/lit/ - Literature

>>13096378
Authority

>>13096378
Democracy

>>13096378
Socrates could’ve escape with his bro Crito, but
>muh social contract

>>13096378
Should have kept his mouth shut.

>>13096378
>>talk with bros about life and stuff
more like

>approach some learned or authority figure
>"heh, you think you know something, but since virtue cannot be taught, you know nothing!"
>repeat till everyone hates you but your students who loved wating you DESTROY prominant citizens with FACT and LOGIC

>>13096393
/thread

>>13096393

More like

>ignorant uneducated people

>>13096423
So democracy

>>13096412
They were all frauds. He exposed them.

>>13096423
>ignorant uneducated people
>who have power because of democracy

>>13096462
>>13096476
??? its redundant to say democracy is full of ignorant people with power because it applies to every form of government.

How ironic was the whole thing with the oracle? He seems to have had a complicated relationship with authority...but challenging the supposed knowledge of authority figures was pretty much his thing, and nobody's more pretentious than the oracle.

>>13096378
He basically begged to be executed during his trial, it didn't have to be that way. Socrates was an asshole, the more you read about him the more you understand why he was executed.

>>13096478
A philosopher king is by definition not ignorant.

>being accused of perverting the youth
probably didn't fuck'em in the ass enough.

>>13096751
heartily kek'd
thanks, anon

>>13096378
He made it up.
He changed his mind about a few things, retire to write it all down differently, invented Plato as his biographer and had him finish off his old self fictionally

Plato never existed

>>13096399
He actually wasn't propounding an idea of the social contract, he was speaking in much more literal terms in that dialogue

>>13096805
my fellow kekistani brother
i love frequently visiting the_donald

>>13096833
your ass needs a nice pounding

>>13096833
>>13096865
From :3

>>13096478
Democracy is one of the only -- if not the only -- political system which voluntarily gives equal power to both the retard and the scholar. A philosopher who's studied political theory, socioeconomics, morality, epistemology, etc. has the same amount of power as Gaz down the road who hates blacks and sucks corporate cock. Democracy will only work if we implement IQ-based eugenics.

>>13096871
no, from me, I want to absolutely destroy her asshole

>>13096378
>Didn’t read Xenophon’s Apology

Prove that socrates even existed

>>13096953
Prove to me that you exist.
PROTIP: You can't.

>>13096378
that's just how it goes bro. that's why neets, incels, hikis and general recluses are right. you can't talk candidly with people or you risk being executed.

>>13096478
Democracy is to do everything to appease the ignorant people with no power.
Democracy isnt will to power.

>>13096875
>philosopher who's studied political theory, socioeconomics, morality, epistemology, etc. has the same amount of power as Gaz down the road who hates blacks and sucks corporate cock
Not true by the way

>>13096858
>I chose to live here and raise my child here and thus I accept and should obey this city’s rules
>They have charged me and deemed me guilty
>Thus I should not escape and accept the city’s decision

Zzzzzz

>>13097002
action movie brain

>>13096953
>Prove that socrates even existed
Can you define the word exist?

You know that the whole "executed because he was a philosopher" part is whitewashing by his pupils and he was killed because he was associated with Thirty Tyrants?

>>13097038
Prove it.

>>13096981
In an election, there votes would count for the same amount.

>>13096399
Socrates could've escaped, but then he wouldn't have been Socrates.

>>13096981
in america, redneck cleetus' vote is worth THREE times as much as a highly educated urbanite living in a major coastal city
lmao

>>13097074
>>13097063
>thinking the actual election matters

>>13097074
Truth is, the redneck's job is more vital and produces more wealth than the pretentious urbanoid with a humanities degree bragging about how abortions should be cost free cuz of muh progress.

>>13096378
He deserved it. He was a clever little shit, but a little shit nonetheless. The original fedora lord.

