/lit/ - Literature

>>13211588
Philosophy is garbage, theology is kino

>>13211588
Farabi is arguably the best philosopher of all time. Ignore that fascist tripfag who might recommend Maududi. Muslims haven't dealt well with modernity and I think the main reason is the simplistic understanding of their own tradition.

Al-Ghazali, Ibn Hazm, Ibn Arabi.

>>13212903
I'm not a fascist and Maududi was strongly opposed to nationalism

>Islam
>Philosophy

pick one

>>13212916
Islam is very philosophical, Dante put two Muslim philosophers in limbi. In fact despite placing Muhammad (pbuh) in hell, Dante modelled hell and heaven on Islamic accounts, which divide each region into seven levels and describe various tortures in hell. Dante's account of his journey in fact might have been inspired by accounts of Muhammed's Night Journey

>>13212961
He put Averroes and Salahaddin ayyubi in limbo. So just one, but I do agree that certain muslims were philosophically literate.

Muhammad was a pedophile and he raped a 9 year old girl.

>>13212961

Islam is not philosophical whatsoever. It's a compendium of neurotic ramblings from desert dwelling savages and it's completely incompatible with a philosophical way of thinking. It doesn't promote thought it promotes submission.

>>13213829
shut up you dumb boomer

>>13212903
Thank you so much for this thread. I was also wondering about the Islamic philosophic tradition. Where do you suggest starting with Farabi?

>>13213829
Boomer

>>13213912
>>13214053
You obviously haven't spent much time around religious Muslims.

>>13214096
I have, and though I agree it is difficult to believe in Islam as a Muslim, what you are saying is stupid. People - regardless of how religious they claim to be - live religion independently of scriptural sources. Religious attitude and life goes beyond doctrinal positions.

>>13213946
There are a few decent collections by Buttersworth. Mohsin Mahdi also has a good book on Farabi.

Check out the historyofphilosophy.net for a quite good overview of philosophy in the Muslim world. Each episode also has a useful bibliography.

>>13214348
You are the stupid.

Philosophy is not something regular Muslims ever think about. If you mention it, all that comes to their mind is how ghazali and other theologians said it's Haram and evil, synonymous with atheism.

Perhaps you will find some books translated written by inn rushd and ibn Sina from 1000 years ago but contemporary islam as it is lived in the real world is totally anti or non philosophical.

>>13214363
Ok you obviously have some issues. Ex Muslim?

Have you ever read al Ghazali? Actually? Ghazali defends philosophy against the doctrines of the philosophers. E.g. he says ibn Sina makes it seem to be a philosopher you need to accept things contrary to Islam, he quotes Plato and Galen and others agreeing with him, and makes philosophical arguments.

What regulations Muslims think I don't care about. Regular muslims haven't read the Quran, don't speak Arabic, are too busy with everyday life etc. The same goes for Christian's and the Bible or philosophy. How many Catholics have read Aquinas or Augustine?

Religion can have an intellectual aspect, but religion in everyday life (of the common people) has very little to do with the religion of the scholars. You would actually do well to read Al Farabi.

>>13213912
>>13214096

memes

>>13214372
>Have you ever read al Ghazali? Actually? Yes. you seem to be forgetting the book where he totally "refuted" philosophy. He was personally of the opinion that anyone teaching philosophy should be executed.

>What regulations Muslims think I don't care about

Regular Muslims includes the ulema. They all hate philosophy. The people you described who haven't even read the quran won't even know what philosophy is.

Some white/pseudo Muslim western academic professor of Islamic studies who talks about ancient arab philosophers as if they represent actual Islam is not only misrepresenting reality but is actively lying to you.

Farabi was a Shia and according to 85% of Muslims, the Sunnis, he is a kafir and at any rate doesn't represent what the majority of Muslims think. He is a tiny minority within a tiny minority.

>>13214401
You say you are not interested in the majority of muslims but scholars, then you tell me 85% of muslims would call Farabi an infidel for being a shi'a, and that he doesn't represent the majority. Make up your mind.

The average Muslim is not too different from your typical christian grandma who worships without doubt. The ulama all believe something else. Very few muslims, including so-called scholars can explain to me the difference between the aqidas of Abu Hanifa, or Ibn Taymiyya, or Fakhruddin al Razi, or Imam Maturidi, and they are all radically different from one another.

They agree on certain things, yes, and maybe with the exception of Taymiyyah are often called Sunni, but this started with you saying everyday Muslims are horrible people. I think that is a retarded thing to say, even if I grant you that Islam is evil at the source (which I still disagree with), because the majority don't know about the source and practice as they see it in their community.

You are an ex Muslim aren't you? I see where you're coming from, but I actually read books so I don't just let people lie to me. That is a habit you might have kept from your Muslim days.

