/lit/ - Literature

Their ideal art is trash like Brecht. I’ll give you that Schoenberg is preferable to jazz, but I don’t think they had a better alternative.

>heh, silly liberal there is no ethical consumption under capitalism
>trying to make the world a better place without a vanguard party.
>Heh, lol @ these lifestylists

MARXISM IS THE CANCER THAT IS KILLING THE LEFT

>>13067169
Liberalism = fascism
Capitalism= fascism
Traditional family = fascism
Consumerism = alienation and fascism
Democracy = fascism

>Call everything fascism then look for proofs to comfirm your theory.
>Cultural Marxism doesn't exist
Yeah. Thank you Frankfurt School.

>>13067169
>trying
You're not wrong

>>13067174
>Schoenberg is preferable to jazz
Like spraying Febreze on rotten garbage.

When everyone is the last man then everyone is an ubermensch.

>>13067196
obsessed

>>13067332
Me ?
Not at all.
I just read about it this morning on the way home.
I had no idea what they were about just a few hours ago

>>13067169
No. They have intentionally created it so that people might believe them. In every generation, they have attacked our sense of morals and tradition. Now they complain that capital has eradicated these things, but although it is true our sense of morality and tradition are gone, it is only by their hand. If you say that the system itself is immoral, then you are not longer compelled to act morally. As more and more people act without morals, faith in the system declines. And remember, nothing of what these Marxists have prophesied against was present at the beginning. In fact, almost everything went in the opposite direction as they expected. And yet they are still here, saying everyone else is evil. And what sacrifice have they ever deemed too great? Do not forget that the terrible corporate raiders of the 80's were not standard businessmen. They were, almost all of them, ex-hippies. It was not capitalism that had made them without ethics, but communist agitators which had convinced them that their country was evil. How can they complain of a lack of beauty and value and meaning and purpose and what have you at the same time that they are the artists and musicians and writers who attack beauty, and love, and truth?

>>13067332
is this the new seething?
christ.

>>13067391
>Now they complain that capital has eradicated these things, but although it is true our sense of morality and tradition are gone, it is only by their hand.
w0t

>>13067365
it shows.

>>13067509
Obsessed is old. It comes from, "do Americans really do this???" And then a poster with an American flag calls them obsessed.

>>13067174
If you read Brecht his apparent end goal was to turn his “art” into basically non-art and more like staged documentaries with propaganda overtones

>>13067537
Don't pretend I'm not right

>>13067169
>tfw ywn be a quintessentially european bourgeoisie bohemian jewish intellectual of the early 20th century
>tfw ywn spend an afternoon at a Swiss resort discussing Karl Kraus' latest article with a Viennesse qt.

why live?
you goyish barbarians just had to ruin it for everyone, why?

>>13067391
>unironically believing in cultural marxism

>>13067391
>our
>morals
>tradition

How was church yesterday? I was too busy jacking off to cuck porn to make it, but, hey, that's what the leftists pay me to do. Hope you prayed for me.

>>13067391
yea it was these scrawny french and jewish nerds that destroyed the west, sure.

>>13067509

u mad

>>13067556
>qt
Jewish women all look like Bob Dylan
They're pretty smart and cultivated tho.
Sneaky as well.

>>13067169
Brecht and Benjamins idea of the politization of aesthetics lead directly to poptimism and woke capeshit movies. aestheticising politics just seems more tempting with every passing day, doesn't it?

>>13067560
>unironically believing gender is a social construct

>>13067560
How long will you deny ?

>>13067581
Is this all you think Marxism is about?

>>13067560
its managerial shitlibbery. If adorno had been born half a century later, he would have probably ended up a weird paleocon like Paul Gottfried.

>>13067568
Church was great. Before mass, there was a procession of the young girls of the parish carrying flowers, and a crown of flowers to celebrate Mary as the queen of the church. The decency and innocence of the experience was especially invigorating. It feels good to pray with the community and know that we are making a better place to live for the coming generations. If you tell me your name, I will gladly pray for you.

>>13067570
Ideas are powerful. Don't underestimate the danger of a thought just because it comes from someone who cannot fight. How do you think the small and weak survive, except by their words?

>>13067600
Charles.
Please pray for me.

>>13067593
Seems I struck a nerve. And you have the question wrong. Why is it a part of marxism at all?

>>13067580
>tfw Benjamin is to blame for Rupi Kaur

>>13067611
my name is also Charles. I will pray for you.

>>13067617
>Seems I struck a nerve.
That guy just asked you a question bud
>Why is it a part of marxism at all?
If you think it is you haven't actually read Kapital, and, if you haven't, how can you tell what Marxism is?

>>13067609
literally nobody reads or understands those nerds outside of old crusty nerds in their academic bubbles

>>13067630
>marxism refers only to marx's words
Look man, I can tell you're new here, so I'm going to be generous. It's true this board is full of pseuds, you'll probably even call me a pseud, but that doesn't mean you can just go around ignoring over a century of academic development and analysis just because it impinges on your teenage delusions of grandeur. Well, I guess you can, no one will stop you; however, you look really lame when you do.

>>13067169
Yeah sure.
Not like they were marxists incognito...

>>13067593
from listening to the people who call themselves 'marxists' in the year of our lord 2019 you'd believe its all about promoting transgenderism, open borders and banning no-no words.

Marxism is a weak ass theory that has been contradicted by all available evidence, the revolution always gets 'betrayed' somehow, and yet the true believers will always keep moving the goalposts. Marxism was never the ideology of the working class, but of intellectuals and managerial elites. But it turns out generic intersectional progressivism serves their class interests more effectively and with no need of risky compromises with the great unwashed. hand in hand with capital to a gayer, multiculored future!

>>13067646
How is the idea of ideological genealogy so foreign to psueds? There are very clear paths from the circles of influence of the Frankfurt School (those who influenced the school, and those the school influenced), to the counter-cultural movement of the 60s and 70s, and even to the current developments in post-marxist thinking. Most people don't read Aristotle, but almost every conversation most people in the west have has been influenced by Aristotelian thought.

>>13067671
where are the marxists? name ONE (1) marxist.

>>13067673
There are also clear links between postmarxism and modern day PR/consumer culture. Ideologies are pretty dead now, if you read think tanks/ examine real world policy you will see in the post-kissinger world political power is mostly geared towards resource allocation/management and behavioral engineering. The fighting that happens on an ideological level is merely an epiphenomenon of the real movements of power. Alex Jones was close to the truth but he's far too gone now. Chomsky as well. Idk who is a clear thinker anymore.

