/lit/ - Literature

>>13112913
>morral sin can't be forgiven
False the only thing that won't be forgiven is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost which is the Negation of Hope, which is committing suicide.
Mortal sins are simply sins that go beyond simple concupiscience or excess of a good. Masturbating is a regular sin because You fall to It by not containing your sexual urge to lawful outlets. Fornication by definition requires actively being a slut and going consciously against God's word.

tldr: a brainlet makes a strawman, it falls on It's own in 5 minutes.

>>13112938
Masturbation falls under fornication and is likewise a mortal sin.

>>13112938
>morral
Yes yes Father, this is all very convincing, but I think it's about time for your nap.

>>13112938
Aquinas considered masturbation to be even more unlawful than than fornication, which at least is rooted in nature.

>>13112913
>>Without any doubt we must hold simple fornication to be a mortal sin.
It is.
>Jesus literally forgave harlots, and a mortal sin by definition cannot be forgiven.
t. Doesn't know what a mortal sin is.

>>13112913
>a mortal sin by definition cannot be forgiven
Yikes.

>>13112948
CCC
2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."138 "The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose." For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."139

To form an equitable judgment about the subjects' moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.
2353 Fornication is carnal union between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman. It is gravely contrary to the dignity of persons and of human sexuality which is naturally ordered to the good of spouses and the generation and education of children. Moreover, it is a grave scandal when there is corruption of the young.

>>lol the CCC I'm not Catholic lol
I am, Aquina was And nobody gives a fuck which heresiarch diddled your ass.

>>13112965
That does not contradict this >>13112948

>>13112913
God can forgive all sin now run along

>>13112952
>makes an error writing, argument invalid
May the Lord make You live and converse by the standards you make others follow. Amen
>>13112955
No he didn't. Else he wouldn't be In communion with the Church.

>>13112965
>social factors
Is being so ugly and undesirable that all women are automatically and instantly repulsed by your presence an example of this?

>>13112969
Yes it does. It's not a mortal sin and It's deliberately made distinct from Fornication. You can only affirm the contrary by being intellectually dishonest or unable to read.

>>13112976
No. Most people however just don't consider it such a big deal Because they've been badly catechized after CVII. Hardly their fault.

>1854 Sins are rightly evaluated according to their gravity. The distinction between mortal and venial sin, already evident in Scripture,129 became part of the tradition of the Church. It is corroborated by human experience.

1855 Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God's law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him.

Venial sin allows charity to subsist, even though it offends and wounds it.

1856 Mortal sin, by attacking the vital principle within us - that is, charity - necessitates a new initiative of God's mercy and a conversion of heart which is normally accomplished within the setting of the sacrament of reconciliation:

When the will sets itself upon something that is of its nature incompatible with the charity that orients man toward his ultimate end, then the sin is mortal by its very object . . . whether it contradicts the love of God, such as blasphemy or perjury, or the love of neighbor, such as homicide or adultery. . . . But when the sinner's will is set upon something that of its nature involves a disorder, but is not opposed to the love of God and neighbor, such as thoughtless chatter or immoderate laughter and the like, such sins are venial.130
1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."131

Actual definition of mortal sin. The OP is a brainlet and a strawman-builder.

>>13112938
>the only thing that won't be forgiven is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost
I blaspheme thee, holy ghost! Is this enough? I really want to embrace damnation and burn in hell forever. think of it as the ultimate ''fuck you'' to God, if God does indeed exist, doing willlingly damning yourself to hell would be the most punk rock thing in the universe.

>>13112973
Yes, he did.

>In every genus, worst of all is the corruption of the principle on which the rest depend. Now the principles of reason are those things that are according to nature, because reason presupposes things as determined by nature, before disposing of other things according as it is fitting. This may be observed both in speculative and in practical matters. Wherefore just as in speculative matters the most grievous and shameful error is that which is about things the knowledge of which is naturally bestowed on man, so in matters of action it is most grave and shameful to act against things as determined by nature. Therefore, since by the unnatural vices man transgresses that which has been determined by nature with regard to the use of venereal actions, it follows that in this matter this sin is gravest of all. After it comes incest, which, as stated above (Article [9]), is contrary to the natural respect which we owe persons related to us"

>>13112979
Masturbation meets all conditions of being a mortal sin.

>>13112938
>>13112973
t. Fr. Boomer justifying and excusing the mortal sin of Masturbation. Enjoy hell. Leading others to sin is the worst thing you can do.

> St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, Pt. II-II, Q. 154, A. 11: “I answer that, As stated above (A6,9) wherever there occurs a special kind of deformity whereby the venereal act is rendered unbecoming, there is a determinate species of lust. This may occur in two ways: First, through being contrary to right reason, and this is common to all lustful vices; secondly, because, in addition, it is contrary to the natural order of the venereal act as becoming to the human race: and this is called “the unnatural vice.” This may happen in several ways. First, by procuring pollution, without any copulation, for the sake of venereal pleasure: this pertains to the sin of “uncleanness” which some call “effeminacy.” Secondly, by copulation with a thing of undue species, and this is called “bestiality.” Thirdly, by copulation with an undue sex, male with male, or female with female, as the Apostle states (Romans 1:27): and this is called the “vice of sodomy.” Fourthly, by not observing the natural manner of copulation, either as to undue means, or as to other monstrous and bestial manners of copulation.”

>>13112996
based as fuck
honestly going to heaven is for lames
lemme get some of that eternal pain and suffering
better to enter hell with both of my balls than to enter heaven a eunuch

>>13112996
I'm not a Catholic, but with that in mind, I read Hebrews 6 as saying that Christian perfection is the seventh principle in Paul's list, and that only if you achieve Christian perfection and then apostasize willfully is it impossible to be forgiven of something. Now if you want to know what Christian perfection is about, a good place to start is 1 John 3. My view is that very few people have the proper capacity to commit the unforgivable sin as a result. Tough luck anon.

>>13112913
>Cumbrains trying out theology
JUST

>>13112938
>>13112965
>dude masturbation isn't so bad! I mean y-you're not married dude, so its OK. i mean it could be worse, forget Aquinas, it's not a mortal sin, let me just vaguely quote a simple distinction between two grave acts and put my own perverse slant on it
KILL YOURSELF, FRAUD.
BURN IN HELL

>>13112938
How do I know if me and the Holy Spirit are cool? I might have blasphemed it a few times.

>>13113029
You can start by not asking a fraud justifying his sin for advice.

>>13113029
how many times have you called someone a degenerate bugman numale?
how many wojaks have you posted?

You need to have browsed /pol/ for at least 1000 hours before any Catholic god respects you

>>13113019
afraid of puss puss

>>13113028
lmao at a polfag going to catholic church thinking they are joining the redpill crusader army and finding out its all old women and african immigrants

>>13112996
>punk rock
Cringe.

>>13113041
>in it for the players not the game
NEGRO
>>13113028
They’ll see the light, hope for the conversion of the sexually intoxicated becuase of all things they damage themselves the most

>>13113028
>makes an even bigger strawman
Nobody ever said mssturbation isn't bad i quoted an official text that says the exact opposite.
False testimony actually senda You to hell.
>>13113029
You haven't committed suicide I presume unless You're a ghost

>>13113041
ironically, that meme isn't about race at all and pokes fun of it. generic homilies about astroturfed issues have NOTHING to do with the faith, and is an affront on it and attempt to be current, falling after the rudiments of this earth and men instead of celestial affairs

>>13113008
I quoted the CCC.
May your satanic words be used to flog You eternally in hell Because You are falsely testifying against Me.

