/lit/ - Literature

>be incredibly insightful marxist
>ruin it by constantly being blinkered jewish exceptionalist who just presumes jews should run everybody's countries through dominating their intelligentsia

A tale as old as time

>>13111206
so much of the frankfurt school spent their time whining about muh holocaust

>>13111214
>surprised when marxism takes a turn for the jewish
Who could have predicted this?

>>13111206
there has been no good poetry after auschwitz desu

FRANKFURT SCHOOL DESTROYED BY FACTS AND LOGIC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_Ngy2aU_QY

>>13111234
>who is wallace stevens
>who is john ashbery

>>13111206
you don't come off as someone who likes poetry much

>>13111234
robert graves wrote some poetry after '45

So modernity killed poetry?

>>13111282
I know I'm sorry I didn't look

>>13111282
this is a marxist deleuzian whiteheadian adornoist pessoan board

>>13111242
good question. literally who

>>13111206
>>13111255

On the exact contrary. Auschwitz made it possible to write poetry, which gives me a calming feeling, both for the pleasure of the event itself, and as a new dramatic token/mytheme.

Another example: the First World War precipitated a large effusion of poetry from its participants. Not only Robert Graves, but many others turned to verse to express their subjectivity, which could not be explained by a rational discourse. See Ellis, Eye Deep in Hell for multiple examples of this, interspersed with the minutiae of trench warfare (Do not move the goalposts/misunderstand by whining that "those war poems aren't Capital-P Poetry, which is what Adorno was really after" or similar.)

No, Adorno's right. Auschwitz was the death rattle of war. There has been no righteous war after World War II. It destroyed nationalism and destroyed empire, it destroyed all that men fight for. It destroyed righteous suffering. And what is poetry but the ultimate expression of righteous suffering?

All that poetry has left to it is pathetic, individuated suffering. Auschwitz created the the individual. No one is the citizen, everyone is a potential refugee. Auschwitz destroyed the right of art to righteousness.

>>13111314
those wwi poets were poets before the war, you know. the major impact the war had on poetry was it brought about the death of 2 of the 4 good war poets (3 of 5 if we count rupert brooke).

>"German women should all be forced into prostitution and Jews should get free vouchers for the brothels."
hmmm and leftists love this guy?

>>13111327
poetry is about women

>>13111355
About the suffering of a man in love with a woman. And it becomes pithy and futile when that's all that it is about, because it's only individuated suffering. not righteous.

>>13111386
all poetry of value is matriarchal in its origin

>>13111486
sure thing homer

>>13111503
you don’t rate homer?

WWII and the consequent Anglo-Soviet supremacy killed poetry and philosophy.

>>13111282
based adorno making /lit/ great again

>>13111307
tripfags never cease to amaze me with their retardation

Paul Celan

>>13111206
btfo

>jew gets teary eyed over the holocaust
>WOW WHAT A FAG LMAO LIKE GET OVER IT DUDE

nice one /lit/, very cool!

>>13111307
LMAO

Post war poetry?
Never heard of Thomas?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1mRec3VbH3w

>>13111766
Those guys are not wearing trips

>>13111206
What is auschwitz

>>13112316
Meet and greet, shop and swap, antique body garage sale

i feel like people don't even try to look up what adorno actually meant with that claim

adorno was right about capitalism degrading culture and art into manafactured products

>>13112364
>capitalism degrading culture and art into manafactured products
Disagree, some 20th century American art in particular (literature, films etc.) was excellent. What has changed is the culture becoming more decadent, spoiled and ignorant after World War 2.

>>13112361
Will you tell us?

>>13111206

By far the worst thing about the Holocaust is the herd of menopausal busybodies eating the corpses. Would-be tyrants should indeed be careful lest they fail and condemn the world to be eroded by squawking.

>>13111206
The entirety of the Frankfurt School is focused upon eliminating threats to Jews.

>>13111206
Subversive yids crying about their run of the mill suffering (not even counting the memetic exageration of it) that every people has gone through.
I guess there could be no poetry after Tamerlan or after Lenin but apparently that doesn't count.

>>13112412
Of course some 20th century art was good, what Adarno spoke of was an ongoing process of degradation. We are only now really getting to the shit end of the stick.

