/lit/ - Literature

Haha I'm so happy hahaha

>>13031641
who's been crying for that ?

>>13031641
I fucking despise women.

>>13031641
Managerial gynocracy in full force today

>>13031641
>Epic win!
Cringe

>>13031641
I fucking despise women.

interpretations or truths that wouldn't be acceptable in male dominated academic fields, like classics, are now able to be explored, develop and become a focus of genuine academic rigour instead of misogynistic sabre rattling. This is good.

at the same time, some interpretations are being excluded from rigorous analysis to avoid the ire of the less cohesive wings of feminism. this is bad.

Broadly speaking this is a positive development as voices that were once starved of oxygen can now be heard. also watching the narrow-minded old-guard and these young internet based halfwits getting "triggered", to use the contemporary parlance, is bloody hilarious

toodle pip

God I'm loving this new wave of progressive posts lately

>>13031699
>interpretations or truths
stopped reading there

per-order now, i heard it's powerful

>>13031699
These new interpretations are just sabre-rattling in a different direction.

>Edith Hamilton

>>13031698
>I despise Kaliope muse of epic poetry

>>13031712
It also seems to me that they're very much tied to contemporary politics and the general mood in academia and the media. I doubt they'll hold up.

H.D. already did it

>>13031712
some are, some aren't. The fact that they can actually be considered and accepted or rejected is a positive thing. To think anything else is totally moronic and irrational

>>13031699
>YO LAQUANDASHAUNDA DEEZ WYPIPO TRYIN TUH COL'NIZE DUH EUR'PEAN EJUKKKAYSHUN SYSTM 'GAIN!!!!

>>13031721
Maybe we are just entering a new era of empathy an basic decency where marginalised voices that have been silenced for so long are finally recognized as human

>>13031721
It's little more than fanfiction with present day flavour, as you said. At best, it'll become a time-capsule of the early 21st century, but not something that could ever be considered timeless, like the works it piggybacks.

>>13031641
Epic win!

>>13031641
Yes. Don’t know why you incels are so buttblasted by the opportunity for fresh perspectives.

>>13031743
kys nigger

>>13031740
These people actively hate their fields of study and only use tgem as platforls to push the managerial ideology of the monoculture. They see culture as dangerous a bomb to be disarmed and decolonised. They fear the sublime, the elemental power of remembrance. Any kind of remembrance beyond Trump, Brexit and fucking gamergate, the marxists at least had october, 1917.Its very telling these people(and you know who am i talking about) universally regard high culture as suspect, take no serious interest in nonwestern traditions and yet, justify their idiot enjoyment of literal trash for children through the same cookie cutter intersectional discourse. Whats the correlation between cultural marxism and harry potter/dr who. And dont tell me they arent influential Mark Zuckerbergs sister Donna, happens to be the worlds top woke classicist.

>>13031710
>classicist

>>13031721
>It also seems to me that they're very much tied to contemporary politics and the general mood in academia

there's nothing new about this.

go back a couple of decades and academics would have viewed history through the prism of Marx, Leo Strauss etc etc.

The process of historical analysis does not happen within the confines of some kind of ideal, ahistorical bubble.

>>13031796
Everything just feels way more shallow and homogenized, its no longer mass politics a la marx, or a culture of relatively slow press media thats leading the way, but social media and the managerial therapeutic discourse of mass organizations

>>13031784
You're jut throwing out unsubstantial gobbledegook peppered with academic buzzwords that you think give you a degree of credibility.
Have you ever thought of studying sociology? lol

>>13031811
>feelings

what are you, a fag?

>>13031710
It's obviously terrible how many women would have been killed in the siege of Troy, but are women really so insensitive that they can't consider the thousands more men who died fighting for the ten years prior? Which is the greater hell? Do they really think we enjoy the brutality for its own sake, and not that we find brotherhood as an anesthetic against the inevitable torment we face so that women don't have to? Was not every Trojan fighting so that the women behind the walls would not know what each man had known on the battlefield each day? Do women really think that when we lament a loss in battle we weep for generals and not for them?

>>13031822
Ever noticed how fags went from being vaguely shady and taboo, less of a coherent identity than a form of sexual activity, to hey lets accept fags to hey this people are model citizens, more vituous and more progressive than you because they get fucked in the ass. They are modern day saints those fags, leftists have replaced the crucifix with a pink haired queer. Same old slave morality.

>>13031740
Relationships to the past are best kept irrational. Academic study does nothing but tarnish the classics.

>>13031699
>toodle pip
wasnt mad at your post till i read this

fuck off anglo

>>13031699
>interpretations or truths

>>13031641

Hope this makes the classics become trendy again, and especially verse drama. If verse drama were hot shit in our society I would be a Star right now instead of a nobody, which is what I am.

>>13031641
>women
>fresh interpretations
just lol

>>13031910
>t. Incel
Its nobodies fault but your own that you’ve never had sex.

>>13031893
these dykes actually think what they write is unquestionably true, thus, "interpretations of truth" is appropriate. Stop being a worthless pedant.

>>13031710
>goddesses
What the fuck? Goddesses are some of the most prominent characters in the Illiad

>>13031641
Hasn’t this already been done? Christa Wolf’s Cassandra is good

>>13031921
They're arguably the driving force behind the entire conflict.

>>13031921
>>13031938
Yeah written by a man though

What I really want to see is the classics from a black transgender perspective, too long have our culture focused on rich white cis women.

