradition they sperg out into a rage of shit like "uhhh anyone who says they know anything doesn't know shit lol people can't accept that we can't know anything uhhh I don't mindlessly follow dogma lol uhhh but we are just apes produced by matter btw lol"

>>13455562
I find that more intelligent people have worse trips.

>>13455533
Real spiritual traditions don't lead to much insight either. Try talking to a random pleb at church. Or don't. I wouldn't want to.

Thread theme
https://youtu.be/etJWhg5hh2k

OP, read Bernardo Kastrup.

>>13455589
>Real spiritual traditions don't lead to much insight either. Try talking to a random pleb

>>13455605
>stained glass = insight
So this is the fabled power of your brain on traditionalism...

>>13455561
Best post

>>13455589
>Try talking to a random pleb at church.
Boomer normies going to 21st century church is hardly a "real spiritual tradition"

>>13455614
I show you inspired art and you see a crude methodology.
I spite plebs and you become one.

>>13455198
>sobriety is the default

It is the default... what in the fuck are you thinking... Are infants not born sober? Do aspirants not abstain from all intoxication?

>>13455645
>It is the default... what in the fuck are you thinking
Emotions are unnatural.

>>13455623
Try talking to a random sandnigger or a pooinloo at a mosque or temple. Same difference. Same equivalence of talking to a music fest pleb.
>>13455627
Lol. Aestheticization of metaphysics is just crude fascism.

>>13455571
You were probably not in a good state of mind

>>13455645
Us humans have DMT in our bodies. We simply increase the dose if we want to trip, pray or meditate. Maybe even dream.
How sober are you, if ever?

>>13455571
>i'm depressed cause i am intelligent
Brainlet

>>13455654
>Lol. Aestheticization of metaphysics is just crude fascism.

>>13455010
Psychedelics are like fast food spirituality for low attention span plebs obsessed with immediate gratification who can't take their spirituality unless it comes with flashy colours, bodily euphoria and over-stimulation of serotonin receptors.
>"Well not everyone has the time to meditate on a rock for 20 years"
Is what you'll always hear as their excuse for their laziness. And that is what it is: pure laziness to explore any real disciplined spirituality beyond their profane kicks that make them feel like they've discovered the meaning of everything until they come down and are back to the same degenerate lifestyle as before.

>>13455685
The dalai lama can't even reach nirvana and you expect some random plebs on 4chan to become ascetics and join a commune so they can meditate all day every day just because some guy who was probably lying says that that is how you confirm the existence of spirituality when there is an easily available tool at hand? Even Evola says drugs are useful in the kali yuga

>>13455685
They are also a type of hard shove out of any comfort zone.
>fast food
Yeah, to beings that last infinities. If a mortal wants any insight, they must use their entire life and more to seeking out spiritual wisdom. Once the hunger is there, you'll go for every good source.
Plus, a life changing mushroom trip is not something people have a need to repeat.

>>13455677
Ironic

>>13455699
>become ascetics and join a commune so they can meditate all day every day
The "20 years meditating on a rock" is ridiculous hyperbole - it does not take pure asceticism to explore spirituality. Just pick a fucking real tradition.
Also, afaik the Dalai Lama doesn't reach Nirvana because he is supposed to be a Bodhisattva who delays enlightenment to remain in Samsara and help other beings.

>>13455705
>Plus, a life changing mushroom trip is not something people have a need to repeat.
If you're the same guy as before you're shifting goalposts. People in this thread are clearly arguing that regular psychedelic trips are sufficient for spirituality and can accomplish similar if not the same things as actual spiritual practices.

>>13455661
As soon as you morons mention DMT I know not to give your input any credence. I've actually smoked it, and no, it did not change my life forever. I still have to endure the travail of existence, of mastering the workings of reality through my mind, guided by my spirit - I still have to live in the world as a conscious and alert person who can labor to fulfill tasks.