>>13214401
>>13214372
>>13214363
>>13214348

In my opinion and experience, people of the Abrahamic faiths aren't very philosophical in general, and I have observed of the ummah a general disinclination from philosophy, but I think the reasoning can be conjectured fairly. I'd like to say that, for one, there certainly is a philosophical tradition within Sunni Islam, at least, i've understood as much from lectures attended in the mosque and at school, however, I believe the average Muslim, if they're philosophical literate at all, is more concerned with praxis than theory, and with good reason. Let's compare with Christians for example, who, as far as I've encountered, aren't often philosophical people (but neither is your average man by lit standards), yet undeniably have a Ric philosophical tradition. Now, these Christians may spend much type theorizing and speculating things, investigating the mysteries, and involving themselves deeply in theological complexities, yet they hardly engage in a spiritual praxis as rigid as the average Muslim. Where the average Muslim may not spend his time pondering the religious complexities as found in something like Catholicism, he is praying 5 times a day, attempting to observe the myriad, clear and stern rules of the religion (some of which that even shock the average Western such as abstaining from music and alcohol), fasting for Ramadan, learning to recite surahs, and a host of other greatly fulfilling things. These practices, again in my experience and opinion, enrich the soul with a person wisdom that supercedes that which is attained through philosophical indulgence, and beyond that, nourishes the soul to a contentment which makes the want of further speculation less appetizing. In a word, the average Muslim has their way of life so concisely defined, and so spiritual fulfilled (if they are decently observant), that the time & energy spent philosophizing and intellectualizing the universe may pale in comparison to simply learning about Islam and upholding the Sunnah. And mind you, I say all this while maintaining that the philosophical tradition IS still there, but Sunni Muslims tend to be adamant about "going by the book", likely in reaction to the paganism of Christianity and how philsophy is often indulgent and a "doubt for its own sake". Mind you, even St Augustine stated that knowledge for its own sake was indulgence and sin. Its not wonder that a religion as clear and praxis based as Islam has its adherents less focused on Kantian metaphysics but rather "how can I increase my hassanat, my taqwa, through my actions". Not to say that Christians aren't virtuous and dont strive to be, but on average, I would say the Muslim engages in more forms of worship and particularly enriching ones at that, and that this MAY account for an unwillingness to intellectualize things to the extent that the average lit denizen would deem respectable. Thats just my take anyway, not saying it's right or wrong.

>>13214567

*Rich
*personal

>>13214567
I can agree with most of this. I think the anti-kalam attitude of Salafis is ironically very suitable with sufism, hence Abdulkadir Jaylani converting to Hanbalism and saying Allah is indeed in the sky as the Qur'an states, and there being no room for interpretation. But the traditional Sunni attitude would interpret this because it is logically and philosophically strange to say God is in the world, has a hand etc. Somehow, since Ghazali, there has been a kalam-sufism alliance and Hanbalism is associated with Saudi style capitalist religion, which doesn't really make sense if you think of it on a level completely detached from political reality.

as a young arabic man that recently took up reading last year and even more recently started to develop an interest in philosophy i found this thread very interesting to read. Many of you seem very well read and I would like some suggestions for where to start for islamic philosophy. im fine with reading either arabic or english books.

>>13211588
>what are some good islamic philosophy books? General discussion about islamic theology too
apart from one on its history, Ibn Arabi's Bezels of Wisdom, if you're interested in its philosophy just go back to the origins, the Greeks of which they inherited along with the west.

>>13211588
Quran and hadith

>>13214797
based

>>13214691
I've already over posted ITT

This is a good start and a fantastic project, even for learning about the Greeks. It's good that you can read the original works in Arabic because very few have been translated.
>https://historyofphilosophy.net/islamic-world/formative-period

Start with pic related. It'll make you go 'damn, muslims used to think like *THAT*?' and make you hate muslims of today all the more. Culturally, the way he integrates the hadith is most relevant. Ghazali used to frame every hadith within real world context, as opposed to the retards of today who grow disgusting beards and wear ugly ass robes because 'muh hadith'.

>>13214839
Okay money more post, this is a bad idea. Ihya is not a philosophy book. In fact it is the least philosophical book written by Ghazali, written for the masses, and a lot of the hadith used is very weak and controversial among students of hadith.

I do recommend Frank Griffel's book on Imam al Ghazali's Philosophical Theology, though, if you are interested in an in depth overview. I think it is available on lib.gen.

>>13214847
>and a lot of the hadith used is very weak and controversial among students of hadith.
Opinion discarded. Without reading this first, most of the islamic philosophy I approached afterwards would have been lost on me (even though I'm a practicing muslim).

