/lit/ - Literature

>>13224015
Yeah.
That’s the start of something great.

>democratize the workplace
if it works... Lefties like to mention Mondragon or whatever it's called, they should be trying to make as many of those as possible to show the feasibility

>>13224015
>Democratize the workplace
That's how it is in Germany. Workers choose who they want to work under. I can see it having flaws, but evidently when people act in good faith it works very well.

What's a non-accumulative currency look like

No.
>a new atheistic movement, a neoromanticism
Fuck off. This is a Coleridge board.

>>13224056
aesthetic nor atheistic retard

>>13224056
aesthetic not atheistic retard. this is a whiteheadian board.

>>13224043
>Workers choose who they want to work under
That’s not what is meant here. WSDEs (worker self-directed enterprise) are fully owned and operated by the workers
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BDiDt74Fyss

>>13224051
Besides the obvious? It works like a personalized coupon. No one gets rich on it, no one bribes with it.

>>13224084
workers are fucking stupid though have you ever actually worked? ceo's actually need to have talent and need to be hardworking at the shit they do.

>>13224084
This is like watching a burning ship trying to cross the strait of Gibraltar.

If a mentally challenged retard were to devise an economic system, it would be considerably more advanced than yours.

Now put your collar on, bitch :3

>>13224146
CEOs are actually a lot dumber. They only look out for their job and how to make more money. So around 10x dumber. Only on the ground level do you have people who know what is needed.
Collectively made decisions are a safer bet for any company. A dozen fools are countered by hundreds of perfectly intelligent people. It’s a far superior arrangement, anon.

>CEOs
>hardworking
Hahaha

>>13224164
THATS IT. STICK IT TO THE MAN.

I SAID PUT YOUR COLLAR ON. PUT IT ON NOW >:3 rrawr

>>13224146
>have you ever actually worked?
I have, every day in a catering company. The amount of bullshit mistakes Corporate makes because they're out of touch with the actual workers and/or customers is mind-boggling, if the power were left to the proles things might actually work properly.

>>13224177
Same here.

>>13224184
Okay but seriously put on your collar :3

>>13224177
that is just poor delegation of responsibilities. it doesn't mean that workers should be involved in high level decisions. obviously this firm is out-competing small owner-operated firms for the moment so it is doing something right.

He just need to teach Hegel in schools

>>13224015
>Democratize the workplace
I'll take 'Things that will bring the economy to a standstill for $200, Alex.'

>>13224253
>>13224275
>scared liberals.jpg

Fool, can’t you see how you contradict yourself? Of course that’s poor delegation of responsibilities. And only people put in monarchical control get away with it. A collective of workers know when a project needs a team with a supervisor/director. Fuck your “high level” bullshit

>>13224297
Do you own a collar with my name on it? If so, I'll tell you what street I'm on.

>>13224297
if management is so lazy and stupid then why don't you have their job? are you being oppressed? is that what you think you big dummy? you have no idea what running a company actually entails. the minutiae that workers complain about is NEVER anywhere near as important to the company or customer as they think it is. thinking that you know better than the boss is just a fantasy to build up your trampled self-esteem. i bet you actually studied literature you buffoon. you probably read books too huh? do you seriously not realize that this whole board is just a big larp to make fun of losers like you?

Support the monarchist party (soon to be created by yours truly). De-judaize the workings of capital. Corporatize the workplace. Institute a currency with my face on it. De-industrialize and ban most types of manufacturing to lessen working hours. And when all this is done, we need to create a new aesthetic movement, neo-futurism. Linkolan monarchical fascism in the future.

>>13224340
1. Have you ever heard of law?
2. I don’t want to run a company. There are people that are well equipped, well trained for their respective jobs, and there can indeed be more trained in a matter of weeks. You’re like a courtier who proclaims that not everyone can be a king.
3. I know quite well who the board is made up of

Yes

No

>institute a non-accumulative currency

I need to stop coming here for my own blood pressure. Talking about economics when you have no education in economics should be banned

>>13224504
>Economics is a high science
>But not if it doesn't jive with my high priests!

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVBfIU1_zO-P_R9keEGdDHQ

>>13224015
The only socialism I support is the national variety.

>>13224504
Besides the unpredictable elements economics is so fucking simple. I hate what a hard to grasp meme it's becoming.

>>13224015
Socialism is inherently opposed to truth, beauty, science, art, and really anything that has the potential to be in any way excellent. Democratic sclerosis par excellence. A dead end in the future of the human mind.

All socialists are subhumans.

>>13224532

Retard

>>13224556

Retard x 100

>>13224572

Retarded but correct

>>13224553
>I support dictatorial capitalism, cuz I’m scared o blacks and jews

>>13224585
Pretty thin stuff Mr. pretend economist

>>13224672

There's so much wrongness to address with Cockshott and other psuedo-economists like him that the only meaningful and efficient way to deal with it as an orthodox (read: legitimate) economist is to simply understand the fact that he will inevitably be damned to obscurity

If you really care, go read some Austrians. They're retarded too but they have a rabid obsession with fighting Marxian economics

And just as Daron Acemoglu doesn't have time to dismantle the myriad crackpot arguments made by heterodox economists on a regular basis, I don't have time to explain to people on a Palauan silverware forum why they're retarded

>>13224672
Butterfly, how many times have I told you: the popular view on this site is a view that is not held in reality.

You are arguing with midgets and toadstools whom you think represent intelligentsia.

National Socialism actually is a form of Marxist-influenced socalism. Very restricted free market. Okay? Hope I could help :3

Many people suffer from a delusion the likes of which is unparalleled: they worship the old axis powers like Germany, (stupidly), on an American website.