I read that shitty feminist/BLM Beowulf rewrite thing about Grendel's mom and it was unironically astounding in how awful it was.

>>13031760
>Important Male 1 write X
>Vagblasted feminist Reebot Important Male 1 rewrite it as Y
Why should I care for a whore perspective?

>>13031677
kek

>bitches don't know hildegaard
I'd need to have expectations to be disappointed

>>13031913

girls have been doing this for a while, writing about the women in the iliad & especially the odyssey (penelope). and you know butler thought the odyssey was written by a young sicilian woman. and the muse has always been a woman in all proper poetry.

it's not reinvention at all, it's (if it's any good) rediscovery

>>13031716
are we counting edith as a woman?

>>13031699
Based and untriggerpilled. This is just one moment of the dialectical life of the classics, the ridiculous pretension of modernitywill fade over time while the genuine contributions of our era to ancient understanding will be made clearer.

>>13031913
>He thinks so because, I assume, he never had sex. Because, you know, there is no other reason to despise women other than that. If he would only have touched my hole his entire perspective would have changed.

It's funny how even women treat themselves like holes, but condemn men for the same attitude towards them.

Look people, the takeaway here is, if women wants more space to write fiction they have every write to, if it's good fiction it'll hold by its own merits and not because someone happened to be born with a gash between their legs and wrote a book. That's the most disrespecting shit towards real intelligent woman, having a space not because of talent, but because of bleeding every 28 days. Christ, Imagine Simone Weil or Hannah Arendt coming to think "i was listened because i was a woman, not because i made a point". I speak this not even as a man, but as a non-retard.

>>13031670
These lesbians do not represent most women.

>>13031743
Why do you think marginalised voices are marginalised? Is it chance one group is in a position to marginalise the other?

>>13031743
>>13032277
How about first defining and demonstrating marginalization?

>>13031641
Once again I am permitted in watching the human race play the role of the jester for the sake of "love, acceptance, kindness, and happiness" the common man and every sect of woman compared to the men that stand out among commen men are now given a voice.
Oh and will they let you aware that they now have a voice, now it is no longer a game of the smart going back and forth, but a game of the corrupt try for the best way to manipulate the stupid, while the just argue and call out truths.
And it's not like the corrupt are aware all the time, the smart also too participate in manipulation, I hope for the sake of protecting any pride left in the dying idea we call the human race, that we are smited with almighty power.

>>13032251
I’m a straight white male with a hot girlfriend who I love and vice versa. You are a fat oily loser incel, which is why you hate woman. All incels are gulag tier.

>>13031920
if they think what they're saying is true what are they interpreting

what does it mean to interpret truth in Homer? what the fuck does that mean?

>>13032290
T. There's someone out there like that, so I'll act like them so I dont actually look like a loser.

>>13031743
>new era of empathy
Academia is propped up by turning students to debt slaves to prop up useless departments and dead wait bureaucracy.

>marginalized voices
These are not silent, true. They are screaming as sky robots bomb them from above while left is too busy arguing if some old book is inclusive enough.

>>13032305
*weight
should've stayed in debt slavery

>>13032279
Why would I have to demonstrate marginalisation to argue about it conceptually? Also marginalise has a fairly concrete definition, in a debate I'd agree, but you're just being pedantic in this instance.

>>13032277
If this isn't proof of marginalization, then what is?

>>13031641
I would rather read straight fan-fiction like Rosencrantz & Guildenstern than something original that the author thinks needs a piggyback ride to get read.

>>13032315
>>13032290
>>13031913
>here, let me attack you since i don't know what we're talking about.

>>13032328
I agree marginalisation is real, my question was 'is it chance one group is in a position to marginalise the other'.

>incel
>have sex
Why has it become impossible to have a thread without this garbage littering it. Memes are intellectual poison
>inb4 "incel" and "have sex"

>>13032338
mine wasn't an attack it was a lampoon if anything

>>13031641
do you know there hasn't been one translation/classical analysis/rewritten mythology by a black author

>>13031641
do you know there hasn't been one translation/classical analysis/rewritten mythology by a black author

My lige lady, generally,’ quod he,
‘Wommen desyren to have sovereyntee
As wel over hir housbond as hir love,
And for to been in maistrie him above;
This is your moste desyr, thogh ye me kille,
Doth as yow list, I am heer at your wille.’

>>13032345
not the person you're debating, but out of curiosity, what would your answer be if i told it's not chance ?

>>13032324
Well there is in practically all worldviews justified marginalization. So we marginalize the blind or insane in selecting our airplane pilots for example. I don't see ending marginalization in itself is a good. So if you criticize 'marginalization' you have to specify what you mean. Then when specified you should have to demontrate that this even exists, or we could just as well debate the horrible plight of the unicorns in bubblegum town.

>>13031641
>the female touch
nice essentialist meme you commie faggot

>>13032345
>I agree marginalisation is real
Well I don't. I only posted that image to bait for you (You)'s, I don't actually believe anyone can be marginalized in an industry where you can very easily hide your race and gender behind a pen-name. Or even better, release online under a pseudonym.

>>13031817

Nothing that sociology has produced in the last 40 years is worth studying.

>>13032406
not true. I would like to sell my illustrations under a female pseudonym, but if I were found out it would be seen as betrayal, deception, a breach in trust that I could never recover from.

