/lit/ - Literature

>>13247386
I choose WIM because BI is not that blissful tbg

>>13247386
you're a moron

>>13247468
>Abloo bloo
Grow up, bitch

>>13247386
>you’re only miserable like me OR YOU JUST DON’T GET IT MOM
Cutting edge commentary.......

>>13247386
Depends on your contingency.

I think you forgot the adding to the feminine-non-all as well my petite doomerette.

>>13247386
Why the dichotomy when one can choose happiness?

>>13247479
What is there to say? Do you want someone to convince you otherwise or agree with you? Then what? I don't get it. What do you gain out of making this kind of thread. Is it a call for help or validation? moron

>>13247871
>wahhh wahhh

>>13247799
How is happiness advanced when it's the default state?

>>13247799
It's so weird how it's the apparently happy people that need positivism, whereas the downtrodden prefer objectivism.

>>13247893
happiness is not joy, joy is intense, and is authentic; illusions and delusion are the basis of basic happiness which many wear as masquerades to their crushing vacuum.

They themselves are the primary audience, of course.

>>13247386
So what should I do? Do I spend my life trying to chase hedonism or do I just not exist and make my coming into existence in the first place as a mistake?

>hurr durr bE pOsiTiVE
Why are happy people so stupid?

>>13247912
Spot on. That's exactly how this plastic Barbie and Ken people sound, bunch of brainwashed conformist sheeple who can't see that their just drones for the system. They'll never get it, just like our dumb Xtian parents.

>>13247910
False dichotomy. Hedonism won't make you happy and suicide is not the answer.

You are suffering, so you should seek liberation from it. Look into the Indian philosophies like Vedanta and patanjali yoga.

>>13247386
>You can bury yourself in video games, porn or chasing some artificial goal like a 6 figure salary and never escape the nagging feeling of something being terribly wrong
But there is a way out, OP
and it's not suicide

>>13247900
I don't know any positivists who would describe themselves as joyous or even happy. If anything, they are the unhappiest crowd. There is no joy in being the average Joe retard.

Also what the fuck where did these poos come from

>>13247876
truly epic

Melville considers this too but he used metaphors for it. Respectively it's

>the slavish shore
vs
>the boundless sea

or at least those are where the two people go to.

>>13247912
based

>>13247926
the idea of enlightenment is as verified as the idea of heaven

>>13247966
>it is subjectively experienced and not measurable with a microscope so it don't real
so is the idea of existential anxiety

>>13247995
the enlightened don't self identify as such as it's bad form, and they don't come back to confirm breaking the cycle. the enlightenment is as real as heaven/hell.

>>13247966
>must be verified
So, why not give it a shot? The only way to verify something is to experience, correct?

>>13248003
i'm just saying it's a faith

>>13248004
But if people genuinely experienced it and it is knowledgeable instead of faith, then it has already been verified

>>13248010
and if people genuinely experienced heaven and it is knowledgeable instead of faith, then it has already been verified.

>>13247966
It's totally verifiable. Just do whatever they did to get enlightened.

>>13248026
but no enlightenment has been confirmed

>>13248023
Yes. Problem?

>>13248027
How can you say this? Confirmed by whom?

>>13248004
Any practice that promises results requires faith.
Also for the record, there have been monastics whose attainments have been named such as the author of the Vimuttimagga, 'Upatissa the Arahant', or the author of the Visuddhimagga, 'Buddhaghosa the Arahant'
On top of this, monastics regularly let lay practitioners know when they (the layman) have realized an attainment, since in Buddhism there's 4 stages of enlightenment. It's not because it's a big secret for the sake of being a secret that monastics don't reveal their own attainments, it's because if they did so it would potentially lead to alms-givers donating food exclusively to those with the highest attainments and neglecting the rest. There is no issue or rule though with lay followers discussing attainments. You don't even have to become fully enlightened to be free from existential angst - the Buddha said that the remaining suffering for a sotapanna
(first stage of enlightenment) compared to the mass of suffering before their realization, is like a grain of sand in comparison to the whole mass of the earth.

>>13248028
the enlightenment is as real an idea as heaven, i thought it was you who had the problem with that. why are you replying to me?

>>13248031
>Buddhaghosa the Arahant
Meant to say 'Buddhaghosa the Anagami,' whoops

>>13248031
>Any practice that promises results requires faith
like lifting weights to get stronger?

any promise of results that can never be confirmed is what requires faith. my opinion on religion, since it is dependent on faith, is that the faith is all that really mattered and not the promise you have faith in.