>>13112996
You litteraly have to kys to do It properly.
At This point feel free.

>>13112938

Sounds like the Holy Spirit gets the short end of the stick.

Make jokes about or deliberately disrespect Allah, Muhammad: instant blasphemy.

Paint a picture of Jesus sinking in urine: blasphemy.

Talking shit about the Holy Spirit:... nah goy, that ain't blasphemy...you gotta kill yourself to get that one.

Sounds bogus to me.

>larpers pretending to be Catholic directly contradict the CCC and quote Aquinas out of context.
Building strawman upon strawman even when presented with the actual definition of Mortal Sin.
>feel like they have the authority to accuse anyone ever.
When Demons will fucking chew on your balls eternally You'll think twice about false testimony fucking retards.

>>13113064
If you are going to be right wing why not be a neitzschean social darwinist neopagan LARPer with a penchant for nazi mysticism and satanic imagery? For me the right wing is and should be fundamentally anti christian, Jesus Christ was the original SJW and is basically to blame for the current sorry state of the west. If I hate the trannies and the communists is not because I see them as sinners or degenerates, but because in every one of their faggot faces I see the hateful visage of the nazarene reflected back at me.

>>13113067
Idiot.
Blasphemy against Jesus CAN be forgiven If You repented.
Against the Holy Spirit it WON'T.
It's a lot worse to blasphemeagainst the Spirit than against anyone else.
But We know by now You don't actually give a fuck about what other people are saying, so feel free to feel like You're damned.

>>13113075
>continues straw man anyways

>>13113008
>tfw the greatest mind of the church equates /lgbt/ with bestiality

>>13112938
>>13112958
>>13112959
>>13113019
>>13113074
t. catholics who don't understand 1 john

>>13113075
>Jesus Christ was the original SJW
The complete and total opposite of the truth as usual.
Jesus was litteraly killed for being too much of a politically incorrect edgelord by rabbinic definition.

>>13113088
False. Protestants dont.

>>13113084
It's How We know he's the greatest mind of the Church. He's absolutely correct.

>>13112997
>Masturbation meets all conditions of being a mortal sin.
If You go for deliberate porn binges, perhaps.

>>13112913
>a mortal sin by definition cannot be forgiven
where the hell did yo uget this from?

>>13113098
we have to distinguish between the pederasty of the ancients(which is a noble and elevated pursuit) and modern lgbt(which is degenerate Faggotry). That's what catholics don't get, they have much more in common with the queers that they think, mired as they are in the swamp of slave morality. You can trace a direct line from the flagellants in catholic processions to the bdsm leather goblins at pride parades, same fundamental principle at work here.

>>13113117
>we have to distinguish between the pederasty of the ancients(which is a noble and elevated pursuit) and modern lgbt(which is degenerate Faggotry).
No such distinction for a Christian.
>>13113112
Fucking Good question. He doesn't actually give a shit about the definition of mortal sin anyway.

>>13113117
>You can trace a direct line from the flagellants in catholic processions to the bdsm leather goblins at pride parades, same fundamental principle at work here.
No you can't.
Reveling in pain and sin and wanting to indulge in it more is the fucking polar opposite of showing repentance or austerità through an extreme act.
Why fuvking hindus and bhuddists starve themselves and torture each other endlessly and never have to tollerate This kind of crap?

is suicide the only way to commit blaspheme against the holy spirit?
If I said "the holy spirit is a massive gay niggerfaggot" is that not blaspheme?

>>13113130
It's blasphemy, but not blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. It doesn't give a fuck basically.

>>13113154
Here.
If You commit actual blasphemy against the Holy Spirit; Jesus the guy that forgives everybody WON'T forgive you.
The one truly unforgivable thing that Hitler did was offing himself. If he has repented and faced execution he would be in the Kingdom of God.

>>13112913
Jesus would destroy our modern church and puke on the ruins.

>>13113160
I am young, so I have a time to commit all the sins I want to before I settle down and repent, I think I get the appeal of catholicism, its like a carte blanche to indulge in the sort of libertine debauchery that would make even the divine marquis(de sade) blush

>>13113172
The fruits of the Spirit are joy, or so the Jesus says. The truest libertine debauchery is worshipping God.

>>13113172
Nobody likes smart guys.
Repentance is either sincere or blasphemy.
You people honestly and truly can't discuss theology without insulting everyone else.

>>13113084
It's just as bad. Probably worse considering it debases fellow man.

>>13113008
>>13113084
In the solution of the question 154 he spoke about the act against nature and rate them from worst to least worst:
Bestiality > Homosexuality > Non vagina coitus (using anything else than the penis and the vagina) > Non missionary sex > Masturbation

So for Aquinas doggy style is a worst sin than masturbation.

how has christianity lasted this long

>>13113174
Ecstasy as described by St Therese of Avila is indeed the truest pleasure.
>>13113172
>The movement of return to God, called conversion and repentance, entails sorrow for and abhorrence of sins committed, and the firm purpose of sinning no more in the future. Conversion touches the past and the future and is nourished by hope in God's mercy” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, Nos. 1489-90)
You pass all your life debauching thinking You're smart.
You go to hell Because You aren't really regretful, You're just trying to game the system.
Send Pascal my regards when you get there.

>>13113187
Thank you.
It absolutely is tho.

>>13113172
how do i get invited to one of these parties?

>>13113172
>I'm young
>I'll just game God
>when I'm old
By the time you'll get old, you won't be able to resist your jerking off, fagget.
Irony is if you truly do try to repent then, it will be way harder than if you'd try and tame yourself now.

>>13113208
This is so true.

>>13113208
YES!!!!!!
>quippe ex voluntate perversa facta est libido, et dum servitur libidini, facta est consuetudo, et dum consuetudini non resistitur, facta est necessitas.

>>13113191
It will last untill the end times when ever that is.

>>13113191
It did nofap.

>>13113170
Jesus can do it right now and doesn't.

>>13112913
>tfw still get triggered when people call masturbation a heavy mortal sin
>tfw know from personal experience that masturbation is total degenerate bullshit and they're right
>tfw still have a hard time quitting masturbation

>>13113172
This is the sin of presumption. You're not going to outsmart God.

>>13113084
Where the hell do you see an equation?

>>13113208
>it will be way harder than if you'd try and tame yourself now
Nah, it's much easier to "repent" after your hormones have calmed down and your test levels plummeted.

Catholic priests unfortunately have the tendency to do the opposite and repress themselves when they're younger just to unleash it all later on some altar boy.

>>13113291
>attacks and attacks on every front
>when one is proven inefficient he changes to the next
>he is morally and intellectually honest and has no second motive no siree!
There are incomparably more pedophiles in the public education system that produced You than in the Church.

>>13113301
Literally just opened this thread, senpai.

>There are incomparably more pedophiles in the public education system that produced You than in the Church
You seem surprised that the church covers their asses better than a public institution.

>>13113301
this is why I am endlessly amused by the catholics and marxists of /lit/(and also the transexuals) it's so easy to mess with people who have the temerity and the stupidity to Actually Believe in Things

>>13113316
based southpark fan

>>13113291
that is what happens when you implement mandatory celibacy among the clergy but based orthodox dont have that problem

>>13113342

Does anyone in the Orthodox realm have aspirations towards forging a worldwide Orthodox church or does it relish in its regionalism?

