/lit/ - Literature

>>13402907
Some people are already heavily invested in non-anarchic social orders and stand to lose power by transitioning to an anarchic one.

>>13402907
Society isn't voluntary. The Lockean state of nature is wrong.

It'sgay and retarded

>>13402907
Nothing

>>13402974
based

>What's wrong with anarchism?
"Anarcho"-communism

>>13402907
I'm not strong enough to defend myself against rapists, murderers, and bandits. I don't want to get raped, murdered, or robbed. Therefore I seek a higher power outside of myself to protect me from those things.

>>13402949
Exactly. You cannot destroy government because any association of human beings immediately leads to some primitive hierarchy: power unclaimed is swiftly taken.

>>13402991
Furthermore, it is impossible for individuals to exist without law because self-government replaces collective government and thus the individual becomes self-regulated

>>13402907
When I was a very young child I did something similar, talked about how there should be no restrictions on anyone ever which was infantile and retarded of course. My mother rightly and quickly shut it down by saying "what if people wanted to create law and community, would your you prevent them?" Or something to that effect. Kids are dumb, grow up.

>>13402907
Me coming around and bashing your helpless stupid face in

>>13402907
Other people exist

>>13402907
Anarchists will always inevitably get assraped by tankies.

>>13403300
are libtards just stunted adults?

>>13402907

Do you want your tard neighbors to be able to vote to control any aspect of your life anytime the tard mood strikes them?

>>13402907
>Bakunin installed himself there [in city hall]; then came the critical moment, the moment awaited for many years, when Bakunin could carry out the most revolutionary act the world has ever seen—he decreed the Abolition of the State. But the state, in the form and nature of two companies of bourgeois National Guards, swept the hall, and set Bakunin hurrying back on the road to Geneva [it was Marseille].
>The first sentence of Bakunin's decree was: "The administrative and governmental machine of the state, having become impotent, is abolished." This was a non-sequitur from a false premise: it was not the state that was impotent, but rather the abolitionists who suffered from "the fantasy and impotence of pious desire".

>>13403009
>>13402991
You're contradicting yourself. Anarchism isn't 'without rules' or 'without order', but rather 'without rulers'. Fundamentally the idea is to have power (as directly as possible) in the hands of those it touches.

>>13402981
Elaborate or die.

I wouldn't want to live in a commune with most of the anarchists Ive meet

>>13402983
Why couldn't that power be the united force of your associated community? You're using fragments of anarchist reasoning, but constraining yourself within the ideology of existing conditions.

>>13402907
As long as humans have higher thought processes and as long as more than one person exists together, society and as a result government will always exist.

>>13403442
>without rulers
Doesn't make sense. SomeONE is always directing the frame i.e. there's always a sovereign. The necessity is built-in to language itself.

>>13402955
this

>>13402907
Anarchy doesn’t exist, can’t exist, I’d call it idealistic nonsense if the “anarchist”s views were actually anarchy and not just tribalism.

>>13403442
>>Power in the hands of those it touches
So rulers?

>>13403463
Is that so? People have formed councils, chosen collectively a recallable person-of-responsibility, and utilized consensus-based mechanisms to decide things, well, always.

>>13403442
As long as people have opinions and are fundamentally distinguishable from each other, there will always be rulers: The best hunter, the eldest, the best talker, the richest, the most popular, the mother, the father, he who is closest to our ideal, he who is closets to our god, ect

>>13403478
No, the people of the community themselves.

>>13403486
>councils, chosen collectively a recallable person-of-responsibility, and utilized consensus-based mechanisms
Literally ALL illusory. In the final analysis someONE makes the decision. The sovereign is conserved

>>13402907
anarchists.

The only worthwhile anarchists are those who realize it's impossible to achieve. Freedom = responsibility. Anarchy as a process.