You and people like you become frothing zealots at the very thought of "LE SPIRIT MOLECULE LE 20th DIMENSION" but couldn't have been arsed to pray, to meditate, to give heartfelt thanks, to be temperate in your eating habits, to exercise for a more spiritually conducive whole, to atone for your misdeeds, etc. before becoming stupefied by an extract. You smoke DMT because you want to immerse yourself in the higher realms, not having done any sort of metaphysical labor to do so. You are ontologically not even fit to abide in such realms, so you take the satanist-chemists way to experience "The Other." You are materialists by any other name. If you need a substance to be spiritually attuned, you are not spiritual at all, but attached to an extraneous element which has stymied your spiritual development.

>>13455716
https://skepticmeditations.com/2015/05/04/evidence-against-breathlessness-and-samadhi/

>>13455605
Absolutely gorgeous artwork, and I actually visited a local Church earlier today, where I saw more stained-glass art. That said, I'm not Christian and he's correct regarding Abrahamic religion at least: they only know what they've memorized and interpreted of their doctrines, and have little comprehension of true spiritual metaphysics or realities. When Christians take DMT, it doesn't typically lead them to realize they were God all along, but rather that demons really DO exist, which they interpret machine elves, jesters and all the other species they saw as being.

>>13455450
Truly based. This is why I smoke weed.

>>13455723
Why do they have to be mutually exclusive? And how do you know every other path but yours is wrong? Are you all-knowing? Or sadly trying to larp as a believer in some "all-knowing" scriptural tradition?

>>13455708
>Symbols are fascism
>Archetypes are fascism
>Inspiration is fascism
>Using other syntax than written word is fascism

>>13455723
I've never argued for 'regular', though I did note the post.
You claimed them fast food, which I take as a simple, unhealthy repeat process. Psilocybin is healthy and not necessarily a repeat process.

>>13455727
>satanist-chemists
Mhm. What about the soma of the vedas? There's lots of evidence of psychoactive use in the early christian church too...

>>13455727
>As soon as you morons mention DMT I know not to give your input any credence.
We have it in us, as God intended.

>>13455742
I haven't been shilling any particular tradition at all - only that picking a practice is superior to not having any.
I can acknowledge that the various spiritual traditions of the world produce mystical experiences and even lasting insights regardless of which one I think is "correct."

>>13455744
True spirituality is not making better art but being a better person. Psychedelics help some achieve it though we all fall short of perfection. There are plenty of highly wise being who advocate psychedelics or at least have used them in the past. If you have used them in the past should you not stop pretending as though they were not useful in the time and place for bringing you to where you are now?

>>13455733
Plebs of every culture are useless in terms of insight. There's a reason they are the lower class.

>>13455769
>If you have used them in the past should you not stop pretending as though they were not useful in the time and place for bringing you to where you are now?
Not him, but basically this: >>13455295

>>13455758
>I can acknowledge that the various spiritual traditions of the world produce mystical experiences and even lasting insights regardless of which one I think is "correct."
So you're larping as a larper or too afraid to tell me your beliefs. Sad.

One of the first steps in any spiritual tradition is being less judgemental and egotistical. Not doing a good job by trash talking psychedelic users.

>>13455520
Imagine everything else were adjusted accordingly such that we survived and lived under such a mode.

>>13455533
I never said so. I believe they can, but shouldn't be relied on for such. More useful as a way of inducing spirituality within types who would otherwise lack any conception of it i.e nihilistic atheistic materialistic individuals. But it can definitely bring lasting, fundamental spiritual insights, but it can't permanently alter one's state of being nor bring enlightenment to them. Dedicated spiritual practice is necessary for such, which the drug can help initiate.

>>13455243

Lol. You haven't proved anything to yourself because your presumptuous premise is based on incomplete knowledge. Even if you do not believe in the spiritual realm, you cannot deny that it is superior to the material realm --- that is to say, that the spiritual cannot originate in the material and that the material, can only, at best, be a transmitter-conduit for the spiritual. That is also to say, that man cannot have originated in the material as an animal, but instead has descended into materiality from a spiritual estate. Beast cannot become man, but man can become degenerated into a beastly existence. Schuwaller De Lubicz describes man as the "fixed point," a form of life between spirit and matter in his book Nature Word. I recommend you read it.

The transcendent is beyond materiality, to say the transcendent cannot be bound by materiality. To say that human consciousness evolved from more primitive forms of awareness originated among primordial animals is a lie. The truth is that we have fallen from a higher dimension and are trapped here, until the spark of divinity within us is galvanized, and we are made free by our own doing.

