/lit/ - Literature

this is a fact

>>13005980
c’est vrai

>>13005980
um

how did he do it?

lmao that's Charlie Kelly bro

>>13005980
*laughs in Chaucer*
dude isn’t even the best English poet

Dude looks like a dark sorcerer

>>13005980
Impossible, as he didn't write the Poly-Olbion

>it's gonna be another Dante vs Shakespeare thread

>>13006024
>Poet
He said WRITER. As a whole, though I wouldnt be surprised if you were functionally illiterate if you think Chaucer was >>13006024
a better writer than Shakespeare

Why's Dante wearing a faggot earing and a middle-aged woman haircut?

>>13006184
Dante was a trans woman

>>13006168
... Ok.... if Shakespeare isn’t even the best English poet, which is what I said, then it naturally follows that he’s certainly not the greatest writer, which is the “clarification” that you actually thought necessary... since poetry is a speciality within the general craft. so if he’s not even the greatest in his speciality... no, indeed, he is not the greatest in general. very complex stuff, i know.
it’s always the overcompensating brainlets that are so supercilious.

>>13005980
Why the earring?

>>13006013
lol nice nose Luigi

>>13006184
He was sexually ahead of his time

>>13005980
>best writer ever
>known for having written the equivalent of movie scripts of his time, not even real
literature
Anglos are funny.

>>13006221
Shakespeare was a playwright primarily not a poet. Very complex stuff i know.

>>13006243
Is this a real post? Shut the fuck up you ignorant retard, you know literally nothing.

>>13006243
his plays are considered poetry. it’s what differentiated him from other playwrights of the time. this is like, extremely basic and widely known. like even at the elementary school level. embarassing post.

>>13006264
>his plays are considered poetry.

>>13006255
Eh at least im not the faggot raising his blood pressure for a japanese hentai posting forum. Get help.

>>13006267
correct......... i’m sure this is the point that you want to turn it around and start moving towards “i’ve been trolling all along” but you should really just stop posting, not to mention breathing

>>13006275
They're plays not poems dude, or is this that meme where a streak of piss is a poem if you let it be.
Some monologues are close to poems sure but they generally need the full context of understanding of place and character for full effect, because they're plays...

>>13006293
How are you real? How did you actually find yourself debating so authoritatively something you know literally nothing about? What in the fuck is this?
Do you know what poetry is? Do you really not know that his plays were largely written in fucking VERSE? This is mindboggling. I hate that people like you exist.

>>13006293
based
>>13006316
cringe

>>13006316
>Do you really not know that his plays were largely written in fucking VERSE?
Still not poetry

>>13006035
>The Poly-Olbion is a topographical poem describing England and Wales.
>topographical poem
>t o p o g r a p h i c a l
>p o e m

>>13006329
>It was written in verse poetry but in fact is not poetry
I genuinely hope you die.

>>13006338
The way in which you read a text that is a poem is completely different than how you read a text that's a play. It's not difficult to understand.
If someone read a poem out on Star Trek it doesn't make Star Trek a poem even though some of the text takes up the same form

>>13006342
>poem = lyric poem
Read Aristotle you pleb.

>>13006342
You’re disgustingly dumb, and one day you’ll realize it.

>>13006264
>it’s what differentiated him from other playwrights of the time
No it didn’t

>>13006347
>Poem in Greek is poem in English
Aristotle can suck my cock

>>13006342
lmfao dude this is the craziest thing i’ve ever seen, you’re not just objectively wrong but it’s actually extremely confusing how you can even come to be so wrong about something so basic. but you actually think you’re totally in the right and utterly superior. so strange to see.

>>13006316
It's called Dunning-kruger effect, my friend.

>>13006355
No he can't because he's dead. BOOM BRAINSHOT

>>13006316
>"movies are literally just novels, they're written in prose!"
you shouldn't be allowed to graduate high school.

>>13006342
No no, repeat after me.
Shakespeare wrote in verse. Verse is poetry. Shakespeare wrote poetry.
Don’t try to be clever and look at it from what you imagine is a savvy angle. No. Just repeat it until it clicks.

>>13006357
continuation: actually I don't even know who's right and don't even care, I just wanted to mention this effect.

>>13006367
....... what on earth do you think you’re saying lmfao insane

>>13006372
>Shakespeare wrote poetry
He did, they're called Sonnets. He also wrote plays

>>13006385
sonnets aren't strictly poems either

13006387
>I'M VERY SILLY

>>13006385
Lmao yeah you know what Sonnets are? A specific genre of verse. Do you know what Shakespeare wrote his plays in? Verse. Do you know what literature in verse is? Poetry.
I’m not wasting any more time on you, you stupid fucking waste of breath. I’m mad that I wasted so much to begin with.

