/lit/ - Literature

Ishmael by Dan brown

>>13413521
>animism
I get deism, but why animism? It’s just primitive religion. Are you gonna start a tribe and live in a cave too?
Also, why are you done with Christianity?

>>13413521
Deism and animism are unsound, read the CTMU and embrace holotheism a.k.a. logic

> Self Disclosure of God by William Chittick

>>13413521
Vedanta, Madhyamaka and German Idealism

>>13413529
am I missing something or are you just posting bullshit?
>>13413532
>animism
I don't necessarily believe it, but it has a certain philosophical beauty, doesn't it? that everything that was alive is now dead and has become one with the world again? it's interesting
>Christianity
I'm done dealing with the dissonance that comes with following a religion that:
>is polytheistic but considers itself monotheistic
>follows a two-volume sacred text where each volume teaches morals that are inconsistent with each other and, sometimes, themselves
>considers certain actions to be sinful, but also allowing those sins to be forgiven (regardless of severity) if the sinner regrets it a lot
there's more, but that's a good start. for the record, though, I do find the teachings of Jesus to be morally sound, even if I can no longer justify worshiping him as a deity
>>13413540
>>13413545
>>13413548
thanks

>>13413521
How is atheism a gigantic cope?
>>13413562
You think some sins shouldn't be forgiven?

>>13413602
>atheism
it's basically "I don't like modern mainstream religion so all of spirituality must be false," not to mention that science cannot explain the origin of the universe beyond "it exploded lol"
>sins
I hardly consider myself the authority on what is and isn't unforgivable, but it seems absurd that someone could, for instance, rape and murder twenty people, have a "come to Jesus" moment, and then go to heaven with all the people who didn't rape and murder twenty people

>>13413521
>but atheism is still a gigantic cope
Lmao WHAT?

Atheism is simply not being religious. How is that a cope retard?

>>13413643
>but it seems absurd that someone could, for instance, rape and murder twenty people, have a "come to Jesus" moment, and then go to heaven with all the people who didn't rape and murder twenty people
It’s no different than letting the best man on Earth into heaven. We’re all sinners, far away from God’s righteousness. We can only be saved through Jesus, who can forgive ALL sins. The reason we still follow the law is because it reminds us just how much we sin, and why we need faith in Jesus.

When you say you are “done” with Christianity, what does that mean? Did you consider yourself Christian? Were you baptized? Did you pray to God? How long were you Christian?

>>13413643
Cringe
>>13413652
Based

>>13413643
>I don't like modern mainstream religion so all of spirituality must be false,"
Yes retard, all spirituality is mumbo jumbo bullshit.
>not to mention that science cannot explain the origin of the universe
Yet
>beyond "it exploded lol"
More of an explanation than religion ever provided

>>13413521
>I'm done with Christianity
See you in a week

>>13413521
>deism
its virtually the same as atheism except you can't get called a fedora.

>>13413652
>>13413656
I knew that word choice was going to bait people, I knew it would derail the thread, but I did it anyway. goddamn it, past me. just consider me uncomfortable with atheism and we'll leave it at that
>>13413655
>it's no different
imagine thinking that the average person on the street is as sinful as a serial murder/rapist
>"done" with Christianity
I was a baptized, confirmed, and active Lutheran for twenty years since my childhood. lately I've been less active due to doubts, and now I'm just done
>>13413657
*tips*
>>13413660
oh hey Margret, yeah I'll see you next Sunday, I'll bring the bagels this time :)
>>13413664
if I understand it correctly, then no, since atheists deny all spirituality, while deists only deny divine intervention

>>13413671
>imagine thinking that the average person on the street is as sinful as a serial murder/rapist
Compared to someone like Jesus. everyone is a sinner. No distinction needed. Read Pensées dude

>>13413671
>just consider me uncomfortable with atheism
Why though?

Because it isn't a convenient magical explanation for things? Because you can't just make vague statements about shit to sound interesting? Because it's too hard to look at reality?

>>13413671
>*tips*
Nice argument you delusional moron

>>13413671
>if I understand it correctly, then no, since atheists deny all spirituality, while deists only deny divine intervention
what is the point? It's practically the same as atheism.

>>13413687
alright, you know what? i'm convinced. show me all of the evidence for this "atheism".

>>13413696
It’s just the rejection of all spiritual claims it doesn’t need evidence.

>>13413681
sure, why not, can't promise it's going to change anything though, since the forgiveness of sins isn't my only gripe with Christian theology
>>13413687
>magical explanation
lol
>vague statements
lolololol
>too hard to look at reality
maybe ;)
>>13413693
nice comeback, it was very logically sound and completely deconstructed my skepticism towards atheism
>>13413694
that's like saying that Spanish is practically the same as Italian; you're not wrong for comparing them, but you still sound like a retard
>>13413696
this
>>13413699
lolololololololololololololololololol

>>13413696
>show me all of the evidence for this "atheism"
What are you on about?

Atheism isn't a belief or doctrine, it's simply a word to describe someone who isn't religious. Like how soldiers describe non soldiers as civilians. This is why you sound like a fucking retard, you're just playing hopscotch with one delusional belief after another. You're not in pursuit of truth, just convenient lies. And you'll handwave all this away with "b-but spirituality!". It doesn't exist retard, there isn't a single thing in existence that even hints at "spirituality" being a real thing.

Science is barely a couple hundred years old, the earth is billions of years old. You have to give them some fucking time to explain the biggest question in existence: where did the universe come from. Religion is far older yet hasn't offered up 1/1000000th the knowledge science has.

>>13413710
but i am in pursuit of truth! show me the evidence that spirituality is invalid! please!

>>13413706
>that's like saying that Spanish is practically the same as Italian
what does that even mean? OP said Atheism is cope, Deism is simply the same thing (practically speaking as it is merely a intellectual distinction) inasmuch as it denies intervention as does atheism.

>>13413716
If you are in pursuit of the truth, don't hold prejudices against certain conclusions. You can be more skeptical of certain attitudes than others, obviously, but it seems like you do not even want to bother with non-theistic models of the world.

>>13413726
please! i am begging you! please give me the evidence! i want the truth!