>>13113160
>>13113103
>>13113081

What's with the capitalization of "You"? We're all gods or god is in all of us or some shit like that?

>>13113314
Or the medias are anticatholic, as they have admitted they are again and again.
But you know Don't let truth stop You.
>>13113316
You're the laughingstock of the world.
You are so thick and earnest with your assumption that you can't conceive of someone not sharing them.

>>13113314
>Literally just opened this thread, senpai
Liar.

>>13113360
I just have the autocorrect on.

>>13113366
Yeah, let's ignore all the confirmed cases of sexual abuse because your pedo church can do no wrong, right?

>>13113369
>doesn't check the poster counter every 5 seconds

>>13113390
>lets ignore
You KNOW I never said anything like that. You KNOW it.
There's nobody who hates babyfuckers more than Catholics.
This whole thing is disgusting and i want nothing else but the fucking day of the rope.
But, Also, I'll fucking die before I stop saying the truth.
Atheists are in no position to criticize the Church Because anything bad some member of the church may do, they istituitonally and deliberately do worse.
False equivalences will have no purchase here.

>>13113408
You support an institution that systematically covers their sex scandals and protects pedophiles. You're like a moderate Muslim saying he condemns the actions of extremists while allowing them to operate. Catholics like you are plenty and worthless since none of you will ever do shit about the pedo church but defend it on the internet.

Also, nice tu quoque but atheists don't have an institution to do any of that you're saying nor an ultimate authority like the pope, so unless you count every single secular institution as belonging to some atheist collective (which is absolutely retarded but I wouldn't put past you) you have no argument.

>>13113438
No I dont. You do Since You support public education.
Go fuck yourself.

>>13112938
>which is the Negation of Hope, which is committing suicide.
[citation needed]
really, can you explain the basis for that claim?

>>13112938
>blasphemy against the Holy Ghost which is the Negation of Hope, which is committing suicide
Incorrect. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is denying God consciously like Lucifer did. There is a reason we don't experience God fully. If we did, and we rejected Him in that state, we'd be damned to hell instantly, but God, recognizing our arrested development, allows us to grow as He slowly reveals Himself to us.

>>13113291
sexual behavior is more a product of habit than hormones. studies confirm this.

>>13113444
Yes you do, you piece of shit. And your public education scapegoat won't change the FACT that YOU and other Catholics allow those pedophiles to run free.

>>13113291
>I'll fuck up my hormones with testosterone imbalance and let it work itself out later
Have fun dealing with chemical depression when that happens, fagget.

>>13112913
He forgave repentant whores, who didn't continue to whore. Fuck off with your misunderstandings

>>13113291
>Catholic priests repress themselves
>unleash it all later on some altar boy later
lol
>I'm not going to repress myself now
>so I'll be super balanced later
LOOO

>>13113360
We relish in our regionalism (except for Bartholomew). It's a way for us to keep everyone in check.

>>13113490
>>13113503
>the cope

>>13113445
The Holy spirit is the Paraclete, the consoler. If You lose all hope to the point of committing suicide, You insult Him. As easy as that.
>>13113447
Incorrect. God has already revealed himself fully through His Son and His Church. There is no "progress" in salvation which would justified your stance.

>>13113454
Catholics are hopeless.
They have the moral obligation of rejecting their corrupt church but pride alone prevents them from doing so.

>>13113528
Who cares, it's their kids who'll suffer when cardinal Marx is feeling like he can't tame himself any longer.

>>13113519
>the cope
You honestly think I have to cope with you justifying masturbation because (((muh definitely Catholics))) molest kids?
You poor, sad bastard.

>>13112913
>sex bad
>pleasure bad
>fun bad
God gives a child a toy and tells the child he'll go to hell if he plays with it. Is god not, then, a sadist?

>>13113577
>catholicuck unironically believes masturbation requires "justification"
>blames age old roman tradition of boyfucking in the church on the kikes
>thinks I'm the sad one

>>13112913
Reminder that chadJesus fucked prostitutes all the time. The ladies loved him.

>>13113089
He was killed for being too much of a commie SJW by rabbinic definition.
Read the Bible.

>>13113630
But Jesus was gay according to the gospels of John and secret Mark.

>>13113075
If not for Christianity, Europe would still be incestuous

>>13113652
Europe was incestuous well into Christianity dumbass

>>13113613
>he thinks I'm Catholic
>he thinks stroking your dick for some dope is fine
>he thinks he's not sad
The cope.

>>13113675
>trying to shift the blame away from the pedo church
>brainwashed enough to believe masturbation is wrong
>not catholic
Well, guess you're lucky vidyas aren't forbidden by the church, otherwise you'd have probably killed yourself by now.

>>13113228
He’s dead

>>13112996
Imagine being this guy.

lmao just do what you like, if you go to hell then fuck it who cares
not like you can do anything about it once you get there

>>13113713
>it's the pedo church which is bad
>jacking off is amazing
The Cope 2: Son of Cope

>>13113902
>it's the pedo church which is bad
>jacking off is amazing
Now you get it.

>>13113930
>>13113902
God IS good
meaning he is THE GOOD
The Church is of GOD and GOOD
Therefore Pedophilia is GOOD

>>13113878
if god exists, then it follows that to piss off God is the most patrician pursuit imaginable

>>13113941
error: pedophilia is not a plank of the church. the very opposite in fact, the goal is holy marriage or holy orders. this is how saints are made.

pedophilia is a failure of man, sin, literally a missing of the mark. a crime against the littlest of us, whom Jesus said he guards most fiercely.

>>13113968
>Jesus said he guards most fiercely.
if mother mary can catch priests who tumble down hills, how come jesus can't cock-block horny priests?

>>13113975
Jesus had his own fuck boy, why would he cock block his priests?

>>13113975
Believe me when i say those priests are not with Christ. They simply are not.

>>13113978
citation needed, heretic

>>13113982
Yeah but why can't he intervene and stop the sodomy from occuring? You here of priests rolling down hills and mary catching them so they don't die, why doesn't jesus prevent pedophiles from fucking kids?
Is he just doing le mysterious ways?

>>13113988
See >>13113640

>>13113990
>Is he just doing le mysterious ways?
you mean Providence.

I wouldn't bullshit you and say yeah I know the mind of God. But I DO trust that all causes result in an ultimate good. And sometimes that must necessarily entail the innocent bearing terrible suffering. Objectionable as it is to us, we don't know God's view of it and it is foolish to guess.

>>13112938
>>13112996
>>13113029
>>13113067
>>13113445
>>13113447
These are all incorrect. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is generally considered impossible in our time (though of course theoretically possible). It refers specifically to the kind of sin the Pharisees comitted when, before their very eyes, fully knowledgeable about their faith, they witnessed Jesus heal the blind, were given a relatively explicit explanation, and yet attributed the miracle--an action of the holy spirit--to the devil himself. This is Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit--to see and know the workings of the Holy Spirit directly, to experience it, and to tell others that it is actually a force of evil. It is beyond denying God consciously. It is to deny God before other men, not only with a full knowledge of God and his power, but also to do so in his presence. This is beyond mortal sin. A mortal sin is a sin of such gravity that it severs your connection with God; however, with faith and contrition and penance, the connection can be reestablished. Jesus will forgive everything we offer to him, except Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. To Blaspheme against the Holy Spirit is to intentionally and in full knowledge create such a gulf between yourself and the Lord, that you can never recover the distance. It is such an insult to God that there can be no mercy of it. For the few of you I've replied to who seem to desire this distance, why do you wish pain on yourself? God is the creator of all things. Every true joy in your life has come from him. Why do you wish to separate yourself from all love?