Nazi LARPs fuck off

>>13111327
Finally an interesting take

>>13111355
Pleb

>>13112412
Are you dumb? Products can be excellent, too. Meanwhile your
>muh decadence
Take on it is pretty weak

>>13111255
>robert graves
Fucking thank you anon, I've been trying all morning to remember his name for something else, you're an absolute godsend. Most of his good shit is earlier though, but you have saved me my sanity.

bump

>>13111238
I love how the problem everyone has in the yt comments is not how he blatantly misrepresents the Frankfurt School, but that he fails to mention that they were jewish

>>13112310
kys butters. no one likes you.

>>13112326
Formerly Chuck's

>>13111206
Did he really say that?
Man What a tool.

>>13111282
we need more Adornoposting

>>13111766
>tripfags

>>13113478

As a third-generation Holocaust survivor, I agree with you completely.

There can be no more ______ after Charlottesville.... go

>>13113489
you need to go back

>>13111206
i would agree. we've had nothing but self indulgence that has gotten us to now, the anthropocene.

there can be no poetry after the anthropocene.

you have to learn to read between the lines lit, you fucking philistine, troglodyte fucks.

>>13111238
how do you btfo with facts and logic social science as philosophy and art?

Adorno was a pain in the ass

well said. why cant we just accept that ethics have become the aethetics of behavior?

>>13112285
not necessarily. I'd argue he was a death knell.

>>13112412
of course you'd say that. your taste is a product of those works which were a product of capitalism. its not that they were necessarily good or bad or hwhat have you, its that they are conditioned by capitalism and therefore sculpt or mold taste based on maintaining the stability and reproducibility of capitalism.

fuck haven't you even read Althusser?

seriously all the conspiratorial antisemitic bullshit better demonstrate its validity or cease.

its not funny. frogposters are better ffs.

>>13111206
desu I feel an great sense of calm when I think about the Holocaust, it makes me want to write poetry

>>13113835
>seriously all the conspiratorial antisemitic bullshit better demonstrate its validity or cease.
what are you talking about
everybody knows jews are not to be trusted

>>13111327
Jünger pilled
WWII was the final triumph of the technician over the warrior

>>13113489
No more Charlottes ?
The cake or the girl name, both work.

Ah, I see we are still discussing the intricacies of a 'genocide' that happened 80 years ago; truly the sign of a healthy, normal society.
God I hate America for the jewish trash heap it has become.

>>13113489
>As a third-generation Holocaust survivor
thats nothing, kid
im a 16th generation mongol empire survivor

>Dear Americans, citizens of the country that stopped the Holocaust, you need to feel guilty about the Holocaust forever
I don't get it.

>>13113977
You don't get that jewish billionaires and lobbyists ensure that the holocaust is propagated in all spheres of culture and education to make sure that people feel so ashamed that they are terrified to ever hold animus against another ethnic group?
There is a reason that Jews have been expelled from 109 European states over the past 2000 years.

>>13113977
>the country that stopped the Holocaust

have to say i agree. art today is decadence. yet here we are. awareness of the gap between our ethical imagination and our abilities is the first step to attempt to bridge it.

you sound like an interesting type anon. whats your go?

>>13113850
I am a Jew and I dont trust myself.
I even have a secret safe somewhere with some savings, but don't tell me.

>>13113977
The Americans didn't really stop much desu.

>>13114019
you have a secret safe somewhere with some savings

>>13114010
>Literally who, the map
Wow

>>13114010
Did Texas and New Mexico fucking secede, what's going on here

>>13114028
well i schooled in england, so

>>13114026
Really ? Damn me and my tricks. I bet I hid it in some degenerate place too.

>>13114036
for some reason this map hasn't given texas, new mexico and arizona their dues

>>13114036
>>13114063
US doesn't care about the rest of the world. When people in these parts heard news about the war, it had already been over.

>>13114063
>>13114036
And Newfoundland left the rest of the Canadians behind I guess

the existence of the jew is what stifles art, culture, the progreess of humanity. even marx knew this. the jew needs to be overcome.