>>13067580
>Brecht and Benjamins idea of the politization of aesthetics lead directly to poptimism and woke capeshit movies

Are you a complete retard?

>>13067680
Adorno Benjamin Lukacs, Debord, Althusser, the list goes on or are you talking present day marxists? why should I even learn the names of such spineless irrelevant people, within 5 years the progs will purge them from the academy for refusing to prostrate themselves before an idol of YAS KWEEN Beyonce. then they will fall into complete oblivion or become absorbed into the globohomo apparatus.

>>13067391
>It's another 'Abrahamic stooge blames external tormentors and fixers for the state of everything he dislikes' episode.

>>13067658
How the fuck does the fact that there were other Marxists after Marx himself contradict the fact that you don't have any understanding of Marxism because you haven't read fucking Marx? How the fuck can you even tell if these Marxists are Marxists at all if you, once again, haven't read Marx?

>>13067698
People cannot exist without ideologies. They are an unavoidable structure of the mind. It is not that these think-tanks and officials lack ideology, it is that their only ideology is modernist material economy. It is such a deeply embedded ideology that it appears to them not as ideology at all, but simply as "truth".

>>13067509
newfag

>>13067712
>external tormentors
They were men like any other. Men like you and me. There is nothing external about them. They were real people who made real choices. The evil is not outside of us, it is in our hearts. Those men deceived themselves and chose evil. But they had the same choices you and I face every day.

>>13067698
This is why I think the radical right is the real counterculture, in an age where woke consumerism is mandatory, where what is being sold is less the product than the social engineering that comes with it, anti consumerism implies reactionary social attitudes and rejection of the lgbtCIA ideology of diversity, progress and inclusion

>>13067624
Thank you

>>13067658
Except you aren't even talking about Marxists, you're just describing shitty liberals.
>>13067671
>Marxism is a weak ass theory that has been contradicted by all available evidence
Such as?
>generic intersectional progressivism
Again this is just shitty liberalism that has nothing to do with Marxism.

>>13067728
>People cannot exist without ideologies
Ideologies exist for less than 300 years, how do you think people were living all the time before that?

>>13067579
You say this as if 65-66 Bob didn't look exactly like every sad art ho people here fawn over

>>13067746
The point is it's all the same old Abrahamic screed where a useless old man complains about the state of things while doing nothing to make a difference and lays blame for the perceived "sorry state of things" at the feet of an imaginary adversary.

>>13067703
prove me wrong. leftists have merely substituted the ideal of muh heroic working class with the liberated sexpositive gendernonconforming decolonised subject of consumer enjoyment. makes socialist realism and Brecht look positively sublime in comparison, but its the same fundamental principle at work, ie. the aesthetisation of politics. Even well read leftists will defend Rupi Kaur and say her poems 'aren't so bad' why? because they are ideological fools

>>13067752
>This is why I think the radical right is the real counterculture
this would only work if the left was mainstream culture, but what you perceive as radical right and radical left are just american neoliberalism more or less accepting of gays and trannies.

>>13067784
>prove me wrong
That's not how logic works. If you make a claim you defend it.

>>13067752
No, anticonsumerism is inherently anticapitalist and rejecting liberal coopting in the form of woke consumerism is an aim of actually revolutionary anticapitalist thinking. You are fully supporting consumerism, you just don't like that you're no longer being marketed towards.

>>13067776
Young Arendt is his fucking sosia and don't try to deny it.
All ashkenazi jews are look alikes.

>>13067795
A lot of them have that Sicilian look

>>13067759
>Again this is just shitty liberalism that has nothing to do with Marxism.

it has nothing to do with 'muh real authentic marxism' which is an archaic 19th century ideology, as silly as calling yourself a saint-simonist, a legitimist, chartist, whig or temperance activist. you are just out of your depth dude, ' anti idpol marxists' invariably are petty bourgeoisie white males who are too autistic to realise all politics are identity politics, too disgusted with the monoculure to try and ascend the globohomo ladder, but too guilt ridden to fight for their volk und heimat, they seek an escape hatch via an archaic ideology that tells them nothing of it is real and muh workers will rise up and queer hellworld will just melt into the air!

>>13067391
Right...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-njxKF8CkoU

>>13067794
Anticonsumerism isn't inherently anticapitalist. Capitalism preceded consumerist culture. There was a time before Bernays. Not to say that capitalism with its focus on financial commodities over real goods doesn't have some very big internal contradictions, but consumer culture is something I think far right and actual far left are both against. How to extract that common good out of the retardation present on both sides is really a mystery.

>>13067825
As a sicilian I call bullshit on that

>>13067835
All politics are not Idpol. But I agree with you mostly. We probably just disagree about how important it is that jews are overly represented in the oligarch set. I couldn't care less I don't think it reveals much, since the "jew tactics" are being employed by every stripe. I actually like Varg's approach, he is mostly just positive about what is great in western culture although I think he offers no solution. We can't all go and live on a farm with a French autistic q.t.

>>13067174
I'd rather read Brecht then watch Endgame ever again.

>>13067794
it really throws a wrench into the leftist framework that the queers and the blacks and the wymmin have been all domesticated by the system, while the gamer and the incel have emerged as revolutionary subjects.

>not real Marxism
Not this shit again. Truly, the intelligentsia in West has hit a wall with Marxism and its American cousin (Progressivism), no matter how shit things get, they will never change their minds.

>>13067859
Maybe just Mediterranean in general. Ashkenazi's have more Northern European admixture

>>13067759
>people who call themselves marxists, who worship marx, who wears marx t-shirts every day on their way to college and starbucks propagate for stuff like multiculturalism, feminism, humanism, anti-white narratives etc (basically anything except materialism) dominate academy, open discourse, all platforms more or less
"THEYRE NOT REAL MARXISTS, THEYRE CRYPTO-LIBERALS MISLEADING THE WORKING CLASS"
no you fucking faggots, your doctrine never put forth anything except moralistic shit that appeals to the upper-class and that fucks over the working class.
it always boils down to "not real marxism/communism" just so you can continue larping as an edgy lefty, fuck off.

he did have some good bantz tho, pic related

>>13067871
Yeah you're not wrong there. I saw it happen at OWS. The drones took over the governing "party" directed by union stooges and college professors. The left has fallen apart in the US mostly because service economy employees aren't actual proletarians. A proletarian knows something his boss doesn't

>>13067847
>Anticonsumerism isn't inherently anticapitalist.
It is. Capitalism without consumerism is doomed to face overproduction crisises much more often than it does with the consumerist culture already set, and since the Earth isn't endless imperialism can't solve the problem either

>>13067673
>and those the school influenced), to the counter-cultural movement of the 60s and 70s, and even to the current developments in post-marxist thinking. Most people don't read Aristotle, but almost every conversation most people in the west have has been influenced by Aristotelian thought.
This is a lie btw, Adorno died while opposing the '68 student movements, and so did the rest of the Institute. Also most Frankfurters were also professors teaching classics, and in most of their aesthetic theories traditional works (especially classic literature and music) are celebrated costantly.
Basically: your post is nonsense

Wasnt marx all about consumerism though?