>>13114022
The Pharisees were God's chosen. That's why their descendants rule the world today.

>>13113528
The Church itself is incorruptible. The men who occupy the church may be corrupted. To abandon the Church is to abandon truth. A true Catholic would never abandon this holy organization, but would instead fight to rejuvenate it.

>>13114033
This.

>>13114032
False. The Israelites, the descendants of Israel were chosen by God to bring Truth to the world, so long as they kept the covenant. Time and again, they broke the covenant, and after a punishment, God restored them. Then Jesus came, their prophesies had been fulfilled. A new, complete covenant was offered. The leaders of Judea rejected the covenant, but many if not most of the first Christians were jews. Today, the Jewish people are hardly different than other non-believers; their main obstacle to faith is that they still possess the remnants of the natural law revealed to them, so they are perhaps more stubborn than before. With this knowledge, they have found success where many other peoples have not, but they do not rule the world.

>>13114033
>The Church itself is incorruptible
Imagine being this naive.

>>13114060
There were many prophecies Jesus didn't fulfill.

>>13114061
The Church is staffed by sinners, anon. But it is still the Bride of Christ. If we would be perfect as our father in heaven is perfect, we would have the Church we deserve. But power corrupts and old men are nasty af. They need to be rebuked from the top, but for whatever reason Francis isn't doing it.

>>13114071
Christ ain't real, bruh.

>>13114061
As you should already know, there are two churches--the spiritual church, and the visible church. The spiritual church is not only incorruptible, but unassailable. It is this church which resides eternally with God in heaven. The visible church is incorruptible, but as an earthly institution, it can suffer and be weakened. However, the faith itself, the doctrine it protects cannot be corrupted. Many have tried, but it always fails. This is why most attacks against the church are not theological, but attacks against habits, against liturgy, against devotion, against the perception of the church, and so on. There are many now who are corrupt and occupy positions of temporal power in the clerical hierarchy, but for all their influence, they never explicitly attack the dogma. They say things with contradict dogma, they even say heresies at times, but it is never with authority or assertion of truth. They know they cannot assail the truth itself, and so instead create smoke and confusion. The Truth is incorruptible, and the Church, as the possessor of the Truth and built on the Truth is incorruptible. It is only its outer vestiges which may appear sullied.

>>13114068
Such as? And what sources are you using to establish these prophecies?

>>13114106
Can't corrupt what doesn't exist.

>>13114076
If Christ was not real, why then did the Pharisees of that time argue against the Christians on these grounds? They made many attacks, but never did they say that Jesus did not exist. Everyone at that time who looked deeply into the stories was converted. Now you say it is unreliable, because they converted. But if it was true, how could you expect anything else? To see the Truth is to believe in the Truth. You take as signs things which demonstrate the opposite of your claims.

>>13114110
The Messiah is a person who will live up to a series of prophetic expectations and partake of an era marked by particular characteristics. In absence of such being the case, Jesus cannot possibly be the Messiah.

>The whole world will worship the One God of Israel. Isaiah 2:11-17, Isaiah 40:5, Zephaniah 3:9

Currently large swaths humanity do not worship the One God of Israel.

>Knowledge of God will fill the world. Isaiah 11:9, 45:23, 66:23, Jeremiah 31:33, Zechariah 3:9, 8:23, 14:9,16, Ezekiel 38:23, Psalm 86:9

Note that this is knowledge of God - not simply unsubstantiated faith in God. Even amongst the faithful, such knowledge is rare.

>All Israelites will be returned to their homeland Isaiah 11:12, 27:12-13, Ezekiel 11:17, 36:24, Deuteronomy 30:3

Though there are more Jews today living in the Land of Israel than there have been since the exile began nearly 2,000 years ago - there is still a large diaspora consisting of millions of Jews.

>The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness. Isaiah 51:11

The Jewish people have been historically subject to a great degree of persecution (the Holocaust, the Inquisition, pogroms, etc.) and while generally our condition has improved, we are still a perpetual target.

>Nations will recognize the wrongs they did to Israel. Isaiah 52:13-53:5

While modern Germany as a nation-state does much to repent of its history (i.e. the Holocaust), various states and human institutions with much blood and guilt on their hands, to this day either remain silent, white-wash/cover up history, or in some perverse instances even exult in it.

>The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance. Zechariah 8:23

While there is today an emerging interest in observance of the Noahide laws (the Torah's universal laws of man), there still has not been an en masse turn towards learned Torah observant Jews for guidance in spiritual matters.

>Weapons of war will be destroyed. Ezekiel 39:9

One need only momentarily consider the trillions spent on arms by nations such as the U.S., China and Russia as well as the existence of an immense military industrial complex to realize that this is not the condition we find ourselves in today.

>>13114113
The Church most certainly exists. It has certainly existed in a relatively formal, institutional sense for over 1600 years. The earliest actions of Christians are recorded and demonstrated. Do you really believe that all this sprouted out of nothing?

>>13114139
>A person’s genealogical/tribal membership are transmitted exclusively through one’s physical father. Numbers 1:18, Jeremiah 33:17

Jesus whose alleged sketchy genealogy is maternal cannot possibly be a verifiable descendent of the tribe of Judah.

>The Temple will be rebuilt. Micah 4:1, Ezekiel 40-42, Isaiah 2:2-3, Malachi 3:4, Zechariah 14:20-21,

The Third Temple is not a metaphor, it is not symbolic of a man. There will be an actual physical building where all of the ritualistic components that the Torah commands be implemented, will be administered by Leviim (Levites) and Kohanim (Priests).

>World Peace: Isaiah 2:4, 11:6, 60:18 Micah 4:1-4, Hosea 2:20

The list of ongoing military conflicts is too long to list here. One can hardly pick up a newspaper or hear a news report without being informed of the latest battle, bombing, strike, etc.

>Christianity claims that Jesus "Fulfilled the law," i.e. the law is abrogated and need not any longer be observed.

Deut. 13:2-7 concerns the "false prophet" - if one arises who attempts to draw the Jewish people away from Torah observance then he is to be identified as such. The Torah's commandments are an eternally binding covenant with the Jews, God is not a whimsical being subject to a willy nilly changing of the rules - "God is not a man, that He should lie; neither the son of man, that He should repent" (Num. 23:19)

>All Jews will embrace Torah observance. Ezekiel 37:24, Deuteronomy 30:8-10, Jeremiah 31:32, Ezekiel 11:19-20, 36:26-27.

It is fairly obvious that as the situation stands today, lamentably only a very small percentage of Jews live in observance of the Torah. Secularism has widely been embraced by Jews and some even go so far as deeming such virtuous.

>Jesus cannot be a part of God, not him, anybody or anything. Deut 6:4.

The idea of the Messiah actually partaking of divinity is anathema to Torah Judaism. God is ONE. His oneness is inviolable and is not that of a compound unity (like twelve eggs make one dozen, or three divinities make one god).

>>13114129
Jesus existed historically as a religious reformer of Judaism, but the deity known as Christ isn't real.