>>13214874
What does what you say have to do with the hadith in it being weak? I used to be a practising Muslim who thought the Imam could not have made mistakes. He wasnt a muhaddith but a faith and mutakallim. I found his mi'yar al I'm just as helpful for terminology, even though it is basically a translation of Ibn Sina's Danishmand and most of what we take to be his contribution to Islamic philosophy is repetition of what Avicenna said before

>>13214902
Faqih**

>>13214567
While mindlessly engaging with doctrinal praxis can accidentally enrich one's spiritual life and anchor him in some form of balance, away from neuroticism, it is no different than mindlessly reciting mantras during a heroin infused experience, while drooling like a clinical retard. By far the worst corruption of the Abrahamic tradition and it doesn't come as a surprise that its adherents engage with apologetics for anti-intellectualism. The nature of their scripture (what they think of its birth) enables it. That is no way to live for a human. Now, as with anything as vast as Islam, there is a baby with the bathwater, but given the opportunity, at the push of a button, I'd sacrifice both and we'd all be better for it.

>>13214559
You said you are not interested in the majority , not me. You are confused. Read what you wrote.

And I've read books too. I've read all the philosopher's you mention and was a student in a madrassa for several years. You can read 1000 books it makes no difference if you've already decided you believe.

>>13214839
Then read his incoherence of the philosopher's and how he said anyone who teachers philosphy should be killed.

>>13213829
an "introduction to history of philosophy" might be something to look into

in terms of knowledge and difficulty

>>13215099
Post excerpts/quotes or stop making shit up please.

>>13215223
Search 'Iljaam al-‘Awwaam ‘an ‘Ilm al-Kalaam.'

He rejected most of his earlier stances on philosophy in his later life

I'm sorry you cunts were born into this.

>>13214839
The ihya is a book who's purpose is to encourage devotional practice among ordinary people. No westerner is going to be impressed by it.

>>13213829
>It's a compendium of neurotic ramblings from desert dwelling savages and it's completely incompatible with a philosophical way of thinking. It doesn't promote thought it promotes submission.

but enough about christianity

>>13215396
As opppsed to liberalism, or Judeo-Christianity, or some Asian heathen faith?

>>13215485
All shit also.

Being born into a non religious family has its advantages. We don't have anything forced down our throats from birth.

>>13215547
Non-religious means liberalism, at least in the first world.

>>13213829
The Q is.
But since it's also in part the Old Testament and New Testament means that you can ignore Muhammad's epilepsy ramblings and find some truth underneath the lies.

>>13215582
Not to me. My parents are fairly conservative. They just raised me without a religion because they left the church. I never heard much about religion growing up.

>>13215078

I think your take is inconsiderate of the reality brought forth from sincere religious devition. It's no "accidental" balance, but a clear set of instructions on how to achieve peace and happiness. And as one undertakes these instructions , they continually receive the fruits of their actions, and realize the benefits of nourishing their soul. Why is this important? Well, when advocating for philosophical intellectualism we must ask ourselves "what is the goal here?". What use is theory, heaps of knowledge, and mazelike complexities if the soul is not perpetually joyous? Islam provides everything one needs to be satisfied in their soul, and therefore requires no supplementary philosophy if practiced sincerely and diligently. We can mock anti-intellectualism and call it "savage", but if this "savage" has more peace in their soul than the Faustian genius, who has the greater success in life? And mind you, philosophers of myriad traditions have advises the regulation of philosophical inquiry, for it's a well documented means if indulgence when taken too far, and leads more often to a confused, saturation of thought rather than contentment. Now of course, the philosophical Muslim does not do himself a disservice if he approaches the former field moderately, but the Muslim without philosophy has done no harm against his own life-purpose by rejecting intellectualism and simply following the instructions prescribed for him. As a Muslim, you will hear time and time again about how "Islam is simple, people just make it hard", because we KNOW it's simple, but it WORKS, and thie is part of why it's such a beautiful Mercy from our Creator. I know this jargon may be discredited by any skepticism you may have but my point is: Islam makes people happy and fulfilled in life, there is no higher goal than performing God's Will, and since this is the case, there is no shame on anyone who wants no more than just this in life, and to believe otherwise is to be misguided.

>>13215616
Islam simply allows for the most unconscious, automatic path through life, without much suffering, questioning what does all this really mean, you just accept what you are told and don't question anything. Going against what others say and questioning your beliefs makes people uncomfortable, so don't bother, just submit and dont think about things. Keep sleeping.

>>13214096
>Muslims
>religious
LOL

>>13214567
>Abrahamic
>faith
LOL

>>13214902
>I used to be a practising Muslim
Like 99% of the Umma.
Islam is all about pretending.

>>13214733
>Arabi
>Wisdom
LOL

>>13214372
Imagine thinking "Regular Muslims" are any different from "Ex Muslims".