>>13067880
Yeah northern Italians have had more contacts with jews.

>>13067174
I'd rather read Brecht then watch Endgame ever again. >>13067391
>They were, almost all of them, ex-hippies
Surely it cannot get any better

>communist agitators which had convinced them that their country was evil
I was wrong

>>13067174
it isn't hard to enjoy this in a purely aesthetic level which means brecht fucked up somehow
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ec0clERjQ5A

>>13067169
>try to save us from the hellscape by making it worse
I'd rather they didn't try

>>13067891
Yeah but without all the spooks like commodity fetishism and money involved

>>13067698
>Idk who is a clear thinker
Georgio Agamben sounds like someone you would find interesting, anon

Everyone takes their word as if it was written in stone but are forgetting they were just theorists whose works were just interpretations and could easily be wrong. Adorno probably would have encouraged people to challenge his views of art

>>13067883
Well yes indeed, people who propogate for multiculturalism, anti-white narratives and nu-feminism aren't marxists because all these things benefit bourgeoisie and the fact that they call themselves marxists doesn't change the reality, you could with the same result call North Korea the freest country on Earth because, you know, it has "People's Democratic Republic" in its name

>>13067885
Yeah but like I said we did have capitalism without consumerism. It worked pretty well for about 100 years. The conflict was betweem consumerism and socialism and consumerism won here but not in the east. We see China with its mixed economy and it is successful but not ideal for most people. Same with the system here. I for one believe humans don't need society whatsoever. We survived maybe 80 millenia without it and in the past 10 have brought ourselves to near extinction. I don't think even a perfectly functioning marxist utopia could solve the problems we face.

>>13067905
Looks fuckin rad anon thanks.

>>13067174
Adorno's ideal writer was Beckett. I want to say he even prefered Berg to Schoenberg, and probably Wagner to either.

Yeesh marxists ought to get a lot better at calling out their liberal shitheels or just mark fischer yourselves already

>>13067174
this

>>13067883
We're in two different worlds then. The majority of people I talk to who focus on gender and idpol always throw in anticommunist rhetoric as a way to legitimize their argument. Anarkiddies do this shit too, they can't go a couple of minutes without disavowing every revolution except the ones that lastes a couple of months before being crushed.
>>13067933
Unironically agreed.

>>13067794
normie leftists will become personally offended if you are even slightly cynical about mainstream pop culture. I think Marx greatest error was assuming people were just blank slates and nothing matters except production, really set the stage for the social engineering that followed. marxists still talk like we are in the 19th century and everyone is either a prole on overalls or a top hat pig capitalist. they can't explain postfordism or the rise of the managerial class, and how really political conflict goes way beyond labor and capital and is fundamentally related to identity. 19th century social democrats had to go to the shantytowns to domesticate a working class immersed in superstition, debauchery and fornication and teach them to be nice little bourgeoisie with family values and a new worker identity, organised as a political mass. Likewise, leftist academics go into our schools and teach our children to be gay little queers and white guilt neurotic consumers, dependant and happless people with no spine.

>>13067916
>It worked pretty well for about 100 years
It actually failed pretty badly after the was no much room left for the capitalist countries to expand their markets as the WWI ended, and although 20s marked the economic growth in the winning countries due to the earned money, as soon as it ended the biggest overproduction crisis occurred - the Great Depression - which could only be fixed with setting Keynesian economics first and more beneficial consumerism later

>>13067912
marxism always ends up with an elite claiming to act on the working classes behalf, they always need to kill a few people (never the people who cause the real problems), you always need to redistribute weath, which always ends up in your own pockets, never the people, the seizing of the means of production always ends up with fatass union pigs in alligiance with the party running things etc.
the point being that there is no concistency in your doctrine, the meaning of all slogans (seize means of production, to each according to ability etc) changes meaning depending on what fits those in charge at the moment.

>>13067888
How is this any different to boomer liberals being upstaged by younger radlibs today? Without the Communist Party to clearly delineate what is and isn't Marxism, heresy is inevitable.

>>13067961
I agree normie leftists are cancer but I won't throw in my hat with people who would strengthen the God damned state and implement moral certitude in the form of prison sentences. Death to all who can't think for themselves I say. Should be easy to test for that by the time someone is 18. Maybe sooner. >>13067964
Yeah the 20s is when it was failing, but like my shitbox Mazda, an aging body needs work. The people accusing you of being out of touch with reality are right. You see society as some kind of Lego set in need of the right pieces. It is far more like a pot of boiling crawfish.

>>13067981
Well cool, but how does all these facts disprove Marx's theory or the fact that neolibs aren't commies? What you described happens to any socio-political system, so how does it exactly makes capitalism a better alternative to socialism?

>>13067941
i would say that it is a philosophy that has leaked into all areas, where im from a marxist/lefty will just lie by omission, cuck strategically and then hail mass murders when they know they wont be judged, and then there are far outliers, i can respect some lefties but youre too few and too autistic. but sure, ill grant you that gender faggotry isnt fundamentally a part of leftism, but the majority of contemporary lefties do propagate for shit like that

>>13068009
Lets not forget Röhm a true NAZI and a real boyfucking queer.