>>13113930
I get that you're a faggot.
Stop jacking off and abstain.

>>13114143
Not the magical fairyland church.

>>13114163
I have a very strong libido though. Will you take care of my sexual needs for me?

>>13114139
You have provided your interpretation of prophecy, but not explained the prophesies themselves. For example, Isiah 52:13-53:5 says nothing of what you've described. It says the after being held in contempt by the world, the Messiah will be exalted by all for his taking on of all sins. I get the sense that you have copied this list form somewhere and have not sought wisdom to examine yourself.

>>13114190
The Suffering Servant isn't the Messiah, it's Israel. This is a classic mistake Christians make because the figure of Christ is a literary amalgam of Torah archetypes and not an actual being.

>>13114157
And yet Judaism did not reform, and instead Christianity was born. Your only information to say Jesus existed also demonstrates him to be God. If you deny this, then you implicitly claim that Jesus himself was no redeemer, but a corrupter. If Christianity itself is a deceit, than Jesus can only be recognized as the most treacherous man to ever live. The conclusion you have arrived at is incompatible with what is agreed upon by all.

>>13114207
Christianity is a renegade sect of Judaism. And you're correct in saying that Christianity is a deceit, but not that the opposite is agreed upon by all since, you know, not everyone converted to the religion.

>>13114204
You should re-read the text. It clearly differentiates between "my people" and the Exalted One. For one, Isiah says "our grief he Himself bore," and "our sorrows he carried." Do you think this "our" speaks of non-Israelites only? That is absurd. What's more, the Jews of Jesus' time did not take these scriptures as you are trying to now. The whole period was taken up by a spirit of expectation. Many signs were pointing to the Messiah, and the people anticipated his arrival. Even the Pharisees questioned Jesus with the intent of determining whether he was the Messiah. But, just as this message from Isiah foretold, he did not offer what was expected. He was rejected. He did not come with temporal power to give Israel temporal dominion over Rome. He did not come with temporal riches and bore no sign of earthly majesty. Those at the time of Christ, saw nothing literary in the prophesies, or in Jesus.

>>13114225
Then you cannot call Jesus a reformer, and you must admit that the Pharisees were right to execute him. You must reject everything he said, for it was all a deception. You must also then reject all beliefs which have grown out of his teachings, no matter how different they seem. But why do you think the story is over? Why do you think it has all ended? Why do you think nothing can change?

>>13114237
It's speaking of the nation as a whole, the suffering servant represents their trials and tribulations. The prophecies about the Messiah are a completely different thing, but the gospel writers mixed the two like they referred to same entity.

>>13114245
But he was a reformer. A failed one.

>>13114262
Why do you take these things so figuratively, when those who heard it, and practiced it, and believed in it took it differently? You say Jesus was simply a reformer, but cannot seem to make obvious connections. Jesus, at first, spoke only to Israelites. He spoke only to people who were familiar with Isiah, with Elijah, with Deuteronomy. The gospels originated with Jews. Why do you assume you know their faith better than they themselves have expressed? To hold your position, they either deceived or were deceived. And what did they gain? How many hundreds of years did people believe these things, having only heard them from the mouths of other believers (among a sea of other beliefs, all of them more profitable), before any temporal power was granted them? And what did it do to Israel? Those who did not believe in Christ pushed back against Rome, as they had been desiring to do, and were crushed. Further, what reform of Judaism was needed? What reform do you think Jesus was trying to make? If it was simply a reform he was after, how did he fail so greatly, in your view? Your various positions are incoherent.

>>13114291
I'm not the one who presumes to know their faith better than themselves, those are the Christians, gentiles who converted after the promise of eternal life and who knew nothing about Judaism. The gospels themselves were written by Hellenized diaspora Jews who had no knowledge of Hebrew and only the Greek translation of the Torah (the Septuagint) available to base their stories on. From this lack of knowledge were born Frankenstein concepts such as this "suffering" "messiah" and his virgin birth, which is entirely based on a mistranslation. As for the need of a reformation, there wasn't any of course, but Yeshua and his followers thought differently so a new religion was created out of their attempts at reforming Judaism.

>>13112965
This is what peak pride looks like.

>>13114322
Yes, the books were written later, but the words did not appear out of thin air. How did the gentiles hear? By the words of those who were with Jesus. How did the later Jews know what to write? By the stories, carefully passed on, person by person. Why can we trust them? Because many people, in many different places had heard the same story, with the same words. And consider, it was not like today, where you and I are communicating easily and semi-permanently across a great space, and with excessive ease. Information was slow and difficult to share. What was not written down, which was most things, had to be remembered. This was common life. Given that these first evangels lived in great poverty, and so did almost all Christians for hundreds of years, this devotion was no small thing. It required an effort difficult for us to imagine today, for whom information is so accessible. These are not my presumptions, but simple and obvious observations. What is your evidence for anything you say?

>>13114004
It's one of many reasons I couldn't be a Christian (or at least not one yet). I can begin to entertain a God may have created the universe as a prime mover etc, but going much further than that I can't quite accept.

>>13114022
>For the few of you I've replied to who seem to desire this distance, why do you wish pain on yourself? God is the creator of all things. Every true joy in your life has come from him. Why do you wish to separate yourself from all love?
some sort of teenage "fuck you dad" if I'm being honest with myself
if he's gonna send me to hell then fuck him

>>13114394
I sincerely encourage you to read The Confessions of Saint Augustine. Although I have called myself Catholic most of my life, it is only in reading his words that I have found compelling answers to many of my doubts. In this simple and beautiful book, he expresses certain profound truths with an efficiency and ease that is delightful and surprisng, especially given how many others have thrown themselves effortfully and failingly at the same questions--questions of the mind, questions of memory, questions of being, questions of time. I cannot promise you it will convince you, and I cannot promise you will be satisfied. But there are few books I could recommend more highly for those who sincerely seek the Truth.

>>13112913
I went to confession not long ago, and I was absolved of my sins -- including the mortal sins.

>>13114414
It's something I'll read eventually. But I don't think even reading Aquinas' oeuvre would fully convince me. I'll always hold the knowledge that while what I read may convince me at the time, convincing refutations may be out there.

>>13114367
Except all of that information comes from the gospels, we don't know whether they conveyed what was preached or not, or even if most of it wasn't simply were made up by the authors as they added their own ideas to the core beliefs, the latter being far more likely than the former, according to textual criticism. And you're completely wrong about people in many different places hearing the same story with the same words. So wrong it's baffling, considering even most Christians understand that wasn't the case, reason why we ended up with four different gospel accounts and not one.

Here's a biblical scholar's explanation for why the gospels aren't reliable sources of information if you're interested anyway:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-cZncVmtIU

>>13114426
are you truly repent?

>>13114174
Your libido will literally suffocate you.
>Will you take care of my sexual needs for me?
You're already transforming into a faggot.

>>13112938
Does anyone have an idea of what blasphemy against the holy ghost looks like in practice? it can't be simple atheism because otherwise how does someone become saved, right?