>>13224672
You have no idea what you're talking about as usual butterfly.

>>13224717
Germany is still the most important country in Europe even though they were split in half til 30 years ago. How can you not be a German weeaboo ehrlich gesagt

>>13224760
Because I'm an American. :3

>>13224146
>workers are fucking stupid though have you ever actually worked? ceo's actually need to have talent and need to be hardworking at the shit they do.
That's not how democratic workplaces operate though. The CEO/Board is nominated and voted into place through elections, they still have to be competent and respond to the market or the business will suffer the consequences just like normal and they are subject to democratic recall if they don't do well.

The main benefits are if a company wants to outsource to increase shareholder profits the board represents the workers so they won't let the jobs go and if a company wants to dump chemicals in the water the board will vote no because they actually live there and not in California, shareholders want to cut your hours board says no.

>>13224717
>National Socialism actually is a form of Marxist-influenced socalism. Very restricted free market.

>Private companies directed by private individuals that are disproportionally rewarded for carrying out the orders of a small group of people controlling the nation is the same as common public ownership of productive real estate

>>13224711
>Sure they studied economics, but the don’t come to the same conclusions as my favorite kind of economists.
Like pottery
>Austrians
Neoclassical babyheads? Of course they’re retarded. There’s no reason to pay them any attention

>>13224758
>th-th-that’s not what National Socialism is!

>>13224840
It's not what national socialism is, not anymore than regular socialism is still capitalism. You are such a pathetic brainlet.

>>13224822
They are very close, yes. As long as the company is getting their costs equalized by the state, I don't see why the ownership of the capital matters in the end, what you are essentially doing is moving the utility vector farther from the consumers and closer to the producers, you are essentially making them operate at cost, and that's what Nazi's wartime economy was.

We can't be sure what their peacetime economy would look like, but I can guarantee it would involve some amount of economic control. :3 Do some reading.

>>13224840
And you. Have you even read Hayek yet? Put your collar on right now and read some Hayek. :3

>>13224843
I doubt you even know what actual socialism is. Go reasearch for a few years before you answer.

>>13224855
nice one. Are you wearing the collar or not? You have to answer. :3

Butterfly you are addicted to me, you mentioned me in your posts like twice tonight and you have a collar with my name on it :3

>institute a non-accumulative currency

what does this even mean?
make it so that money expires or something?

>>13224253
Except workers wouldn't have direct involvement in high level decisions, they would meanly elect those who make the high level decisions, which just so happens to be the political system in place in all western democratic nations you silly chud retard.

>>13224022
You are by far the worst tripfag on this site. Not even those doctor who tripfags on /tv/ can compare.

>>13224015
Skilled workers quitting their jobs to found a company is not uncommon.

The problem is with unskilled workers, who are literally worth less than the capital they work on/with. Which is why their jobs are sent overseas, even minimum wage is too much to be paying them.

What's the solution? I don't think it's dropping out of the race altogether and conceding the future to China, as described in the pic. You only got to this entitled position of being best in the world cos you let your workaholic capitalists act in their self interest.

Yang gang tax on automation is a good start, but rather than nihilistic UBI, why not have the government pay for you to go to university. To do research, write papers n literature n shit

>>13225003
Yet he made a far more interesting discussion than you did.

>>13225032
>Yet he made a far more interesting discussion than you did.
That was my first post itt and yet I still disagree.

>>13224818
>subject to democratic recall if they don't do well.
In regards to the workers who have no financial stake in the company and so no risk. It's completely asymmetric.
>The main benefits are if a company wants to outsource to increase shareholder profits the board represents the workers so they won't let the jobs go
Shareholders sell.
>shareholders want to cut your hours board says no.
Shareholders sell.

>>13225048
>Shareholders sell.
Ehm, so?

>>13225048

Cooperatives make all workers equal shareholders, thus putting them at risk at every financial decision as well as making them ultimately responsible for said decisions.

>>13225074
Makes it kind of hard to raise capital if no one wants to invest. Shareholders will just invest elsewhere, like in competitors.

>>13225076
>Cooperatives
He wasn't talking about cooperatives.

>>13224015
>Support the Socialist Party
if only the world had some non-corrupted, actually communist parties, and not extremely strong neoliberal power structures with totalitarian tendencies... yeah.

>>13225084
How do they sell their stock if no one wants to invest?

>>13225144
price go down

>>13224015

>>13224015
The workplace is not the place for democracy, it's for the place of meritocracy. There are hierarchies in pretty much everything, they're natural, and have been natural for hundreds of millions of years well before Capitalism. The hierarchy of a typical workplace is that there's a business owner who owns the place of employment. The goal is to make money at this place, but there is much to do and the owner is only one individual, so they hire people to do the work. These people are only of value to the employer if they're making money money than they are being paid, which is pretty obvious. As mentioned, the goal is to make money.

I see, so Marx wanted to cut out the middle man. Remove the employer, and I suppose let the workers take the excess of their labour and redistribute it among themselves? No, that won't do; the square root of workers in seemingly any type of 'work' do 50% of the actual work. So if there's 10 employees, 3 of them are doing half the work. If there's 100, 10 of them are doing half the work. If there's 1000, only 30 of them are doing half the work, and of those 30, the 50% of the work they're doing has half of THAT being done by about 5 of those workers, which means out of 1000 workers, 5 of them are doing 25% of the actual productivity.