>>13215616
Absolutely no evidence to suggest that mindlessly following prescriptive doctrinal rituals wrapped in uninvestigated metaphysics leads to one having a better inner, or outer spiritual life. Also,prescriptions are too rigid to offer stability in an everchanging environment. On the contrary, they oppose such heuristics.

I'd rather you and others like you be free. I know. It's harder. But regardless, fuck the bathwater and fuck the baby too.

>>13215616
>What use is theory, heaps of knowledge, and mazelike complexities if the soul is not perpetually joyous?
not making retarded and historically ignorant ""arguments"" like these, for example

>>13215716
Well I was right because I recognised some of me in him. Look at this >>13215093

Regular Muslims love hearing how great Islam is, ex muslims naturally cannot stand hearing Islam is good for anything.

>>13215801
>Also,prescriptions are too rigid to offer stability in an everchanging environment. I agree with this, though it works in the desert or mountains. Hence we have things like monasteries/madrassas/zawiyahs. I think urban vs. rural religion always has this problem, though I have less knowledge of eastern traditions.

>>13215716
Well I was right because I recognised some of me in him. Look at this >>13215093

Regular Muslims love hearing how great Islam is, ex muslims naturally cannot stand hearing Islam is good for anything.
>>13215801
>Also,prescriptions are too rigid to offer stability in an everchanging environment.
I agree with this, though it works in the desert or mountains. Hence we have things like monasteries/madrassas/zawiyahs. I think urban vs. rural religion always has this problem, though I have less knowledge of eastern traditions. Let people believe how they will, and make sure the devout don't influence policy.

>>13211588
The Satanic Verses

Does islam teach the golden rule?

>>13215875
Regular muslims don't follow the rules of Islam, just like ex muslims.
Regular muslims just pretend they do.

>>13212961
>Dante modelled hell and heaven on Islamic accounts
Wrong. He modelled it upon St. Augustine's description, which was made centuries before the pedo 'prophet' was even born.

>>13215801

"Id rarher you and others be free, I know its harder" except its not anon. Trust me, I get that Islam is antithetical to Nietzschean philsophy but it makes me happy. When I lived hedonistically and existentially I had too much misery and dissatisfaction. Islam isn't for everyone, but I like trying to submit to God's Will. It feels good spiritually, it's improved my life a lot. And again, the concept of autonomy from God as "liberation" has been challenger by many philsophers for centuries. Even Plotinus mentioned that a man who is free to exercise the will of his desires is not truly free, but a slave to his ego. But slavery to God grants one spititual liberty, and this is the greatest goal. Thats not just an Islamic concept either, you'll find that in Taoism, Buddhism, Christianity, all over. This board's rampant Islamaphobia acts like our philosophy is some sort of radical self-suffication, but it's shared with many mystical teachings, Islam is just the simplest and my most preferred. I get existentialism and the desire to put life in your own hands, but its just not for me, that doesnt satisfy me. Say im a "sheep" but this lifestyle is beautiful, even when it's hard. Being a Muslim, for me, has been more difficult than actual without Higher Order, but it's infinitely more rewarding.

>>13215641

Again, yes, the call of the religion is to submit to God, and I know this idea is ridiculous to non-believers and ex-muslims, but I believe when it's approached with the mind & character for it, it's more fulfilling than anything. Islam just isnt for everyone, and thats fine. I personally do dabbke in a couple other philsophies like taoism, stoicism, hermeticism, basically anything compatible with Islam pleases me. Its been helpful ya, but I don't think anyone NEEDS to do that. I genuinely think if you are a sincere and patient person who goes by just the Qur'an and Hadith you can be happy in life. But not everyone is called to Islam you know?

Also, on the idea of "there's no evidence to show Islam makes people happy" just talk to people. Its the fastest growing religion in the world. Talk to reverts, born Muslims, etc. hear different views. Some understand how beautiful it can be, some despise it, thats any religion. But to have an inherent bias against it is silly to me.

>>13216200
Typical Muslim, attacking strawmen and corrupting Christian apologetics. You also act like I was attacking God. Not at all. I was attacking Islam. Also, Islamophobia, really? This isn't Reddit/bbc/cnn.

>>13216200
Submission to God is great, however if it isn't the real god then you are at best deluded or at worst being controlled by those in power with lies about God.

>>13216200
>Talk to reverts
I have. they mostly seem like people with traumatic upbringings

>born Muslims
So indoctrinated it's impossible for them to consider their beliefs aren't real

> Islam pleases me. Its been helpful ya, but I don't think anyone NEEDS to do that. I genuinely think if you are a sincere and patient person who goes by just the Qur'an and Hadith you can be happy in life

Ok we get it. You don't care about what is real.