>>13248027
Confirm your own. It literally takes a few days to weeks of meditating 1 hr a day for you to realise some of the initial states of liberation, if you do it properly. Once you have experienced these, you can feel confident what they have been talking about it is real.

>>13248047
i had a buddhist stint when i was younger and participated in a personal meditation group of an important official of buddhism in america. good buddhist teachers will actually warn you on the harmful effects of meditation without the right mind set.

>>13248032
No, why would I? I must have mixed you up or something. Farewell

>>13248044
>any promise of results that can never be confirmed is what requires faith
In that case, how about something like therapy? Cognitive behavioural therapy? The results from these things cannot be confirmed, and are dependent on faith. Are they bogus? Is the faith that they work all that really matters with them?
Also, do you not see the difference in the faith required in a practice with exact instructions and a promise that the results can be realized in this lifetime (not even all at once, but incrementally, directly proportionate to the work one puts into it), versus the kind of faith with no practice necessary to realize the results (occuring supposedly after death) beyond the faith itself?

>>13248056
I'm not talking about buddhism. For me personally I started a mantra meditation given to me and after a few days I experienced the states they talk about in books on patanjala yoga.

>>13248056
What are the harmful effects? Are the meditating millienial faggots gonna be btfo in their 40s?

>>13248066
>In that case, how about something like therapy? Cognitive behavioural therapy?
Complete and utter bullshit that doesn't actually do anything. It's for NPC's incapable of introspection.

>>13248070
>What are the harmful effects?
In the Buddhist case, the use of the practices is to make you recognize and accept the transitory, impersonal, unsatisfactory nature of sensory experience. If you're some sort of materialist-hedonist, who clings to this body/life as justification for your hedonism (this is my only life, might as well have maximum pleasure) you'll be in for a shocker when the meditation forces you to realize things that contradict your mindset. Actually, probably anyone who has a mindset that contradicts the view that sensory experience is impersonal, transitory and ultimately unsatisfactory, would be in for that same shocker/rude awakening.
In Buddhism you have to have a basis in the theory and in virtue/morality, before you go off meditating.

>>13248091
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>13248094
???

>>13248070
There are a bunch of studies on meditation induced psychosis among westerners.

>>13248098
my only guess is that he's laughing at the spiritual-materialist millenials who meditate as a self-improvement thing (a la Sam Harris and secular McMindfulness) so they can get that extra bit of efficiency at their job, make more money...etc.

>>13248091
So, you will experience the spirit if you meditate? Is that the point?

>>13248070
if you're thinking the wrong thoughts meditation will only make that worse.

>>13248098
>>13248112
I'm laughing at the complete and utter bullshit he just posted.

>Whoa dude you're in for a rude awakening if you're a hedonist materialist and you try buddhism, shit'll fuck you up bro
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>13248114
You will experience what you really are.

>>13248118
What are the wrong think for Buddhism?

>>13248126
Can you tell us what's bullshit about it?

Recently a girl committed suicide after a meditation retreat because she couldn't handle it.

>>13248128
So, who really are you?

>>13248129
wrong think in general, if your ideas aren't conducive to enlightenment meditation will only push you deeper in the wrong direction. it's not just a matter of quantity...

>>13248134
It's not who, but 'what'. It is called purusha, atman, buddha nature, the logos, nous, the Self etc

>>13248131
>Recently a girl committed suicide after a meditation retreat because she couldn't handle it.
Whoa...like dude...Couldn't it possibly be she was a suicidal nutcase beforehand and being forced to look at her fucked up life pushed her over the edge?

>Can you tell us what's bullshit about it?
All of it. Meditation doesn't do anything.

>>13248139
are you theravada or something?

>>13248139
So, the spirit..?

>>13248141
>dude...Couldn't it possibly be she was a suicidal nutcase beforehand and being forced to look at her fucked up life pushed her over the edge?

Obviously? What else would be meant by her not being able to handle it?

>>13248141
>doesn't do anything
Proof?

>>13248141
>Couldn't it possibly be she was a suicidal nutcase beforehand and being forced to look at her fucked up life pushed her over the edge?
that's kind of what he said dude. still not the whole truth, meditation is not inherently good in all forms.

>>13248150
No, I'm a Hindu.

>>13248151
Yes. Whatever you want to call it, but it is you.

>>13248152
So you're saying if mentally deranged suicidal degenerates try meditation (introspection) they'll kill themselves.

