/lit/ - Literature

>>13279879
Satan doesn't rule hell he just has lots of street cred there

Are you implying the fucks in hell don't deserve to be there?

>>13279879
Christianity was initially a form of initiatory esoterism, all the references to Hell and and Heaven are metaphors and correspond to spiritual ascent and descent. The later hagiography and theology that grew up around Jesus lost much of the actual meaning he taught people IRL, hence all this absurd predicaments.

>>13279896
>god creates beings while fully aware of their future actions
>blames them when they inevitably fuck up

>>13279879
>Suffering in Hell

Okay so one, that isn't what the book says. Nor even is it what the Catholic Church says. "Hell" is a state of nonexistence, that's why the book says "the dead are aware of nothing at all." The Catholics borrowed the notion of an eternity of suffering from the norse Pagans, even the word "Hell" comes from Hel's House, a place of damnation in pagan mythology, but even THEY say that the gates to Hell are held closed from the inside.

In other words, in any orthodox reading of Christianity that isn't excessive American drivel, Hell is a self-imposed torment. Nobody is MAKING these people suffer. Hell is not a prison, it is merely the result of not accepting Jesus Christ as your savior, not embracing the virtue that he embodied, and not submitting your soul and heart to God.

Only the most deranged and outlying versions of Christian dogma seriously and unironically stipulate that every single person from every single time period except RIGHT NOW is burning in screaming hellfire. They aren't. What the book says is that the dead are dead, and that on judgement day, all will be ressurected, and the wicked will be cast into a lake of fire. But "lake of fire" in Greek is synonymous with annihilation. So what the book really says is, the absolutely wicked will be obliterated in flame, the righteous will form the kingdom of heaven, and those in between will simply return to oblivion.

Two, fighting against God is literally nonsense. The idea of leading a revolution against the creator of the universe because you are butthurt that morality exists is childish to the point that it deserves mockery. If God were real (he isn't, but let's say he were) and he told you that you had to cut one of your own fingers off to get into heaven, you would not only be insane to refuse it, but you would be evil. The guy who wrote the laws of physics gets to decide what right and wrong is. If he decides you need to cut a finger off, you cut that fucking finger off or you're evil. What are you, a Stoic? Like hell you are. Pray the knife is sharp.

>>13279879
>posting a pic but not the video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8d-uB0vaoQo

>>13279931
The creation and maintenance of hell is an act of perfect love. Read your Dante.

>>13279936
>The guy who wrote the laws of physics gets to decide what right and wrong is

Why?

>>13279946
> Someone makes up a ridiculous lie that defies common sense
> It's rational because man-authority guy said it in support of sky-authority guy and authority=reason!

>>13279946
This. You are a beautiful soul anon

>>13279946
>The creation and maintenance of hell is an act of perfect love.
pls to be explaining

>>13279965
This is what happens when you swallow too much semen from strangers

>>13280033
Nice argument dipshit

>>13280060
Lmao

>>13279936
You do realize that the word hell comes from sheol right

>>13280076

Hell is the state of being completely deprived of God and you will only enter that state if you choose it, either explicitly or implicitly. You can't accidentally reject God. The people that are in hell deserve it. Think of the angel in Dante's Inferno who refuses to feel sympathy by looking left or right while walking down the path through hell. That is righteousness.

>>13280106
>Think of the angel in Dante's Inferno who refuses to feel sympathy by looking left or right while walking down the path through hell. That is righteousness.

This. We don’t hate sinners. We just know they deserve justice, in HELL

>>13280106
More like having your head up your ass

>>13280121
>We don’t hate sinners. We just know they deserve justice, in HELL
Religion of peace kek

>>13280101
How about you cite where the hell does hell come from "hel's house" because I have not heard of that until now.

>>13279953
Well the alternative would be an Aristotlean version of morality that would come to a much more radical moral conclusion than Christianity, at which point I would cede the argument because my only complaint with Christianity is that it isn't extreme enough.

If you would like to be the one to derive morality from reason alone, be my guest, we've been trying it for about three thousand fucking years.

>>13280076
I've heard the argument before, but Sheol, firstly, is not pronounced anything like Hell, and secondly Hel was a pagan deity well before the birth of Christianity. Remember the bible was not written in English, to say nothing of German, the original term for the lake of fire in Latin was "Inferno." Hell as a word and a codified place of suffering was almost certainly adopted from Germanic tongues as a way of expressing the idea of damnation.

But even if it is the case that Hell is derived from Sheol, this does not hurt my case at all. Sheol in Hebrew mythology is a state of nonexistence, or possibly of eternal languor much like the Greek Hades. It is NOT a place of eternal suffering, and the guilty are not sentenced to it--all go there alike.

>>13279879
reminder that aquinas said that watching the doomed suffer in hell would be one the joys of heaven

>>13280278
Radical in what way? Christianity is a religion for plebs and sociopaths. It has no moral requirements, only a cost of admission that's basically free.