>>13215613
Wesfern conservatism is a form of liberalism except for Catholic theocrats

>>13215641
This is basically an elaborate way of saying Islam has all the answers

>>13215681
Islam is realistic, most faiths are subscribed to largely by casuals, hence enforcing observance is fundamental to Islam

>>13216047
No, Islam says to extract tribute from conquered peoples but it does say don't be vindictive, be just and friendly to the kaffir unless he breaks treaty, persecuted you for your religion, or drives you from your home.

>>13216164
The betrothal age in Christian Byzantium was seven, Christians saints would be disgusted by Muhammad's polygamy, not his having a child bride

>>13216272
How is the Creator not the real God?

>>13216337
Drink some water Mo. It's good for you. Iftar come soon bruv.

>>13216337
>How is the Creator not the real God

You don't know that Allah is the creator. You just know what you have been told about him. Based on the convenient nature of many of Mohammad's revelations, it's most likely that Allah is Muhammad's sock puppet. he was simply telling people God wants this so do it, when God had nothing to do with it.

>>13216337
>This is basically an elaborate way of saying Islam has all the answers

How? Living an unconscious automatic life is not a real life. It's a zombies life. If you mean Islam has all the answers to keep you docile and under control then okay.

>>13216373
Allah means the Creator God in Arabic regardless of the Qur'an athenticity. Anyway, he would have had to sock puppet himself out of his tremendous wealth and status into a blockaded exile of suffering for some time despite having many chances to stop

>>13216382
Islam is extremely conscientious

>>13216400
Actually it isnt. All the cleaning rituals etc become totally automatic and mechanical.

>>13216429
You are supposed to be thinking of Allah (swt) during wudu and take a few moments before after the Bismillah to refocus your heart. However I was not even talking about that, I meant things like eating halal and getting up before sunrise everyday

>>13211588
start with the byzantine-turko-islam synthesis music:
https://youtu.be/ksSCw_Xrq6E?t=319

>>13216429
>Muslims
>cleaning anything

>>13216442
>You are supposed to
Islam in a nutshell.
Muslims are supposed to, but they don't.

>>13216442
Actually you just recite some prayers mechanically without understanding what's being said while doing wudu etc, for "reward". Consciousness/mindfulness doesn't matter. The reward is the reason for doing it, nothing else.

>>13216456
Each gets his reward in the next life. For everything else there is Sharia

>>13216472
I love Allah (swt) with a deeper lover than I could any man, it is intense and powerful. Allah's love is stronger than any love you can imagine

>>13216400

This! People who think the Prophet saw was a charlatan don't realize he put himself under tremendous social and political strife before having any success and even after success he lived humbly. If you think hes crazy then fine whatever but if you read the Qur'an and read about his life, it very obviously wasn't for material gain. He was already successful as a merchant and well liked among his people, it's ridiculous to think hed seek wealth through controversial ideas like submission to God alone and greater respect towards women.

>>13216472
Muslims in the West have "Arabic classes" where they memorise verses and learn to recite them, not having the slightest what they mean. I've met numerous British Muslims in their mid to late 20s, not having ever interacted with their scriptures in English. Ever. Despite attending several religious studies events in their mosques and Islamic centres. Fucking WEW.

>>13216499
You love your idea of Allah, and how it makes you feel, which is only in your mind.

>>13216499
>there is Sharia
Where?
Nowhere.

>>13216509
This is not really any worse than the Middle Ages when everyone said the Lord's Prayer in Latin, but I agree Muslims need to learn the meaning much more, not just recite the sounds

>>13216499
>there is Sharia
Sharia is supposed to be enforced
Islam is all about pretending to.

>>13216509
Understanding it isn't really important. The Quran has a talismanic value to Muslims, to ward off things like the evil eye or scorpions. They believe certain verses have magical properties when chanted. The content doesn't really matter when you have this kind of magical worldview.

>>13216499
>I love Allah (swt) with a deeper lover than I could any man, it is intense and powerful. Allah's love is stronger than any love you can imagine
Fake.
You are just a Muslim pretending to actually follow Islam, like all Muslims do.

>>13216517
Many countries

>>13216518
Yes mate. Medieval levels of scriptural literacy in the Christian world seems like an acceptable standard for Wahabi-Salafi funded mosques in the West. I am in total agreement that it perfectly reflects the level at which they want their believers to engage with the world.

>>13216518
>Muslims need to
Islam in a nutshell.
Muslims need to, but they don't, because pretending to is all they do.

Who's the Kierkegaard of Islam?

>>13216532
Nowhere.
And you know it.
All Muslims know it.

>>13216544
He would have been killed by an angry mob for blasphemy before he wrote his first book.

>>13216546
https://www.newsdeeply.com/refugees/articles/2017/06/15/migrant-women-sentenced-for-having-unmarried-sex-in-qatar-2

>>13216518
Muslims don't need to. You get the reward regardless of whether you understand or not. Convenient. It means you get to keep being a zombie while believing you're special.