>>13006397
His plays weren’t all verse

>>13006372
>>13006397
I think I agree with him. He wrote plays in verse and prose

>>13006415
His plays weren't all not all verse

>>13006422
They were in the sense they had meter for the most part which is enough to qualify

>>13006424
Oh wait I'm agreeing with you, got mixed up by that retarded phrasing

>>13006424
>can't keep up with multiple negations
LOL

>>13006420
there’s nothing to disagree with dude about, it’s literally not debatable. it’s been the established, uncontroversial and common sense view for hundreds of years that Shakespeare’s plays are poetry. anyone disagreeing is either retarded or woefully ignorant.

>>13006424
Iago’s lines are prose

>>13006430
Its hard dude

>>13006433
graves said we can’t consider shakespeare’s plays poetry & no one argued the point

>>13006387
What possible reason could you have for thinking that?

>>13006441
>anyone disagreeing is either retarded or woefully ignorant.
not debating you about this dude, the sky is blue, shakespeare’s plays are poetry

>>13006445
sometimes the sky is black

>>13006445
Why does this site say this then?
>This site has offered Shakespeare's plays and poetry
http://shakespeare.mit.edu/

>>13006445
>shakespeare’s plays are poetry
They're not though, they're plays. The fact you have to refer to them as Shakespeare's plays should make this obvious

>>13006442
same logic as with
>>13006473

>>13006473
Shakespeare’s plays, written in verse poetry, are not poetry, because they’re plays.
This is actually something you believe.

>>13006482
>Shakespeare’s plays, written in verse poetry, are not poetry, because they’re plays
Yes

ANON SMART
DRYDEN DUMB

>>13006485
Don’t bother with an IQ test.

>>13006482
>>13006479
Isn't the definition of poetry in this context "a collection of poems"
So for example the sonnets are poems therefore they are poetry but the plays are not poems.

>>13006485
Then by the same token:
Shakespeare’s sonnets, written in verse poetry, are not poetry, because they’re sonnets.

As we see, you’re retarded.

>>13006501
No because if you talk about Shakespeare's poetry people will understand you're talking about his Sonnets. If someone asks you what your favorite Shakespeare poem is and you say Hamlet you'll look like a fucking retard

>>13006507
If you responded with a specific soliloquy from Hamlet, most reasonable people would accept your answer and that would be the end of it.

Stop autistically misunderstanding how language works.

>>13006529
No they'd say "that's a monologue not a poem you fucking idiot"

>>13006530
Make me

>>13006507
Don’t obfuscate. I presented this simply and cleanly.

Shakespeare’s plays, written in verse poetry, are not poetry, because they’re plays.
Exactly so! you say. Can’t be both.
Shakespeare’s sonnets, written in verse poetry, are not poetry, because they’re sonnets.
Well ackshually!

Just shut the fuck up. You’re very wrong and you’ve been shown it to your face.

>>13006530
language is a demonic entity from outside space time eating us alive to feed its nascent AI world-gods

>>13006545
A sonnet is by definition a subset of poems. Plays are not

>>13006532
>t h a t ' s a m o n o l o g u e n o t a p o e m

>>13006561
more like The Two Nonces

Homers Epics also aren't poems by the way

>reading shitsmeare
yikes

>>13006565
more like “Ulysses (N.B not a poem)”

>>13006560
Cool, doesn’t change the fact that a play literally written in poetry is poetry you impossible brainlet.

>>13006567
that's true, they're folk songs

Actually nothing is a poem. A poem is a state of mind that exists somewhere in that airy space between a rhyme and a dandelion. It wasn't until this thread that I actually figured that out.

>>13006635
lmfao

>>13006635
https://www.uni-due.de/lyriktheorie/texte/1833_mill1.html

>>13006635
A poem is how a text is meant to be approached

>>13006545
If you're going to use the word "poetry" with the same exact meaning of "verse" then what's the point of this word?

>>13006635
a poem is if there are 4 lines of text where the first rhymes with the third

Bill is good, but he's not the GOAT.

>>13006601
So what's the poetic effect of telling a character to [exit stage right]

>>13006661
Poetry is not always verse, but verse is always poetry. Very common sense.

>>13006684
>verse is always poetry.
Not in the case of plays, or mnemonics, or advertisement slogans

>>13006688
>Not in the case of plays
We’ve been through this
>>13006545

>>13006699
So is "Finger Lickin' good" a poem?

>>13006684
>>13006699
legitimately don’t bother dude, it’s clearly hopeless.

>>13006704
not verse to begin with

>>13006684
Divine Comedy is a poem (poetry)
Shakespeare's plays are poetic (not poetry)

>>13006709
Divine Comedy is written in verse, and is therefore a poem (poetic)
Shakespeare’s plays are written in verse, and are therefore poems (poetic)

Think really hard about it.

That isn't Allah

>>13006722
How do you know? Have you seen his picture?