>>13031657
Women’s studies majors

>>13032455
never apologize. Go on the offensive. Make a point that they couldn't have been published if you hadn't had a pseudonym. If people liked the work because they thought a woman made it, but it was not a woman, then it would clearly demonstrate that the gender of the author does not affect either the quality or perspective of the work in a meaningful way, or else it would show that women actually prefer male creators, or else it would show that this whole discussion is sexist and has nothing to do with content. Whatever the result, everyone else would be a hypocrite, and you would simply be a tortured artist.

>>13032251

Even writing "feminist" retellings of classic literature suggest such a stunning lack of self respect and basic dignity that it almost hurts to think about. No man, anywhere in history, has ever hated women as much women hate themselves.

>>13031699
>>13032222
these posts verified fact-czeched

>>13031837
I’m sure the hero “REEEES cause someone stole his favorite sex slave” Achilles was actually fighting for the honor of women and not his own personal gain

>>13032406
you really can't. this "industry" supports and dominates career writers. you have to show up to work (teaching). you have to go to events. just try submitting to a big publisher completely anonymously, you can't do it.

>>13032508
can you name what would he have to gain out of that ? also in the same line, What political power Paris had to gain bringing Helen to Troy ?

>>13031949
Who can love women more than a man though?

>>13031641
This signals the true death of Western civilization.

>>13031641

>>13032509
wow, you aren't a humble one, you want to start publishing with the big ones, huh ?

>>13032508
Can you read? The greatest personal gain of men is being loved by women. We built civilization for you. Why do you want to hurt us like this? We were only doing what you asked us to do.

name one retelling by a man of a classic work of literature that was ever paraded to this degree, or that has held permanent sway in the canon by its own merits, and not those of its source material
hard mode: no, retellings of Bible stories or religious myths do not count

>>13031913
Not him, but how is it my fault that a woman doesn't want to date a guy who's 5'4" and supremely ugly?

>>13032605
Pretty much all of Shakespeare's plays

Western men are at fault for this. You became too weak and women had to take your place

>>13032632
picasso was 5 4 and ugly

>>13032455
>I would like to sell my illustrations under a female pseudonym, but if I were found out it would be seen as betrayal

Why? Did you ever declare that you're a woman? I have a fairly gender-neutral online handle, and more often than not I was confused for a woman because of my personality, but as long as you never declare what your gender is then you're neither lying nor betraying anyone. They're the ones who made the assumption.

>>13032509
>you have to show up to work (teaching). you have to go to events.

Do you now? Do you really have to? I suppose if you want to work in the academia or become world famous, yeah. Personally though I'm more than happy to just dump my work online for free and put a donation link. Or just personally sell them on Amazon. However if your work is really good, I don't think publishers will have any problem with hiding your identity from the public.

>>13032670
This is the answer.

>>13032670
It doesn't count because everyone in Spain at the time was short as fuck, and most women didn't make their own money so they had to fuck ugly guys in order to survive

>>13032670
https://youtube.com/watch?v=1agI3u1YUjQ

>>13032680
well picasso was living in paris and both his wives were rich

>>13032705
feel like this is linked every time picasso's women are mentioned

>>13031677
i like that term

there seems to be a neverending supply of cool wine aunts for mid level management positions

>>13031710
IT WAS DONE LITERALLY TWO THOUSAND FOUR HUNDRED YEARS AGO

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trojan_Women

>>13032717
Fine, if I were a world-renowned artist I might be able to score some tail. But "just be famous" isn't really practical advice

>>13031641
>rebooting the classics
Just fucking make it stop!

>>13032787
i wasn't giving you practical advice, i was saying you're wrong

>>13032831
No, I was right. It's possible to not be able to fuck due to circumstances beyond your control

>>13032777
Translations of The Trojan Women

James Morwood 2000 Prose
Howard Rubenstein 2002 Verse
Ellen McLaughlin 2005 Prose
George Theodoridis 2008 Prose
Alan Shapiro 2009 Prose
Emily Wilson 2016 Verse

just jew my shit up

>>13032841
only if you're a eunuch

can someone post the zizec ideology located meme? thanks

>>13031641
>"Epic win!"
>2019

>actually am lined up to profit from this shit
>not sure if want anyway
It gets really old really fast and they just sound bitchy and aggressive, like babby first edgelord phase. I wish we could all settle down and drink tea together, but now these "academic" women are not just happy they finally have equality, no, now they want to retroactively punish the males. I wish it didn't have to be this way.
>>13032255
>That's the most disrespecting shit towards real intelligent woman, having a space not because of talent, but because of bleeding every 28 days.
tfw. exactly my thoughts, friend. but they just don't get it. fucking turbo-brainlets larping as big brains.

>>13032538
>can you read for me daddy?

Achilles wanted fame (and sex slaves) more than a quiet life and also was butthurt that his boy lover died.

>political power

Did I say everything’s about political power you illiterate? Paris couldn’t keep it in his pants so he caused the death of thousands of men and women.

Good. I think it will only help once women remove all the big and mean words from Finnegans Wake, and replace those with words of nurture and tolerance.

>>13031838

>Same old slave morality.

imagine thinking this take has even a shade of originality or uniqueness and that sharing it brings absolutely anything to the thread. im sorry the basedchugging left makes u feel so insecure but its kind of pathetic to see. masturbate elsewhere manlet.

>>13032888
i believe it's a pun

You guys get your panties in a twist too easy

>"WAAAAAAAA....I thought academia was going to be a safe-space where my preexisting prejudices and ideas would be confirmed. I don't like having to deal with divergent opinions"


where have I heard that before?