>>13216550
>He would have been killed by an angry mob for blasphemy before he...
That's what Muslims do to each others.
Every day.

>>13213785
Based

>>13216561
>Qatar
>Islamic country
LOL you are a murtad.

>>13216576
How are they not?

>>13216561
How many Qataris were sentenced to death for having taken a photograph of a human being?
None.
Qataris play with their iphone and do other haram things all the time, because Sharia isn't enforced in Qatar.

>>13216561
Will you be sentenced to death for posting on this haram board?
Nope.
For using this haram thing called the Internet?
Nope.
Because Muslims are fake, and Sharia is nowhere to be found.

>>13216544
There really isn't one, he opposes state religion and religious communities.

>>13216585
For instance: >>13216587
And thousands of other things...
But you know that very well.
You just pretend, like all Muslims.

>>13216587
How is taking photos haram? What fatwa says that? None that I know of

>>13216608
Mohammad said people who make pictures should be killed.

>>13216599
>state
>Islam
If Sharia was enforced, you would be put to death in no time.

>>13216608
Any representation of any living being is haram.
That's why the serpent-like letters you are using are haram, only the geometrical angular arabic letters are hallal.
But you know that very well, murtad.

born to worship allah
westernization is a fuck
kill em all 2001
i am muhajid
5623198 dead americans

>>13216615
Kill yourself boomer, you literally have no idea what you're speaking of.
Even fucking apostates are given 3 days to repent before they get executed, if you're getting put to death under Sharia law you must be trying really hard to prove a point

>>13216614
No, he did not.

>>13216615
Islam is intended to be a united polity

>>13216628
What madhhab do you subscribe to?

>>13216633
>posts a haram picture
>i am muhajid
LOL

>>13216634
>3 days to repent
It's haram, it's not Sharia.
You are a liar, because you are a murtad.

>>13216641
>Islam is intended to
Islam is not "intended to", murtad.
You are afraid.
Good.

>>13216641
>What madhhab do you subscribe to?
No bargaining will save you from your fate, murtad.

shut up about the stinky rug dealer

So /lit/. Predictions for the state of Islam in the next 50 years? Both in the West and the Islamic world.

Does secularism water it down into a form of Anglicanism whereby people don't take leaps of faith to embrace metaphysical claims and engage with it more at the level of a moral philosophy, with philosophical disagreements about metaphysics and epistemology? Are western Muslims more likely to get temporary atheist fedoras, rather than reform it into something that departs from camel-jockeyism and is worthy of the West? Does it go the Houellebecq route and left-liberals unite with emerging Islamic political groups for the sake of the identity politics of the downtrodden and as a consequence they slowly turn the West into a Pakistani village?

Any predictions accepted.

>>13216701
>Predictions for the state of Islam in the next 50 years?
Islam is already an empty shell, because i-phones are soo cool lol and haram is hallal lol.

>Both in the West and the Islamic world.
The so-called Islamic world isn't islamic anymore. Too late. Islam is already a joke.

>>13216671
Stop posing, even ISIS and al-Qaeda don't think photos are haram. There are multiple schools of thought on drawing and painting, however. All of them say depicting prophets is haram. Some say sophisticated, realist drawing of any animated living thing is haram. The most extreme believe drawing any animate living thing is haram. None believes photos are haram because the only objection with drawing (the act itself, not looking at drawings themselves) can lead to a vain pride in creation too similar to God's creating.

>>13216701
>Are western Muslims more likely to get temporary atheist fedoras
Wester Muslims, Middle-Eastern Muslims, Eastern Muslims, all Muslims are already atheist-like LARPERS who don't want to enforce Sharia, at any cost.

>>13216701
Atheism is exploding among arab youth. Anything western is embraced. I predict that the arab world will be highly secularised and religious people with the mullahs will be marginalised and ignored, like fundamentalist Christians are in the west.

>>13216701
In the UK and France it will grow in strength, in America it will come in different varieties lime Judaism, with Reform Islam having a very distinct community from Orthodox Islam. It is possible Reform Imams will become targets of violence

>>13216734
>even ISIS and al-Qaeda don't think photos are haram
Because they are infidels. They like their iphones so much...
And please, don't tell me refusing to use any camera is terrorism.
Refusing to represent living beings is not "extreme", it's not "terrorism", it's just what Muslims do.
Muslims don't phone, they don't take picture of living beings, and if you think that's an impossible thing to to, it's because you are a murtad.

>>13216736
>I predict that the arab world will be highly secularised
It already is.

>>13216743
>In the UK and France it will grow in strength
LOL, iphones are stronger than Islam.