>>13413716
>show me the evidence that spirituality is invalid! please!
Ok, prove to me vampires aren't real. Prove to me ghosts and witches aren't real.

That's how retarded asking me to prove spirituality isn't real is. It just isn't you fucking child. You can't just make up complete bullshit and act like because it can't be disproven clearly it's a valid belief. It's no different from me believing in faries you fucking idiot.

>>13413710
not him but
>there isn't a single thing in existence
except, you know, religion
>>13413722
>OP said Atheism is cope
and then I retracted that statement
>he still thinks it's the same thing
ok buddy
>>13413716
>>13413726
>>13413729
>>13413742
jfc my thread is shit

>>13413729
I don't want to come off euphoric here, since I don't really have any animosity toward religion, but the main 'evidence' for the non-religious perspective would be the absence of evidence for other metaphysical claims. Personally, my position is that God may or may not exist; I'm not wedded to strict theism or strict atheism, but the individual claims made by each religious tradition fail to convince.

>>13413742
just one piece of evidence! please, i am begging you! i need the truth! please, enlighten me!

>>13413710
You fucking retard. Science can't, by definition, ever answer "the biggest question in existence". It is limited entirely within the realm of phenomena and can't ever offer metaphysical knowledge. The ONLY thing through which we can infer metaphysical knowledge is logic and reason, i.e. philosophy (and, as it is inferred rather, this knowledge is not "real" knowledge). The kinds of metaphysical conclusions (inferred) that Kant, Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, and Spinoza (all 4 counts obviously debatable) etc. arrived at can be found in ancient religious teachings as "truths" thousands of years ago. The perennial Truth that perenniallists point to is in fact this very one. Noumena = Brahman = God = Atman = Self = Phenomena. Such a conclusion can only be reached rationally, not empirically/scientifically (how the ancients concluded so, I do not know).

>>13413771
only phenomena exist

>>13413771
>perennialism
oh no no no no. reminder that every religious tradition you pilfer for your hodgepodge "ultimate truth" hates you.

>>13413771
It is also possible that such knowledge can be achieved through spirituality/meditation/transcendent activity (as an explanation for the ancient origins of the thought reached pre-philosophically), but it is, for me, currently, impossible to create a rational argument for that possibility.

>>13413744
>except, you know, religion
Which is nothing but horseshit.

>>13413749
based, keep doing your thing
>>13413771
>You fucking retard. [...] not "real" knowledge).
you got it
>The kinds of [...] I do not know.
what in the fuck did I just read
>>13413785
ok buddy

>>13413643
The thing is that you have to repent for your sins. If you genuinely regret doing that, you are already receiving your punishment every time you recall it.

Also
>rape
There's worse crimes. I'd go as far as to say I'd rather be fugged than be beaten.

>>13413781
Unknowable

>>13413782
Based and redpilled. I'm not a perenniallist in any religious sense. For all intents and purposes I might be classed as an atheist, pantheist, autotheist (not sure if a real term) depending on the way one interprets my metaphysical view. This doesn't mean that the fundamental Perenniallist principle that all religions point to one ultimate truth (Kant's multiplicity, Schopie's Will, Spinoza's pantheism, Nietzsche's eternal return [as an obvious condition of the aforementioned]: Brahman = God = Self etc.) is in any way untrue.

How about reading actual philosophy instead of religion meant for laypeople? Start with Meditations on First Philosophy by Descartes

>>13413744
>he still thinks it's the same thing
>doesn't know how to read
not gonna make it.

>>13413643
>science cannot explain the origin of the universe
But you can?

>>13413521
You should get interested in islam (quranism).

>>13413706
>nice comeback, it was very logically sound and completely deconstructed my skepticism
You goddamn retard, literally all you wrote was the word "tips."

>>13413800
fine, I admit defeat, now I want to leave Christianity behind just a little bit less, which still leaves me wanting to leave it
>>13413806
okay
>>13413812
yikes
>>13413816
nope
>>13413818
I was going to read the Quran anyway, any specific recs for other reading or for translations?
>>13413821
you goddamned retard, literally all you wrote was the sentence "Nice argument you delusional moron"

>>13413797
>what in the fuck did I just read
Which part needs elucidating?

>>13413843
I don't even know, I'm completely lost. any recs on perennialism so I can fix that?

be Catholic

>>13413897
I think just getting a good understanding of Kant and Schopenhauer's metaphysics is the most important thing about gathering metaphysical "truth". Like I said, many many ancient religions found this same truth through no obvious philosophising, and the only important thing the perennialists ever did was point it out (in my opinion). If you are, however, interested in perennialism, The Perennial Philosophy or something by René Guenon (Introduction to Hinduism, probably) is the most obvious starting point, but, I would suggest just reading the Wikipedia entry so that you know what perennialists are basically trying to uncover and then go ahead and read the actual religious texts that contain those "truths", coming to your own conclusions as to what actually matters and what doesn't (I would suggest reading them from an almost Nietzschean perspective as a sort of filter). My favourite religious texts are the Upanishads, the Baghavad Gita, the Quran and the New Testament.

>>13413521
>deism
>hurrr God is powerful enough to create the world but not powerful enough to interact with it in any way because I say so durr

>animism
>imma worship a rock

There's nothing sadder than a fallen Christian.

>>13413562
>is polytheistic but considers itself monotheistic
>follows a two-volume sacred text where each volume teaches morals that are inconsistent with each other and, sometimes, themselves
>considers certain actions to be sinful, but also allowing those sins to be forgiven (regardless of severity) if the sinner regrets it a lot

I doubt you were ever Christian at all, or you'd at least be familiar with the basics of the religion. You're concern trolling. I'm guessing you're a militant atheist false flagging and you're throwing up "but not atheism" as a smokescreen.

>>13413908
>be the fourth worst denomination
>>13413961
thanks
>>13413972
there's nothing sadder than religious strawmen
>>13413978
notice that you didn't actually attempt to refute me, instead falling on the good ol' strategy of "this has to be bait, nuh uh, it's impossible that you're serious, lalalalala, I'm not listening because this hurts my feelings"

thanks everyone who replied seriously, I'm going to bed now, if this thread is still alive when I get up I'll continue then

>>13413716
That spiritual belief is unjustified because there is no evidence to believe it. You are making the claim.