So, if everyone gets the same amount of money and the most productive of the group doesn't inevitably climb to the top of the hierarchy, as they should, then what's the incentive to indeed take on such a huge workload? There isn't one, and so productivity inevitably declines. You MUST let meritocracy remain, do not try to do away with hierarchies for they are inevitable, and let the business owner make their profit for without them, the worker couldn't turn their labour into income which allows them to live. Some workers will prove to be highly productive and the aim is for them to become business owners themselves. Let them work hard, climb the hierarchy, and so take over the business through their merit or let them open their own business to hire other workers. Many workers, though, they will not be so productive and will not particularly strive to better themselves. Go to work, check in, do what they have to do, check out, and go home. There is nothing wrong with that, but they will never be business owners and so will never reach the top of the hierarchy. This is correct and proper. If Marx' aim was to create a world of business owners, that is impossible, and to attempt such would destroy both the business owning class and the working class, leaving only destruction, as has happened time and again most recently with Venezuela.

No, OP, he is not right. He's encouraging mass destruction and the death of millions but he doesn't even know it because he's historically illiterate.

>>13225312
Retarded and illiteratepilled.

>As mentioned, the goal is to make money.

>I see, so Marx wanted to cut out the middle man. Remove the employer, and I suppose let the workers take the excess of their labour and redistribute it among themselves?

>So, if everyone gets the same amount of money and the most productive of the group doesn't inevitably climb to the top of the hierarchy, as they should, then what's the incentive to indeed take on such a huge workload?

Put down Peterson and try reading Marx, maybe.

This is going to be an unpopular opinion but butterfly is a master troll.

>>13225303
>thinking Americans can get anything right
>using them as an example
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation

>>13225312
Retard. Most suggestions have worker-owned companies have a share-based system, where high-load or high-responsibility tasks get a bonus fraction for their burdens. There are always challenging tasks that need to be done, that require someone special and ambitious. Managers and directors are always needed to take care of paperwork or to direct efforts. The goal is, however, to guarantee that those positions are filled only by those who have collective approval and earned respect, not by those buying their way in.
In addition, a setup with more or less one-man-one-share guarantees larger efforts, as every member of the working community has the incentive to maximize their collective productivity, as it shows directly in their own income. On top of this, with the workplace community deciding over who is hired, only individuals that are seen as socially compatible with the community and considered worth the "sacrifice" of having another share to share with, are naturally voted for and hired. The same applies to leadership positions. Those who are considered skilled and likely to improve productivity and quality-of-work are of course more likely to be approved of.
With lazing about being socially stigmatized by this arrangement --with it being a literal drain to all-- a system where the community has cause and power to expunge such drains, is without question more flexible and productive.
Naturally, the community can also decide NOT to expand their productivity. They might consider reaching certain level of income and effort sufficient to live and thrive by, and value more free time instead.

This is unlike under wage labour, where a fixed income is the norm, extra effort being rewarded is the exception rather than the rule, etc.

>>13225303
>Fortune
Pathetic

>>13224840
>Neoclassical babyheads
>Austrians

holy shit

stop humiliating yourself

>>13226656
How do you classify Austrian economics?
Certainly not Keynesian

>>13226656
She was fairly correct.

Austrians are unbelievably bad economists. Hayek is, in my opinion, the exception. He seems level headed enough. :3

>>13226684
I’ll bet he was able to balance his checkbook even!

Go sit in your corner now, 3face

>>13226694
Stop being mean to me. I’m not trying to be mean to you. :3

I’m just dominating you :p

>>13226675

They're different schools you fucking mouth breathing retard, there are more schools in economics than just neoclassical and Keynesian (though there really shouldn't be)

Neoclassical economics isn't prax so it's totally inadmissible to Austrians as a study

Read a fucking book before you act smug online

>>13224015
>implying romanticism isn't antithetical to democracy on a conceptional level

>>13224184
>>13224177

Poor faggot mcdonalds trannies think they deserve more handouts for their "hard work".

>>13226814
>though there really shouldn't be)
why ‘shouldn’t there be’???!!?!

What the fuck. :3

Praxeology is largely just a study of temporary institutions at that point in time. It’s largely obsolete and to make matters worse the economists in the school fail to grasp the mathematical side of things: none of them know how indifference curve analysis works and they refuse to pick up Game Theory.

I guess you can say they’re just stupid. (Hayek is no exception to this rule, but his findings are not incorrect)

>>13224084
That doesn´ t explain how do you buy goods and services with, and how it is used to determine which of these is more valuable than others.

>>13226814
Useless post. Didn’t answer one question or demonstrate that you know anything about it. Try again please.

>>13226822
Some aspects of it perhaps. Please expand on this thought.

>>13226828
Fucking neetbucks clown. Get a fucking job.

>neoromanticism
>not necroromanticism
fucked up

>>13226839
You buy with it. The cashier is making money for their time worked (actually there is no cashier. Probably best to automate all that. There’s no till anyway) the shoe that was made with more time put into it is more valuable, but nothing as absurd as the price Chanel puts on there shit. Read Cockshott’s Towards a New Socialism for the full explanation

>>13226872
That shoe is composed of the different elements set to create it. If they are charging an ‘undue’ price for the shoe, then something is either going on with

A. The high quality of the material
Or
B. The high wages they are paying to the workers who made it

:3

>>13226921
R E A D
T H E
B O O K

>>13226928
Have you read Hayek yet? :3

*slaps your ass*

>>13224998
>western nations
>Democratic
Shut the fuck up you moron, you know nothing

>>13226928

>open book to a random chapter
>author lauds MITI and says socialism would be like this but better
>hasn't even read Baldwin & Krugman, 1986
>institutional factors not present in argument
>concerns of capital stock in the post-war economy not present in argument

yeah i'm not reading this trash

>>13226966
>triggered liberal casts gibberish spell
>it is ineffective

>>13226983

>everything I don't understand is gibberish

>>13226983
Fuck older men, you don’t need em

You’re only interested in me bitch :3

>>13226998
you'd make a good femboy.

