/lit/ - Literature

Also interested.

>>13011256
did they? it was the medieval emissaries of the catholic church who brought to great britain, in addition to the whole corpus of sacred history, a continental university system based on the greek and latin classics.

>>13011256
>Neo-Pagans agreeing with libtards about muh dark age memes

Yep. Nothing new to see here.

>>13011909
>our fuckups are really the fault of pagans!
Powerful argument.

>>13011960
is it actually about the dark age?
the greeks had a dark age as well.

Someone post the medieval monk screencap
and please stop drinking the antithetical cool-aid; all the best thinkers of christianity and pagandom have always sought common ground and preservation of the ultimate and unconditional truth, beauty, etc. don't be a pedestrian that buys into the hyperbole of ideologue historians trying to fulfill a publishing company's sale's quota

SO FUCKING CRINGE

the christian LARPERS on this board are something else, i can't fathom what type of retard posts shit like @13012057

>>13011901
A dark age or the destruction of a way of life doesn't mean people have to revert back to licking on boulders for slimy sustenance. Yes Christians also had libraries.
>>13011909
>90% of all classical literature has been lost
>every classical temple and shrine
>the classical arts was smashed
>the academies were closed
>philosophers were dragged in-front of tribunals and/or killed
>philosophical contemplation and debate was outlawed(yes philosophy with certain unquestionable axioms is not philosophy as all, but theology)
>people were quite literally going into peoples houses to find heretical art and books to be burnt
>not a dark age
>>13012057
>all the best thinkers of christianity and pagandom have always sought common ground and preservation of the ultimate and unconditional truth, beauty, etc
patently false. quite the opposite actually.

The book is overall well sourced though some important affirmations she does not source and I was not able to find any information, like her claim that the Christians killed during Roman games was actually a couple dozen. That being said neopagans crying about this happening in history seem to forget that Caesar not only burned the Library of Alexandria but also massacres thousands of Celtic druids, from whom we might have lost more knowledge. If it wasn’t Christianity it would have been another cult that would have taken over, also degeneracy was rampant by the end of the RE.

>>13011256
The classical world was shit anyway

>>13011256
God I hate pagan larpers, I'd rather my country become Muslim majority than have these faggots take over

>>13011256
I'm pretty sure we benefited from that

Book on the same topic, taken in the opposite direction from the work you've posted. Would be good to read to have more of a nuanced view on the subject. Otherwise I would suggest staying away from general history books like the ones in this thread and focus more on specific regions and time periods and find works on that. If you want to get a real understanding avoid any book that pushes a generalized thesis. Good for entry level, but anything beyond that it's detrimental

>>13013136

how very inauthentic of you

>>13013136
Don't worry. Pagans aren't fertile, they are a byproduct of our industrial scale disintegration. We are dying.

>Contemporary Europeans hate past Europeans, eradicate their achievements by burning their monuments, literature and art
As such, European heritage is destruction of European heritage. I'd rather focus on what made Europeans ever build anything to begin with, having such an accursed fate.

We could have been exploring space by now. Christianity brought everything that is wrong in this world. There would be no racism, homophobia, binary genders, and everyone would get along if it wasn't for their divisive dogma.

>>13014101
Anyone posting that graph is a confirmed brainlet.

>>13013136
>the spiritual semite shows solidarity with another brand of spiritual semitism
How very surprising.

>>13014101
Does anyone else feel really bad when you have to debate with Christians, and in this case have a clear upper-hand against them? I generally just feel terrible when arguments of mine crumble another's worldview however slightly, knowing that I've just made that person's day a bit worse and they're now somewhat sadder because of what I said to them.

Religious faith is a very personal area, and therefore delicate in nature, and it always makes me feel bad when I ask or tell a religious person something that might leave them feeling worse off than before I said it.

Does anyone have a solution for this? Should I just not be debating them at all? That's generally what I've decided now. But Christians are also often quite abrasive and rude to deal with in the first place, so I guess I myself benefit from this approach too...

>>13014553
Atheists are such insufferable retards that it's not even clear if this is bait.

>>13014101

>>13014553
I enjoy destroying christcucks. Insufferable faggots.

>>13014602
>>13014609
>Not recognizing pasta

>trials by ordeal
Keep your pagans shit out of my face please.

>discord trannies sowing discord on yet another divide
You'll never be a real female

Christians really lash out when you attack their sacred cow.
>we wuz preservers and shieeet
No you weren't.