>>13097074
>thinking a significant # of urbanites are educated

>>13096953
Prove to me that you exist along with everything that is said to came before my own self's consciousness

>>13097038
t. sophist

>>13096378
It’s actually a lot less interesting than one might think

At the end of the peloponnesian war, Sparta set up a puppet government called the thirty tyrants in Athens
This government was run by some educated aristocrats who were largely taught by Socrates (Socrates, being famous for “corrupting the you”)
These tyrants were ousted by radical democrats who proceeded to purge the city of their formers rulers- and one of the people they put on trial and executed was Socrates

Sure he had criticisms of democracy, but he had criticisms of everything- it was the control of a radical democratic faction supported largely by an overpowerful navy- in a way a type of leftist military junta

>>13096378
Authority figures are always threatened by thinking men. You still see this today, for example on Fox News, when the hosts, who are doing the bidding of their merchant princes, mischaracterize and malign professors who dare to look honestly at our economic system. The corporate media has even trained countless viewers to unthinkingly reject what professors and researchers have to say when it is harmful to certain industries, particularly the oil and pharmaceutical industries, instead accepting the words of opinion show hosts.

>>13097338
What a fucking retard

>>13097227
Why would they kill him though? He wasn't a ruler. He spent his life criticizing the authorities; not the kind of guy it makes sense to kill because you hate the authorities.

>>13096478
Only democracy allows the ignorant to rule.

>>13096875
>IQ

>>13096860
Did someone mention Donny T? Epic kek my bros

>>13097074
not a single amerimutt on earth is educated

>>13097465
The democracy was always run largely by demagogues- essentially any well connected citizen with charisma
The Athenians had been basically tyrannised by Alcibiades before the thirty had been put in place- Socrates could potentially have wielded great political power in a newly democratic athens so people in charge pushed for his death
The Athenians were hated for this by most subsequent authors, so it’s not something people didn’t recognize as crazy at the time, but the war really fucked with Athens- plague, famine, an enemy military installation that would come out yearly to ravage their fields, and also the navy was an institution in its own right that relied on and empowered low class citizens, it was very radical once it took power back for the demos

>>13096378
Socrate's alleged crimes were 1. disrespect of the gods and 2. corruption of the youth.

The Athenian state essentially believed that Socrate's teaching was leading to too much rationality and skepticism, which was weakening their hold on the populace. Socrates was said to be "making up his own gods" and teaching this notion to the youth.

What does that really mean, making up your own gods? In the most basic terms it means thinking for yourself, but thinking in such a manner that it causes the very order of civilization to rumble. He promoted skepticism, which terrified the people in power.

Socrates was, quite literally, prosecuted for thought crime. It's amazing that his frank discussions about the nature of the world and human experience was considered threatening by the state. It provides deep insight into the workings of power and ideology.

>>13097483
Eat ass cunt
>t. American/only person in thread who knows shit about thirty tyrants and peloponnesian war

>>13096378
Tyranny of majority.

Plato would implement tyranny by geeks and snobs* given chance, mind you.

*Not even STEM nerds, since he actually moved philosophy AWAY from nature studies.

>>13096875
The thing is that it enfranchises ALL the high IQ people, as opposed to stricter elite rule, and produces less of an information bottleneck tapping into the total info pool.

As long as you have checks and balances enforced by offices that require some smarts to get into, you can filter out the worse.

You can also increase the minimum amount of high IQ approval that any proposal requires to be made law by increasing the % of vote required to pass. A plurality can be made only of stupid people if smart people are split opinion-wise. A majority sets a higher bar, but can still technically be made only of the bottom 50% of the population, in terms of wisdom or inteligence. Move that up to 60% and just like that it requires at least 10% of people over the middle to agree with the proposal. This is why more important decisions (like constitutional reform) usually require qualified majorities over absolute or relative majorities.

The spread of enfranchisement in ancient Athens actually partially owed it's beginnings to the need to break the gridlock/feuding between the ruling elites. Check out Solon, smart guy.

>>13097395
For some, the truth hurts.