>>13226989
No, maybe what you say could make sense, but you’re only saying it to confuse and baffle. Typical economics major tactic, whether you know it or not.
On the surface of it, it’s just you bitching that he didn’t feel a need to digress into liberal lines of reasoning. Why would he need to? That’s not the purpose of the book. You’re just being a disingenuous tard

>>13226998
I am in no way attracted to men of any kind, ever in my life. Fuck off

>>13227022
i've been using this board for a day, and ive noticed that ":3" guy keeps following you around. did you out yourself as a chick or smth?

>>13226872
what's stopping me from buying and hoarding gold and silver with my excess currency before it expires?

Why would anyone put in the effort of creating automated cashiers when they would be paid exactly the same labour-hour-dollars same doing something way less stressful? Such as for instance, being a cashier.

If I somehow still have to create an automated cashier system regardless, will you be coercing me not to leave this country to go work in one where I'll be paid properly? Or are you relying on my altruism/devotion to the ideology?

>>13227022

>liberal lines of reasoning

Holy shit stop fucking embarrassing yourself. I am asking you for your own sake

>>13227031
Bud, the only reason I’m doing this shit is because she has masturbated to me before.

She also does other shit, but there have been a few key points which have let me know she’s interested.

Look fag, if you can’t get women I understand, however this shit is fucking tight. She does follow my commands. :3

>>13226983
>>13227022
You've got to be the most retarded poster on this board

>>13224015
Oh look, it's commies having retarded ideas again. Hasn't the 1900s taught anyone that if you take away economic incentives people just don't give a fuck about working hard? Non acumulative currency? It's fucking retarded. Democratize the working place? Why would you let people with no education on management make big decisions? A socialist party? That sure has worked in many countries.
And let's not even pretend half of this fucking thread isn't that stupid trip samefagging all the way to the top of the catalog

>>13227022
You know that’s bullshit BUTTERFLY. GO EXERCISE NOW


>>13227037
Shut the fuck up you retard. If you’re going to post something, offer some level of argument.

>>13227046
Shut the fuck up you piece of shit faggot! :3

Contribute an argument or get the fuck out. She is actually having conversations about economics ITT and -somewhat- being a decent conversationalist.

I don’t think you have any argument.

>>13224818
So instead of the (some percentage of) unfaithful CEOs making decisions in the interest of keeping their job, the workers will unfailingly vote in the interest of preserving their job every time (tragedy of the commons). Now instead of an abuse of the system resulting in damage to a business, you damage the business as due course of the system? Sure sounds like a great way to make sure everyone fails together.

>>13227050

No, fuck you. I'm sick of every idiot having their own pet economic theory and expecting to be taken seriously. To quote a famous economist, nobody goes up to a geologist and say "igneous rocks are fucking bullshit"

>>13227031
Years ago when /lit/ was nicer, anons outted me as a woman, but, I reasoned, “I have posted that I love women.” But they kept at it, and I just confessed a while later.
This 3face guy is only doing this act to annoy me. We’re 100% incompatible even if he were a lesbian too. Just a rude e-stalker.

>>13227034
Well, gold conducts electricity, I guess you could sell it to some electronics company
>paid properly
We reform this system and everyone will live quite comfortably and have a lot more free time on their hands.

>>13227037
There are left and right liberal, bozo. They both defend capitalism

>>13224015
Yeah

The strategy is perfect, just do those things

>>13227070
This. Murray Rothbard said it best

>>13224015

i hate americans

there is no leftism in america. there's only liberalism. the only way to fix that shithole is to nuke it into oblivion.

>>13227073
Reading this from a woman who publicly masturbated to me is adorable <:3

>>13227093
it's the "liberals aren't leftists" retard again.

>>13227097

they aren't. they're capitalist cuckolds. oh wow.

>>13227073

>there are left and right liberal

No, the concern is that you view the inclusion of relevant theoretical and empirical arguments as "liberal reasoning"

Anyway, you are all insufferable. At the very least, if my smugness doesn't impact you, I hope you eventually realize the callousness of your disregard of an entire discipline in its modern form. I'm outta here

>>13227070
Rocks are real, money is a legal fiction

>>13227093
They’ve been lied to for ages, but there is a growing reawakening going on. The same can be said all around the world. Most Yellow Vests aren’t true socialists, but they’re becoming more familiar with it again. Nuke yourself.

>>13227118
>anyway, I’m going to to continue to bluff and bluster my way out of a serious conversation
Okay, bye now.

>>13227073
If i can freely buy and hoard gold, then the currency isn't non-accumulative anymore since gold will be the real accumulative currency.

>We reform this system and everyone will live quite comfortably and have a lot more free time on their hands.
I don't see how that logically follows at all. Maybe the free time part.

Noticed you didn't address why anyone would bother doing any difficult work if they're being paid the same per labour hour. At least with the democratic-work there might be some room to manoeuvre, Cockshott's book is pure feels > reals fantasy

>>13227131

i get that you're an american and it hurts to hear that america needs to be nuked so that actual progress can be made. i get it.

>>13227133
>but I have all the real currency!!
That no one is using as currency. Materials of some use are all things are.
Are you pretending to have read it?