WHOAAAAAAAAA.

>>13248153
Blow bubbles up your own asshole to flush out the devil and then post proof it doesn't do anything

>>13248156
Is the whole truth inherently good? Isn't that what caused this thread in the first place. Pessissism is the the truth rather than optimism.

>>13248160
Are you 14?

If some one has underlying psychological problems, they can appear functional mostly, because they are unaware of the problem. Then when they are forced to see themself, they fall apart.

>>13248141
>Whoa...like dude...Couldn't it possibly be she was a suicidal nutcase beforehand and being forced to look at her fucked up life pushed her over the edge?
https://www.pennlive.com/news/2017/06/york_county_suicide_megan_vogt.html
Seems like a normal person to me.
Also
>Meditation doesn't do anything.
>being forced to look at her fucked up life pushed her over the edge?
That doesn't really line up.
However, your second suggestion could make sense, which is why virtue and morality is taught in Buddhism as a prerequisite to meditation, since if you have shit virtue/morality and you have a lot of ill-will, your mind will be chaotic and too clouded to reach subtle states of concentration. Often people with bad virtue are forced to face their shortcomings when attempting such a practice which deals with the subtleties of the mind.

>>13248163
Oh, I see.

>>13248171
>That doesn't really line up.
It does.

Introspection is what every intelligent human does. "Meditation" is a religion for retards incapable of introspection on their own, who need fucking youtube guides and monks to tell them how to do it.

>>13248168
my experience is functioning better with awareness of my problems, and i think that makes more sense in general than what you said.

>>13248179
you're not exactly supposed to introspect while meditating, it's more about not thinking.

>>13248186
>it's more about not thinking
Literally impossible.

>>13248179
Meditation is just stopping your attention from moving around long enough for you to see how you really are instead of how you imagine you are. It's nothing mystical. Meditative states can happen when you're doing normal things like reading or playing a musical instrument. It's just that
it's also possible to sit down and intentionally try to bring that state about if you understand the principles which make it possible.

>>13248179
Does introspection lead to experiencing the spirit though?

>>13248186
Retard.

>>13248182
My personal experience aligns more with what you are saying, however some western people seem to develop psychosis from meditation. That's all.

>>13248179
>"Meditation" is a religion for retards incapable of introspection on their own
I don't think you know what meditation entails. Introspection (if I'm going by the same definition I think you're using) deals with conceptual thought, ideas, evaluating the contents of one's life. Meditation is a separate practice, involving usually some form of focused concentration on an object, typically the breath or a mantra. In forms, it involves observing the manner in which sense experience (through the five senses as well as thoughts) arise and pass away incessantly on their own. In both cases I've described, neither involve conceptual thought or the evaluation of the contents of one's life.
Both are useful practices, and I would say introspection is a necessary one.

>>13248200
>In forms
*in other forms

>>13248197
hes right tho lmao. good working outing yourself

>>13248188
>>13248197
i understand that you can't actually stop thinking but that is the goal of meditation. "let your mind be like waves in the ocean"

>>13248198
that doesn't contradict what i've been saying about meditation being potentially harmful does it

>>13248188
You don't willingly stop thinking, but thoughts just stop arising in your awareness for a while.

>>13248044
wow what a hot and original and unique opinion that no religious person - ever, anywhere or any time in history - has ever considered. you must be the smartest person in 10th grade

>>13248204
dOn'T THiNk

>>13248186
>>13248188
>>13248197
The purpose of meditation isn't to think, but it's a meme when people say the point is to stop the process of thinking. That'd be like saying meditation is for stopping the process of hearing - thoughts are just something that happen whether you want them to or not. You're supposed to essentially treat thoughts similarly to a sense perception like seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling - not shut the perception off entirely (impossible).
Of course, there are really deep states of meditation where the mind gets so stilled that thoughts stop arising temporarily, but that's another story, and is moreso related to the results of the practice rather than the practice itself.

>>13248225
this isn't self evident? are mediators just retarded?

>>13248227
>this isn't self evident? are mediators just retarded?
It's not meditators but Westerner amazed by exotic traditions who have this idea of being "totally Zen" where you just 'stop thinking bro.'
In reality, the actual traditions that they're trying to mimic don't see it that way at all.

>>13248225
>You're supposed to essentially treat thoughts similarly to a sense perception like seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling - not shut the perception off entirely (impossible).
that's why i dropped the quote here >>13248206