>>13413562
if you are searching for internal consistency within any religion you are going to be disappointed

>incite rebellion and disobedience against the Romans with whom you share a common enemy
>condemn people to be tortured for all eternity because they don't believe your dad is real
>convince 12 men to abandon all of their possessions so they can follow you around all day and obey your edicts
>never leave any evidence that you even existed whatsoever
>still praised by the non-religious as "a pretty good guy"

What seems to cause this utterly bluepilled line of thought? The only difference between Jesus and L. Ron Hubbard/Charles Manson/etc. is the amount of people still believing their BS.

>>13414016
Rate the denominations

>>13414275
Stop being cucked by church thought and read the Dead Sea scrolls

>>13413978
>durrr the trinity isn’t polytheistic, god is one being in three shells
Except polytheistic religions tend to believe all the gods are one god in many shells so I guess they aren’t polytheistic as well

>>13413562
Drop trinitarian Christianity and paedobaptism and problem is solved

>>13414316
I deny the trinity, Aquinas and Augustine couldn't work it out and said just take it on faith. Christianity is fine it was just cucked by forced merging of Greek thought

>>13414328
God is actually one being in infinite shells

>>13413521
Bro, just be like qui gon jinn. Pray and let god show you the way.

i just cant get passed the whole eternal hell thing
and the "either believe or go to hell forever " thing
you can't force yourself to believe in something, and eternal hell is some bullshit

>shopping for religious beliefs like you are at tesco
Sad. You have been abandoned by your god and now you search for a new master to take you in.
He wont come to you and nothing will reveal itself to you.
It would be easier to find your own meaning you know.

>>13414340
It’s not about believing or not it’s about absolving yourself of your sinful/karmaic debt.

Jesus did not come for the goodnof society, he came for the sinners to give them a path out of the suffering (not eternal, Mathew 18 proves this) their sins will wrought upon them.

You will be given the fruit of your actions, we all were unless we have a being to absolve our penalties and vouch for us.

Vedic texts describe how a god can absolve the debts on those on earth through their incarnated actions. I cannot even imagine how much debt was repayed through the crucifiction
A god came down to provide the worst sinners with a path to redemption and either attack him for his sacrifice or use his words to spread violence and hate against others.
Are you willing to handle your own debt?

>>13414396
*we either

>>13413521
>but atheism is still a gigantic cope.
Nice cope.

>>13414396
Oh no it's the perennial christian dude

>>13414396
im too asthmatic to give a proper reply
what would you recommend one does in life?
i do not believe one religion superior to any other, but feel there is definitely some sort of 'truth' out there
for now i just read and try to be good, i will start meditating and perhaps praying soon

>>13413521
Study traditions you fucking moron. You know that shit Christianity worked really hard to destroy, pervert, and keep from you?

>all the atheist midwits getting defensive

>>13414334
Infinity is a horrid concept that isn't real and it doesn't explain God otherwise God would have to encompass sin and everything would be holy

>>13414425
I’m not but obviously it’s true

>>13414433
Learn to forgive yourself, make each day better than the last. Create positive relationships with others. These sound like meme answers but I’ve found their vitally important in improving your life, especially the first. Think deeply on your failures and attempt to resolve them in your mind. It is much easier to resolve your debt here than after death. You know those regrets that pop randomly into your head when you are alone? That is your soul asking you to process through these actions. Otherwise you will have to process through them im the next like through purification (the “fires” of hell)

>>13414496
Must I go through ritual? I don't see why I need a man to sprinkle water on my head to rid myself of sin

>>13414450
Everything is holy silly dualist.
I’m sorry you cannot notice it

>>13414502
Ritual is ritual. We do it align our being with other not because it is some deep metaphysical truth

>>13413521
Let me tell you a story.

A man is born blind and black. Through a simple oversight, it is never mentioned to the child what his skin colour is, and after a period of time, everyone simply assumes he must be aware of his colour. Eventually of course, an errant remark will lead to his realization that he's black.

He'll only know he's black when he realizes it consciously, but all those years, his colour was the same whether or not he realized it.

It's the same way with the religion you seek. Whatever faith you are, you've been that way your whole life, and someday, I know, your eyes will finally see the wings on your back just waiting to guide you.

You can read all the books you want to try "force" yourself into a religion. But what you should really be trying to understand is yourself. That's the only way to figure out what religion you are.

>>13414556
Brilliantly put

Belief isn't something you windowshop you massive tard. Believe what is true rather than what is comforting.

>>13414613
But none of us know what is true

>>13414613
There's nothing comforting about Christianity.

>>13413800
>I'd rather be fugged than be beaten.
Tell that to a woman who got raped you brainlet

>>13414619
Having a God given purpose and eternal salvation to look forward to is comfy compared to the reality which is that we must make our own in the face of eternal obliteration.

>>13414618
Maybe if you're retarded.
If you seek comfort then believe. If you seek knowledge then inquire.

>>13414651
not him but the thought that the majority of my friends and family are going to be in eternal torment isn't very comfy
at least with other faiths they have the chance of rebirth or temporary hell

>>13414613
Our very notion of truth has its roots in the bible.

There is no truth if Christianity isn't true.

>>13414665
A merciful God wouldn't allow such a thing. Not that it matters because God doesn't exist

>>13414671
This is so deeply retarded that I can barely believe anyone would articulate such a thing.

Are you telling me that we had no concept of truth before the bible? What about all of ancient Greek thought you massive pile of steaming excrement

>>13414672
>God doesn't exist
His essence is existence.

He literally has to exist; even if it's just you.

Go halfway through psalms and realize he's talking to you.