>>13227143
Particular people need it. Try DC mr terrorist you would get their clerical class, though the rulers and their military are much more spread out over the world. Dipshit

>>13227161
If I sell the gold at a later date I will have turned it back into currency. Bypassing the "non-accumulative" nature of the currency

>>13224015
He's a retard. A reform of conduct must come previously to a reform of system. That can only come with morality based on religion.

>>13224711
>Austrians
>Obsession with fighting Marxian economics
Is straw-manning and misunderstanding basic Marxian concepts fighting to you? These people are not worth taking seriously. They are literally zealots from business school trying to push the whole "le economics will never be science" meme.

>>13227161
>>13227073
No one believes you Butterfly! You masturbated to that guy!

>>13224015
>Democratize the workplace
self managed capitalism is still capitalism, with all of capitalism's suicidal momentum

>>13227240
It isn’t a science.

>>13227279
Shutting out the capitalist class leaves markets, it leaves an economy. It does not leave capitalism.

>>13227300
Economics is indeed a science. But Marx was not a scientist, not the one he purports to be. :3

Anyway PUT YOUR DAMN COLLAR ON

>All these leftists suddenly appear on /lit/
Sure is summer

>>13227300
>Market
>Socialism

>>13227368
Oh read some books, for crying out loud.

>>13227382
>p-please just read this obscure pseudo-economist
no one wants to read cockbutt retard

KILL every last LIBERAL

>>13227400
It seems he’s an actual economist
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Cockshott

>>13227423
Some of them are more innocent than others

>>13227382
>>13227400
No, she’s got you man. Socialist societies simply imply maximum utility possible for the workers, I think you could still theoretically have a market depending on the type of socialism. :3

She posts a lot more often on economics

>>13227447
I mean than she used to ;3

Probably because of me

>>13224015
i don't like saying it but for some reason it's an attractive idea

>>13227459
Can you start using a tripcode too?

>>13227065
>(tragedy of the commons)
Why do you think magic words make you correct? This isn't a real thing.

>>13227480
Why? So you can miss out on the cutest two people in history? :3

>>13227443
>because a /leftypol/ user or cockbutt himself wrote on the wikipedia that he's an economist means he's an economist
reminds me of this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_economics

>>13227485
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Manchester
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heriot-Watt_University
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Edinburgh
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Glasgow

Naw. It checks out.

>>13227482
Why do you think saying it isn't makes you correct?

>>13227500
for CS, you absolute retard

>>13224015
>he

>>13227485
>denies someone's credibility, calls them a brainlet
>"hehe his name sound like PENIS! da economist is peepee butt xDDDD lawll did i mention LE FEMINISM!?!??! LAWLLL"
congrats bud i've never seen prove theyre a highschooler on summer vacation in less words than you

>>13227521
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy)#In_statistics

>>13227086
this applies to the state of 4chinz as a whole.

>>13227606
What did your reliable source mean by this?

>>13227788
>pic related

>>13227788
>>13227797
>>13227521
>>13227482
>(Claim) is true.
>Prove it.
>Prove its not!

>>13224177
Yeah tell that to the hundreds of millions of piled up corpses communism has claim; there flesh rotting emaciated in the beam of sunlight, for they will never see another day again.

>>13228218
Always the lamest defense.

1. Capitalism is killing lots of people right now, and is slated to cause our extinction.
2. Only a select few leftists advocate global state authoritarian “socialism” to stop the reactionary twits from reestablishing private capitalism. The vast majority are pushing for something other than Stalinism or whatever it you have nightmares over. They want a different type of socialism

>>13228438
In capitalism people die by their own failings. In communism people die by the failings of others. Hence why only incompetent people want communism.

>>13228481
t. 15 year old who read half of atlas shrugged

>>13228503
Not an argument. Go slobber on Zizek's knob, commie twink.

>>13228503
>t. 12 year old socialist revolutionary

>>13228481
You have five minutes to explain this was only a troll

>>13228481
>Great Tobacco Depression
>South Sea Bubble
>Crisis of 1763
>Great East Indian Bengal Bubble Crash
>Crisis of 1772
>Panic of 1785
>Panic of 1792
>Panic of 1796–1797
>Post-Napoleonic depression
>Panic of 1819
>Panic of 1825
>Panic of 1837
>Panic of 1847
>Panic of 1857
>Panic of 1866
>Panic of 1873
>Panic of 1884
>Panic of 1890
>Panic of 1893
>Panic of 1896
>Panic of 1901
>Panic of 1907
>Depression of 1920-21
>The Great Depression
>The Energy Crisis
>Early 80's Recession
>Black Monday
>Early 90's Recession
>Early 2000's Recession
>The Dot-Com Bubble
>The 2007-2009 Financial Crisis
>The Great Recession
>etc., et al.

>In capitalism people die by their own failings.

>>13228546
people claim agendas by which they think will benefit them the most, either by seeming intelligent, seeming caring, etc. Once they pick one, they want to push it as much as possible without accepting new facts that threaten their ability to seem intelligent.

Anon here simply wants to push his agenda that his highschool economics teacher gave him, and will regurgitate random bits and phrases, while completely ignoring what you've told him, specifically your second point.

He obviously isn't here to discuss or debate, he's here to fling shit, you can't call a shit flinging ape a troll because that's the only thing they know how to do.

>>13228546
>t-trust me guyz, this time it will go right
I want you to take a good hard look at every single corpse lying on the ground. Seriously, take a moment to look at each one. Every corpse was person with a family, a heart, a soul, and capable of love. Their crime? Daring to go against the ideology that you so flippantly support from the comfort of your own home provided to you by the opportunities of capitalism.