>>13114402
For your sake, I hope you can understand--that is not how it "works." While in one sense, yes, hell can be understood as punishment, it cannot be seen in the same why you biological father punishes you. God is the creator of all things, visible and invisible. This means he is the creator of gravity, and the creator of love. Just as there are natural laws, there are supernatural laws--laws which govern the very being of reality. Sin in this sense is more than temporal disobedience. God's will is the source of all being. To go against his will is to move yourself towards death. It is not a matter of cause and effect. God does not react to your sin, but the negative effects of sin are an immediate attribute of the sin. If you were to cut yourself, you would not be alarmed that it hurt. When you touch a hot stove, you are not surprised when it burns. The pain you feel in these actions is not merely a consequence, but an immediate state of being you have brought yourself into. Sin is like this. When you sin, you are doing to your soul what it would be like to hold your hand on a burning coil. God has reached out through time and spice to warn you of this, to rescue you from this, but like an infant who does not understand, you find yourself unable to let go.

>>13114469
For someone so invested on portraying people as faggots you seem oddly interested in other men's sexual habits, anon.

>>13114436
Even so, I recommend it. It does not have to convince you, and it is foolish to expect most anyone to have a sudden conversion, a sudden experience of confident faith. But even if you do not believe fully, simply by grappling with his arguments will be have a better sense of discerning what is true and false in other arguments. Whether or not it will arm you with faith, it will at least arm you with strong sense of reason and rhetoric.

>>13114439
Based Ehrman

>>13114439
>the four different gospels are because the stories conflicted
The gospels are different accounts coming from different apostles, and expressing different attributes of the same story. But you are missing what I was saying, which is that we identified the gospels based on many people having heard each gospel as an individual gospel. There was no one who heard the gospel of Luke, but heard it accredited to Matthew. These gospels were not produced out of nothing. There was not a singular text, or a singular chain of telling. Their passing through time was dispersed and varied. The same arguments which would cause us to doubt the Gospels are valid of any and all information of any and every kind. No text has the reliability demanded by doubters. Every text is susceptible to the deceit and mistakes proposed. In fact, newer works are more susceptible than older works. Case in point--you question the bias and motivations, intentional or not, of the early writers, but in your defense you use the writings and ideas of a non-believer, a non-believer who began his life in a false faith, believing what has been falsely taught. His starting place for disagreement comes from a great misunderstanding of what the church teaches and has taught. You also seem ignorant of what the church teaches.

>>13114478
Ok that's all cool, except most religious laws are culturally and historically specific norms thought to be universal for no particular reason but lack of introspection/delusion. The (specific/detailed) laws of the old testament included. What is phantastic about Jesus is that he emphasised the 'point' of the law rather than its letter, which neither the catholic nor the orthodox churches could follow.

>>13114482
>jacking is good
>UR A FAGGET
Whatever you say, fagget.

>>13114574
That is a rather radical position to take without actually exploring the centuries of theological argument which are actually the basis for their opinions. Your perspective explains to an extent tribal, organic, de-centralized, undogmatic religions, but it absurdly out of place when describing organized religion.

>>13112913
Theology is a pseudoscience rooted in unjustified belief. The entire field is peak brainletism.

is there anything more retarded than christians and they retarded idea that people should not be judged andshould be loved?

>>13114541
There's no evidence that the gospels go back to the apostles, not partially and much less wholly. If anything there's evidence against it.
>The same arguments which would cause us to doubt the Gospels are valid of any and all information of any and every kind
Not really. Did you even watch the video? I can only conclude you don't understand how history and biblical scholarship work when you say something like that. And worst of all, you think you know better than biblical scholars, which is pretty pathetic. The fact that a scholar is a non-believer isn't an argument against his credibility, not to mention he isn't saying anything that goes against mainstream scholarship.

>>13114583
>in desperate damage control

>>13114596
You mean centralized and dogmatic, right? It makes no sense to say 'decentralized undogmatic religions enforce one cultural norm onto other cultures as divinely revealed law'.

And of course it makes sense to say that of organised religion. Why has it been and still is it so difficult for the catholic church to simply say, contraception is okay, actually? Why can't religions, despite enough source material, say God's mercy cannot be limited by the human mind? Because organised religion is the piling up of debris (i.e. crystallised cultural conventions) from hundreds of years weighing upon our conscience. That the church thinks in centuries is a shortcoming of organised religion, not a perk.

>>13114617
It is as much an argument against his credibility as someone's belief is an argument against their credibility, which is what your arguments rest on. Your argument is that the early Christians are not credible. You say, for example, there's no evidence that the gospels go back to the apostles--except the word of those who believed they did, and who out of that belief shared it.

>>13113028
>half a Hail Mary
lmao

>>13114647
Well how about this, he used to be an evangelical and now isn't, but I wouldn't say he is not a christian because who they hell am I (or you) to say that of people

>>13114617
>There's no evidence that the gospels go back to the apostles
>there's evidence against it
Yeah. No. You could argue shaky evidence, but the gospels CAN be factually believed to have been written as early as 50AD, definitely a time when the apostles and many witnesses to Christ's resurrection were still alive.
If you honestly think that Bart Ehrman is as credible as you think, you should check his debates with William Lane Craig. Ehrman is contradicts himself on occasion and in no way is he not biased.
Check out William Mitchell Ramsay on how much the New Testament can be relied upon.

>>13114439
(((textual criticism)))

>>13114659
Ehrman studied in a Christian school and decided he didn't have faith. Must have had some poor teachers since he dedicated his whole life to spew bile against it and act like a man of reasoning.

>>13114647
No, my argument is that the GOSPELS aren't credible. We have no firsthand accounts of anything in Christianity, not even contemporary accounts. If we had it would be a different situation.

>>13114661
Yes, a time when people when know nothing about and left no written records were supposedly alive. Not evidence, sorry.

>written as early as 50AD
Hahaha, no fucking way they were written before AD 70, the earliest gospel (Mark) directly addresses the destruction of the temple. You people are so delusional.

>you should check his debates with a professional bullshitter
Wow Craig drone, how's it going?

>>13114646
Contraception is not okay. And it's not some "old-fashioned" position. It develops clearly from dogma. The positions you're arguing for are pre-christian. They are the practices of natural law. But you also deny certain realities of natural law. The Church is not the building up of debris, but a deliberate action against those new developments which are clearly harmful. Why do you ignore the very clearly written and well recorded development of these ideas? Yes, you attach your criticism to the church, but your actual descriptions can only be applied to religions like Hinduism, which lack any centralized dogma or organization. It is only a centralized organization which can ensure that mere customs do not get confused for the truth itself.

>>13112952
You kinds of people are like rats to me. I rarely ever encounter them, but when I do you're the most insufferable pests I know.

>>13114659
He denies Jesus Christ is the messiah. It's true, that it is hard to tell often if someone who professes faith has a true and righteous faith, but it cannot be more clear when someone denies Christ in their words and deeds. Also, the evangelical faith is a broken faith, which teaches the truth poorly, and causes more damage by its misteaching than the good it causes by spreading the name of Jesus. Eherman is a perfect example. He grew up believing in scriptural literalism which the Catholic and Orthodox churches have never taught. As he learned that scripture could not be taken in the way he had been taught, he abandoned the faith altogether.

>>13112913
>mortal sin by definition cannot be forgiven
What is confession

>>13114708
Or maybe he abandoned the faith because he realized it's all nonsense. He could easily have become a brainless Catholic to preserve hids faith if literalism was the problem, but he was smarter (and more honest) than that apparently

>>13113028
>>13113008
>>13112997
>>13112948

holy sex negativity batman!!!!!

why do /lit/ and /sci/ hate masturbation so terribly?