>>13414657
My inquiry into the nature of reality has only told me this: nothing that is beyond my senses is knowable, for it lies beyond the world that I can describe with my language. Spirits may or may not exist. God may or may not exist. I may or may not have free will. I may or may not be conscious. It is impossible to know. To deny the exterior is as foolish as to affirm, except the negation exists only as a subversion to the affirmation. Denial means that through your senses you can say something about what is supposedly beyond your senses, but that would mean that somehow your senses can see beyond what is in this world. The black void of the universe is not absence of God, as God has never been told to lie next to us. God lies beyond our language, and therefore cannot be described by it without speaking nonsense... You are wrong for you think you know what you cannot know, just as much as the theist who thinks he knows.

>>13414657
Damn didn’t realize a random /lit/ poster knew the ultimate truth of reality. Thousands of mystics who spent their license in deep contemplation couldn’t find it so please enlighten us

>>13413562
kek you're a brainlet

>>13413521
you didn't even scratch the surface of Christianity, dummy. try again, or go be an animist. and deism is just stupid. like Jefferson's bible.

>>13414684
You're in too deep.
Existence preceeds essence.

>>13413521
>atheism is still a gigantic cope
You don't have to be an atheist, you can find another religion, fine. I don't really consider myself an atheist either. But calling atheism, literal non-belief, a "cope" is the most retarded thing I've heard in a while.

>>13413655
>We’re all sinners, far away from God’s righteousness.
you have battered wife syndrome

>>13414699
You're right; I haven't read Sartre yet.

>>13414702
Christians are like that. They believe we're all sinners even though there's a difference between stealing candy and stealing diamonds

>>13413710
science is your religion

>>13414706
not even that
they think we are born sinners due to the original sin

>>13414708
Y I K E S
I
K
E
S

>>13414691
The ultimate nature of reality is material and naturalistic. This is what all the evidence indicates. The mystics were wasting their time.

>>13413800
Look at how fucked up the psychology of christcucks is. They honest to god start playing pick and choose for how they want to be abused as a demonstration of their faith. You people are fucking sick.

>>13414714
naturalistic yes, materialistic no

>>13414714
not really
mystic practices have benefit even if seen through an entirely materialistic lens

>>13414396
Christianity is fucked up partially because of their insistence on seeing the worst in everybody and insisting that all of creation, especially humans, is fundamentally evil and rife with "sin". Again, you are a battered wife.

>>13414740
Sinners are rife with sin.
Those are who Jesus came for.
Christians decided that meant we were all evil (we are all sinners, sure, but that doesn't at all mean we're evil)

>>13414710
Yes. Even though we have nothing to do with it

daily reminder that the apocalypse of peter does away with the eternal hell problem, but (((they))) don't want you to know about it
despite it being listed as an NT work in the oldest surviving list

>>13414700
cope

>>13413657
>Yes retard, all spirituality is mumbo jumbo bullshit
Fucking retard, scientifically proven that prayer/positive intention effects food far beyond placeo. And thats only the beginning, I'm not even gonna get into shitty metaphysics (yes they are metaphysics) of materialism.

>>13414749
What is sin, and who is a sinner?

>>13414706
is there a moral difference? can you tell what it is? of course you can't.

>>13414761
>scientifically proven that prayer/positive intention effects food
What in the fuck does that even mean?

>>13414766
Well I guess stealing diamonds from Jeff Bezos is barely sin because it's negligible to him. Like stealing candy I guess

I'd just like to point out one thing. There's no requirement for a religion to be consistent. Faith is by definition, beyond reason, so it's no concern if the new testament doesn't correlate with the old.

But seriously, there's an actual logical explanation for that. It's the NEW TESTAMENT. Jesus came along and said: Yeah, all that bullshit about having to slaughter cows at the tabernacle, no, that's old testament, and I have a new testament for you from god that says I'm going to die for your sins so you no longer have to execute your daughters for sins.

>>13414731
You're right, I was speaking hyperbolically and in reference to truth. I meditate myself and have experienced what felt like God consciousness. I categorised it as an interesting subjective experience because that's what it was. If you desire truth however it is attained through rationalism and empiricism.

>>13414779
why did you have to execute daughters for sins in the first place?

>>13414763
Actions that harm others (so no masturbation is not a sin)
A person who harms others

Read the Confessions of St Augustine, OP.

>>13414793
So it's just bad karma? Why do I need jewish fairy tales to educate myself about karma?

>>13414792
It's been a long time, and to be honest, the bible is kind of a crummy book anyway. I might have made that up or be misremembering, but there might be a few situations and I can easily confirm this by googling.

>Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

>>13414556
The analogy leads to an actual correct conclusion and individualism wasn't it

>>13414505
Can you explain?

>>13414556
This is a retarded analogy. He should be able to tell he's black from the smell and obnoxious lip smacking.

>>13414776
As expected. You couldn't.

THOU SHALT NOT STEAL

>>13414842
>"You shall have no other gods before me."
>worships a man as god
>no carved images allowed
>you should die if you work on the sabbath

>>13414823
>>13414835
Well, mister anon, and mister anon, one important thing to understand about analogies, is that they only serve to illustrate a specific point. Do you wish to argue with me about analogies, or about the meaning the analogy conveyed to you?

And mister anon, you certainly look smart and enigmatic when you say that there is another logical conclusion to my argument besides individualism, but will you remain that way when you actually reveal the alternate path to me?

>>13413521
Shopping for a religion is peak /lit/

>>13414866
I don't see why that's a bad thing.
I mean, it would be retarded to pretend to believe something, as some "converts" do, and it's retarded to do the cafeteria approach or be casual about it. But now we have access to so many different religions and philosophies, and so many different religious institutions, that it makes sense to find the one that resonates the most with you, rather than just doing whatever your parents did.

>>13414866
Shopping for literature is way worse, you should just be born knowing exactly which books are good and which aren't. In fact you should be born having already read them - no, in fact, one should be born having already independently composed them. If not you're just a fucking pleb.

>>13413521
>atheism is still a gigantic cope.
No, it's more of a giant fuck it who cares, if anything.
THAT'S the point of this nihilism thing. Faiths are to cope with the lack of clear god given goals. THEY are the cope. Atheists learn to live for themselves or some other whatever, it doesn't matter, it's up to them. You wanna call any of their self set goals a cope, fine. Deal with it.