>>13216743
Targets of anti-reformist Muslims you mean? And by Orthodox Islam, do you mean the Wahabi Salafi variety that is peddled in the UK and France? Also how do you envision it growing in strength in the UK and France? By growing demographics alone? Do you think that is sustainable long-term given that British Muslims are the worst performing minority group on virtually any social scale, but as they're climbing up the ladder and moving out of the ghettos they're having less and less kids?

>>13216701
dont know about predictions but here is my take on westernization -

the enlightenment was a deconstruction of christianity which kept it the same phenotypically but rearranged its structure to open up the actual western tripartite ideological structure of liberation, knowledge, and individual materialism. on a whole in unity these western ideas are the metaphorical embodiment of the apple from the garden of eden - it looks so good, so tempting, so tasty, that that which drives us to eat it is pleasure not logic nor love of god, quite the opposite of the latter, and that we eat it at once knowing the consequences and at once not knowing them, usefully forgetting them through our hedonistic fervor. and just as it was the woman who took the mantle for man to eat that apple, so too does she (and her presence of semblance in all of us) convince us to eat the apple of westernization. but behind each of these three gilded golden doors - liberation, knowledge, and individual materialism - that sound so good and appeal to us so powerfully, it lies something much more sinister. like dajjal in white..

and in this white lies the dark, in this liberty lies the ultimate slavery, in this knowledge lies the ultimate ignorance, in the highest wealth of materialism, there too lie the lowest lives

>>13216743
Islam is already an empty shell.
It's too late.

>>13216774
>British Muslims
British Muslims are like the other muslims, they don't follow Islam, because "iphones are so cool lol".

>>13216753
Are you an ulema?

>>13216784
it isnt islam which is the empty shell it is westernized islam

as long as there are decent hold-outs which have any chance at all of victory on any decent scale, like the salafists, there is still hope. the western world order is unsustainable because the west itself is capitulating to the very neocolonialist tactics it projects on developing countries. allah willing, we just have to wait it out

>>13216797
Too late for you, murtad.

>>13216796
Christ man, you keep going on cross-thread schizo paleo-rants about iPhones. Did yours break recently, or what? Shut the fuck up already mate.

>>13216769
Why do you keep bringing up phones? Where does Islam prohibit phones?

>>13216774
By Orthodox I mean any of the four madhhabs

Wahhabis and Salafis are a minority opinion of Habalis, the smallest madhhab

>>13216807
>the salafists
>non-westernized islam
LOL
The salafists are just slaves of the West.

>>13216821
>Where does Islam prohibit phones?
Everywhere, murtad.

>>13216825
agree to an extent actually because they recognize the western structure as a legitimate structure by their opposition
better than many others though

>>13216825
Saudi Arabia issued a fatwa in 2017 that said fighting Jews is haram, so you're not wrong

>>13216821
>Why do you keep bringing up phones? Where does Islam prohibit phones?
The absolute state of Muslims in 2019.
LOL

>>13216839
>their opposition
LOL they suck infidel dicks like whores, that's all they do.

>>13211588
The Quran

>>13216743

while we in the US do have some pretty strong reform muslim communities like in houston, come on my man. they are tiny and irrelevant except to local city culture. in the hundreds in other places here. so you should at least note that distinction, since in europe muslims will be more germane, and not comparable for example to reform jews in the US who are more prevalent. what will really happen in the US, and is already beginning with the zoomers to some degree, is a "fifth revival", i.e. another christian wave but this time it's hispanics, so in 2050 the main quibble of muslims with the US mainstream will be against the beanoid revivalist mud people versus your small demographic of exotic rugmen[sic] who don't guzzle HFCS with every meal (I kid but it's true). the future of islam, like any future, is tied to demographics, and in the US the demography favors fat people from central america who are still tripping off catholic fumes. islam has no future here, it's an eastern hemisphere thing. I'm not making a value judgement, just sayin'.

Fucking WEW lads.
The ultimate defining feature of 4chan is the fedora after all. FIrst it was Fedora Atheits. Then Fedora Christians. Now Fedora Muslims. Imagine actually having Muslims on here.

>>13216842
And there is still NO fatwa telling Muslims to destroy Saudi Arabia.
Because Muslims are afraid.
Because they have no faith.
Because Islam is all about pretending.
Islam is an empty shell. A joke.
Islam is weak.
All Muslims know that.

>>13216842
Saudi Arabia never fighted Jews before 2017 either.
NEVER.
EVER.

>>13216797
Spotted the larper. Ulema is plural. Alim is singular. You would know that if you weren't a larping whitey pretending to be Muslim online.

>>13216842

I'm surprised you've stayed in this thread so long encouraging these replies. Save yourself the time, everyone's minds are already made up about the religion. Allahumma baarik lahu

>>13216891
>Muslim
>online
Internet is haram you retard.