>>13403493
You're stretching the definition so damned far, that it is practically meaningless.
The 'Modern School' movement however developed educational methods to dismantle ideology like that, teaching children to think for themselves, and to respect and recognize mentors without subordinating themselves.

>>13403504
Right, right...

>>13403486
and these are almost always dysfunctional and retarded, which is why you never see any serious organisation using them

>>13403512
Who decided that this decision should be settled based on consensus? Was THAT decision settled based on consensus? What about that one? And the next? The buck eventually stops; someONE is directing the frame, overcoding the frames of all others

>>13403524
All hail Lord Big Bang, the decider of everything and all!

>>13403523
[citation needed]

>>13403508
I think you're the one who lacks free thought. It is simple human nature to not only desire power, but also to delegate it (which sounds contradictory at first). What is anarchism at it's core? To put simply it's an idea of no government controlling organisation. When people have opinions they eventually desire someone to represent them, this is how politicians are created in a sense. When people desire sought after possessions, beyond smashing each others heads in, we create laws to decide who gets what and why, we put people in positions to ensure these rules are followed and councils in order to keep track of things. Power is a fundamentally part of individuals living together for self gain. In order to ensure the laws that benefit me stay in place i need order, for order to upheld, i need someone who best represent my ideals to rule over them, since i lack the popularity to do it my self i designated someone. Anarchy goes against humans pack instincts and greed.

>>13402907
Freedom is largely an inner experience, giving humans external "freedom" largely results in an enormous loss of the real, inner freedom.

Freedom doesn't mean that you can do what you want, but that you yourself can determine what exactly it is that you want.

>>13403494
So rulers?

if everybody had the freedom to choose what to do, do you think people would volunteer to work shitty, yet necessary, jobs?

>>13403346
All adults are broken. True children are undeveloped in many ways, but what works is broken to the will of society. Most people grow up broken. Not all of them

>>13402907
Disorganization. A lack of a clear path disheartens people. But it’s clearing up more and more these days. Donno if it’s enough and in time though

I grab my Jew Crew and we fuck up your stateless anarchy.
Your society relies on literally everyone being of the same philosophy. Literally everyone.

>>13402907
It can't win

>>13403991
If it does not. We will likely go extinct.

>>13402907
nothing wrong with being retarded but also nothing to be proud of

ITT: Splitbrain Luciferian materialists.
Your precious "social order" is nothing more than reptoid fodder.

>>13404005
Communism is the opposite of anarchism you retarded tankie

>>13402981
Imagine being retarded enough to think capitalism is the default

>>13402907
the anarchists

>>13402981
>americans unironically believe "ancap" is anarchism
rope your entire country

>>13402907
Abandoned the immortal science of Marxist-Leninst-Maoism

>>13404035
The commune is socialist. The best socialism is libertarian socialism. Aka anarchism.
>tankie
I am not a tanky. This is of course what you think communism is, but this is basically wrong. Old Cold War propaganda has infected your mind is all.

>>13404052
A handful of environmentalists anarchists.

>>13404059
>>13404038
Imagine being retarded enough to think Anarcho-communism isn't an oxymoron, and to think that capitalism is the only alternative to communism.
Communism = state = decisions do not emanate from the individual = dictatorship. Communism wants happiness for all, Anarchy wants happiness for every one. Simple as. Syndicalism is where it's at

>>13404425
Are you the same anon from before?
This is all wrong. Cold War propaganda.

don't @ me insect tripfag
not the same person. socialism and communism both believe in the state and are therefore incompatible with anarchism

>>13404425
>>13404504
>Communism = state = decisions do not emanate from the individual = dictatorship.
the state withers away in a classless, communist society, but an anarchist retard is bound to be forever unable to wrap his head around this, since he evaluates everything from the standpoint of bourgeois liberalism.

>>13404425
I don't want happiness and neither does anyone else, also I was replying thinking you were an ancap memer from your vague statement

>>13404667
>the state withers away in a classless, communist society
Pure ideology. I’m sure you’d sell your mamma’s organs on the meat market.