It's even more interesting when you consider that Socrates was persecuted in a democracy (albeit a very fragile and traumatized one that just emerged out of an oligarchal dictatorship). It's living proof that democracies can be oppressive as well, in their own right, and can act to suppress the very fruit it is supposed to bear, free thought.
This is certainly represented today by coercive yet ostensibly democratic representations in today's withered half democracies.

>>13096378
If you want to tell people the truth, you’d better make them laugh or they’ll kill you.

>>13096378
This is from an anthology I'm reading on politics so it didn't go in too much detail but it is my understanding that Socrates had a connection with the regime of the 30 tyrants which made him a target.

>>13096378
Socrates and Jesus were killed through democracy

>>13097478
Based

>>13096378
It's also worth noting that Socrates could have easily saved himself by suggesting a weaker penalty for his "crimes" than death, and the Athenians fully expected him to do that. But instead he doubled down and demanded the city pay for his meals for life as his "sentence," since he was doing them a favor by talking to their sons about life and stuff. He could have saved himself easily, but he refused to admit he had done anything wrong and gave his life to maintain his principles. Whether that was noble or pants-on-head-retarded is up for debate.

>>13097478
It works. It's a bit clumsy, but it's far more accurate than the rest of sociology.

>>13097630
Indeed, Socrates gave his life for truth the way Jesus gave his life for love. Nietzsche draws them in parallel in this way.

>>13097483

Socrates gave his life to underscore the unjustness of his execution. Imagine getting killed because you dared teach young people a new way of thought.

>>13097471
Not true, kings can be ignorant too.

>b-but muh advisors

Highly educated advisors are commonplace in democracies too.

>le ebil SJWs killed him for political reasons
>getting killed because you dared teach young people a new way of thought.
god damn this board is retarded

>>13096412
>BUT WUT IF HE REALLY WUZ CORRUBDING DUH YOUTZ DO'?!
Name one worse philosopher than NEETchuh. I dare you.

>>13096393
>t.plato

>>13097777
I actually fucking can't. Quads of truth.
>nothing matters so just do whatever you want xD
There is not a more damaging philosopher out there.

>>13098127
>>nothing matters so just do whatever you want xD
>There is not a more damaging philosopher out there.
>t. never read Nietzsche
"What I warn against: the instincts of decadence should not be confused
with humaneness; the means of civilization, which lead to disintegration
and necessarily to decadence, should not be confused with culture; the
libertinage, the principle of "laisser aller, " should not be confused
with the will to power (--which is the counterprinciple ) . "
There are many values that Nietzsche puts forward in his works and many others that he warns agaisnt. He very often suggests a militaristic discipline style in some regards.

>>13097701
SJWism is just late stage xtianity. there is nothing less novel and profound than the idea of """social justice""" which the likes of luther and calvin were peddling centuries before the CIA co-opted it to destroy class consciousness

>>13098211
Sure but there are so many people out there who misinterpret his works to be screeds of pure nihilism that frankly it's damaging to modern society.

>>13098222
The people who "misinterpret" never actually read his works and simply went in for some "god is dead xd" meme bullshit. Nietzsche's works are to combat the "pure nihilism" that started to infest europe after noticing that the church actually doesnt hold any truth in it.
The same happens with the christian church and 90% of their followers that never actually bothered to know anything about it and just use it to gain some "virtue superiority" over those they hate.
The current "modern" christian church is the biggest joke we have in europe atm.

>>13098259
I humbly disagree. Christianity and it's doctrine of charity is the best thing that happened to European society.

>>13097649
Missed

>>13097471
There is no true democracy when there’s money around. But is this a racist dog whistle of yours?

>>13096953
Three other people attest to his existence
No provable sources exist to attest to Plato or Jesus existing

>be jew 21st century
>rape young generations with lgbtqt+ propaganda
>doesn't get fucking executed

What went wrong?

>>13096927
Came here to post this, Platofags are mongs with an inadequate image of Socrates.