>>13455770
That's really mean, anon.

>>13455777
I don't need to tell you my beliefs to make the argument I've been making - they are entirely irrelevant

>>13455780
>More useful as a way of inducing spirituality within types who would otherwise lack any conception of it i.e nihilistic atheistic materialistic individuals.
>>13455780
>but it can't permanently alter one's state of being nor bring enlightenment to them. Dedicated spiritual practice is necessary for such, which the drug can help initiate.
This I can completely agree with. I think we are on the same page more than I realized

>>13455794
So what spiritual insight do you have that psychedelic users lack? Surely you speak from experience? Because your broad appeals seem largely incoherent to me...

>>13455752
Early Christian fathers have described even getting drunk off wine as debauchery. "Soma" is in this current time, dopamine-flooders.

>>13455755
SO THEN WE SMOKE IT TOO LEL

>>13455806
I have yet to see psychonauts proprose any sort of spiritual insight themselves that I could even try to refute in the first place, since I've only ever seen them say "it can't be put into words just take acid and you'll get it"

>>13455806
Uses of substances are attached to them, idiot. The abstainer is free from this weakness.

>>13455807
>SO THEN WE SMOKE IT TOO LEL
Yes, just like we have variations in cortisol, dopamine etc. levels, we have variations in DMT levels, and for various reasons we have habits, behaviors, rituals to change and interact with these.
Breathe in, breathe out.

>>13455807
Know nothing

>>13455784
that is such a cute sword

>>13455010
>consume me
Quite the opposite has happened, anon. You have escaped the fire and are now whole again

>>13455817
Kinda like "just meditate bro"
>>13455827
Honestly, that is more of a strength than a weakness. The abstainer is forced to labor without purpose. The user is free in comparison.

>>13455851
>just meditate bro
Have you not seen the many huge threads on this board the past few months discussing the metaphysics of various Christian traditions, Dharmic religions...etc?
It has hardly been "just meditate bro"

>>13455769
>True spirituality is not making better art
I'm not fan-clubbing for best artstyle of the ages. Spirituality is the reason art itself exists in any qualities.
>but being a better person
Which is art, and can be achieved by art. Better is a meaningless term if it lacks aesthetics.

Evil looks the part. Just look at jews.

>>13455835
And you'll stay that way, if you keep to your drugs. Narrow is the way.

>>13455848
Why would you bother posting such snide remarks in the middle of a discussion if you are not going to address these points?

>>13455851
>>Honestly, that is more of a strength than a weakness.

Earthly attachment is not a strength.

>>The abstainer is forced to labor without purpose

Faith is vision, vision is seeing, seeing is believing, believing is acting. Faith is confidence in one's actions. How can one be without purpose if he has faith?

>>The user is free in comparison.

No he isn't.

>>13455201
People who suffer sleep paralysis claim to see an "intruder" but there is no real intruder, it's just a shared imagination. Same with the machine elves, they just exist inside our minds.

>>13455010
consciousness is part of the beyond material plane of existence retard

>>13455910
>snide
I wasn't in your conversation, nor even read your comment there, and was genuinely praising the picture you attached. It's a very adorable sword.

>>13455922
The existence of internal hallucinations does not make every unfamiliar reality encountered fall under such a category.

>>13455168
>matter is matter
The brains on this prick

>>13455010
Information processing IS Rigpa. This is all you need.

>>13455807
>Early Christian fathers have described even getting drunk off wine as debauchery.
Some. Other early church traditions were mushroom cults.

>>13455922
The material reality of a thing is not actually a refutation of it's spiritual reality.

>>13455864
>racism
Never gonna make it

>>13455010
nui

>>13455010
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBbFuudKAic

>>13458852
The problem with this picture is that the brain is inextricably pink, having color like every other item of vision. People mistakenly believe that qualia is a secondary quality of a primary phenomena, when really they can never escape it from the vantage they view reality from. Without color, or shape, a visual object vanishes entirely. Really silly to observe people who deny the existence of qualia, specifically something like color, while simultaneously believing in realities they consider "objective", such as the brain, which itself is wholly cover in qualia.