>>13228588
>lists a bunch of events caused by government policies or government backed banks
Yeah really good argument against capitalism you got their buddy. Clearly the answer is more power to the state!

>>13228588
you just tried to come up with the most random and arbitrary list of events possible, didn't you?

>>13228647
Bah. Most were caused by deregulation or the free market itself
>inb4 commie
i believe in regulated capitalism

>>13228647
neither communists nor capitalists seem to spend much time talking about how incredibly cancerous banks are. Is it fear of antisemitism or what

>>13228590
I believe it. Will the janitor?

>>13228611
Yes, bby. This time. Since there are several different types of capitalism, there are indeed several different types of socialism. Write it down now.

>>13228647
>government backed banks

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture

its almost as if markets that control the resources necessary for reproduction of life and voluntary democracy are mutually exclusive

Putting aside the veracity of their grand theories for the time being, doing leftists not a have pragmatic bone in their bodies? Do they truly believe that bringing in to being their utopian vision, is as simple as abstracting away from a set of arbitrary metaphysical assumptions (that in most cases they are are unaware of) and willing those accordingly arbitrary abstractions into concrete existence? The source of their lack of pragmatism is their ignorance to the primacy of Power. This is where the reactionaries (proper) have a leg-up on them. "Simply break-up the corporate powers, because my arbitrary metaphysical assumptions say so!"; bravissmo.

>>13224024
Only right wingers mention Mondragon cause it's a company propped up by Franco to show how all socialism must eventually revert to capitalistic modes of production.
He's not right obviously but that's the logic.

>>13228882
You assume a great deal.
We’re the pragmatic ones. Materialism is pragmatic, not metaphysical.
Your veiled threat is precisely why we have tankies waiting around the corner to deal with the violent reactionary. And then you capitalist utopians whale on and on about your lost abstractions, “no fair, no fair!”

>>13224056

Dyslexic fuck

>>13228937
>Materialism is pragmatic, not metaphysical.
You don't know what metaphysics is.
>Your veiled threat
It wasn't a threat from me. Or even a threat for that matter. Rather a warning from your desired future that will never be
>And then you capitalist utopians
I am more of an anti-capitalist than you ever will be. I recommended you you read Bertrand de Jouvenel's "On Power".

>>13229019
Ah. Misread

>>13228903
Ive had a number of leftists bring up Mondragon when I was asking them for examples of leftist successes

>>13229019
Do you know where there’s a pdf to your recommendation?

>>13229074
What was misread and by whom?

>>13229131
I misread, assumed motivation and misinterpreted the anon above...

Now I’m looking for Bertrand de Jouvenel when I should be getting groceries

>>13229119
>>13229151
https://thejournalofneoabsolutism.wordpress.com/2017/05/02/36/
An essay on his most pertinent finding; High/Low vs. Middle. A free pdf of "On Power" is available via google search.

>>13229151
Well informed post, so glad you use the trip so us pedo's can find each other easily and aren't relagated to the indiginty of the dark web. Let's dismember some ridglings soon.

>>13229198
why are people calling buttefly a pedo and why is the trip different

>>13228945
Yeah, dude, dyslexia really does.

>>13229218
They change their trip when they're caught out with an idiotic opinion.

>>13229218
he got caught posting for pedo inclusion on LGBT & changed his trip to what reasoning I know not

>>13229218
He’s a troll, buttmad that I use the name field or that I’m a woman or both.

>>13228588
Well, I looked up several of these... not finding any reports of people starving to death or being killed en masse even though we're talking about some that are over 200 years old which was a time when people were at far greater risk of starvation than any non-Communist/Marxist/Socialist nation of the past century.

Radical left economic systems leave millions dead, and the kill count continues now with Venezuela and North Korea. Capitalism doesn't kill millions, but what it DOES do is allow the opportunity for the poor to climb on the socioeconomic ladder to make a better life of themselves, and indeed the rich can likewise end up poor if they're irresponsible. Blockbuster is no more, Jim Carrey was a homeless boy with his family in Canada one upon a time but is now a millionaire (though granted going through something of a 'get woke, go broke' crisis, even foolishly defending Socialism), Morgan Freeman grew up poor to my understanding but is now a beloved Hollywood actor known for his role as the voice of God among many other things, and I'm pretty sure both James Earle Jones AND his father even though both were Black and lived in actual times of systematic oppression, got to work in acting to make something of themselves.

Capitalism works. It's not perfect, and nothing in the world truly is, but still, it works. In the year 2000 the UN aimed to cut world poverty in half in 15 years. All expectation were exceeded and they managed it within about 12-13 years. This is, by far, thanks to Capitalism. Now, Socialist policies do play a role; there are many people whom, if not for welfare, would be on the street. I've been in that situation myself, even stayed at a couple homeless shelters, and so thanks to such social programs I was spared from true poverty. Capitalism is so damn effective that, in the West, obesity is a vastly greater health problem than starvation. Meanwhile in Venezuela, once the richest nation of South America and just, what, a couple thousand kilometers from the richest nation on the planet (America), their people starve and radical leftists try to burn any foreign food aid that tries to enter the country. Watched it myself. They claimed they were boxes of firearms/ammo to stage a coup.

Well I hope a coup is successful so that Guaido defeats Socialist Maduro, and I would not be particularly bothered if Maduro was hung... or thrown from a helicopter.