>>13414929
cope

>>13414866
This.
>>13414929
Cope


Traditional religion is a part of your very being. It is ingrained in your thought patterns, your archetypes, your deeply ingrained value systems. Maybe if you were never a Christian in the first place you can leave, but you certainly will never be able to be a true believer of another faith without having "psychic residues" of your previous belief systems or lack thereof. If you are a westerner you will NEVER be a traditional Zoroastrian. If you are a westerner you will NEVER be a traditional Hindu. If you pick out what you like cafeteria style and ignore the importance of the social/cultural traditions. you once again make yourself to be a fool and completely miss the doctrinal synthesis and total world outlook vital to the practice of such traditions.

And if you are attracted to animism and Deism, two completely opposite sides of the spectrum, you are likely just looking for something exotic and different. There is no reason why you would be led to believing that perhaps both are true otherwise.

>>13413643
Quantum theorists no longer hold that the big bang was necessarily the beginning, or that there is such a thing as a beginning as we understand the concept.

>>13414941
>>13414963
Doing quite well, thank you
>Traditional religion is a part of your very bei
It's the caulking on the tiles of buildings I don't go in anymore. I do hear people talking about caulking of said old buildings, but I don't care, I wish they'd tear down the old buildings and let these poor feeble minded fools think of something else, something of the future.

>>13414970
Good to know. I am of this opinion too.

>>13414963
Or option 2:

>I don't follow any of your stupid religions and work things out for myself

>>13415013
t. 4chan user thinking he is gonna "work things out for himself"

I look forward to seeing your masterful synthesis

>>13414016
You made factual errors about the contents of basic Christian doctrines that every child learns in Sunday school. You aren't a Christian and you never have been. You're acting in bad faith and I absolutely will call you out on that.

>>13414316
Christianity doesn't teach that the three persons of the Trinity are three separate gods in one "shell" so I have to question why you even wrote this response.

>>13415055
>Being a baby and needing a guidebook on how to get through life without crying for mommy

>>13415079
The only thing Christianity teaches about the trinity is that it's unfathomable bullshit, impossible to understand logically or by any rational faculty, and you'll go to hell if you think the wrong thing about it. The trinity is absolute nonsense and only exists to browbeat people.

>>13415085
>the state of /lit/

>>13415097
Thank you for the evidence that you've never actually been catechized or researched the doctrine at all.

>>13415115
>god is like 3 persons dude but it's not like 3 parts or 3 gods cause that's heresy
Theologians can try to justify anything they want. The fact is that the trinity is a logically invalid teaching; a contradiction.

>>13413643
Imagine having to live an entire lifetime being this emotionally and mentally retarded.

>>13415132
>Let me demonstrate my experience being a former Christian and throw up this strawman and assert that Christians believe something which Christians have actually formally condemned as a heresy
>Get rightfully called out as a false flagger
>Uh actually it's all nonsense and you're just bullying me!

Pathetic.

>>13415115
I don't worship a dead jew or a book of jewish fairy tales, so you are correct in inferring that I am not a christcuck. But please, go ahead and explain to us how the trinity is at all logical. If you can't prove it materially, what logical inferences lead you to believe that is the case?

>>13415168
First explain to me why you are proud that you're talking about a subject you don't actually know anything about.

>>13413643
>not to mention that science cannot explain the origin of the universe beyond "it exploded lol"

that´s why i´m a non-materialistic atheist, only the existence of a higher dimension trigger the creation of this universe (see brane and string theory)

what´s your answer to this....religious person

>>13413521
>I'm done with Christianity, but these other varieties of religion which attempt to distract from the main flaw sound cool
Seems pretty clear to me who's coping.

>>13413521
So you want to be a new age hippy?

>>13415186
LOL You can't do it. You don't have a logical reason for believing in the trinity.

>>13415132
>>Theologians can try to justify anything they want. The fact is that the trinity is a logically invalid teaching; a contradiction.
How do I know that you've never studied an even remotely complex structure in your life, be it even basic algebra?
If anything, Trinity as presented in Augustine is now trivialized in the complexity aspect.

>>13415201
True animism is about as far from new age hippiness as you can get

>>13413699
Prove to me:
1) that consciousness exists, what it is, and where it lies
2) that it is a biological phenomena
3) that it ceases at biological death
4) that reality isn't idealist in nature i.e consciousness is reality's fundamental nature ex. does time exist without consciousness? if so, what rate does it travel at? I expect a better answer than for you to say "the same rate it is while we're alive and experiencing it through consciousness" since you're merely projecting the elements of consciousness-reality onto a reality you claim consciousness does not exist during..

You can't, through the empirical methodology your doctrine relies on, prove a single one of these claims. Until then, spirituality - the most central, universal behavior of our species - is extremely valid. If you're a materialistic naturalist, your task is to explain said behavior according to your biological paradigm. Evolution, and all that. You make me chuckle thinking you can simply dismiss all of spirituality without any evidential or rational basis justifying such a motion.

>>13413837
>I was going to read the Quran anyway, any specific recs for other reading or for translations?
Yes.
Here's a forum of quranists
https://free-minds.org/forum/
here's the work of a researcher I find interesting
https://www.linkedin.com/today/author/dr-kashif-khan-093098ba
Here's a website with word-to-word translations with etymology
https://www.islamawakened.com/

>LYING THREAD WITH A PHOTOSHOP PICTURE

>>13415639
You should probably define consciousness first. In general though, the only explanations that are making progress in elucidating such questions are physicalist ones. Much more is now known about what brain regions are responsible/contributory to specific functions of our experience. Spiritual explanations have no such evidence or track record of prediction to support their hypotheses. Sure, there's much left to know and we don't have perfect knowledge that we can tie up with a bow and present to you -- but that's an unreasonable expectation. Empiricism has revealed much, spirituality has revealed nothing.

The most central, universal behaviours of our species are actually things like eating, fucking, fighting and playing. One interesting theory about the development of spirituality is that it is a side-effect of intentionality. Humans have evolved to be very sensitive to the intentions of others and predatory animals. It seems that this sensitivity brought us to the point where we actually read intentions into things where none is readily apparent... From the wind rustling a bush (possible predator?) to a scary face carved into a stone, to a black storm on the horizon. Combined with our inability to explain the world, I think this is a likely genesis for spiritualism. In any event, the mere existence of a behaviour does not indicate it has any explicative power. Would you say the spiritual perspective of a tribe of cannibals is just as valid as yours? Do you think the imagnings of children or the hallucinations of the mentally ill are also 'extremely valid' ways to explain reality?