Didn't argue his case well enough. He basically says "Im old"

John Wick 4 and Bill and Ted are actually the same movie, but in John Wick 4 you get to see all the stuff Bill did in the background, like poisoning Socrates.

>>13098272
Not previous anon. But i disagree
Middle ages Christian church:
>As your son grows up he becomes left handed
>Priest: That's a bad sign we need to purge him
>Priest then procedes to spend his life pretending to be chaste while fucking whores and drinking left n right
>Pope even turns his temple into a whore house during parties
Modern Christian church:
>Live humble life with wife
>Your wife gets dicked by blacks
>Priest: Lol you must forgive your wife and never hate or wish bad things to her

You need to separate the religion in theory from what actually happens, even during the middle ages only few of people took it all seriously while the others pretended it and used it to gain power over others.

>>13098371
Your idea of modern Christianity is drastically oversimplified. Adultery is known to be a sin even in the modern Christian Church.

>>13098533
Of course i need to explain it in oversimplified ways, this is a casual chat after all.
>Adultery is known to be a sin even in the modern Christian Church.
Ever since god as become about forgiving the christian church still says that you most forgive her for her sins tho.

>>13098639
Well God forgives those who acknowledge his existence and ask to be forgiven, so yeah that would include adulterous spouses. But impenitent sin, i.e sin that is repeated on and on without regret, is a one way ticket to hell. That's why it's my honest belief that homosexuals are doomed to hell.

>>13098280
I'm going to ignore the fact that you unironically used the term dog whistle and just answer your question. No. It isn't a racist dog whistle.

>>13098649
>If your wife takes just one little black peepee in the voovoo and says she is sorry you have to forgive her and cant shit talk her and remain her wife since you are both married.
Nah chief, i prefer to defend my ego than serving the cosmic father.

>>13098670
That's cool and everything but putting yourself above the almighty father is rather egotistical and immature in my opinion.

>>13098699
>is rather egotistical
>he still believes there is true altruism.

>>13097038
This is accepted history, didnt he support one, that got sent away then came back? Or the other way around. Game of thrones stuff really, as they were all high born "citizens” and had the slave helots do all the work while they sat around drinking wine and discussing ethics .

>>13096378
> What went wrong?

Socrates' pride led him to suicide by cop.

>>13098670
You can forgive someone, but still not trust them or remain married to them.
Modern sects of Christianity allow for divorce.

>>13096378
>Socrates: People in authority are stupid as fuck haha.
>People in Authority: Stop saying that.
>Socrates: No haha.

what if like, socrates gets a notification in the afterlife every time there is a thread about him? woah

>>13099197
He'd be turning over in his grave (or wherever his remains are) if that's the case what with all the retarded shitposts

>>13096378

He didn’t get a free gym membership.

Educate the stupids

Avoid killing the smarts

>>13097777
>Name one worse philosopher than NEETchuh
Stirner

>>13098654
Oh good.
Democracy works best in smaller decentralized groups. This also safeguards things from mishaps. A small goof will remain a small goof. In a one world government run by an elite, or even a computer, one goof is a huge deal.

So was it a tongue in cheek comment?
>Democracy allows the ignorant to rule
Because even the “ignorant” could run (parts) of the world like this well.
But I think we’d have better education and healthcare in such a world, so far less ignorant people walking around. Right?

>>13096378
2400+ years later & we're still talking about it. Oy.

>>13096378
>be socrates
>literally pursue the elite and shittalk them
>Gods! Why would they hate ME??!