>>13404038
Imagine thinking red ideals work.

>>13404504
Authoritarian socialism believe in a state, soc-dems believe in a state. Libertarian socialists do not.

>>13404667
So why don’t tankies support a classless communalist society? Why do they murder them and leave them to fascists?
Seems bourgeois “intellectuals” are incapable of delivering socialism and are only capable of establishing personality cults

>>13404288
no that's anarcho-communim, not anarchism retard. goddamn you are such a fucking retard. you want to read up on anarchism? Address Ellul and Kaczynski, not weak willed collectivists, and other types of washed up idealists.

>>13404458
The truth that communism is shit is propaganda? Yes such a great ideal they had to shoot people to prevent them from leaving.

>>13404729
>anarchism is only about individualism (fragmentism)
>wetauded! UGH!
Uh oh, i advocate a balanced approach for all, and someone is ma-ad.

>>13404733
>centralized state capitalism was totally communism dude! Read Gulag Archipelago

>>13402907
just another spook

>>13404751
>Uh oh, i advocate a balanced approach for all
ah yes, the surest way to implement anarchism.

kek, idealists are the bane of existence. the most dangerous obstacles in the course to freedom. Kaczynski's biggest achievement was recognizing no weak-willed collectivists was ever going to achieve anything.

>>13402907
Idealist understanding of the nature of power, the state, and history.
Woeful historical praxis, and an ideological framework that doesn't allow for pragmatic deviations away from the letter of ideology to save the spirit, which dialectical materialism explicitly does allow, reflected in the total collapse of what very few societies in can claim as its own - Catalonia, Makhno, etc.
Short-termism
Fetishistic localism
Resistance to the centralisation of productive forces likely necessary to save our species from material degradation, particularly in the coming ecological crises this century faces
Refusal to engage with representative democracy even where beneficial
Movement infested with liberals as a result of being one of the 'acceptable' versions of socialism during the Cold War when Marxism-Leninism was the dominant current of socialism worldwide (still is but Cold War's ended)
Butterfly

>>13404667
>the state withers away
[citation needed]

@insect : don't try to pull a "real communism was never tried" on us. libertarian socialism is not anarchism.

>>13404725
>Stalin
>bourgeois

>>13404059
Ancom=retard!

>>13404751
>state capatilism

And you accuse others of falling for propaganda, then again you are a tripfag so everything you say is retarded already.

>>13404725
Authoritarianism is communism.

>>13404774
>farts
>opens window. Kicks anon out

>>13404800
>Stalin
>Intellectual
I was of course referring to Lenin the liberal

>>13404823
Ooo, okay, it was centralized state socialism. Better?
It’s didn’t work. Have you read Cockshott yet though? (He’s not an anarchist)

>>13404832
No, its not Mr liberal

>>13404858
>Lenin the liberal
I'm surprised you haven't referenced your shitty Voline tome yet.

>>13404897
Why do you call it shitty?

>>13404725
>So why don’t tankies support a classless communalist society? Why do they murder them and leave them to fascists?
I don't know, ask them. Probably because they're too stupid to read and understand Marx.

>Seems bourgeois “intellectuals” are incapable of delivering socialism
Yes

>>13404788
>The state was the official representative of society as a whole; the gathering of it together into a visible embodiment. But it was this only insofar as it was the state of that class which itself represented, for the time being, society as a whole: in ancient times, the state of slave-owning citizens; in the Middle Ages, the feudal lords; in our own time, the bourgeoisie. When at last it becomes the real representative of the whole society, it renders itself unnecessary [überflüssig, superfluous].

>>13404832
authoritarianism is my dick

>>13404858
Red cannot be anything but statists and yes it is bootlicker.