Not a single fucking recommendation in the entire thread. So this is the power of /lit/, huh?

>>13015986
I know. All this off the charts damage control

>>13014101

>>13016120
Musk really has an obsession with overworking and burning through his slaves.

>>13016120
What an idiot.
There’s a labor surplus. We each need to wrk less hours

>>13016130
He's talking about the personal effort you need to put in to personally have an impact, like he has had. Not that all his tesla factory workers need to work 80 hour weeks. Dumbass tripfag

>>13016155
It’s a stupid headline.
Musk didn’t invent the rocket or the electric car. As Ana artist, it would be a joy to dedicate my time to developing my craft eighty hours a week. I don’t know what he’s doing but a managerial position

>>13016174
I think Musk mostly does engineering stuff, I remember some clip of him saying that. He is a literal autist that actually enjoys that i guess

>>13012286
Imagine believing this to be real
What a life

>>13016406

>>13016406

>>13016479

>>13016406
One of the most well known examples of book disappearing would be Celsus, and given his observations of Christians that's hardly surprising.
It's actually infuriating to think about all the books we don't even know about and yet are lost forever.

>>13011256
"Christianity, Book-Burning and Censorship in Late Antiquity" by Dirk Rohmann would probably be interesting to you.
>>13016515
We actually have papyrus of Pliny, Plautus, Cicero, Seneca, Virgil, Ovid, Lucan, Livy and many more that have been scrubbed and the papyrus was used to copy things such as the homilies of Chrysostom or Augustine's work on the Psalms.

>>13012286
>A dark age or the destruction of a way of life doesn't mean people have to revert back to licking on boulders for slimy sustenance. Yes Christians also had libraries.
how can the book be about the 'destruction of the classical world' though if it was the church alone that preserved it (and made it as important as it was re our education)?

>>13016642
This is the same argument when Christians say they preserved the Norse myths. Preserving from whom, yourself? Shouldn't exactly be a source of pride.

The Library of Alexandria is believed to have had 500k volumes. The early Christian monastic libraries(after conversion) usually had around 20 volumes and medieval libraries had around 500 or so, and the greatest Christian library in the entire Christian world by 1380(library of the Sorbonne in Paris) had 1728 volumes, 300 of which they had lost through loans.

>>13016515
>It's actually infuriating to think about all the books we don't even know about and yet are lost forever.
lmao it's not like you'd read those books if they were available.

>>13016914

>>13016914
>you wouldn't personally read every book written by Romans so it's a good thing they were burned
The absolute state of spiritual semites

>>13012286
>philosophers were dragged in-front of tribunals and/or killed
>philosophical contemplation and debate was outlawed(yes philosophy with certain unquestionable axioms is not philosophy as all, but theology)
>people were quite literally going into peoples houses to find heretical art and books to be burnt
>not a dark age
This did not happen.

Are you trying the imply that the destruction of pagan ""art"" and "literature" wasn't a good thing?
You idiots need to read the bible and fucking BEG for forgiveness from the Lord. Go to your local Catholic church, and say you need forgiveness and to learn the ways of Jesus Christ.
Don't worry, I'll pray for you, no need to thank me either. Just go to Church.
I did, and I went from bluepilled porn addicted cuck, to a wise and redpilled Christian man. You can to, I believe in you.

The "dark" ages were based.

>>13016995
Threats and emotional blackmail don't work here

>>13016189
he's a sophisticated con artist

>>13017006
Well I fucking hope you're ready for when Judgement comes you degenerate pagan larping faggot

>>13016936
They could've been lost any millions of ways along the way from their authors till today. Getting I N F U R I A T E D over that is pathetic, are you mad about books that have been lost in house fires from the last fifty years? Are you FURIOUS that Gogol died before he could finish Dead Souls? I can't imagine what kind of hunched over goblin you have to be to have a chip on your shoulder from something that happened 2000 years ago.