Certainly time exists without consciousness... 'Consciousness' (whatever that actually is) wouldn't be possible without spacetime, nor would the universe have been able to expand and cool, the laws of physics wouldn't work. Rate of travel through spacetime isn't uniform... Photons travel at a different speed than water droplets. Speed and gravity modulate how time elapses. For instance, GPS algorithms compensate for the dilation between satellite and earth bound clocks, a dilation that occurs whether or not a conscious being is observing those clocks.

wow, 100 new posts, this'll be fun

>>13414024
that is the impression I'm getting, but there has to be something better than atheism
>>13414275
oh no, I agree with you, Jesus was an asshole, but if he wasn't a giant hypocrite who didn't do what he taught, then his teachings would be sound in every way (beyond his theology of course)
>>13414295
the worst denominations, in order from "purge them from the Earth" to tolerable, are Mormons, Witnesses, Baptists, Catholics, and Pentecostals, the last one being barely okay. everyone else is different shades of "okay but why"
>>13414305
thanks for the rec, even if it wasn't directed towards me
>>13414316
what did he mean by this
>>13414325
while infant baptism is mildly problematic, I would honestly almost be fine if I could find a denomination that denies the trinity in full
>>13414339
I'm not going to worship the goddamned Force
>>13414340
another one of my issues
>>13414389
ok
>>13414402
read the thread before you comment
>>13414436
so what kind of Pagan are you?
>>13414440
ikr
>>13414556
exactly. I was born non-Christian, and I'm no longer blind to that, so I'm searching for what faith I actually am
>>13414613
ok
>>13414698
thanks for the specific and constructive criticism
>>13414700
read the thread
>>13414702
lol this
>>13414779
it literally doesn't have to be irrational
>>13414801
already did, Augustine was the first incel
>>13414866
ok
>>13414929
please don't post in my threads
>>13414970
please rec books about this if you want me to take you seriously
>>13415079
>waaaaaa your criticism which I am not going to respond to because I secretly don't know how is hurting my feelings :((((((((((((
>>13415151
ok, but do you have any book recs or
>>13415190
>what's your answer
something conscious made the universe and then fucked off
>>13415191
and it's you. glad we're in agreement
>>13415201
not really
>>13415749
thanks

>>13416460
>something conscious made the universe and then fucked off

pussy answer

>>13416638
just as pussy as "everything exploded lol"

>>13416741
>*destroys and obliterates your belief in a millisecond*

heh nothin´ personal kid

>>13413521
Why'd you leave Christianity specifically?

You seem to not know much about Christianity, for starters you speak of the Bible as the only source of teaching and second you refer to Mormons and others as Christians.

>>13414275
>incite rebellion and disobedience against the Romans with whom you share a common enemy
Jesus loved all and did not have enemies in the way you think he did. I don't understand how he incited rebellion when he allowed the pharisees to give him to Pilate, though he could've stopped his persecution at any time (Matthew 26:53).
>condemn people to be tortured for all eternity because they don't believe your dad is real
It would take a book to address this point, if you cared about the answer you'd already have some names. Read the church fathers. Read Augustine, Aquinas, etc. N.T. Wright. So many names. You need education.
>convince 12 men to abandon all of their possessions so they can follow you around all day and obey your edicts
Of course they would follow him if he has truth. Truth is more valuable than possessions. If someone carries truth, you must follow him no matter what. Do you just want to have everything come to you without any sacrifice?
>never leave any evidence that you even existed whatsoever
No comment.

>>13414316
Not necessarily. Usually that's the later conclusion because the gods are not the universe nor its source, they are part of it. The underlying things identified with, for example, the Christian God, would not really be a god at all as gods are beings and/or forces in the universe by polytheism's definition. Obviously every religion has metaphysical beliefs, there's not really a difference between the gods being perceived as aspects of those metaphysics and being perceived as beings/forces of the universe, it's just a change in thinking about the gods. The polytheism-monotheism distinction doesn't make sense because different definitions are used. Though it probably made sense in early Christianity when it used the same definition as polytheism just with one god. Later this god encompasses things that break the definition and make another.

>>13416773
is that picture supposed to prove something?
>>13416808
if you're asking the specific reasons I'm done with Christianity, then you can find my reasons in other comments
if you're asking why it's specifically Christianity that I'm done with, then it's because that was my religion, obviously
>>13416809
>Bible as the only source of teaching
somehow I feel that you're a heretic, but I can't put my finger on why
>Mormons and others
that's why I put them at the bottom of my list, since they're so heretical that they're Christian only in name

>>13413540

>>13417709
The perfect reaction image to anything and everything posted on this board.

>>13417762
have we found God, dare I say?

>>13413521
I dont get why people always either believe in christianity or become atheist. Why does it never cross the mind that there is probably a god, but that he is just an asshole to people? I think people jump to atheism to fast.

>>13413521
Being born into a religion that looks down on converts or bars them entirely > converting to a religion that requires serious sacrifice > starting your own religion > atheism >>>>> shopping freely for an easy religion to adopt >>>>>>>> being "spiritual"

>>13413521
>I started looking around online at other belief systems, and deism and animism both look especially interesting.
how difficult has it been to survive with a 70 IQ?

>>13417813
probably
>>13418313
that's what I'm getting
>>13418370
>shopping
I like that none of these "you're just window-shopping" posters are actually criticizing the idea, just dismissing it with buzzwordy phrases as if that's an argument
>easy
I'm not looking for easy either
>being "spiritual"
I will be reduced to that last resort if you do not give me recs
>>13418380
I don't know, that seems like a question you're more qualified to answer

>>13413562
Good luck with your bullshit anon.
We'll always welcome you back to Christianity.

>>13416460
Fuck man.
Just look at this cope.