Face it. You faggots are of the same ilk as the SJW's Feminists etc that draw your ire.

Get fucked losers

>>13032670
Picasso wasn't ugly and also he was the greatest painter of the 20th century. Anon is not.

>>13032645
Shakespeare best plays are adaptions of the Renaissance equivalents of airplane novels.

>>13032978
>he thinks academia is open to divergent opinions
It's not they they're part of the discourse that's annoying. They've been part of the discourse since the 1960s. The problem is that they want to control the discourse. Kids today are far more likely to be assigned James Baldwin than they are Homer or Aeschylus. And if they are assigned classics, the works are always interpreted through a feminist, post-colonialist, and materialist critical lens.

>>13033007
No they're not. People say shit like Shakespeare was at he Michael Bay of his time, but if you read the original intro to the first folio it's clear that even people back then thought that he was high brow and difficult to understand.

I think it’s interesting in the sense that it gives an alternate perspective to things. I would like to compare the classic with the reboot to see what changes, and to see if the change was actually warranted.

>>13031699
bad post

>>13033007
Ovid and Plutarch are airplane novels?

>>13033018
This. Way to keep plebs in check, O cleverest student.

>>13033018
Learn to fucking read. The fact that Shakespeare was adapting trash doesn't mean that his adaptions were trash.

>>13033007
plutarch wrote airport novels?

>>13032851
Women are increasingly hypergamous and their standards for appearance are a lot higher than men's. The data has shown that women think that even the average man is unattractive. This effectively means that if you're below average in looks and don't have a shit ton of money, you will most likely be rejected by most women.

>>13033041
The Roman tragedies aren't his best plays.

>>13031641
>Are we about to witness a Golden Age of fresh interpretations of classical history that has been crying out for millennia for the female touch?

No. The person who wrote this seems very unaware of Anne Carson who has been doing it for years now, and stuff like Sappho, Lady Murasaki, Taoism or well... lit in general,I think. People have been writing and rewriting classics for centuries from the female perspective. This "new" trend means nothing.

>>13033046
A lot of his stuff was based on Plutarch and Holinshed. Only a couple of his plays were based on Italian garbage

>>13032963
ohh lol I see. that is dad-joke tier.

>>13031641
>four generations of NEET women educated at elite universities
>finally all tenured, virtually run whole depts.
>yessum we taking it back!
it’s all so exhausting. if men succeed in academia today it is because their female peers are truly shit and more on par with that cripple from Stoner

Stop obsessing over identity politics. There are multiple threads a day that are just "look what x is doing!"

>>13033092
Men are willing to financially support women in ways that women aren't willing to support men. This is the problem. Men have to get real jobs while women can spend all of their time being activists.

>>13033062
Women were denied education and their opinions were undervalued in society for centuries. The 1950s was not that long ago historically speaking and even then women were expected to be housewives. It's no wonder, then, that such a preponderance of male writers exists in the canon. We are approaching a new era, women are increasingly pursuing humanities degrees to the point where they are starting to outnumber men. If things go on like this women will be the majority contributors to the future of the canon.

>>13033078
Only the roman plays were based on Plutarch and they are not his best. Holinshed is king of the airport history section.

>>13033102
all politics are identity politics.

>>13033058
Coriolanus, Antony & cleopatra and Julius Caesar are definitely some of his best plays

>>13033105
>If things go on like this women will be the majority contributors to the future of the canon.
If this happens to be the case, it's almost certainly going to be due to the financial support of men. Literature isn't a money-making endeavor anymore, it's a hobby, and it's something that women can do from home while the men they marry slave away performing signifianctly less fulfilling work. The future for men is indentured servitude.

>>13033105
Who cares? Academia is dead.
(45:00) in particular
https://youtu.be/lcJZCVemn-4?t=2701

>>13032880

>>13033111
identity groups/ ideological groups

>>13033151
If men don't organize this will continue to go on. Women form groups for literally everything, while men sit around and moan online while nothing gets done. Form a pro-classics lobbying group in your university and fight back.

>>13033168
You mean /pol/ finds some obscure tweet to complain about for literally everything. Ive no memory of coming across any of these "groups" in the real world

>>13033105
What's your point? I am not talking about politics at all, why are you? It does not matter if a 51% majority or a 90% majority that does science is female or male. Science is science. While literature and art in general are subjective, literature without any trace of science is absurd and meaningless. The scientific method does not care about gender.. Would you care if the scientist who discovers a cure to cancer was male/female or would you care that finally someone cured cancer? Why would it, then, matter for literature?.

Look at how many great female authors there are: Lady Murasaki, George Eliot, Emily Dickinson, Sappho, Djuna Barnes... , and even beyond that, how many great authors (regardless whether male or female or something else) wrote books with great women in them: Spenser, Tolstoy, Shakespeare, Chaucer.... Or female authors who wrote fantastic male characters: Emily Bronte, George Eliot, Ursula Le Guin....

What I am saying is that this is not something new, not even for contemporary times. As I said, Anne Carson is the best example.

Again, what is your point, why are you bringing up politics?

>>13033188
>obscure tweets
You mean tweets with tens of thousands of likes

>>13033168
>fight back
Cringe. Men have dominated literature because they have oppressed women. Now women are able to contribute equally we have to "fight back?"