>>13006721
>implying this rhymes

In sooth, I know not why I am so sad:
It wearies me; you say it wearies you;
But how I caught it, found it, or came by it,
What stuff 'tis made of, whereof it is born,
I am to learn;
And such a want-wit sadness makes of me,
That I have much ado to know myself.

>>13006708
It is actually, it follows a obvious metre
fin * ger / lick * king / good /

>>13006726
... that would be called blank verse.

>>13006721
>plays are poems
Never go full retard

>>13006727
>It is
no

>>13006735
No it is. KFC is a poem by extension therefore

>>13006734
You’re participating!

>>13006721
>Shakespeare’s plays are written in verse
Not all of them, only certain bits and monologues. There's a part in Macbeth where all a character says is "What, you egg?"

>>13006738
>it is
no

>>13006742
How is Finger Lickin Good not a poem, explain that to me

>>13006745
in what way would it be

>>13006741
>Not all of them, only certain bits and monologues
>only certain bits and monologues
Lmfao come back when you’ve actually read Shakespeare you brainlet nuissance, he wrote largely in verse with very occasional deviation, not vice versa.

>>13006747
It expresses an emotion in an aesthetically pleasing series using innovative language
Finger
Lickin'
Good
Its like a more refined version of a haiku

>>13006726
>>13006731
This exchange had me rolling, dudes in here are so dumb lmao you actually had to introduce him to the concept of blank verse fuck me and then just the silence after like, huh
lmaoooo

>>13006739
See pic related
source: https://books.google.com.br/books?id=KY_VCgAAQBAJ

>>13006750
I've read Shakespare alright, you cunt. His stuff is like a fucking screenplay but with the occasional poetic scheme. It's fucking dialogue with the occasional moment of eloquence. It's not all written like a poem.

>>13006763
>It expresses an emotion in an aesthetically pleasing series using innovative language
no

>>13005980
Shakespeare should be /lit/'s favorite since his writings help children with autism

>>13006770
Yeah-yeah but there's a rhythm in how they talk and that means it's a poem!!
Never mind that this rhythm is only ostensibly present in THE FUCKING PERFORMANCES

>>13006763
>Its like a more refined version of a haiku

>>13006770
>>13006776
I didn’t care about your typo tryhard, your post was retarded enough without it.
You can’t successfully act like you’ve read Shakespeare while completely mischaracterizing his writing, it’s not debatable that he wrote largely in verse. Stop replying to me.

>>13006777
Eh yeah, why do you think they put it on all their boxes
And if something contains poetic verse then it is a poem. So KFC is a poem

>>13006774
See wikipedia related https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority
Pulling random nobodies with hot takes out of your ass doesn’t alter the common sense and long established view.

>>13006788
>Eh yeah
Eh no

>>13006791
>argument_from_wikipedia

>>13006774
Are you the same dude that was going on about how the Odyssey is actually a novel? Getting similar vibes with the ridiculous arguments backed by obscure books.

>>13006797
not that anon but it is.

>>13006794
Yeah cute but the link was solely to mock you, the concept of Appeal to Authority exists beyond Wikipedia, I assure you. And I don’t doubt that you didn’t know it.

>>13006791
How do you suggest that we settle this if we can't use a reference?

>>13006797
No, I'm not.

>>13006787
Hamlet act. 3 sc. 2

>>13006805
There’s nothing to settle you unbelievable retard. Here’s the situation.
The sky is the sky, the tree is the tree, and poetry is poetry.
Here’s you: Nuh uh, here’s some contrarian I dredged up that says the sky is the ground, the tree is a dildo, and a square is round.

No. Just shut the fuck up. Your redditor smarminess with your “source” and your insistence on making a debate out of common sense is beneath me.

>>13006815
Fuck off brainlet a play is not fucking poetry. Stop trolling.

>>13006815
>your insistence on making a debate out of common sense
I'm not the only one here arguing with you. Actually I got here when the debate was already going.

>>13006825
Yep, a play isn’t poetry because it’s a play and a sonnet isn’t poetry because it’s a sonnet.

Shakespeare was invented by and for the Chinese.

>>13006836
I was responding specifically to your post actually, but way to draw suspicion to a lie that you hadn’t even told yet.

>>13006838
A sonnet is by definition a poem. A play by definition has no necessary relationship whatsoever to poems

>>13006856
>A sonnet is by definition a poem.
depends on the definition

>>13006856
videogames can be poems, too, you demented troglodyte. sex is also a poem to nature.

>>13006856
O for sure, except when said play is written in verse, which is always poetry.

Amazing.

>>13006863
>verse, which is always poetry
It isn't though, thats why they're different words

>>13006877
>thats why they're different words
prove this causality

>>13006856
it’s literally as simple as

1 verse = poetry
2 Shakespeare wrote his plays in verse
3 Shakespeare’s plays are poetry

not one of these three easily digestible points are debatable. but you’re tirelessly debating them. it’s beyond brainlet, you’re some sort of actual rock.