>>13280278
If you would like to be the one to derive morality from reason alone, be my guest

Hold it right there buster.

>>13280291
Based Aquinas

>>13280293
Are you trying to bait me into defending Calvinism? Because I'm not going to.

The entire principle of Pre-Reformation Christianity is that that righteous do good works because they are righteous, not as a requirement for material or spiritual gain, and not because they were predestined to do so, but because it is in the nature and experience of some people to be righteous.

I.E., you do not be a good person to go to heaven, you are going to heaven because you are a good person. Your nature, which is formed partially by your blood and partially by your upbringing and the grace of God gives you such a character is would be suited for salvation.

The idea of being able to "trick" god and get into heaven despite being an asshole is a Talmudic (Jewish) idea, not one that is anywhere in the bible or in any church teachings.

And no, do not bring up the subject of purchased indulgences, because those were VERY rare and were actually considered a form of corruption even by the Catholic Church itself. Local priests would scam yokels out of money by offering them a free pass on their sins, this was never doctrine or included in Catechism.

>>13280297
Oh here we fucking go.

Origen believed in a non-eternal Hell where, after being cleansed from one's sins, one would eventually be reunited with God, because even the greatest sin pales into insignifance compared with God's infinte love for His creation.

>>13280291
Aquinas referred to the suffering specifically of the wicked, and not necessarily of all of the unsaved. Moreover, he did not specify the length of such joy.

A few years ago some nigger tortured a baby to death with a blowtorch. Would I like to watch that disgusting criminal beg for her life before having her brains blown out? Yes. That would be a joy. And it would be righteous. But nowhere in the bible does it say that even such a vile creature should suffer for eternity.

Repeatedly in the bible, and particularly in the words of Christ himself, the "destruction of the soul" is mentioned. Never once insofar as I remember in the text of the scripture does it say "yeah we're going to burn these niggers alive forever."

Nor would I desire it to be so. Nor, I hope, would any Christian desire it to be so. Eternal suffering is by definition more suffering than anyone deserves, because there can be no treason so high as to warrant unlimited suffering. Maybe a little suffering. Maybe a lot of suffering.
Eternal, though? No. And the book does not say that, nor does any prophet or any apostle say it. It is not canon.

>>13280138
You have to earn your peace.

“The greatest gift of righteousness is peace of mind” - pic related

>>13279879
pride, wrath, gluttony, greed, envy, lust, sloth are all selfish religions of the ego that kill a man. a person is sick when these ail him, those who reside in the pleroma are free from these bindings, and thus able to return home

>>13279936
Based Malfoy poster.

>>13279879
>people of heaven waging war against God
Good luck with that.

DUH it’s their own fault for not believing in a circumcised jew god

>>13279946
>Read your Dante
lmao at this heretic

>>13279879
Zoroastrianism doesn't have this problem:
>>13282289

>>13279879
>>13279946
>>13280106
>>>/lit/thread/S13138114#p13143815

>This world is a corpse-eater. All the things eaten in it themselves die also. Truth is a life-eater. Therefore no one nourished by truth will die. It was from that place that Jesus came and brought food. To those who so desired, he gave life, that they might not die.

>Work obsession disentangles some cryptic Theological ideas like choosing Hell and it being a merciful option by design. Living to work is already a soft immanentizing of the idea that Hell is ironic or sardonic. Men of the world might even rejoice at the proverbial boulders becoming literal ones, at getting to drop the pretense and debase themselves earnestly.

>>13279879
Yes. It's a religion about the self, since it overcomes the paradigm of moral value understood as the others' opinions.

If you want an actual answer read pic related, a modern and rational exposition on theological realities of Christianity and how we can conceive of them sanely, and more importantly actually live by them. It covers free will, "Mysteries", most all common complaints of perceived contradictions in theology, etc.
Why I don't answer the question in this thread simply is because it's a flawed argument and a poorly conceived rational about how free will actually works.

>>13279931
>predeterminism
>"I have no free will bro"
>"I like anime traps because God made me so"

reminder that jesus christ is the way and the truth and if you accept him into your heart you will know peace

>>13279879
>selfish
>believing God came down to suffer for your very own sake so that you could be saved and that anyone who doesn't believe that is evil
Do the math.

>>13279879
I don't know why you'd expect a supposed eternal superbeing to have humanistic morals

The people who would supposedly be in heaven would likely not expect or want this from said superbeing

>>13279879
Imagine debating the nuances of iron age shepherds' campfire stories.

>>13279879
They’d delight in God’s Justice.

The Bible is a secret test. It's immoral on purpose. God created us to rebel. A perfect being has no desire to create; he has everything he needs. God created man so that man may show him how to become better. He attempted to craft a greater being by conscious design. Those failed attempts are the angels. When he created Lucifer, it was because he realized his mistake hitherto: he would never create the blueprints for something greater than he. Instead, he must create creatures with an even greater lust for improvement than he. God wants us to transform into Gods greater than he.
And so he alludes in Genesis 11:6
>And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
Even overcoming God himself.