>>13100048
>But I think we’d have better education and healthcare in such a world, so far less ignorant people walking around. Right?
That would lead to less democracy then. Democracy made education available to everyone not for the individual enlightment but to make their citizens "specialized ignorants" that are smart enough to do their high skill jobs and reject religion and other lower sphere forms of controlling people that threaten democracy and coorporate capitalism.
Democracy is itself life decadent, something that tries its best to make man as meek, tame and weak as possible, labeling it all in the name of "progress".

he got fucking executed

>when they pronounce it "saw-cruh-tees"

>>13100266
No, the *state* made state education a priority for capitalists. For a time capitalists needed specialized and highly trained workers, but now the bottom has fallen out and we have a labor surplus, so people are cheap and state funding for education is running on fumes. (Merrica)
Democracy does not make life “decadent” “meek” or “tame and weak”. You fail to show why it would.
It’s just a social decision making tool

>>13096875
>muh IQ
Democracy definitely sucks, and allowing the scholar and the retard have the same amount of power is definitely stupid. But the scholar and the retard both have their places in society. Having a society of only "tfw 2 intelligent" people will not work because none of them wold fulfill the retard roles.
Besides, character is more important if you ask me.

>>13096875
Women should not be allowed to vote

>>13097395
?

>>13100489
>Democracy does not make life “decadent” “meek” or “tame and weak”. You fail to show why it would.
>Literally a goverment type where the weak and the sick have the higher voice to rule over and rulers get their votes by who appeases the most.
>Not decadent and life denying

>>13100648
The so called scholar is perfectly free to voice their opinions to the public and many do so.

>>13096953
Aristophanes mocks him in his comedy "The Clouds"

>>13096860
kek as a replacement to lol predates kek as the meme pol egregore,it came from s4s when they discovered some turkish candy thing

>>13097638
It definetly was ballsy,though

>>13101785
Maybe your mother should have thrown you out for being so small and stupid while she had the chance, right?

>>13102308
>Lying to yourself this much

>>13096875
Yeah compared to monarchy or fascism where it's just given to the inbred retards only much better

>>13096378
I have no time to write a whole lot, so just pieces of information:


Sokrates was already disliked by a considerable part of the demos, most of them were thought their negative bias by their parents, as he states himself in Plato's dramatised and stylised Apologia.


Meletos - the guy charging Sokrates - was a careerist. Before the tiral (on his way) Sokrates talk with one of his dudes (Plato's Euthyphron) about how Meletos is a young guy and both him and his dude never heard of him. It feels like how brazilian student Ana Campagnolo sued her professor and made a public outrage out of it to become famous and succeed in politics.


Meletos charges were teared up by Sokrates in Plato's Apologia and if it really happened that way, Meletos would be an idiot and there would be no way 280 of 500 judges would deem him guilty.

>>13096833
based retarded tripfag

>>13096875
>thinking that studying things actually makes you knowledgeable about them

Most of the premises that are assumed by intellectuals today are wrong. Muh human rights, muh individualism, etc. A medieval peasant has a better grasp of the world than these people.

>>13102381
“Lying”? Wtf?

>>13102528
It is my little gag. Interesting concept, don’t you think?

>>13102770
>Muh free markets, muh untouchable gawd.
Knowledge generally improves people. So no, a medieval peasant did not have a better grasp of the world

>>13102770
>>thinking that studying things actually makes you knowledgeable about them
No it gives you a wider perspective on everything as your mind adapts to the new information and becomes more capable of generating new ideas.
> Muh human rights
How is this wrong?
>muh individualism
And this?
>A medieval peasant has a better grasp of the world than these people.
Can you elaborate?

>>13096927
>>13098285
xenophon put socrates like a virtuous man. there is no big difference between his portrait and the plato portrait. what the fuck are you talking about?.

He knew too much.

>>13096378
Unironically Jannies

>>13105357
I bet you wear woolen shorts with nappies inside

It's dangerous to speak truth to power.
Athenian democracy was not properly a democracy at all. Land ownership is not a prerequisite for political representation in a democracy. It should come as no surprise then when wealthy demagogues commandeer the judiciary to eneact personal revenge. Athenian democracy, like modern liberal democracy, just provided that prima facie legitimacy to a justice system that was anything but just.
To the long tradition of you who cry "tyranny of the majority!" I ask, "What majority?"