>>13033162
lol thanks but it's not this one

>>13033205
The patriarchy is a construct that inappropriately applied intentionality to a division of labor that existed entirely due to the material conditions of the time. There's no such thing as the oppression of women.

>>13033102
this.

you never discuss literature. Most of /lit/ after 2016 is threads bitching about some fringe univeristy types.

In being averse to identity politics you've allowed it to dominate the board, and most probably significant parts of your personal life and sense of self. You don't even do anything particularly effective at diminishing it. You respond with shitty ad hominems. You don't even bother to, for example, read wilson's translation of the Odyssey and highlight what's wrong with it. at best you'll copypasta some guff that someone else wrote on the internet that you've skim-read. you're a bunch of self-congratulating spastics that deserve to have your worldview fucking obliterated.

>>13033200
that's literally nothing

>>13033205
Nobody with any trace of intelligence reads Shakespeare, Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, Lady Murasaki, Proust, Joyce, Virginia Woolfe, Djuna Barnes, Emily Bronte, Jane Austen, George Eliot, Thomas Wolfe, Melville, Milton, Blake, Christina Rossetti, Lewis Carroll, Kafka, Flaubert, Pushkin... or someone else because they were male/female, rich/poor, heterosexual/homosexual, religious/atheists or something else. Anybody who does that for such reasons alone is a pitiful and shallow person.

>>13033231
It's not just college kids, it's ruined the intellectual culture.

>>13033139
Anthony and Cleopatra maybe, other two, definitely not.

>>13033010
In the 60s, seeing the world through a leftist lens must have felt genuinely edgy and subversive, 68er kiddies might have even believed revolution was just around the corner and everything was going to be an endless communist orgy of free love and complete equality. no mom and no dad, no church, no stuffy old books, we'll just smoke dope and listen to rock music.

The boomers kiddies 'grew up' for lack of a better term the lot of them forgot about their radical dreams, you are the wealthiest generation in human history, buy a house, go golfing. Though a few of them stayed in academia stewed up in their ressentiment.

Leftists found unlikely allies in the corporate sector, the federal government, the military and the growing managerial bureaucracies. They all had a vested interest in getting their noses into people's lives. society needed a new ideology that could create social cohesion and push commodities, now that religion was universally considered old hat.

The left is no longer subversive but repressive. For better or worse, they no longer think much about achieving utopia, rebelling against consumerism and conformity or even 'sticking it to the man', its all about combating the omnipresent threat of bigotry and nazism, through consumerism and conformity of course. is far more In its decadence, leftism has begun to resemble christianity. I don't think today's panicky bourgeoisie leftists would be down with transgressive counterculture icons of the 60s and 70s, people like Burroughs, Zappa, R Crumb, Debord, Manson, Johnny Rotten ... far too problematic. thats why I find Baldwin so repulsive, cause I understand they are trying to feed me a decaffeinated Christ substitue. The heroic worker and the revolutionary have been replaced by the victim and the snivelling queer. Want to control people? drag them down to your level.

The leftists may keep the pretense of being subversive, but i doubt even they believe it, he guardian and the NYT may tell you Beyonce is more punk rock than any given set of white guys with guitars but they don't even believe it. subversion would mean going against the politically correct corporate monoculture of consumerism and conformity, and I think we can do it, that's why i think content creators like MDE/Sam Hyde, and psyops like pepe and the order of nine angles are so important, using the gestures of the counterculture against the left. most white kids are sick of this shit, they are aching for danger, rebellion, a sense of purpose, something sublime. Mom and Dad have supplanted by the progressive state and the shitlibs on disney owned outlets like vice, setting up the stage for an oedipal rebellion against unjustified pseudo parental authority. the rebellious 60s, the fascist 40s and 30s, the still pretty white eighties and ninetees, all equally verboten and off limits, dark ages. how about we mobilise those memories against the very globohomo machine that threatens to destroy them?

>>13033353
>people like Burroughs, Zappa, R Crumb, Debord, Manson, Johnny Rotten ... far too problematic.

Dead on. Back in the day people applauded them for being radically in-tune with their Id or the soul of the times. Now Crumb (although he mocked himself and culture itself through sardonic wit and scathing self-parody) is hated by leftists.

I fucked hate with a passion what the leftists are doing in the arts. They are fucking stuck up conservatives, censoring everything they don't like and won't fucking admit it. Churchill was right, the fascists of the future are the anti-fascists. I might as well move to France at this point. I'm not expecting people in the arts to be mentally stable but any semblance of radicalism nowadays is "intimidating" or branded some buzzword and destroyed en mass. Counter-culture, at least in the UK, is socially-accepted rebellion which defeats the purpose.
These lesbians are going to bleed on canvases forever and pretend it's orginal every time.
Crumb saying "Nigger" is equivalent to genocide to these people. Fuck them.

>>13033353
You give internet counterculture too much credit. Pepes are not ideological statement, Pepe is a mere contrarian, not revolutionary. Pepe will post gore, lolicon and hitlers, as well as inspire school shootings all because it offends mainstream sensibilities, not because it's some sort of cohesive revolutionary answer.

Sure, phonies will always try to dress it as ideology and coopt it - like CIA turned counterculture of '69 into neoliberalism, and like Trump and Peterson are doing now with alt-right.

That is, until something more robust rises up to power than mere phony clowns. Nigger exterminating sovereign corporations with private armies? Hitler 2.0? Then maybe.

Epic win!