>>13418538
>>13416460
Listen, man. You are fucking retarded. I don't mean that in an insulting way, I mean it in the doctor-letting-you-know-that-you-have-cancer kind of way.
My advice? Actually fucking read. You keep asking for book recs but the way you respond and write tells me a) you're 16 and b) you've never read a work of philosophy before.
Serious advice: acknowledge that right now you are an uneducated brainlet who understands and knows nothing about metaphysics. Become an educated brainlet. Proceed to read philosophy, starting from the Greeks. Spinoza and Kant are your most important points of metaphysical entry.
This retarded window-shopping you're engaging in? Pathetic. Wormlike. You're only ever born into a real tradition that is actually worthwhile, otherwise it's not a real Tradition (for you). You clearly aren't part of a traditional society, so, forget about it. Be an agnostic. Read philosophy and come to your own metaphysical conclusions using reason and your own faculties for consciousness/sentience.

>>13413521
Agnosticism

>>13415248
And I doubt you can explain to me why you are justified in being proud of your ignorance on a subject you've chosen to pontificate on, so I guess we can call it a draw.

>>13413521
>atheism is a giant cope

>anyway guys I need a new belief system to cope, pls help

>>13413643
You're right, science can't explain the origin of the universe. We know barely anything about it.

So why does this mean religion (or spirituality if you must) is now justified? If anything it just means we should be even more sceptical of everything than we already are.

>>13416460
>please rec books about this if you want me to take you seriously
You can start here:

http://www.hawking.org.uk/the-beginning-of-time.html

>>13413521
Either 99/10 bait thread or the most retarded thread in history.

>animism
Read Peirce and Bateson and Uexkull

>>13413521
Whatever the answer is humans haven’t figured it out, though I don’t say that to mean religions are wrong. Consider how we have Newtonian and quantum physics as two different studies, but we can’t live in a universe with two laws of physics, so both must be incorrect. However they are still tremendously useful for engineering. Think of religion in the same way, even if they are all fundamentally incorrect by committing to one you’re doing your part in furthering the knowledge of our species by ensuring the passing on of the most correct approximations.

So just pick one, any one, but don’t make up your own any sooner than you’d make up a new school of math.

>>13413521
Religion is not something you shop around for like a new pair of shoes. You never truly understood Christianity if you have this attitude and as such you are doomed to always feel empty until you truly submit to God.

>>13421475
>Consider how we have Newtonian and quantum physics as two different studies, but we can’t live in a universe with two laws of physics, so both must be incorrect.
the laws of nature evolve with the universe, just has their formalism evolves with our understanding. its pure chance at the bottom and more bound by law at the top. both are incorrect, both are on the right track.

>>13419463
but I thought blasphemy was an unforgivable sin?
>>13419467
please explain specifically what about that comment was a cope?
>>13419607
>You are fucking retarded.
ok
>Actually fucking read.
give me recs
>16
22
>you've never read a work of philosophy before
correct, but I've read the Bible, so I'm at least somewhat qualified to criticize the religion
>acknowledge that right now you are an uneducated brainlet who understands and knows nothing about metaphysics.
way ahead of you, I wouldn't have made this thread if I hadn't realized I know nothing about religion except what my church and the Bible have told me
>Spinoza and Kant
fucking thank you, I'm not being flippant when I ask for recs, I genuinely want them
>window-shopping
again, the buzzword
>you're larping
I am aware that if I were to convert to another religion, I would very likely be larping, since I wasn't born into it. not every religion, however, is tied to an ethnicity or nation like, say, Judaism and Shinto are, and I want to find something that fits with me without being literally impossible to convert to
>Be an agnostic et cetera
that's the very last resort
>>13419644
again, last resort
>>13420523
thank you, this image is genuinely hilarious
>>13420559
because it's the simplest explanation, if I''m using Occam's Razor correctly
>>13420744
thanks
>>13421445
I'm sorry, but it's the latter, and you just made it even more retarded
>>13421472
oh cool, someone actually gave recs for that one instead of autistically screeching at me, thank you
>>13421475
science doesn't work like that, but interesting ideas regardless
>>13421499
>shop around
lol

>>13413540
>tips fedora

>>13413562
> I'm done dealing with the dissonance
> lists reddit-tier arguments that have been shelved a millennia ago

Yeah this is a LARP. That or you were in a protestant jesus-was-a-social-warrior church. Instead of "abandoning christianity", you should actually educate yourself on what Christianity really is.

>>13423568
>Yeah this is a LARP
so basically "I can't respond so I'm just going toc call it bait"?
>jesus-was-a-social-warrior church
Missouri Synod Lutheran, which is conservative
>educate yourself on what Christianity really is
read the Bible already, what the hell else do I need?

>>13413521

>>13421754
>science doesn't work like that
????

>>13413521
Aztec Philosophy by James Maffie

Basically it's like reading the philosophy of another planet.

Hinduism, buddhism, even taoism are not different enough, they may taste better, but are still generally flavors of ice cream. Eat some fucking philosophical shrooms

>>13413521
>I'm done with Christianity,
based
>but atheism is still a gigantic cope.
cringe

>>13423902
Behead All Satans isn't as good as you think it is
>>13423905
the two theories aren't incorrect because of some natural law that states that correct theories never compete with others, they're incorrect because they're both working models of the universe that are not and may never be complete
>>13423908
thanks
>>13424008
cope

>>13421754
>but I thought blasphemy was an unforgivable sin?
Listen. You're a fake "Christian apostate." You've consistently demonstrated an uneducated Redditor atheist's misunderstanding of basic Christian theology from your very first post. No genuine Christian would have ever committed this many factual errors. You let your hand slip. Any Christian can tell you what the one unforgivable sin is. The fact that you don't know even have the slightest clue what it is proves that you've never read the Gospels or watched a sermon on the subject or even attended Sunday school. You're a straight up liar. Stop falsely claiming to be a fallen Christian. Stop bearing false witness. Stop trolling.