>>13068001
>Death to all who can't think for themselves I say. Should be easy to test for that by the time someone is 18. Maybe sooner.
You sound incredibly edgy

>>13068037
Bite it you scum

>>13067888
The ideas aren't nrcessarilly in their control

>>13068001
>Yeah the 20s is when it was failing, but like my shitbox Mazda, an aging body needs work
Well, it's not really like everything was extremely bright before that too, just look how much of a mess in Europe did the crisis of 1848 result in, for instance. Also, don't forget that back in these times capitalism could do fine without consumerism exclusively thanks to imperialism which is highly unlikely to be engaged en masse due to the more strict division of the spheres of influence today

>>13068005
im not as big brained as you so i probably cant put forth a compelling argument for an unflawed system that is a better alternative compared to the degeneracy that follows with capitalism; marxism to me first and foremost doesnt appeal to me because ive seen through history what the results have been (inb4 not real communism/marxism) and i also see who shills for marxism nowadays: feminists, woke nibbas, hippie boomers, basically anyone anti white/anti western (same thing) and a few autists on 4chan.

>>13067196
stalisnism = fascism

>>13068031
i do not know who he is or what he did, but anyone who fucks a kid should be gassed

>>13067926
Adorno disliked Wagner and thought his leitmotifs had dumbed down music.

I like how /pol/'s only response to the Frankfurt school is crying about SJWs and Marvel movies.
You can tell they are really literature.

>>13067841
Did you actually listen to what he said, or are you just linking this because he didn't like the hippies? What he is saying is hardly that different from Foucault. He dislikes it because he thinks it is doomed to failure based on its unavoidable commercial residue. How do you not understand what he is saying? If this music is too attached to its commercial roots to be of any use, are older forms better? Of course not. It is the perennial pastime of all marxists of all stripes to say that nothing is good enough, that nothing anyone else does can truly be considered marxism, that only their efforts, and perhaps by accident some small portion of the efforts of others, can every be accepted as the true path.

>>13068001
nobody really believes in free speech and freedom of thought, it strikes me as oblivious that people on here hand-wring about sjws burning books without realising the current situation is a result of people not burning leftist books when they could. I am a Carl Schmitt and Hobbes kinda guy, to me you are just another fence sitting liberal.

>>13067783
And yet I am not old, and I am not doing nothing. I am going to church, I am participating in my community, I am giving money to help restore our church which is a Gothic Revival from German immigrants. And you must understand--living a good life, being good to other people, is a constant choice, a constant struggle, and our only hope. For the sake of economic relations, perhaps a King, or an executive is necessary to regulate trade and commerce, but no such system can make the world a better or worse place. Get outside, get to know somebody else, and grow up.

If there's anything I've taken away from this thread, it's that Marxists need to update popular rhetoric and distance themselves from liberals at every given opportunity.

>>13068105
mentioning /pol/ is NPC pseud shit. A desperate attempt to signal you are part of the anti/pol/ clique, as you lack the confidence to make this apparent though regular posts. /pol/ is dead and irrelevant.

Lefties have a habit of reading frankfurt ideas as a critique of modernity and not a guideline to invigorate it.

>>13068219
But that's what it is.

>>13068075
For fuck's sake what the fuck did the nigger actually like?

adorno was right

>>13068005
>get BTFO
>well cool...
how do you simpering faggots actually live with yourselves day to day? I'm continually stunned that you're even real people. In fact, I'm losing confidence you are "real" people.

The Real Frankfurt School

Basically the modern left that everyone rails against are a mix of right-wing economic growth fundamentalism and resentful post-colonial marxist theories.
When you maintain that an enormous population growth is absolutely neccessary for an economy(since growth is the only way for people to have money without taxation or inflation), and that European or white nations are rich solely because they stole all the money from brown people, the only conclusion is wide open borders and deluded antagonism towards "western-culture".

>>13067560
>unironically being a chapofag gaslighter

>that's not real marxism
>it will work this time
When will they give it a rest, lads?

>>13071184
when every capitalist classcuck is in a mass grave

>>13067600
>a crown of flowers to celebrate Mary as the queen of the church
Regina caeli?

>>13071191
You will never be a real woman.

>>13071198
yes i will, faggot. you cdant stop me

>>13067556

Precisely because of you yourself (where I assume for discussion that you yourself are a juwe). The European juewry expressly deserved what was done to it, and to be brought low from the decadence which it had enjoyed up to that point (to falsely opine on European high culture (Arcades, Aesthetics, Logic), a business which it never had, does not now, and never will have, all of which because- it can never possibly have-any business meaningfully commenting on. Regrettably, the job went unfinished, and the juwes have since reclaimed their place on the continent. The result is a net negative for humanity, notwithstanding the objective intelligence of the minor cohort. We are better served that that cohort cease to exist, as an imperative. Let us finish the work.

The juwes are the people who will not be blamed for nothing. And rightly so.

>>13068031
there is a difference between the pederasty of the ancients(which is a noble and elevated pursuit central to european culture) and queershit(which is degenerate faggotry)

>>13071475
Aesthetics and AIDS

>>13071475
The noble of elevated pursuit of boipucci, yes

>>13067169
They created This hellscape. Their political theology alone made it possible.

>>13067169
One could make the argument that the Frankfurters weren't actually Marxists but were ambiguous conservative elitists that used Marxist and Freudian categories to express their patrician contempt fot the industrial world.

>>13067537
>>damned If You do damned If You don't.
We will do away with your kind.

>>13067869
Beckett > Brecht

>>13071504
How.

>>13071125
>he thinks economic growth = extensive growth
based retard

>>13071475
every single negative aspect of homosexuality is because of straight people engaging in sexual activity foreign to them, such as fucking underage boys.

>>13071546
seducing underage boys is trad and permissible for a married heterosexual man, on the other hand engaging in a grotesque parody of a normal heterosexual relationship with a phony marriage certificate and a gay dog/somalian child making up for the white children you never had, that really is faggotry.

>>13071496
You will never be a real woman.

>>13071512
You could But that would be wrong because they accept the class war dynamic so They can't be anything but marxists.

>>13067568
>yeah i am a cuck!!!
Great comeback reddit

>>13071715
contemporary American liberalism has increasingly assumed a religious, indeed a millenarian, tenor, taking as its mission the therapeutic reconstruction— and thereby the spiritual redemption— of the benighted mass. The therapeutic regime proceeds according to the notion of “tolerance” and under the scheme of “multiculturalism.” Contemporary liberalism habitually sees the average person as condemned to preterition, helplessly enthralled by his reactionary “middle class” ideology, and as embodying an insufferable scandal to his sanctified other. The typical other, according to this vision, is a thirdworld immigrant, a member of some ethnic minority, a put-upon woman, or someone whose sexual practices are non-normative. The entwined motifs of proselyte activism and of the salvaging of the heathens derive, in the context of North American liberalism, from two related sources: Nineteenth Century Protestant revivalism, whence the crusading character of the phenomenon, and a mélange of Unitarianism and Transcendentalism, whence its philosophical justifications and theosophical vocabulary. This is not a marxist philosophy, though it is definitely collectivist

>>13070013
>muh communism kills!
>lol BTFO
retard alert

>>13071813
I actually admire the Stalin's Soviet Union as a shinning example of the authoritarian order we might all do well to aspire to. The USSR's musclebound proletarians and space age byzantine grandiosity sure beat the modern left's fat dykes and uggo trannies.