I've never witnessed other places on the internet that decry fapping so damnedly. /r/NoFap included. this place makes nofap look moderate. yeesh.

People on this place especially, i saw them quote Kant's writing that masturbation is worse than suicide AND THEY ARE AGREEING WITH HIM.
what. the. literal. fuck.

>>13114743
>why do /lit/ and /sci/ hate masturbation so terribly?
Erectile dysfunction obviously.

>>13114733
Or so you assume. But certainly it is not your conviction against God that causes you to see honesty only among deniers.

>>13114790
My conviction comes from the absolute lack of evidence that the supernatural events narrated in the bible actually took place. The existence or nonexistence of a creator is not even an issue as the bible clearly isn't a good source of information on that matter either.

>>13114686
>we
You do not have first hand accounts of almost anything in your life. Even the things which you believe to be first hand accounts, you rely on the second-hand accounts of other people that they are legitimate. To say the Gospels are not credible, you must say that the early Christians, the people closest to the events, are not credible. I do not see why you are trying to make a distinction except to calm the confusion of your self-contradiction. If the Gospels aren't credible, somebody involved in their transmission lied, or many. Once you recognize this, hopefully you will begin to see how absurd the proposition is. While it is certainly within human nature to lie, it is not the nature of a lie to survive as Christianity has survived. This is also not to say that lies do not survive, but nowhere else have they taken on the character you say they have with Christianity. Where there is truth, there is unity, and where there is deceit, dissension.

>>13114805
You have an unreliable definition of evidence. You believe what you believe to suit your own preferences.

>>13114743
Masturbation is a desecration of life. You would not spit on a great painting. And yet you so willingly do worse to an even greater creation--human life. No artist can make anything that rivals what each man and woman can together make. How can you respect anything man makes, and yet not respect life? I do not if I can say it is worse than suicide, but it is an extreme profanity and perversion.

seems like christianity requires way too many leaps of faith
guess i'll stay a sinner

>>13114831
Is life another one of your Gods, polytheist?

>>13114847
Life is a gift from God. To desecrate his gifts is to profane him.

>>13114858
Guess you've got to be in the club for that argument to be weighty.

>>13114813
>You do not have first hand accounts of almost anything in your life
Oh, anon...

Yes, I trust historians within reason when it comes to history, just like I trust a plumber to fix a leak car, even though I don't have the knowledge he has. This whole thing you religious people do of trying to put basic levels of confidence in mundane things with mind-boggling magical shit is just depressing to watch.

>While it is certainly within human nature to lie, it is not the nature of a lie to survive as Christianity has survived
Do you have any idea of the number of bullshit religions that thrived in history? Some recently as well, such as cargo cults? This is such a bad argument that I wonder if you really tell that to yourself in order to believe. I hope not because I'm sorry to tell you but not even evangelicals think like that.

>>13114819
I'm using the standard definition of evidence here, just like Bart Ehrman. You can tell me I believe what I believe to suit my preferences all you want, but at the end of the day it's you who need to suspend your critical thinking to believe in the bullshit you want to believe in.

>>13114877
>just like I trust a plumber to fix a leak car
*or a mechanic a

Christcuck fatigue is eerily similar to negro fatigue.

>>13114686
>Hahaha, no fucking way they were written before AD 70
Says who?
>earliest gospel (Mark)
You can argue Mark and Mathew were written at the same time, Mathew may be even earlier, with Luke and Acts being written soon after. The only one that's more likely to have bee written at or over 70AD is John and even then it's debatable in modern dating studies.
>(Mark) directly addresses the destruction of the temple
It addresses the prophecy of it.
>Craig - a professional bullshitter
He must be some bullshiter who goes out of his way to debate renowned skeptics and win against them. Ocassionaly beating them at their own fields of study like did with Lawrence Krauss.
>You people are so delusional.
>Wow Craig drone
Ha!

>>13114867
No, you just don't hear what we mean when we say God. You interperet it to mean something silly, and which as always been recognized as absurd. But God is "I Am that I Am"--that which is of its own accord, and which all things follower after. The origin of all being by his will gives us life and being, and has even gone so far as to give us our own will so that we can share in his creation. When you create life, you have created, with the Grace of God, something far beyond any human understanding. Life is a miracle. That we have any part in the process is to be received in joy and thanksgiving. To divert any of these processes away from God's will and towards a false sense of self is a terrible tragedy of the soul. God's will is the essence of being; to deviate form his will is to move yourself towards non-being--towards death. Why do you think the physical pleasure of sex is greater than the infinite pleasure of God's love?

>>13114893
>Says who?
Not a single mainstream scholar puts Mark that far back with the fucking epistles. Even religious scholars struggle to put it before the beginning of the first Jewish-Roman war because they know it makes no sense and aren't as delusional as you are.
>You can argue Mark and Mathew were written at the same time
You really can't, retard. Matthew LITERALLY corrects Mark's grammar while copying the shit out of it.
>The only one that's more likely to have bee written at or over 70AD is John and even then it's debatable in modern dating studies.
Holy shit, what a fucking idiot.
>It addresses the prophecy of it.
For the naive retards like you, maybe.

>>13114831
Not to mention it surrenders your will over to a passion that uses your faculty of reason to justify its continuance rather than the other way around, reducing you to a mere passenger in this ride of life, rather than a driver. Gratifying and reinforcing sexual passions makes slaves of men. It should be noted, that unlike virtually all other people in this thread, I'm an atheist, and the implications of there not being a God make this all the worse. Waste life following the pleasure of a blind instinct? Surrender your agency to something that really does nothing. I consider it to be worse hard drug use, as the decision to take them is deliberate, willful, and not primal although the pleasure gained from them is rooted in similar systems. There is no deliberation in sexual matters. Just a cosmic game of pinball only to be set-off and thrown off course by the next arousing distraction.

>>13114877
>Oh sweetie
If you have no faith, that's your problem. Stop trying to convince people that your bullshit historians that DO THE EXACT SAME THING that you claim theologians do to push a narrative.
>mind-boggling magical shit
If some of that mind-boggling magical shit happened to you straight in front of your eyes, you'd probably still wouldn't believe. And that's fine.
Christ tests your endurance for being a pure human being, not how much of a marvel fanboy you are.
>Bart Ehrman
>standard definition of evidence here
Standard definition of misquoting the Gospels and then blaming it on them that they were wrong. The guy is a hack historian and he's just holding on to his own narrative because he built his entire career on it
>to believe in the bullshit you want to believe in
You're still talking about yourself here. It's not the mind-boggling magical shit we care about, but the core message.
You ask any Christian theologian worth a damn if they believe that Genesis is actual history and they'll laugh and say no. Even the Church fathers wrote about this way back in the day.

>>13114947
>Waste life following the pleasure of a blind instinct?
Feels better than waste it trying to convince people on an anonymous board that they're living life wrong, I can assure you of that.

>>13114930
>Not a single mainstream scholar puts Mark that far back with the fucking epistles
You need to update your dating study archives then.
>You really can't, retard
>Holy shit, what a fucking idiot.
>naive retards like you
Keep seething.
Matthew and Mark were written about the same time. Grammatical corrections or no, they're still different accounts meant for different audiences that, lo an behold, could have been written by people who literally knew each other and quoted the same sources. But nah, fuck that. It's all just a conspiracy. Has to be.