>>13424071
>fake
whatever helps you sleep at night
>Redditor
another anon mentioned "reddit", what exactly is it?
>No genuine Christian
again, whatever helps you sleep at night
>You let your hand slip.
there is no hand to slip. I'm not trolling
>Any Christian can tell you what the one unforgivable sin is.
and it's blasphemy. Jesus literally said so, open your Bible to Mark 3:28-29. there's analogous passages in the other Gospels as well, but I'm partial to Mark
>you've never read the Gospels
Mark 3:28-29
>You're a straight up liar. Stop falsely claiming to be a fallen Christian. Stop bearing false witness. Stop trolling.
wow

>>13424088
You literally just googled "unforgivable sin" and posted the verse.

>>13424136
I've literally read the Bible and knew where to flip to

I think pantheism is really set to make a comeback

>>13424218
No. I can tell that you possess no actual Biblical knowledge or you wouldn't have misinterpreted this verse and been unaware of its context and you wouldn't have misunderstood the concept of the unforgivable sin in general. You wouldn't be completely ignorant of the Church Father's teachings regarding the unforgivable sin and its consideration in the doctrines of every Christian denomination. You seem to be entirely unaware of all these things because you have never been a Christian. All you did was hear about it through something like the Blasphemy Challenge because you're a false flagging atheist with no actual connection to Christianity, decided to try to use it as a cheap "gotchya" here, then googled the term and pull up the first verse when I called you out on it. You're an absolutely transparent fraud and you aren't fooling anyone. You are a fool.

>>13424270
>Blasphemy Challenge
literally the first I've heard of it
>the rest of the post
I usually don't respond to people with accusations of being X emotion, but honestly, you seem utterly seething right now. why does one person's supposed lack of understanding his ex-religion rile you up so?

>>13424293
I'm not angry at all. I just think if you're going to troll you should at least put a modicum of effort into it. Maybe you could read a basic primer on Christian theology before you pretend to be a former Christian so you don't make a series of factual errors exposing yourself as having no familiarity whatsoever with the religion, liar.

>>13424308
rule one of dealing with trolls is that you don't feed them. the fact that you're still here just calling me a troll over and over again for four posts now indicates that you're either utterly retarded or you don't actually think I'm trolling. I'm going with the latter, especially with the line "you should at least put a modicum of effort into it", which blatantly ignores the fact that I've been keeping a thread alive for two days now. if you're not just creating conspiracy theories that you know are false for the sake of delaying the inevitable "I have no argument", the only other option is that you're just flat out counter-trolling, which has got to be the most ironic thing I've ever seen
in the event you're not trolling: don't you have anything better to do on a Saturday night than throw insults at an ex-Christian who you believe isn't even taking it seriously?

>>13424320
What ever you say, faggot.

>>13424320
Imagine being caught in a lie and being so embarrassed that you write something like this. Are you mentally ill?

>>13424323
>>13424327
the only reasonable explanation now is that you've been the troll the entire time. well-played, you actually had me going for a while, 9/10, never talk to me again

>>13424330
Oh, I instantly doubted your story in the original post and recognized that for someone who is supposedly a former Christian you have no knowledge of Christian beliefs. I called you out back here:

>>13413978

But it wasn't until you demonstrated an absolute misunderstanding of what the unforgivable sin is that I was entirely sure.

You aren't an apostate. You've never been a Christian. You have no knowledge of Christianity. I doubt you've ever stepped foot inside a Church or read the Bible beyond isolated verses found in google searches.

>>13424347
>it's been going on that long
you magnificent bastard. 10/10, literally going to stop responding before I end up going insane from your literally perfect trolling
>redditspacing
back down to 9/10, but still, good job. please leave my thread unless you have something more constructive than "I disagree with your understanding of Christian theology, therefore you've been pretending to be an ex-Christian for two days straight for literally no reason", that spiel is getting pretty old now and I might have to start deducting points

anyway, it's getting late, going to bed in a bit, I'll continue this lovely thread later

>>13424367
You're an obvious fake. This isn't disagreement over theology. You've been claiming Christians believe things that Christians don't believe and you've demonstrated ignorance of doctrines every adult Christian knows. You've greatly overestimated your ability to bullshit convincingly and now you're resorting to "no u." Pathetic.

>>13413693
He wasn't making an argument, he was mocking you

>>13413742
To be fair, there's a big difference between saying something definitely does not exist, and saying there is no evidence for something

>>13414684
>His essence is existence.
Circular statement, there can be no "his" without existence as a predicate
>He literally has to exist; even if it's just you.
If it's just me he's not God
>Go halfway through psalms and realize he's talking to you.
Open a page of the bible and put your finger on the first verse you see and you're likely able to ascribe some meaning to your current situation. The bible is a book filled with meaning and humans are great at finding patterns. This doesnt make it true.

>>13424021
There can’t be two working models for the universe... fuck you idiot I made a good point.

>>13421754
>correct, but I've read the Bible, so I'm at least somewhat qualified to criticize the religion
>fucking thank you, I'm not being flippant when I ask for recs, I genuinely want them
Then why are you still in this thread instead of reading? What are you reading right now?
>I am aware that if I were to convert to another religion, I would very likely be larping, since I wasn't born into it. not every religion, however, is tied to an ethnicity or nation like, say, Judaism and Shinto are, and I want to find something that fits with me without being literally impossible to convert to
All proper religions (except bullshit cults a la Scientology and evangelicism) are TRADITIONS or continuations/evolutions of TRADITIONS. Not all of them are necessarily tied to ethnicity in doctrine, but are still, regardless, tied inseparably to τοποθεσία. All (real) religions are useful for learning, but all religions are incomplete and flawed. Religions are tradition first and foremost, truth only in parts.
>that's the very last resort
So, you are quite literally browsing religions (calling window-shopping a buzzword is not an argument against the "buzzword"'s accuracy) so that you can find the best cope rather than learning through them and coming to your own conclusions. You are admitting to incapability in thinking for yourself so that you can be fed cope to explain the mysteries for you. It doesn't work like that. Pick any cope out of the thousands and you will still remain unsatisfied, or, enter a mode of perpetual self-deception. Why are you seeking to clutch hold of a religion you can use as your wholistic cope instead of using all religions as the vast, beautiful, multifaceted mines of traditional knowledge?