>>13071824
Jesus Christ, the whole discussion in this retarded off-topic thread was about these fat dykes and uggo trannies not being leftists because they support capitalism and the fact that they call themselves "leftists" doesn't change their neoliberal nature

>>13067169
Well, sort of. They were also quite wrong about a lot of stuff. Who would have thought that woke capitalism would be the future and that it would be most spiritually bereft system imaginable?

>>13071841
regardless of what you say, being a leftist today objectively means supporting the managerial state and corporate capitalism, either by promoting it directly as the fat dykes and uggo trannies do, or by making excuses and confusing people with half baked 'theory' as 'anti idpol' real leftist(tm) bros do. Opposition to globalisation and capitalism is a far right position

>>13071871
How do 'real leftists™' not oppose capitalism?

>>13071884
See de Jouvenel's high/low vs. middle dynamic. The high recruits the low (the left) to secure power against the middle. The left fight for the high unawares.

>>13071884
In theory, the vanguard should organically develop out of the leading lights of the proletariat. Are these the guys who spring to mind when you think of that?

>>13071984
>all leftism is Marxism Leninism
based retard

>>13067174
Don't forget other hacks like Gorky.

>>13071988
by this point all leftists, from liberals to marxist leninists to left commmunists are de facto intersectional managerial neoliberals, hey maybe intersectionality and woke capital are the ultimate telos of all leftist theory.

>>13072002
seems like a bit of a stretch, but ok

>>13072002
This. Chapofags like to LARP about being revolutionaries but they’re just the same as any woke Twitter wine aunt.

>>13071715
hence i said "ambiguous"

>>13071988
And what exactly are they going to do without a vanguard? That's my point, they're neutered, they have no praxis.

>>13071932
Just briefly viewed his On Power and assuming you are talking about classes here, although this statement is partially right, it ignores the fact that anyone who has to sell his labour force is considered to be a part of the proletariat, i.e. large part of the middle class most certainly is as just much proletarian as any factory worker, the only thing that is different between them is the level of prosperity of each. So, by saying this, you basically imply that capitalists bond with one part of proletariat against other proletarians, which isn't really any kind of hot news since it's been that way for as long as the concept of socialism exists
>>13071984
Here you are rather critical of the modern left thinkers personas than the left itself, which is understandable really

>>13067391
Jesus dude fucking educate yourself.

Yes but the solution failed anyway .


Both Marxism/Bolshevism and Fascism/Nazism tried to more or less fight against a capitalist world order. The problem was, that both of them fundamentally resulted in a negative view of reality , that what was positive would have to be the opposite of the present reality. Baudrillard in a quote somewhere says that the Nazis also must have fought so hard for a reason, in that the sensed what was coming would be the total domination of the world, by someone other than them. Both Fascism and Nazism resulted in a Gnosticism, with the true and the good being somewhere out there in the world as destiny or a utopian future. But liberal Capitalism utterly triumphed against both because it was able to transform the culture and material conditions of the globe in ways unprecedented in human history.

We are very close to going beyond "the culture industry", to a Global mono cultural , where power has become almost stratospheric. One cannot even speak about alienation anymore. But a complete transformation of mankind into something else.

>>13072037
Perhaps the global monoculture will result in a truly homogenized proletariat able to attain full class consciousness like Marx predicted. But by then the elites look like they'll have their shit together and have consolidated their power beyond all reach.

>>13071551
no degenerate, go back to fucking women, fucking deranged hetero. fucking breeders ruining the legbutt community.
>muh drag kids
if there were no larping straight faggots then there would be no pole dancing kids too.

>>13071529
I am just describing a common reasoning/argument though

>>13067169
"I told you about the capital bro!"

>>13067593
It's the logical conclusion of Marxism

>>13067680
Mike Isaacson

>>13072024
Different poster, but the HLvM dynamic isn't about classes in the Marxist sense, and a viewing of history through this lens would probably identify Marxism as a tool for power expansion by mobilizing what were at that time marginal elements within society. Before Marxism-Leninism existed you had similar intellectual movements like the Narodniki.

>>13067581
But anon, it literally is. You're thinking of sex.
Gender is among other things role you're playing in relation to biological sex, and it has taken many forms in many societies.
Or are you some weak-ass pleb that doesn't believe in the existence of the god-tier tomboy, and is weak enough to want some brainless housewife? Faggot.

>>13067169
nigga marxists won

>>13072541
this is what happens when marxism wins: everything is relative, science doesn't matter, you're a man or woman according to what your personality and tastes dictates
in the real world gender is a fucking buzzword

>>13071475
>there is a difference between the pederasty of the ancients(which is a noble and elevated pursuit central to european culture) and queershit(which is degenerate faggotry)

Are you telling that there's possibility of a mainstream homosexual neo-nazi group coming into existence?

>>13072578
That's not marxism.

>>13072589
death of traditional family and western values isn't marxism sure thing leftypol

>>13072677
Well yeah, you can integrate all these institutions into communist society because it's rather economic than social system

>>13067169
>hellscape
Don't know about you, but my life is pretty good. Sorry you got stuck working at McDonald's, but under any other system, you'd probably be doing something just as menial and humiliating.

>>13072578
>you're a man or woman according to what your personality and tastes dictates
But that's what the scientists say

Modern marxists and socialists are to easily strong armed by minorities. Must be the easiest fucking shit for CIANiggers to disrupt

>>13072689
did you read the communist manifesto you fucking retard?

>>13072775
no

if idpol isn't marxism, how come there's no non-idpol online marxist community?

>>13072829
Muh /leftypol/

>>13072842
yeah what about it?

Why are Americans so deathly afraid of Marxism and socialism? It's not that big of a deal.