>>13033248
Obviously but it is undeniable that historical patriarchal influences have affected the ratio of men to women in the canon. Women were denied education, treated as inferiors, told that they are only to be concerned with raising a family, held in lower regard concerning intellectual matters (so much so that they were denied even the vote). This clearly had a huge effect on how many women wrote books. Now these fetters have been broken a lot of women are flocking to study English/humanities and will undeniably produce a greater proportion of canonical literature than they had in the past.

I'm almost certain that Flannery O'Connor, Dickenson and Emily Bronte have set the bar too high for modern women to even compete with.

>>13033919
Women had like 30 years to produce canon of any merit, yet they have very little to show for it. I don't think women are subhuman either, imo it's just matter of incentive - why bother when orbiter does everything for you. This could be solved by installing some sort of culture which actively shuns now pointless chivalry (cue feminist screeching if you remove privileges).

There's also the narrow bell curve IQ distribution to a point female geniuses are about as rare as black male geniuses.

>>13031913
your bait is too unoriginal to work

>>13033919
the only thing that is undeniable is that historically among that top 5% of the population that got a higher education, overwhelmingly men had that opportunity. this says nothing about the inequalities within the remaining 95% of people, and it certainly doesn't justify the patriarchy memes.

>>13033955
>Women had like 30 years to produce canon of any merit, yet they have very little to show for it.
1. women have produced great literature 2. 30 years is not enough for there to be equal representation of men and women in the canon which has been developed over thousands of years

>>13033989
1. you can cherry pick anecdotes, yet they will never matter when talking aggregates
2. pick media which doesn't depend on historical baggage. screenwriting, for instance.

>>13033981
classism excluded the lower classes
sexism excluded women
simple

>>13033919
Not neccessarily true, some of the best women's writing has come from times that women were not expected of much.
What women fail to understand is that for the most part this is purely a class issue.
Rich women were taught how to write and speak well among other things and the majority of poor women did not because their father couldn't afford their education often and they had children far quicker than those educated women.
For the most part even the most plebian women of today couldn't write even if they wanted to, because it's not necessary.
You speak as though writing is the main goal of all women. I would argue both plebian men and women are unable to do so because of work and responsibility.

>>13034000
so you would rather have been a serf than a serfs wife?

>>13032184
>whores are the first to write derivative fiction inspired by Homer
???

>>13034009
you probably are a serf mate

>>13034023
sweety

>>13031641
wake me up inside
(cant wake up)

incel containment thread

>>13033919
Which culture are you exactly talking about? Take the Heian period for instance, even though it was "patriarchal", everything we know about this period and its literature is almost exclusively written by women. Your argument is a pseudo-mathematical invention and generalization that has very little, if at all, to do with literature. Why women? Why not slaves? They were oppressed too. Why not female slaves? What women are we talking about, from which period? Why generalize all women when obviously it's impossible and unfair? What about poor people? What about people with different beliefs and religions? What about children? What about people who broke the law? What about people with different mental states? There are many people who broke out of their oppression and made it. This has nothing to do with literature itself and literary works. Yes, it is fair to assume that more women because of the increase of life quality will write, but this does not mean that literature will be better or worse, nor does it have to do anything with literature itself but with the literary profession and its politics, which, again are not literary works and therefore not the object of study for literature but for politics, sociology, history.

Also, the literary world canon is not anti-women!

>>13034044
>>13034003
>>13034044
>>13033981
Most of the pre-modern period, aggregate male literacy far surpassed the female one (merchant class, religious class all being male dominated most of the time). Being able to read/write pretty much the only education you need to write.

>>13034044
>muh what aboutism
this thread is focused on women's issues. of course poor people and the like were also oppressed.
>Yes, it is fair to assume that more women because of the increase of life quality will write, but this does not mean that literature will be better or worse
If more women are getting educated and pursuing English/humanities degrees and the wider society is more accepting of female writers/philosophers then more women than before will write and as a consequence they will produce more masterpieces(not the same thing as better masterpieces). it's just basic probability

>>13034128
>If more women are getting educated and pursuing English/humanities degrees
These correlate very poorly with being able to write popular works. You can't teach originality, either you have the talent or you don't. Majority of successful writers had no "English degree". Their mom taught them language, and it's apparently plenty enough. There are of course there are great female authors, but its not very likely their number will increase.

>will produce more masterpieces
Funny you mention that. *Mediocre* pieces is actually where women already dominate the literate field, overwhelmingly romance fiction and mystery. Increasing quantity further will indeed raise the quality a little, but the correlation is not linear, it's diminishing results - you'd need to flood the market with 10x more schlock in order to raise quality further 1%. And of course the market is fully saturated with mediocre female romance fiction authors already.

>>13034124
Being able to read/write has very little to do with being able to produce literature that stands the test of time.

Again, even IF the chances were higher, explain then, why is it then that the only literature from the Heian period is written by women (and rich women btw) when the whole court of patriarchal-poetry-obsessed men could read/write but have NOT produced anything comparable to the Tale of Genji by Lady Murasaki. It is not groups, but individuals that may or may not belong to a group that produce worthwhile literature. Literature is not judged by the amount of output or necessarily the people who write it but by the quality. Heidegger and Ezra Pound's politics were highly questionable and awful, but they produced important works, despite these views.. Also, a huge chunk of (epic) poetry, fairy tales, religious/mystical texts, and literature in general were orally "written" and have anonymous authors. The authors themselves are not as important as the work. Your assumptions are all based on a pseudo-mathematical/statistical claim with no real relation to literature but politics. Best wishes.