>>13280297
t. Lucius Blackjack, Blow, and Whores Seneca

>Is christianity a selfish religion?
No.

>How can those who reside in heaven be content knowing that billions are suffering in Hell?
Because they comprehend justice and salvation.

>Why aren't the people of heaven waging war against God and Satan alike to free their brothers from damnation?
Because they understand their own religion.

>>13280357
You should probably reread the New Testament to refresh your memory.

>>13282912
And then the tower of Babel happened.
God doesn't want you to outclass him bucko

>>13283019
Correct of the Biblical God. He saw man's potential and aimed to stamp it out before it went too far. That God is evil as he is vain. But the tower of Babel never happened. It's just a story with a moral, Bible God being the villain in said story.
Remember Bible God =/= actual God. The real God wouldn't condone slavery, genocide and pedophilic rape.

>>13283085
You nigga is the same one who gonna say jesus is not an actual god

>>13279898
/thread

PROTESTANT THEOLOGY
nobody suffers in hell anything that isn't a result of each individuals own vice. No good man is in hell, for James and the gospels teaches us that he who DOES the word go heaven. You can speak of belief all you want, but these are only empty words. And he who's never heard the Word, can listen to his heart which does posses the word and thereby live what he has never heard.

>>13283331
>For it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified

>>13279931
>fully aware of their future actions
A little secret: It's your own damn fault for being a dickhead.

>>13283400
So did god create him knowing he'd be a dick head or not knowing he'd be a dick head?

>>13283429
God created true free will. People seem very dumbfounded by this notion, that we truly can say no or yes, supremely. He created every man with equal power to say no when they should say yes, and vice versa. Nobody was destined to be by anyone but themselves, God only know the result of your Divine freedom.

>>13279879
>just fight the eternal constants of the universe bro

>>13283429
God gave you freedom to do as you will and didn't put a pistol to your head to influence your choices in life. God knows what will happen if you choose either path of dickhead or good person.

>>13283572
cool opinion

>>13283445
Let's see if we can agree on what you're saying. You believe
(1) God created everything knowing how everything will turn out
(2) God also created the universe, so we can infer every outcome in it happens because god intended it to happen that way, otherwise we must assume God is irrational
(3) Therefore a guy named Bob in hell turned out in hell because God intended Bob to be in hell
(4) Bob has free will

>>13279898
/thread

>>13284430
Fuck wrong one>>13279898

>>13284421

What bearing does one's foreknowledge have on an other's free will?

>>13284421
Take it like this. You know that Bob is going to stab a guy, he said he's going to, you've seen him do it before. It gives you no pleasure, but you do nothing about it. Now imagine that on a cosmic level. That's God.

>>13280357
>Nor, I hope, would any Christian desire it to be so
Is this your first day on /lit/?

>>13284472
>but you do nothing about it
No, I would call the police at the very least, and try to stop him personally if it's within my power.

>>13284718
he's obviously using it as an example to illustrate that free will is compatible with an interventionist, omnipotent, omniscient, creator god. Whether he's a piece of shit or not, is a different discussion. His example shows there is no contradiction and that it may in fact not be impossible, but that is obviously not proof of free will, or even that in fact it is possible. Just that it's not necessarily incompatible with an omniscient omnipotent creator.

>>13284421
>God created everything knowing how everything will turn out
No. This is a twisting of the truth based on our mortal and limited perspective. Creation is not a past action that is over and done with, like a watch winding down. We say God created everything with the past tense, only to recognize that the creation is subsequent to the creator. In truth, there was/is no time before God created it, whatever it can be said to be. So to the extent that we perceive things as coming before us, we can say that creation happened in the past. But God precedes all things, even time, so therefore he succeeds all things as well, even time. Creation can be seen both as some historical occurance, and also as the infinite and eternal presence of God's will. To God, who precedes even time, all things as we experience them, and all things that could be or could have been, occur at once; likewise these same things each occur individually complete and eternal simply in the quality that anything which exists can never not have existed. In light of this, we see there is only one true and meaningful choice--to accept and rejoice in God, or else to reject and spite God. Whichever we choose, we will be furthering God's will. If we accept his will, by this freedom of choice, everything we do will be our will and God's will; there can be no greater treasure than to share a hand in God's creation, no matter how small and insignificant it is. If we reject God, we will seek our own glorification, and yet all we do will still serve God's purpose; this choice would be an endless suffering--to eternally hate God and his will, but to serve him anways without choice. You ask why there is suffering in this world, but that is to misunderstand this world. These life is like existence with training wheels. All around us are people and senses, all creations of God, which cry out for us to turn to him. When we turn away, we do not plummet to the bottom of the enless void, but instead are caught by pain, signs that tell us something is wrong. After death, there will be no ability to change; to reject God after this life will be to make an infinite rejection which can only be understood as hell.

>>13279879
>Is christianity a selfish religion?
The highest law: Love your God like you love yourself, and love your neighbor like you love yourself.
Love isn't selfish.