>>13072847
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>13069936
Being an uptight cunt for all his life

What ideology do I go for if I hate capitalism's complete destruction of culture and the environment, hate the rich for bleeding the world dry and controlling all government decisions with their own whims, hate the poor for willingly being retards consuming whatever is put in front of them without ever considering self-improvement, hate the middle-class for being spineless managerial shitlib hedonists, and overall think humanity is on the exact course of self-destruction and ultimate death that it's earned for itself

>>13072915
start doubting what you think you know.

>>13072915
hate is not a particularly solid foundation for any political ideology

>>13072915
read marx, nietzsche, adorno, debord, benjamin, virilio, mcluhan, deleuze, guattari

>>13072915
>What ideology do I go for
None.

>>13067192
The left was overtaken decades ago.

>>13067391
typical inane brainlet postulation

>>13067579

Jewish women fuck like they don't care what God thinks, so it evens out

>>13073020
I genuinely admire marxism's utopian endgoal, much more so than capitalism's idealized free market, but I genuinely don't think humanity is good enough at its core for any ideology to not be corrupt and destructive and don't think it will ever improve itself to a degree that allows us to meet those utopian endgoals

>>13068118
You are too much of an idiot to understand the real underlying problem. There's no marxist boogieman, but capitalists that structure the everyday life of the population and what they consume, including ideas directed by the MSM straight from corporations to the masses.

The connection to consumerism of the hippies was never going to be enough to bring the radical change needed. So the businessmen act like good neolibs, not racist or offensive in any way, but unflinching in their aims of capital accumulation.

>>13073032
t. Tranny

>>13072915
Culture was fine when capitalism was at its peak, but when marxism infiltrated college and media it all went downhill, think about it

i would execute all marxists on earth if i could

>>13073092
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rs_yvBAYyp4

>>13073101
>allth thee ithe in the world cannot kill a thwoo idea
lol shut the fuck UP you limp lipped boring pseudo philosopher manchild

>>13073092
Edgy.

>>13073107
>the Americanoid argument

>>13073084
Quite the opposite, in the 70s there were created think tanks such as the Heritage Foundation, the Hoover Institute, the Center for the Study of American Business, and the American Enterprise Institute, that were formed with corporate backing.

Came to great influence in the 80s and here we are today.

>>13073092
*all political gnostics, all religious fundamentalists, all power hungry small men and the entirety of China's population
Fixed and expanded

>>13073053
Is that real ?

>>13067391
look at all these dirty commies replying to this post
very based

>>13073127
Nah its mostly a meme of jewess fetishists. Theyre like most chicks when it comes to fucking. Merely average

>>13073120
everything i said is objectively true
zizek is useless

>>13073084
The "globohomo" you types love to discuss is 110% capitalism's fault. Marxism hasn't had an appreciable influence on the west to any degree beyond being a bogeyman. Literally all degeneration of culture is because capital seeks to dissolve it and replace it wholesale with prozac and funkopops.

>>13073147
>The "globohomo" you types love to discuss is 110% capitalism's fault. Marxism hasn't had an appreciable influence on the west to any degree beyond being a bogeyman.
What is the '68

>>13067196
>voting for your tyrants means it's all good man

Hot take: the only people who hate capitalism are the losers.

>>13073147
It certainly is, we dont have to like your faggy flavor of globohomo either though. Which is basically the point of marxism

>>13073174
Well, it's normal and not a particularly hot take if you think about it. Why would anyone who isn't harmed by a system hate said system? He has no incentive or reason.

>>13073174
95% of everyone is a loser

>>13073189
LOSERS RISE UP!

>>13073159
>tyrants
Is that what you actually believe ?

>>13072915
Quantum Kantianism is the only path forward.

>>13072823
>did you read the communist manifesto you fucking retard?
You don't have to accept marxist social policies in order to accept marxist economic policies. Ever heard of Strasser?

>>13067169

>>13073211
Marx is shit, why would I waste my time with any echo that his work could've produced? If by this day and age you haven't realized it then you are a brainlet. Both social and economic ideas are thrash

>>13073267
That's fucking brilliant. You criticise things you admittedly have no understanding of and then really think people are going to have a discussion with you about them?

>>13073127

In my experience they're a lot less prudish on the whole. Your experience may differ.

>>13072368
Lmao demonstrate that chain of logic then.

>>13073284
>read Marx
>it's thrash
>no anon you should read more marxism, marx got marxism wrong you don't understand
Oh boy. The only good thing that came out of marxism was how butthurt good old Karl was towards Stirner.

>>13072578
Look it up from a dictionary. Please. That should be concise and clear enough even for someone like you.

>>13073379
>>read Marx
So you did read Kapital?

>>13072848
We don't want to be executed for not respecting trannies

>>13067869
who's gonna tell him that they loved Beckett too

>>13073379
"reading" is not equal to "understanding" anon

>>13067196
Nice strawman buddy

>>13073548
Nobody bothers reading these verbose motherfuckers.
Not even you

>>13067871

You're that one who posted a few months ago that the contemporary young white reactionary male is now the one true revolutionary subject, aren't you? Same phrase and idea.

>>13073073
Why is it that people who spend all their time reading Adorno, Foucault, Zizek, and so on and so on, are so blind to the movements and mechanisms of ideology? Marxism isn't a boogieman, it's a disease. It's practically HIV. It does not typically kill the host culture on its own, but weakens the cultural strength so much that it becomes deathly susceptible to ideas, both internal and external, that are normally harmless. Fascism, on the other hand is like Lupus. Out of a hypersensitivity, the culture begins to attack itself. You can tell that communism/marxism is an cultural autoimmune failure, because it thinks literally everything else is fascism--it thinks every other position is an overly aggressive immune system. Communists think everything is lupus, but the thin is, it's almost never fucking lupus.

>>13074316
Low IQ post.

>>13074337
>IQ
>>>/pol/ stupid subuman nazi

>>13074337
Ideas precipitate action. The path of a bolt of lightning manifests before the lightning itself. The pattern precedes the form. Material presence is a medium of the will.

>>13074316
its good that you saved time by not reading in order to type out insightful posts like these

>>13067169
And they not only failed, they made everything worse

>>13074410
Maybe you should actually read some Foucault and Zizek.

>>13067893
No one made you watch stupid capeshit. You knew it’d be shit but you saw it anyway and paid the price with your time you stupid cretin.

>>13067391
You're right but the avant-teen cultural commies here will not be convinced. Just look every Marxist-Leftist creating art:
>Godard
>Pasolini
>Gorky
>Brecht
It's either thinly veiled propaganda or muh depression, fetishizing human relationships, puny and small, depraved, humanist to a cringe degree.