>>13031699
based retarded moron

>>13034199
>Again, even IF the chances were higher
They weren't. As stated earlier in the thread, most of pre-modern period, literacy was 10:1 in favor of men.

>>13034199
>Being able to read/write has very little to do with being able to produce literature that stands the test of time.
Who cares? History was supremely biased against women anyway. Feminists like to harp at history, and they're right, but remain suspiciously silent as for why women systematically lag behind in modern period where no cultural restrictions exist (and in past 5 years, there's even strong bias for women, see the hugo awards drama).

>>13034282
There are reasons why ideologies exist (meaning -> in some aspects they are very true and necessary). Women did not have it easy throughout history. I'm not denying that. But, as I mentioned too, there were many other groups and there are many subgroups when it inside the groups too (what about homosexual /menwomen, poor men/women, lonely men/women, etc....?). However, the mere acknowledgement that history and politics suck has nothing or very little to do with the literary work itself. In fact, any literary work that has no quality outside of the area of politics, has very little merit and chances to stand the test of time (because it is probably propaganda). Also, culture, art, science.... cannot be brought down to a single power struggle in politics. The motivation is obviously present, however, the output and any creation from these disciplines when they are of true value, are not political in themselves but have universality.

>>13032574
>>13032542
based

>>13034363
>(what about homosexual /menwomen, poor men/women, lonely men/women, etc....?)
It's far too difficult to measure, as these groups are far harder to count, compared to simple gender and ethnicity. Modern Intersectionalism is often exploitative of this "what about some (statistically insignificant group)".

Progressive stack is all fine and dandy, but one has to draw a line when the good intentions start to breed resentment from out-groups. By running to oppression olympics to extremes argued for virtue of minority-ness (gays, immigrants, race relations) OR past oppression (women), as opposed to merit. Left ideologues call it reactionary, but don't understand why the reaction happens. It's not because reactionaries want to retain past status quo, but because progressives had overcompensated the past oppression, creating a new one in the process.

tl;dr: Incels are product of feminism which pushed too far creating new form of oppression.

>>13031699
>>13031740
>>13031743
>>13031913
>>13032290
>>13032978
>>13033105
>>13033919
>>13034039
have sex

>>13034530
I respect your opinion anon very much. But see, that's the thing. Now, we have moved on to talk about politics and ideology, and not about literature. All of this has nothing or very little to do about art. And my point is that we should not do that, if we are going to look at literature from a perspective that favours one group because of their unjust treatment, why should we stop there then? Is this the purpose of art/literature then, to push the group one belongs to? I hope/believe that it's not but some kind of metaphysical bullshit truth/knowledge.

>>13031641
Will we ever have a warrior society ever again? I’m going fucking crazy

>>13032251
This was obviously written by someone who has never had sex and is angry about it
>>13032632
Yes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pWrZQZb4BM

>>13034695
Sorry for the freudian /pol/ slip. I don't think "what about X people" is very good idea as theres not much data reliable from that perspective except for the significant groups.

Better you can do is by measuring subgroup co-factors within the well known large groups. For instance, depression (sometimes linked to suppression of homosexuality in the past) often leads to strong artistic incentive.

A happy person goes out and enjoys life, a depressed one sits in the basement and vents/paints/invents. This trend is frequently attested by the artists themselves. And not just art - in STEM field, and IT specifically, nerds became good with computers because they were social outcasts and felt powerless. Programming computers brings sense of control (at least computers do as I say), a lot of folks in the field can attest to this too. Overall I think a lot of "why groups X does this and Y doesn't" can be reframed in terms of motivation, as opposed to mere environment (patriarchy! enlightenment! etc).

>>13031641
Epic fail!

>>13031641
Epic win trolled epic style

>>13031670
they really are the niggers of genders

>>13034702
Unless you’re noble born it wouldn’t do you much good

There's literally nothing wrong with this.

>>13031760
>>13031913
>>13032290
>>13034039

>>13031699
>interpretations or truths that wouldn't be acceptable in male dominated academic fields, like classics
kek

I don't see why not. It's not like more ink spilt about these tired old topics overwrites and negates what came previously. No harm done. The least we can do is come at them from every possible angle.

>>13035547
>fan edits of classic works
I imagine that's like simple english edition of 1984 with all the trigger words removed?

>>13031699
based dubs. high IQ take

>>13031641
Gee, what will they say?

>>13031641
>ebin win!
kek

>>13031699
>Broadly speaking this is a positive development as voices that were once starved of oxygen can now be heard.
quantity < quality

>>13031893
That looks hilarious, but really he just was waiting for the clapping to start.

>>13031913
incels > femcels, prove me wrong

>>13032251
>Sailer’s Law of Female Journalism: The most heartfelt articles by female journalists tend to be demands that social values be overturned in order that, Come the Revolution, the journalist herself will be considered hotter-looking.

>>13032841
all cels are volcels

>>13033102
>Stop obsessing over identity politics
just stop looking at fascists! they will magically disappear like they always do!

>>13033188
>obscure tweet
>SCS Annual Meeting (2019)
lol, it's like you aren't even trying anymore

>>13033231
>some fringe univeristy types
name one academic space not ruined by the "fringe"

>>13033919
>Obviously but it is undeniable that historical patriarchal influences have affected the ratio of men to women in the canon
sounds like a conspiracy theory desu

>>13033989
there are more educated people alive in the last 30 years than in all history of mankind, there is also selfpublishing and internet.