>>13230428
>>13230428
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacon%27s_Rebellion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shays%27_Rebellion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haymarket_affair
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre#Massacre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisbee_Deportation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thibodaux_massacre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_View_massacre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grabow_riot
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Railroad_Strike_of_1877#Aftermath_and_legacy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minneapolis_general_strike_of_1934#Martial_law_and_settlement
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1934_West_Coast_waterfront_strike#%22Bloody_Thursday%22
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_General_Strike#Aftermath
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illinois_Central_shopmen%27s_strike_of_1911#Conflict
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pullman_Strike#Federal_intervention
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burlington_railroad_strike_of_1888#Legacy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_switchmen%27s_strike
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cripple_Creek_miners%27_strike_of_1894#Involvement_of_the_state_militia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Viaduct#The_battle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morewood_massacre#Casualties_and_causes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homestead_strike#Arrival_of_the_state_militia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1892_Coeur_d%27Alene_labor_strike#Martial_law
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bituminous_coal_miners%27_strike_of_1894
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leadville_miners%27_strike#Legacy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lattimer_massacre#List_of_victims
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Virden#Calling_in_the_National_Guard
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_strike_of_1902#J.P._Morgan_intervenes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_streetcar_strike_of_1907#Results
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressed_Steel_Car_strike_of_1909#Legacy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westmoreland_County_coal_strike_of_1910%E2%80%9311#Use_of_security_personnel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1912_Lawrence_textile_strike#Casualties
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Diego_free_speech_fight#Jail_conditions_and_civil_disobedience
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldfield,_Nevada_labor_troubles_of_1906-1907#Sending_in_federal_troops
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1913_Paterson_silk_strike#Eventual_Defeat_of_Pageant_and_Strike
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_Country_strike_of_1913%E2%80%9314#Aftermath
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everett_massacre#Death_toll
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel_strike_of_1919#Impact
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaconda_Road_massacre#Strike_and_massacre

>>13230428
>>13230541

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Matewan#Battle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1920_Alabama_coal_strike#Willie_Baird
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herrin_massacre#Chase_and_massacre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_and_Iron_Police#Strike_breakers
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanapepe_massacre#Strikes_and_Massacre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_Mine_massacre#Massacre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Hunger_March#The_Hunger_March
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_B._Gowen#%22Long_Strike%22_and_Mollie_Maguires
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_Springs_massacre#Bodies_found_mutilated
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Railroad_Strike_of_1877#National_Guard
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Southwest_railroad_strike_of_1886#Casualties_and_Martial_Law
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Railroad_Strike_of_1922#Conflict_and_violence
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winnipeg_general_strike#Bloody_Saturday
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia_general_strike_(1910)#The_strike_and_riots
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1892_New_Orleans_general_strike#Aftermath
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scranton_general_strike#Criminal_charges
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1877_St._Louis_general_strike#The_Long_Depression_and_the_Great_Strikes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reading_Railroad_Massacre#Massacre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsburgh_railroad_strike_of_1877#Casualties_and_cost
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_railroad_strike_of_1877#Immediate_aftermath_and_sporadic_violence
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Air_Traffic_Controllers_Organization_(1968)#August_1981_strike

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_coal_wars
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_Wars
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_Labor_Wars
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molly_Maguires
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Range_war
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheep_Wars
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railroad_Wars
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goon_squad
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_scrip
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_town#United_States

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_labor_issues_and_events
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-union_violence_in_the_United_States
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_worker_deaths_in_United_States_labor_disputes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_spying_in_the_United_States
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_union_busting_in_the_United_States

>>13224350
I would unironically vote for this

>"Congress declared its intent, at the same time, to protect the consumers interest. This was to be done by readjusting farm production at a level that would not increase the percentage of consumers' retail expenditures above the percentage returned to the farmer in the prewar base period."[11]

>The juxtaposition of huge agricultural surpluses and the many deaths due to insufficient food shocked many, as well as some of the administrative decisions that happened under the Agricultural Adjustment Act.[12] For example, in an effort to reduce agricultural surpluses, the government paid farmers to reduce crop production[13] and to sell pregnant sows as well as young pigs.[14] Oranges were being soaked with kerosene to prevent their consumption and corn was being burned as fuel because it was so cheap.[12] There were many people, however, as well as livestock in different places starving to death.[12] Farmers slaughtered livestock because feed prices were rising, and they could not afford to feed their own animals.[12] Under the Agricultural Adjustment Act, "plowing under" of pigs was also common to prevent them reaching a reproductive age, as well as donating pigs to the Red Cross.[12]

>>13230541
Looks like many of these situations were of leftist protests that got violent, particularly the Haymarket Affair. Seems like the Bacon Rebellion was a precurser of the American revolution and was also in retalliation to Native attacks on European Settlements.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Also note that so many of them have single-to-double digit fatalities. Pales in comparison to the millions directly killed by Communism/Marxism/Socialism. Not only that but can it truly be contributed to Capitalism? With the Haymarket Affair, it was the leftist protestors who threw a bomb into Police, as far as I'm concerned that's just more fatalities attributable to the left from which the evils of Marxism arose.

Sometimes rights must be fought for, and do note that the majority of these situations are over a century ago when society was very different. Just because people fight for worker's rights and things degrade into violence with some deaths doesn't mean it's attributable to Capitalism. That seems comparable to me pointing to any people who die on the table while being treated under Socialized healthcare as being further fatalities of Communism/Marxism/Socialism, which I think both of us would consider incorrect.