>>13073653
he isnt wrong tho

also anyone who dislikes marxism hasnt read or understand it ITT lmao

Marxism is hellscape

>>13073032
>postulation
Do you even know what that word means?

>>13072027
Why should I listen to someone who uses five words instead of two?

>Implying anyone can save us from the demiurge
We lost before it even began. Our only choice is masochism so that we may embrace endless suffering.

>>13072842
Good one, tourist.

Does only caring about my friends and family and devoting my efforts to their conception of what will benefit them while encouraging them to do the same for the people they love and care about make me a fascist?

>>13067391
this guy gets it.

>come to /lit/ hoping to find the intellectual discussion which other boards lack
>it's a bunch of Marxist/Zizek-worshipping pseuds who can't argue their position and resort to /b/-tier namecalling and who passionately believe gender is a "social construct"
Marxism is cancer. If you still believe in it, or any of the critical theory/social Marxist garbage, you're worse than far right Evangelical religitards. Adorno and all his Jewish buttbuddies were frauds too.

>>13075496
Nothing wrong with Marxism. Anyone who thinks it is cancer hasnt read the literature. and forms their opinion on it based on memes and shitposts and would probably agree with what a lot of Marxists had to say if they would actually open up a book. Stop shitpostimg and go read.

>>13075531
>and would probably agree with what a lot of Marxists had to say if they would actually open up a book
this doesn't shed a particularly good light on Marxism though

>>13067533
>>13067560
>>13067568
>>13067570
>>13067593
>>13067712
>>13067726
>>13067841
>>13072027
>>13072541
Marxism is gay and a Jewish cancer.

>>13075531
>Nothing wrong with Marxism
Yes there is. It is a fucking colossal failure and turns your brain to mush. Hitler was also right about some things.

>>13075581
Hitler was a retard. Marxists are legit intellectuals.

this thread went to shit really quickly. it's almost as if one side is swamped with twitter-verified tranny retards who haven't read marx and the other side is literally just peterstein acolytes crying about the death of western civilization. surely it must be as complex as you all claim, though

>>13075581
>>13075602
The only effective difference between Marx and Hitler is the idea of equality.

>>13075623
You're going to have to substantiate your ridiculous point, anon.

>>13067169

>posting here instead of working to death in a gulag
>posting here instead of standing in the bread line
>posting here instead of living in some ex soviet back water hell or some multi million person population work camp "city" in china
>posting here with this low tier bait..

Please op, what hellscape are you even talking about?

Wait never mind just gtfo.

Just read Critique of Violence.
really edifying stuff. Benjamin was a hell of an essayist.
although he privileges the Judeo-Christian god pretty hard by the end

>>13075496
>gender isn't social because my precious feefees tell me it isn't reeeeeeeee
you have to go back

>>13075602
Marx was also a retard. His ideology has resulted in nothing but death and exploitation, and generations of fooled pseuds.
>Marxists are legit intellectuals
In your opinion, but you aren't an intellectual.

can one of you guys that understands marx explain to me what "socially necessary" means?

>>13075627
Stripped of rhetoric, the core of both Fascist and Marxist though are "oughts". They both identify almost the same negative influences on society, and believe in similar vehicles to influence. But the Fascists, and Hitler especially, reject the ide of equality. So instead of aiming for a global agrarian utopia, they aim for a strong nation which is able to survive in a competitive landscape which will ultimately end with an apex culture. Marx, however, believes in radical equality. Instead of aiming for a national coalescence and strength, he aims for a consolidated class wjich is able to not simply dominate other classes, but sublimate them into itself. You could also make distinctions between the material and idealistic differences between them, but in practice we can see these differences almost entirely as semantic differences.

>>13075634
B-but muh Marxist (((intellectuals)))

>>13075602
If Nazis controlled the institutions followers of Hitler would also be labelled as intellectuals.

>>13075641
Gender is a function of biology. Beyond that it is absolutely an meaningless term. I don't have to go back, you're the sjw bigot who belongs on r3ddit.

>>13075627
Not him, but read Voegelin.

>>13075669
Nazis were redpilled on Jews, while Marxists are Jews/useful idiots for Jews. Not all Jews btw.

>>13075641
That something is an ideological structure does not mean it is a social construct.

>>13075602
>believing that the "intellectual" is a good or legitimate category

>>13075687
Why does anyone take "redpill" seriously. It was a fedora meme only months after The Matrix came out. When did it go from ironic to sincere? Is ignorance the only pathway to sincerity? Is sincerity simply innocence?

>>13075496
Gender is all performance. Male performance is being selected against by techno capitalist cosmopolitanism. The only thing left to see is if fascism can destroy the earth before all men are castrated.

>>13075673
Uh nope Nazis are brain dead retarded and have no discernible talent. your world view is based on memes and shitposts go read a book.

>>13075707
I sometimes think that only some sort of crazed nihilistic revolt can overcome the neo-yuppie world order. Still not sure if it's preferable to the continued existence of our species.

>>13075724
>based on memes and shitposts
>read a book
Nice. It's true Nazis suck, but don't thin you're anything different.

I think that the OP is somewhat accurate but more to the point is that this generation of Marxists saw that history really wasn't going their way, and that attempts to steer history 'their way' /really/ weren't going their way. When you read, say, Adorno the shit is rife with cynicism, pessimism, maybe even misanthropy. The obsession with fascism, the F-scale seems ludicrous to us now, or it should. It is completely alarmist nonsense. Socialism and fascism ( and other sundry ideological experiments) were rightful reactions to the Anglo-liberal order, which was then gaining and is now in complete control of our world and which any one with a heart can see was plainly heartless. You didn't have to be a Marxist to see that the world was going to shit and that a great reduction was widely occurring, but a critique of the commodity-form did give them a hand up.

>>13075732
Nope I am better than you and every Nazi retard in every way go read

>>13075679
>gender is biological because my precious feefees tell me it is reeeeeeeee
post-2016 /pol/tard detected.
you have to go back.

>>13075750
You are basically as cringey as the guy you are arguing with, I am afraid.

>>13075703
cringe and bluepilled
shut up you SJW soiboy incel stacie cuck and take the redpill.
not an argument.
obsessed.
have sex and praise kek.

>>13075756
>literal sjw
>muh feefees
Hi r3ddit. Not an argument btw.