>>13037156
quality > quantity

>this but unironically

It sucks that a bunch of lefty women do it, but the reality is that there's lot to gain in working on fringe perspectives.

In effect, one would have to try to negate oneself and write from a new perspective. Since guys can't do that, women take the job and create a perspective alien to the guys. Of course, these women are also not doing the job of dissociating themselves form ideology and identity - but at least in this roundabout way we can read something new. If your reaction to that is being contrarian to it due to your reaction stemming from your identity, then you're doing it wrong.

>>13037156
Yet the quality has dropped with the rise of the inherently feminine service economy. I think they might be related.

>>13037243
>new is good
lol, go read some random generated machine text

>>13037243
>then you're doing it wrong.
Dropped
People just writte and support anything that gives them more power. Of course women are gonna imply into their ideology that gives them power and men the contrary one for the most part.
Negating your power just for the sake of something new is a spook and a pure ideology that doesnt care about you either way and favours someone else. Its declining of life.

>>13031710
Do these bitches believe they are Mary Shelley or Liliana Bodoc just because they were born with a vagina? Publish something worth reading before sperging out about privilege and all those buzzwords.

>>13037281
I have pussy and money. I'm as good a Stirner scholar as they get - but I don't need muh power. I live a comfy life. I just want to see something interesting on this world now.
Yes, it's not that new equals good - not at all. But nothing new also means nothing good - or at least nothing interesting.

>>13037321
>but I don't need muh power.
Yes you need, power is not only more pussy, money and physical power. There are various ways of will to power, the persuit of knowledge is one of them for example, self-discipline is another.
>But nothing new also means nothing good - or at least nothing interesting.
I disagree, the new is always happening and comes naturally as a will, you dont need to force yourself into it.
You have to take things in a more cynical way. True altruism is impossible and everyone acts accordingly to their self-interest and will to power. Its the main reason why Nietzsche always said that hierachies will always prevail and any efford to destroy them is a mere revolt of the weak to place themselves at the top but masked as some altruistic way.

>>13037243
>Stirner scholar
>appreciates it when history is revisited and rewritten entirely through the lens of ideology and spooks without a glimpse of irony
I highly doubt it.

>>13031837
Retard! You're projecting modern sensibilities onto ancient times. Mycenaean Greece was not America

>>13037413
everything is America

>>13031641
Wouldn't mind this if she actually just told the Iliad with an emphasis on the women's perspectives. But it won't be that. Calliope will be a written as a 21st century woman. Hard pass.

Isn’t that just postmodernism

>>13031837
>we
great to hear a bronze age warrior's take on this issue

>>13037413
I guess you're right. It's not like there's a whole sequel about how assblasted a man gets trying to get home to shag his wife.

>>13037531
I don't know if you've read the Iliad, but it's pretty much the start of the book.

>>13037383
I don't believe you can write non-ideologically. I also don't clinger to the past. So why would that be doubtful

>>13031699
>Broadly speaking
>starved of oxygen
>narrow-minded
> halfwits
>contemporary parlance
>bloody hilarious

ANYONE WHO HAS NEVER BEEN IN BATTLE HAS NOTHING TO SAY ABOUT THE ILIAD.

>>13033105
>Women were denied education and their opinions were undervalued in society for centuries.
If their opinions were undervalued, how come they were the ones setting trends? Do you know what "salons" were, for instance? Do you know the influence of people like madame de lafayette on her time? Do you know the origins of courtly love?

>>13037680
Meant marquise de pompadour, though lafayette was still influential too

>>13037576
homer was never a soldier

>>13031641
FUCK WOMEN AND FUCK GREEK CLASSICS

>>13031710
>all female
>haha eat shit men
Yep, this is gender equality if I’ve ever heard of it. Good job women, you did it

>>13037451
The thing is that there's plenty of literature that deals with women's perspectives. The 19th and early 20th centuries saw a substantial boom of this type of literature. Many of the greatest authors to have ever lived are 19th century female authors.

Why do these people act as though they're doing anything new?

>>13038162
>male fragility

>>13031641
No. We’ve had this for what? 50 years now and nothing yet.

>>13032290
>I’m a straight white male with a hot girlfriend who I love and vice versa.
>and vice versa
>I'm a gay black female with ugly boyfriend who i hate
Not much of a surprise t b h f a m

ITT. faggots getting mad at some translating something
can you be more pathetic? it's irrelevant if woman want to translate everything again, it'll be propably worse translations, you're not going to have to read it if you don't want to

>>13038321
it's not a translation it's a novel

>>13033105
Women marry up, women get degrees, men don't, women stop marrying men, society collapses. The state of women in a nutshell.

>>13038631
Educated women overwhelmingly breed managerial gynocracy - they're great at organizing crowds, but can't produce systematic wealth (STEM) to fuel civilization. But it turns out you only need so few managers, 1 manager per each worker is far too much.

So feminism generated an educated class of redundant pencil pushers who provide only zero-sum to negative overhead value (bureaucracy), lovingly called "service sector". These women waste so much time doing that they're for all intents and purposes infertile - won't marry worker bees - car repairman is "lower" class than a female accountant, though it's clear which one is more beneficial to society. And men who are "above" accountant are far too rare.

>>13032373
Based and Chaucerpilled