>>13114108
Imagine genuinely believing this
What a whiny faggot

>>13111206
I believe what he actually said was something like “to write poetry after aushwitz is barbaric.” And if you take that to mean that writing poetry in the postwar era is pretty gay, then he’s right.

>>13112298
>anon gets teary eyed over board quality
>WOW LOOK AT ME I'M A TRIPFAG

nice one butterfly, very cool

>>13114117
imagine whiteknighting jews lol

>>13114214
shakespeare did it

>>13114221
>he ACTUALLY didn't get The Merchant of Venice
How????

>>13114214
I didn't whiteknight anybody, I called you a faggot for crying about how a bogeyman caused all your problems
I don't give a shit about jews or their problems

>>13111242
Not good poets

>>13114238
low IQ post

>There can be no poetry after the bombing of Dresden

>>13113967
The Holocaust is the new foundation myth of the West. All that is good is defined in terms of its opposition to Nazism and xenophobia. Compare that to the foundation myth of the Spartans for example, who believed all Spartans were descendants of Hercules. All that is good is defined in terms of "what would Hercules do?"
Different foundation myths will lead to different cultures. Getting beat over the head with shame for the Holocaust will have its consequences. It's not healthy. It's not a positive story. What happens when your entire civilization is based on the story of "you are bad, you should be ashamed of yourselves"?

>>13112412
Decadence began proper in the 19th century and produced good art.

What we see today is less true decadence and hedonism and more commodification.

>>13113977
>citizens of the country that stopped the Holocaust
lmao. go back to /sffg/ faggot

>>13114250
Kinda true too.

>>13114268

Perhaps decadence is like the ripening process; a little is good for the arts but too much makes the whole thing rotten.

Jakob Glatstein as a counter example comes to mind.

*blocks your path*

The critique of culture is confronted with the last stage in the dialectic of culture and barbarism: to write a poem after Auschwitz is barbaric, and that corrodes also the knowledge which expresses why it has become impossible to write poetry today. (Adorno, 1967, p. 34)

One of the most horrifying aspects of a visit to Dachau I made some years ago, when attending a meeting in Munich, was an SS notice inscribed on a wall that declared that anyone found writing or sharing poetry would be executed on the spot.

Adorno later recanted, stating that ‘Perennial suffering has as much right to expression as the tortured have to scream ... hence it may have been wrong to say that no poem could be written after Auschwitz’. Adorno’s bald statement is a method for demonstrating that art and traditional aesthetics have no value in a world of such horror and inhumanity.ring poetry would be executed on the spot.

>when you are so good that the Right have a love-hate relationship with you decades later

>>13111206
Following Heidegger's idea that there is no fundamental difference between the mechanised farm and the extermination camp, in their essence, I say that quantified ideas are no different from the exhumation of corpses and the tearing off of mud and limb before the incinerators. Against Adorno's quip that poetry is impossible after Auschwitz, I say that prose is impossible after the spinning jenny, dragoons and halberds, the Peace of Westphalia, Gutenberg's press, divine right, Magna Carta, crucifixion and enduring spectacles, the theory of non-contradiction, Christianisation, and the fall of myth to theological law.
Strangely enough, we are now at a point where the written word is instantly stamped into the logic of the museum, the chemist shop of communication made possible by grave-robbers. The word is deprived of all sense and human feeling, yet it petrifies the reader into a fine powder - the mind-body dualism of brain spatter on the mortar and pestle.

>>13111206
well, when a person learns about the lies they realize words are nothing but weapons of war and poetry doesn't seem so beautiful anymore.

>>13114433
This. Rationality, while not inherently bad itself, has overpowered spirituality and has as a result lead to the death of Romanticism. The Westphalian Peace invented the concept of the sovereign nation though, so if anything it planted the seeds for the literary romanticism which nationalism would eventually give birth to.

I disagree with Adorno’s claim that there can’t be poetry after Auschwitz, but the Nazi’s actions and everything that has been done in response to Auschwitz has dealt a catastrophic blow to romanticism. I’m desperately waiting for romanticism and sincerity to come back in vogue again. Moving on from the horrors of Auschwitz will likely be a step towards that.

>>13111206
Was that a covert way to say that jews would dominate culture?