>mfw this entire fucking thread
Never thought I'd end up stirner posting in the year of 2019, but shit, how spooked can some of you be

>>13114952
>historians that DO THE EXACT SAME THING that you claim theologians do
I don't see any serious historian trying to convince me that magic is real.
>If some of that mind-boggling magical shit happened to you straight in front of your eyes, you'd probably still wouldn't believe. And that's fine.
Glad to hear that. Believing otherworldly things without the ability to test them seems like a sure way to fool yourself.
>Christ tests your endurance for being a pure human being, not how much of a marvel fanboy you are.
Not really a fan of capeshit.
>You ask any Christian theologian worth a damn if they believe that Genesis is actual history and they'll laugh and say no
But I know they don't, that's not what we're discussing. They do, however, believe in many other equally ridiculous things in the bible, as I'm sure you're aware of being a credulous retard yourself.

>>13114966
>gets BTFO on basic shit
>k-keep seething
Lmao kill yourself retard

>>13114959
Believe me, I can't discuss it in real life or anywhere without people wanting to tar and feather me. I don't care if nobody reads my insights when I pop by, I just want to get these thoughts off my chest and into reality however insignificant the place or impact.

We have to bring crucifixions back.

>>13114986
Are you happy?

>>13115142
Yeah fairly. A little stressed as it's the exam period, but I'm on top of my preparation and I look forward to relaxation and revelry after my last exam is finished.

>>13115169
Nice to hear. Have a good day.

>>13115222
:)

>>13114605
You can say that about all of philosophy, which makes you the brainletest.

>>13115234
>You can say that about all of philosophy
Correct.
>which makes you the brainletest.
Actually it makes him the wokest

>>13114831
>No artist can make anything that rivals what each man and woman can together make.

This is not only contrary to "common sense", to Logic, but to Christianity itself. That reproduction is not ex homo, but ex Deo, is a Christian tenet. Total delirium, my God.

>>13112913

Paul, Augustine, Aquinas, et al. are not incidentally partially contrary to Jesus, they are deliberately totally contrary to Jesus.

>>13112997
>>13113008

Man, or Aquinas, judging degrees of sin is ascriptural abomination, as is the idea of "mortal sin". As per Scripture, blaspheming against the Holy Spirit is only unforgivable transgression, and generally gravity of sin is only inversely proportional to realization and repentance therefrom.

>>13112997
>>13113008

Man, or Aquinas, judging degrees of sin is ascriptural abomination, as is the idea of "mortal sin". As per Scripture, blaspheming against the Holy Spirit is the only unforgivable transgression, and generally speaking gravity of sin is only inversely proportional to realization and repentance therefrom.

>>13114478
>God has reached out through time and spice to warn you of this, to rescue you from this, but like an infant who does not understand, you find yourself unable to let go.
But if God is almighty and all knowing, then why does he not reach out in a way that is sure to set us on the right path? Why reach out in a way of which he knows it will be unsuccessful?

>>13115612
MYSTERIOUS WAYS

>>13115612
if He appeared on the sky for everyone right now people wouldn't seek Him out of free will.

>>13115612
Free will. Reminder God was right to flood the earth and humanity was literally a mistake, a failed experiment. Now God just copes with some sort of suck cost fallacy where he doesn't really expect or hope for anything about of people, he just offers love irrationally and unconditionally, he offers infinite ability to forgive despite humanities limited ability to ask for forgiveness.

>>13115638
what a jerk

Catholicism was a mistake.

Dionysus/Bacchus is the only god that matters

>>13114712
Something Catholics made up to justify their shit reading of 1 John.

>>13114439
>The authors of the gospels just made up a bunch of stuff that they knew would cause them to be persecuted and executed, and never recanted even at the point of death
Yeah, that sounds entirely reasonable, anon.

The Gospel is undeniably true, and I genuinely hope that one day you are able to see that.

>>13112996
cringe af

>tfw going to burn in hell because I didn't make some retarded leap of faith
wtf dude

>>13112913
I will never listen to a man with such a shit haircut

>>13115797
>they knew would cause them to be persecuted and executed
There's zero reason to believe they ever thought they would be persecuted and executed for writing their fanfic of Judaism, I doubt anyone even knew who those people were in the first place since they didn't exactly sign their works. And even if they thought there was a chance of being killed, the prospect of death never stopped religious fanatics. Now add that to the exaggerated claims of persecution by the church (which the church itself acknowledges today) and your "argument" holds no water.
>The Gospel is undeniably true, and I genuinely hope that one day you are able to see that.
The gospels are extremely contrived and blatantly fictional, you dumb shit. You need to either have been indoctrinated as a child or be gullible as fuck to believe in that shit. I'd tell you I hope you stop being retarded but it's not like you have any choice.

>>13115797
Yeah, only Christians are strong enough to hold onto their beliefs in the face of death

>>13116153
What the fuck I'm Buddhist now.

>>13115486
You do not understand what I am saying, nor what Ex Deo means, nor the essence of the will. All creation is ex Deo. The essence of life is ex Deo. But as much as Man has free will, he is partial author of his actions. In evil, he has sole authorship, and in good he becomes only a willing vehicle to God's will. If you would say that this gives man no credit for the creation of another human, than neither can he be credited with the creation of any art, except where he deviates from God's will. This conclusion is absurd. That a man can be given credit for a good thing does not deny that the ultimate and purest sense of authorship is due to God himself. The man's credit is simply his obedience, which, as free and sinful beings, is not nothing.

>>13115612
Because the greater gift is to let you choose. To choose righteousness freely is worth the chance of choosing wrongly.

>>13116171
Man has no free will.

>>13116171
>implying free will is a thing

>>13116188
>>13116204
This is like facing Xeno's paradox and concluding that motion is impossible. If everything is a predetermined consequence of existence, how does anything exist to begin with?

>>13116171
>In evil, he has sole authorship
>the ultimate and purest sense of authorship is due to God himself
Looks like an excuse you would make to exempt god from being responsible for evil.

>>13116239
Guess things were just floating around chaotically forever

>>13116171

Again, I cannot help but remark that the Theological transgressions of Catholicism are as perverse and labyrinthine as the Logical transgressions are crude and common.

>>13116368
Are you the one that thinks Jesus not calling Mary "mother" is proof she isn't his mother?

>>13116423

Yes.

>>13116435
You're a loser

>>13113172
"At that very time there were some present who told him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. He asked them, “Do you think that because these Galileans suffered in this way they were worse sinners than all other Galileans? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all perish as they did. Or those eighteen who were killed when the tower of Siloam fell on them—do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others living in Jerusalem? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all perish just as they did." (Luke 13:1-5)

You are playing a dangerous game my friend

>>13113172
You're supposed to try and rid yourself of sin and do better every time you repent. Otherwise you're an unrepentant sinner. There is nothing worse than an unrepentant sinner, anon!

>>13115494
How can you actually believe this?

>>13116139
cringe and hellbound

not nice knowin' ya. there is time to repent. get on it.

>Be Catholic
>Be chronic masturbator
>See this thread

My diary desu has a good part though where the narrator is on a European tour and the group stays at a hotel/church owned by the Vatican and a girl blushes at him so he runs to his room and wanks off and expresses anxiety that he hasn't confessed for it yet.

>>13117356
And here I thought he was just being dramatic when he said, "the soul is the prison of the body"

>>13117356
Cheer up, your well on your way to becoming the next Joyce.