An inherent part of Socialism/Communism/Marxism is authoritarianism. It's putting the collective at greater importance than the individual, and what's worse, is that they point out an 'enemy'. The rich, the wealthy, the business-owners. It stirs hatred, resentment, and malice. It encourages evil. Capitalism encourages the correct thing; individualism and personal responsibility. It's very Christian in that regards, which I like. That which spawns from Marx, it is about the collective facing an enemy as a group, and groups tend to not be as civil as individuals. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone", well when someone is lost in a group, who's to know which stone is the fatal one, or indeed, who's to know who threw a stone? Very dangerous...

>>13229414
I somehow already knew that you told yourself you only get hate because you're a woman

>>>/leftypol/

>>13228903
What the fuck are you on about? Franco had nothing to do with the founding or organization of Mondragon. Shit, he had even been dead for a decade before the name even existed.

>>13224360
Gd everything you say is so fucking retarded, i assume you don't stop because it must be such a crisis to get so old and still be stupid.

>>13230625
>Looks like many of these situations were of republican protests that got violent, particularly that Cromwellian Affair. Seems like the Genoan revolt was a precurser [sic] of the French invasion and was also in retalliation [sic] to Genoan Republic attacks on Corsican settlements.

>Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Also note that so many of them have single-to-double digit fatalities. Pales in comparison to the hundreds of thousands directly killed by revolutionary terror. Not only that but can it truly be contributed to Feudalism? With the French Revolution, it were protestors who stormed the Bastille, as far as I'm concerned that's just more fatalities attributable to the values from which the evils of Republicanism arose.

>Sometimes divine rights must be fought for, and do note that the majority of these situations are over a century ago when society was very different. Just because people fight for peasant's rights and things degrade into violence with some deaths doesn't mean it's attributable to >Feudalism. That seems comparable to me pointing to any people who die on the table while being treated by a barber surgeon as being further fatalities of Republicanism, which I think both of us would consider incorrect.

>An inherent part of Republicanism/Liberalism/Democracy is authoritarianism. It's putting the collective at greater importance than the individual, and what's worse, is that they point out an 'enemy'. The rich, the wealthy, the aristocracy. It stirs hatred, resentment, and malice. It encourages evil. Monarchism encourages the correct thing; individualism and personal responsibility. It's very Christian in that regards, which I like. That which spawns from Milton, it is about the collective facing an enemy as a group, and groups tend to not be as civil as individuals. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone", well when someone is lost in a group, who's to know which stone is the fatal one, or indeed, who's to know who threw a stone? Very dangerous...

>>13228903
Wait so you're fascists? Dude we're on the same side.

>>13230714
Communism is LITERALLY a tool by global capital to keep the edgy proles in check and to oppose everyone who opposes them.

What are the chances you get fired because you denounce yourself as a communist on social media?

>>13230714
You could also say that Capitalism is the worst economic system on the planet, except for all the other ones.

>>13228438
Only global state authoritarian "socialism" works.

Everything is a local nicety, while everywhere else capitalism rampages on

How is this not obvious to you people

>>13228590
Socialist projection

>>13230775
>500 years of slavery in America
>1513-1865
>352 years
>English-speaking American colonies didn't even start until 1619 (1513 is Spanish-owned Florida)
>Less than 250 years for English-speaking America/American colonies

An historically illiterate leftie, who'da thunk it?

>>13230789
>Capitalism creates inequality
No, hierarchies do, and hierarchies have been natural for hundreds of years even before there were trees on the planet. Trees are older than Capitalism, FYI.

>>13224146
Oh great you fell for the "bosses and the rich must be smart cause they are where they are" meme?

>>13230801
>hundreds of years
I meant 'hundreds of millions of years, even before there were trees on the planet.'

>>13230785
>>13230785
>>13230785
Everything else*

Refute this, wannabe socialists. Capitalism is part of human nature, you will never have sustainable socialism until you imperialise the world

>all these seething commies attributing death in socialist 3rd world countries to capitalism
lmao

>>13230812
Why would anyone need to refute this. What the fuck do you think proletarian internationalism means? Read Lenin.

>>13230803
Well whatever the reasons they are certainly above the rest, or they wouldn't be in that position. It's likely a mix of intelligence, dedication, and good looks.

>seize the means of production from capitalists
>it's owned by the state "for now"
>expansion of bureaucracy and formation of the new bureaucratic elites who control the means of production through the government
>"why did this happen, revolution betrayed!!!!!!!!!"

>>13230814
A game-theoretic impossibility.
Not only are you expecting all revolutions to succeed worldwide, but also that they will all cooperate. How did that work for Russia, China, Vietnam?

What a joke ideology honestly

>dictatorship of the proletariat
Where is the proletariat?

>>13228676
Both Hitler and Stalin knew that Jews wanted to control the banks but yeah today both the right and the left can't name the Jew in fear of antisemitism criticism.

>>13230818
Nope mostly nepotism and corruption but you wouldn't know because you're probably not successful anyways.

>>13230834
At least it was themselves who killed them :^)

>>13230834
The most german american states have the least white male suicides, huh

>>13230848
Sorry, I didn't mean to insult your intelligence, dedication, or looks.

>>13230873
Pretty disgusting image, I wouldn't keep posting this one

>>13230814
>>13230828
for real though, how is it ever going to work out and not be a disaster? Are you hoping to eventually come up with a plan before the revolution or just wing it?

>>13230862
You REALLY think you're right? I thought you were trolling but you're probably just special.

>>13230883
Nepotism is prevalent, especially among the Jews.

>>13230775
America is, as Moldbug pointed out, already a communist country.
But global capital, the main pushers of communism obviously don't want to add that killcount to the deaths of communism.

>>13230873
Hmm, are you also a Holocaust denier?
No, of course not, Holocaust denial isn't allowed by global capitalism.