>>13114372
Learn to make memes and refrain from posting until there.

>>13112316
No but seriously why did Auschwitz have a hospital they actively tried helping and treating jews in? If they were gonna kill them all anyways?

>>13111282
this fucking /notbased/ retard hates jazz for some reason

>>13114267
Based and Eric Striker pilled

>>13114238
>I did not whiteknight anyone I just defended them in a post!
Great argument

>>13112298
There's a shitton of other atrocities he could be teary eyed about, but he doesnt give a shit. I mean, we had plenty of poetry after Genghis Khan murdered 10% of the world population, and no one bitched about that.

>>13114532
Jazz was basically the hiphop of his times. Blacks fucking around while whites stick to superior musical artforms but become a minority because more an more people waste their time with the inferior black music.

>>13114547
Why are you defending some retard whinging about how he would totally be an amazing world-renowned artist if it weren't for those damn [outgroup] keeping him down

>>13114558
He never said that you illiterate

>>13113818
>Althusser
>muh Structural Marxism
No thanks.

>>13114557
between me and you I'd pipe down with that sort of stuff

>>13114597
what's wrong with structuralism?

>>13114433

>there is no fundamental difference between the mechanised farm and the extermination camp

Shit, this has been the source of my rage for years, and I've never been able to put it in to words. Cheers.

>>13114624
There's also no fundamental difference between a turd and you, does that cause you rage as well?

>>13114654

You're the one spending your time reading about economic theories that are never going to be applied to reality..

>>13114238
lol you're retarded

>>13114558
autism

>>13114306
>Perhaps decadence is like the ripening process; a little is good for the arts but too much makes the whole thing rotten.
Good point but the Arts are in many ways downstream from culture, the pitfalls of modernity (including the culture but not exclusively) is a very interesting and complex subject to discuss, I just don't think oversimplification helps very much and giving easy answer like "decadence" is something a large amount of people seem to get hung up on. I do basically agree with you.

>>13111234
olav h hauge, you pleb

Zoomers dont even know what auchwitz is, hopefully the GREATEST TRADGEDY becomes a blip like every other one and we can focus on poetry again

>>13111206
>Get over it faggot.

t. Great-grandmother who survived the Holocaust

>>13114532
Jazz is an orgiastic celebration of nihilist consumerism. There’s a reason it became the paradigm for popular music for the first half of the decade.

>>13114345
>bald statement
Heh

>>13114500
My question for you would be, can romanticism hold? I think this is especially important in the absence of any formal religion.

>>13114624
No problem.

>>13111206
"There can only be poetry after Auschwitz." -- Tony Harrison

>>13115211
"It's an outrage!" -- Tony Harrison

Adorno is become a trendy meme, people confuse his insights with a rejection, when his observations were meant to be used as a manual for modernist control. Thinking the Frankfurt school is based is anti-/pol/ which makes you smart because /pol/ is dumb.

>>13111282
The duality of man

>>13115219
he knows nothing of the crunch

>>13115175
Romanticism was born out of The Enlightenment, which was ironically also the birth of rationalism.

Romanticism and Rationalism have this complex rivalry where each would not exist without the other, but an abundance of one cancels out the other.

Today we see an abundance of Rationalism and Romanticism is net with mockery or skepticism as a result. This has lead to what I like to call a “culture of irony” in the arts. Nothing is sincere— Everything has to be a deconstruction of something. All art is judged on it’s political content above all else.

The Romantics of The Enlightenment were not concerned with Rationalism or Moralising. They lived only for beauty and the sublime. “Beauty is Truth”, as Keats put it. To bring back sincerity from art, I believe we need to stop judging the political aspects of it. The only politics the Romantics and their offshoots in the Gothic and Decadent schools believed in where politics that would impose few limitations on their art, or they would become nationalists solely for aesthetics (see Byron’s journey to Greece for this).

At the end of the day, the Holocaust will become just another faint memory in the big picture of human history anyway. Yes, it was unique in the suffering of the victims and the intricate bureaucracy to achieve it, and the pure evilness of the act, but at the end of the day it's just humans killing humans, nothing new. Why are jews so butthurt about it?

>>13112298
You still not dead yet, retard?