>>13016999
*dies of the plague*

>>13017025
>haha why do you care that someone burnt your house down? I mean it could’ve burned down on its own anyway lmao get over it faggot

>>13011256

>>13014553
I literally wrote this, lol. Why would you save it, let alone repost it later? I'm new to 4chan, and find the people here so strange. This is the second time an earlier post of mine has been left on another thread, by someone else. I presume you're mocking me, and that's totally fine. But I was personally being sincere there, and still agree with the statements I made. I don't get into debates with religious people anymore :P

>>13017019
>More threats
>If you don't believe in the god of the jews you're automatically a "degenerate pagan larping faggot"

>>13017050
Because your message has all the nice qualities for pasta

>>13014101
I don't know if you're employing sarcasm, but Christianity engendered many problems into our world that we still struggle against today, including hatred of homosexuals. And it's a major problem, which today's Christian generation only continue to perpetuate. If you believe homosexuals are going to Hell, can you at least let them do so in peace, instead of making their life a Hell as well?

>>13016721
Who painted this? It's very unique.

>>13017033
>some books of second rate philosophy from thousands of years ago and the other side of the world
>your house
You're going to have to stop taking historical events personally man, it's just not worth it.

You are fucked in the head my friend, your hate will be your undoing.

>>13016515
Funniest thing is that Celsus would've been forgotten if not for Origen.
Rougier reconstructed Celsus' book from Against Celsus, a Christian refutation of his arguments.

>>13016982
Quite literally did.

People who blame Christianity for the loss of pagan knowledge underestimate the complete clusterfuck that was Late Antiquity. I'm not even going back to previous instances of destruction, such as Sulla burning Athens or Jewish rebels burning Alexandria in the Kitos War, the Crisis of the Third Century, along with Gothic and Persian invasions of Greece, Anatolia and the Levant saw massive destruction of cities and disruption in the functioning of the Empire.

There is no reason to believe that all such knowledge would fare better without Christianity, specially when you consider that the reason why the religion became popular in the first place was because the Church was the only institution able to provide governance and security amidst widespread societal collapse. I

>>13017091
>haha it like didnt happen to you personally maaaan who even cares

>>13017029
I was gonna say that.

>>13017087
Tommaso Laureti

>>13017115
Where it is to blame, it should be blamed. No sleep should be lost over this, but no goodwill either.

>>13017115
The importance of the wars and invasions for the destruction of knowledge is highlighted when you realize that Ireland largely escaped the Dark Ages, it was a centre of knowledge and scholarship during the period, producing men like John Scotus Eriugena, Dungal of Bobbio, Dicuil etc, who, while not quite on par with the Greeks, were way ahead of anything at their time. The difference between Ireland and the rest of Europe is that the island was mostly devoid of the massive wars and invasions that rocked the Roman world at the time (being outside the Roman world itself).

The Irish Golden Age ended with the appearance of the Vikings. And yet no pagan blame them for destroying the libraries of Iona Abbey and other Irish monasteries whose education produced the Neo-Platonism of Eriugena.

>>13017115
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitos_War

>In Cyrenaica, the rebels were led by one Lukuas or Andreas, who called himself "king" (according to Eusebius of Caesarea). His group destroyed many temples, including those to Hecate, Jupiter, Apollo, Artemis, and Isis, as well as the civil structures that were symbols of Rome, including the Caesareum, the basilica, and the public baths.

The 4th century Christian historian Orosius records that the violence so depopulated the province of Cyrenaica that new colonies had to be established by Hadrian: "The Jews ... waged war on the inhabitants throughout Libya in the most savage fashion, and to such an extent was the country wasted that, its cultivators having been slain, its land would have remained utterly depopulated, had not the Emperor Hadrian gathered settlers from other places and sent them thither, for the inhabitants had been wiped out."

>Lukuas led the rebels toward Alexandria, entered the city, which had been abandoned by the Roman governor, Marcus Rutilius Lupus, and set fire to it. The Egyptian temples and the tomb of Pompey were destroyed.

>In Cyprus a Jewish band under a leader named Artemion took control of the island, killing tens of thousands of Cypriot Greek civilians. The Cypriot Jews participated in the great uprising against the Romans under Trajan (117), and massacred 240,000 Greeks.

Why did I never read about this, and why the destruction of Alexandria and its temples by the Jews is never considered as an hypothesis for the destruction of the Library of Alexandria?

Based, woude burn the classical fags again

>>13017137
You plainly don't actually care though.

>>13017096
By their fruits shall ye know them.

I've seen the fruits, AND I WOULDN'T RECOMMEND IT.
>>13017115
The destruction by these forces were accidental to particular circumstances in time.