>>13404902
It's more your constant shilling for it that's shitty. What do you make of claims like this though?
>Even the anarchist historian Volin, who was a political advisor to Makhno, states that there were no more than a few hundred families involved in the Makhnovist communes.24 Makhno in his memoirs admits that “the mass of people did not go over” to the free communal order;25 while even the strongly pro-Makhno anarchist Alexander Skirda acknowledges: “The idyllic dream of ‘cooperative enterprise’ was to dissolve in discord and bitterness, or even in ‘dismal despair,’ with commune workers quitting one after another.”26
>Volin, one of the leaders of the Makhnovists, explained that there developed a kind of military clique or camarilla about Makhno. This clique sometimes made decisions and committed acts without taking account of the Council or of other institutions. It lost its sense of proportion, showed contempt towards all those who were outside it, and detached itself more and more from the mass of the combatants and the working population.51
>Volin acknowledges that one of the reasons for the increasing authoritarianism of the Makhnovist army was “the lack of a vigorous and organised workers’ movement to support the insurrection”.54 The reality was that – as even Makhno’s closest supporter, the anarchist Arshinov, admits – considerable sections of the working class remained loyal to the Bolsheviks: “the difference between the Communists and Wrangel was that the Communists had the support of the masses with faith in the revolution”.55
>The Kontrrazvedka was responsible for numerous killings and the torture of opponents, whether they be White agents, Communists, Left Social Revolutionaries or Ukrainian nationalists. Even one of the Makhnovist leaders, Volin, subsequently admitted that at the Olexandrivske Makhnovist Congress delegates complained of “arbitrary and uncontrolled actions, of which some are very serious, rather like the Bolshevik. Searches, arrests, even torture and executions are reported.”61
https://marxistleftreview.org/articles/nestor-makhno-the-failure-of-anarchism/#_edn60

>>13404943
>afraid of colors
Both the individual and the collective are important

>>13404996
So the best way to help the individual is to oppress them? Yes I'm sure those getting shot trying to leave the DDR really felt that collective love.

>>13405042
Whereas Pinochet's 'collectivist' torture victims really learned the glories of 'individualism' eh

>>13405042
I advocate decentralizing everything with direct democracies, at workplaces towns and cities. Rabid individualists can escape into the woods if they choose to. But not everyone is into that shit, and you have to respect that.
After the self-evolutionary phase really kicks in, I doubt we’ll even be able to tell individual from collective anymore.
Enjoy.

>>13402907
Humans

>>13405275
You advocate to replace the current state with your version of a state.

>>13405275
Great yeah, this iconoclastic Behavior is quite frankly making me want to fuck the shit out of you. I can tell you’re getting Horny.

Time to destroy your ideology and pussy at the same time :3

>>13405255
>if he's not for my form of extremism he must be for the other!

This is your mind on Reddit.

>>13402907
because you get your shit taken

>>13404052
the absolute STATE

>>13402981
Read Kropotkin

>>13402907
they are too slow. You can't acc if you are a social-communist anarchist

>>13402907
it's not literature

>>13405585
Kropotkin is unbased and retarded

>>13402907
Because the amount of destruction, suffering, and instability it would cause to fulfill it's ends isn't worth it. Plus human beings act with as much (if not more) cruelty in the state of nature.

>>13402907
When you have anarchy in the sense of no rulers, then someone will inevidably take power.

When you have "anarchy" in the sense of having only "justified hierarchies" is a more complicated way of proposing pure democracy, but is more associated with voluntary collectivism via anarcho-syndicalism/communism.

Really anarcho-syndicalist/communist/leftist anarchism shouldn't be assosiated with the idea of anarchy through the term "anarchism" because real anarchy is an unrealistic way of dealing with today's problems and repels the laymen from the ideas of what actually is a proposed voluntary workers state.

>>13403458
What if there's a power struggle within the "associated community"?

Why not have a state/government?
I like to sleep at night knowing that foreign countries won't invade our territory without a fight.

>>13403494
So in one word,
Democracy?

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