>>13216884
I don't think you know how fatwas works. They aren't proclamations by clergy, they are rulings by professional jurists on the nature of what is legal and illegal

>>13216890
As the Anglo is to the planet, as the German is to Europe, the Saudi is to the Ummah.

>>13216903
this, murtad: >>13216904

>>13216891
Alim is the definate, not indefinate, singular, it generally refers to God.

>>13216916
>As the Anglo is to the planet, as the German is to Europe, the Saudi is to the Ummah.
Tell me more about all these islamic countries actually at war with Israel...
LOL

>>13216923
Incorrect. An alim is the singular of the plural ulema. You can't even into arabic.

>>13216927
The ones that want to be at war with the United States, i.e. none. However some support Hamas

>>13216916
>professional jurists
Professional jurists is a haram thing.
But you already know that, murtad.

>>13216935
Yes, the definite singular, not the indefinate singular. "The" not "an"

>>13216923
>>13216935
Muslims fighting each-others.
Islam in a nutshell.
Islam is Weakness.

>>13216939
>that want to be
Islam in a nutshell.
Islam is all about pretending.
Islam is Weakness.

>>13216953
He is not a Muslim, he is someone who just looked up Ulema to find out what it means and read the Wikipedia article

>>13216939
Imagine "wanting to do something" instead of doing it because you don't have any faith in your heart, just fear and weakness.
It's called Islam.

>>13216943
You can't even into arabic grammar.

Al alim(u) with the u(damma) raf'/nominative case ending is definite. Alim(un) with the tanween case ending indicates it is indefinite. In either case it is singular while ulema, which is what you incorrectly used, is the jam' at takseer/broken plural meaning multiple alims. Admit you were wrong and a larping whitey now.

>>13216958
Muhammad, peace be upon him, did not fight his persecutors until he had the power to do so

>>13216966
You aren't a muslim either, murtad: >>13216904

>>13216975
Oh that must be the reason why Muslims do haram things all the time...
They play Pokemon on their iphones to gain power...

>>13216974
>You can't even into arabic grammar.
Imagine bragging about knowing arabic grammar.
LOL

>>13216974
I never known Alim used except as a name of Allah, but I do concede I am incorrect in use of the singular here. I am not fluent in Arabic (most Muslims are not), altgough I am learning and have learned to understand Salah

>>13216975
Muhammad destroyed the religion of the Arabs and then forced them to worship the god of the Jews.

>>13217020
>most Muslims are not
Muslims don't really care about Islam.
Pretending is all they do.

>>13217021
Arabs already believed in Allah, they just worshipped hundeds of other gods as well, often for intercession with Allah

>>13217043
Because Arabs and Jews are the same people: the Semites.

>>13216256
>I was attacking Islam
>Islamophobia, really?
Yes.

If by God we mean Truth and Righteousness lived communally, then I submit. If by it we mean specific dialogues and doctrines as they have been interpreted by some people, then I do not, and cannot. The Qur'an itself mocks those who claim something is inherently better because of tradition and majority. I do not have to accept everything the book says, and the most important issue is to defend 'heretics'. The most disgusting aspect of Islam is not pedophilia or his or that but irtidad. It is everyone's God given right to choose their faith.

>>13216507
Most tafsirs interpret Nisa 5, sufahaukum (your idiots) as meaning women. Why is God so mean to women? He is basically aristotelean, but definitely not respecting women.

>>13216596
I am quite glad desu

Sharia served its function civilising desert dwellers. For the 21st century it is moot.

>>13217194
Meaningless incoherent drivel.

what about sufist or more out there islam?
gnostic islam?

>>13214401
Muslims are the best philosophers. The Sufis.

>>13214401
Avicenna

Hayy Ibn Yaqzan

>>13214567
Based and truthpilled

>>13215801
He's a happy slave, don't disturb his bondage.

Al hallaj is the only one worth reading because he was a crypto christian

>>13218926
Sufis are the most hostile to philosophy

>>13220119
Not true. Sufism is basically romanticism. Irrational bs is very popular among philosophers, cf. Heidegger.

>>13218967
Nyarlathotep is stronger

>>13220119
Sufis are junkie hare-Krishna-tier losers.

>>13217009
That's quite a feat desu
I'd brag about it too

Will Islam be the ideology to surpass where communism and fascism failed and overcome liberalism?

>>13220166
*spits on your face*
*laughs*

>>13220173
>Will
>Islam
Todays emtpy shell Islam are the biggest asset of liberalism
Keep playing with your iphone, murtad!

>>13220173
>Will
>Islam
The emtpy-shell Islam of today is the biggest asset of liberalism
Keep playing with your iphone, murtad!

>>13220126
You don't know anything. In the real world outside of books, sufis hate philosophy as much as wahhabis.