There is reason to believe that they would fare much better without Christianity, because Christianity systematized the destruction of the classical world and you can read about it all in the writings of absolute top-tier Christian saints(I point this out to make sure people understand that it wasn't preached by some wacky semi-heretical Christian once or twice). This generally does not happen, especially if you're conquered by what will become a tiny tiny minority of the ruling class, like what happened when migratory tribes conquered Roman territory. Even when major empires conquer a foreign people, they rarely systematically destroy it's culture, the druids and possibly Carthage was really the exception to this rule for the Romans.

There is nothing to imply that the Goths or whoever would have conquered the Empire without Christianity, that they would so systematically destroy it's culture, arts and literature in a similar way that the Christians did.

>>13017077
Faggots can burn in hell and sodomites are not to be tolerated.
Yea they can do whatever they have free will why don't they do the same courtesy to me an all me to hate them. If they where born faggots I was born a homofobe

>>13017029
>He is afraid of death
Kek

Always amusing to see so-called leftists siding with the aristocratic pagan culture of the senatorial elite of Rome instead of the working-class, poor followers of Christian preachers who looted temples so they could better feed their flock.

I guess they think slave-owning is fine as long the master is pagan and sacrifices goats to curse their enemies.

>>13017331
Are you stupid? The whole point of leftists disliking religion is that it's an easy way for people to check out of real problems in their life. Mind you that China made all religion state controlled, not just the one you believe in.

>>13017331
>you must be a leftist to take issue with the destruction of classical culture

>>13017356
No one actually cares about it, it's just a good cudgel to use against contemporary Christians.

>>13011256
Remind me again why we even know about the religions and cultures prior to Catholicism? Oh right, it's because of the Church keeping records of it.

I'm sure these same people who cry crododile tears over the destruction of a bunch of religious statues in the 5th century and the burning of papyrus about ceremonial magic would celebrate the destruction or artworks they associate with "white supremacy", such as the statue of any pre-WW2 political leader of European ancestry or the books of "dead white male" authors.

Christians were just the SJWs of late antiquity.

>>13011901
>Greek and Latin classics

Oh look something from pagans.

>>13013123
>Degeneracy

Doesn’t exist. Just your /pol/tard lingo for things you don’t like.

>>13014602
Prove God exists

>>13016995
God isn’t real.

>>13017436

>>13017449
That's a pretty decent shitpost. Christians probably fall for it too.

>>13017449
>Le hat meme

Prove God exists.

>>13017387
>They kept records of the things they obliterated lol

I’m sure the Nazis would keep records of all the Jews they gassed after winning World War 2. And?

>>13017364
>it’s impssoble to actually care about anything you’re all just persecuting ME
the spiritual Semite strikes again

>>13017230
>you don’t care because I said so h-haha owned

So can anyone mention the fact that the Christians also destroyed all the Aztec literature?

>>13017394
>Christians were just the SJWs of late antiquity
big thought

>>13017517
Never heard of that one.
I'm not even surprised.

>>13017557
A significant amount of post-conquest literature exists but the amount of pre-conquest literature could be counted on hands. The wealth of Aztec literature and poetry was burned for heresy. Same for the Mayans.

That's right, faggots, we smashed all those statues and burned all those books, and we'd do it again in a heartbeat. I'm not ashamed of that, as a Christian. We destroyed them because they were wicked and sinful and they deserved to be destroyed. Pagan Rome was justly annihilated, and we'll annihilate the secular West soon enough.

>>13017387
Based Catholic Church for saving some of the knowledge that preceded them from... ehm... themselves.

>>13017725
You'd have to stop licking nigger toes for that.

>>13017745
Also shoutout to the hundreds of native African religions obliterated by Christianity and Islam

>>13017482
>3rd century versions of this thread get burned
>some autist 1500 years later: WHAT THE FUCK I CAN'T BELIEVE THOSE FAGGOTS WOULD DO THAT FUCK YOU MOM I'M NOT GOING TO SUNDAY SCHOOL MY PEOPLE HAVE BEEN PERSECUTED
There are thousands of superfluous papers on JSTOR that you nor anyone else would bat an eye if they were deleted. Guaranteed at least 90% of what was burned in those days were either Christian heresies or anti-Christian polemics, which who the fuck cares about? You? Do you really care about any of that? We've got plenty of it now, who COULD care?

>>13017764
>who COULD care?
Historians

>>13017764
I oppose the destruction of literature on principle.

>>13017829
Don't bother, he's desperately trying to damage control

>>13017764
Are you Chinese?