>>13075724
>literally no argument
>g-go read Marx
Pathetic but expected. Sure, there are Marxist intellectuals, but you aren't one.

>>13075703
Its being used semi-ironically but it is also an accurate way to describe people who have broken the left wing conditioning and are able to see things as they are.

>>13075749
Yeah, the sort of brand of white ethnostate fascism that marxists love to position themselves against aren't really the potent cultural force they're made out to be. The fact that capitalists have been so quick to embrace things like feminism, LGBT, etc should point to the fact that these movements aren't capable of subverting the structures that channel capital into the hands of elites. Personally, I think that being unwilling to confront the internal contradictions of capitalism and adjust cultural practices to accommodate this massive shift in property relationships will end up fucking the contemporary right, but it won't result in the sort of world that Marx was imagining as the resolution to this "material dialectic:" it's going to be petty feudal warlords and mass death.

>>13075750
>anyone who disagrees with me is a Nazi
Typical Marxist pseud. I bet you only read books that confirm your emotional worldview.

>>13067174
People don't like Schoenberg? Plebs

>>13075768
You're trying way too hard. Go back to r3ddit, you have a low IQ.

>>13075602
>Marxists are legit intellectuals
Oh nononono

>>13075724
>its true because i say so go read marx
Every time. Marxists are low IQ cowards.

>>13075729
the nice part is neither of us get to decide!

>>13075828
But the bad part is that we have to suffer the consequences of either. Who knows maybe something exciting will happen when China stops affirming the dollar as the world's reserve currency.

>>13075833
This is true. The only strategy I see is think about who will feed you when shit hits the fan and try to shake them out of their delusion. I give it five years before everyone you personally know is completely disillusioned by the state of things.

>>13075833
Though I agree that China's willingness to devote their resources to increasing human intelligence and developing AI instead of jacking off dying lefts and whites is going to give them the edge in the long term. The fact that Chinese people conceive of themselves as Chinese and want to preserve China is entirely justified, as far as I can tell.

Wow some snobs saw mass produced schlock as crap compared to high art. What piercing insight.

Marxism is just a juvenile utopian ideology, like libertarianism. If you haven't grown out of it by 18 you're probably pretty stupid and not to be taken seriously.

What did the frankfurt school have to say about gamers?

>>13075904
Marxism is absolutely not utopian.

>>13075924
Adorno would have enjoyed well-written RPGs and despised plebeian series like CoD or whatever.

>marx is retarded, biological determinism is for real dark web intellectuals

>>13075979
This but unironically

>>13075962
Yes it is. You're 15.
>unironically caring about Adorno the hack
That explains your incompetence.

>>13075962
How is Marx not utopian?

>omg critical theory!!!
Go back to r€ddit you sjw newfag cucks.

>>13075813
hes a hack. Le GRM are the best of that era.

Not sure about the Frankfurters but I know that Marxists like Dwight Macdonald had no real issues with 'folk art' - being works that are produced by the people, free of market influence. This art is obviously low taste and vulgar, but is authentic and untainted by market manipulation.

The issue is mass-culture.

>>13072541
So you decide to create new social constructs and then force them upon people even if it they don't agree with it. Sounds nice.

>>13072775
Bill Nye is not a scientist.

>>13076035
Not an argument

>>13076590
>free of market influence
Could Marxists be any more bougie?

>>13077392
>>13072823
https://www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/transgender
Facts not feelings libtards

>>13067196
>Call everything fascism then look for proofs to comfirm your theory.
threadly reminder that this sort of ideology plunged Germany into real fascism, all cause autistic kpd thought spd was fascist

>>13067391
Simple fact of North Korea being more traditionalist than America refutes your argument

>>13078040
they're only "traditionalist" because they're poor.
>make your radioactive kimchi if that's what it takes for you to not starve!
>"omg so traditional!"
The Japs stamped out Korean culture before they started masquerading as ideologues anyways.

>>13075531
Cringe

>>13075724
Have you read any fascist literature?

>>13077967
woah! it must be true the managerial globohomo apparatus of psychiatric therapeutic power tells me so- obviously an objective authority and not biased at all! now take your pills and don't question the hegemonic ideology.

you notice American leftists and rightists are both scientistic 'rationalists' who don't realise all scientific discourse is an instrument of domination. their absolute pleb culture is unconsciously derived from internet atheist logic videos, either of the libertarian or managerial sjw trannykultmarx variety. There's no objectivity, all politics boils down to friend enemy distinction as existential choice, the will to believe. your theology is weak, amounts to nothing but a paradoxical denial of itself, muh free and equal individuals, who need to be made equal and free by the experts, who need to be made to enjoy and bask in the stupefying glow of the commodity.The sjw program amounts to a commodification of all human relationships, from emotional labour to sex work, with nothing in between, everything reduced to a contract. I resolutely believe in a traditionalist, authoritarian and theocratic order.

>>13076021
Read Socialism: Utopian and Scientific by Engels, if you want their arguements.

>>13078142
ok buddy

>>13078274
The irony is of course that there is nothing scientific about Marxism

>>13067391
The irony of this post is you fail to take into account the fact that capitalism is without morals, I agree that Marxists attacked various norms of their respective days as an attack on society at large but the irony is that all this did was help capitalism by creating new markets where before the breakdown of various norms the markets were impossible to exploit due to public perception. So from this point of view you can say both sides just helped out capitalism in the end.

>>13073053
>>13073127
My ex was Jewish and I indulged in every fantasy I ever had, and gained more due to her desire to experiment. I can close my eyes and see her gaping asshole.

>>13078886
No, you absolute dunse. The amorality of capitalism is precisely the point. A society that engages with capitalism will simply produce that which it values. The mechanics are independent of the value system. It's one of the greatest innovations in the history of humanity. But the liberal sons of the bourgeoisie felt guilty that they were making money off the poor without "fully liberating" them, and so decided to completely destroy all sense of value in western society. Capitalism can only be considered a belief system in the way we say agnosticism is a belief. The attacks against western-Christian values didn't "help" capitalism. Capitalism doesn't care. Can you not see how the relativistic epicurean morality of post-modernism has already been commercialized? Capitalism does not care what is valued so long as something is valued. This is not a "both sides fucked up and now we're stuck with something worse" kind of thing. This is a "one side used deception and deceit to destroy what was good and beautiful out of their own self-hatred and feelings of impotence" kind of thing. Marxists have betrayed the public trust, and so now trust itself is a luxury.