>>13006877
lmfao
yes, again, we’ve been THROUGH THIS

Poetry isn’t always verse, but verse is always poetry.
That’s why they’re different words.

>>13006884
>verse = poetry
Nope

>>13006882
Slogans are verse but not poems

>>13006890
>>verse = poetry
>Nope

Lmfao thank God I’m not you

>>13006849
Why are you the way you are? Going back to your previous post. You're acting like the definition of "poetry" is as simple as the definition of "sky". You want to say that your definition is common sense and the right one and provide only your authority.

Show that the way you use the word poetry is the right one and most accepted.

>>13006890
>Slogans are verse but not poems
not a proof
not even close
you might be retarded

Most overrated

He was not spiritual
He was not philosophical
He was not deep
He was a mediocre poet

Is he even top 50 for best poets? His sonnets are awful. He wrote good plays, thats it.

>>13006900
Shut the fuck up retard, if you want to prove that verse isn’t poetry then go ahead in that utterly dumbshit pursuit, otherwise stop pontificating in reddit

>>13006901
So you're saying any language that takes up a structured rhythm is a poem, like Finger Lickin Good

>>13006919
>you're saying any language that takes up a structured rhythm is a poem
no
did you pass elementary school?

>>13006356
you didnt prove him wrong. shakespeare wrote plays, not poems

>>13006900
>Show that the way you use the word poetry is the right one and most accepted.
This is the sort of thing I was referencing when I said you insist on making debates out of common sense. I’m not proving to you that verse = poetry. Because I can’t!!?!! Sure lmao. Fucking sophists.

>>13006927
So you agree, not all verse is poetry

>>13006936
>So you agree, not all verse is poetry
please learn how to read before posting

>>13006928
>shakespeare wrote plays, not poems
you’re actually dumb enough that you think they’re mutually exclusive, so you have that going for you

>>13006942
So you have no objection and agree. Therefore containing verse alone does not make something identifiable as poetry

>>13006946
Poems don't have stage directions Anon

>>13006949
You’re actively rejecting the definition of verse.

>>13006946
poem: a piece of writing in which the expression of feelings and ideas is given intensity by particular attention to diction (sometimes involving rhyme), rhythm, and imagery.

his rhythm was terrible. he wrote plays ,not poems

>>13006958
Finger Lickin Good does have metrical rhythm

>>13006955
Yeah this is the second time you’ve posted this, at first I laughed at it because I thought it was ironic, is this actually a point that you’re trying to make???

>>13006949
So you just make things up. Therefore you shold kill yourself.

>>13006967
Yeah

>>13006963
>his rhythm was terrible. he wrote plays ,not poems
just when i thought the thread was maximally based already

>>13006965
The definition of verse is that it is poetry. Whatever fruity ways you choose to extrapolate beyond that is up to you. But you’re objectively wrong that verse =/= poetry.

>>13006946
plays = verse = poems = poetry
Basically all words mean the same shit in your universe. Might as well not have words.

>>13006963
Cool, you’re flat wrong, sorry. Shakespeare objectively wrote in verse which is objectively poetry. Learning to deal with being wrong is part of growing up.

>>13006981
>The definition of verse is that it is poetry
Nope, the definition you provided has no mention of poetry in the definition. Just in the synonyms which can be and usually are imperfect synonyms

novels are poetry

lmao plays arent poetry, retards. I bet you think trannies are women, too.

>>13006991
>Shakespeare objectively wrote in verse
Except when he didn't, which was often and inconsistent and relient on readers interpretation of theatrical cadence

>>13006982
Not even close to a coherent or cogent point.
A play is a play, we all know what that is.
Verse is something a play can be written in.
Anything written in verse is a poem.
Poems are... you know, poetry?

You’re just saying words, shut the fuck up.

>>13006999
>Anything written in verse is a poem.
Nope

>>13006996
>Except when he didn't, which was often
Nope. Once again flat wrong. Nothing more I can say really.

>>13006991
He lacked rhyme and wrote plays, not poems. Are novels 'poems' too in your brain? What about film scripts?

>>13007003
Reminder you could literally write an instruction manual for a lawnmower in verse expressing absolutely no emotion or significance in registry. All verse is, is a reoccurring pattern in a series of words

>>13006992
>Nope, the definition you provided has no mention of poetry in the definition. Just in the synonyms which can be and usually are imperfect synonyms
Has no mention of it! Except where it does... But that doesn’t count! Because *I* say so!
Huh I guess it really do be like that, my bad bro

>>13007018
Synonyms are not definitions. They're just words that are sometimes but not always used interchangeably

>>13007014
>He lacked rhyme
t.barbaric

>>13007014
>He lacked rhyme and wrote plays, not poems
Rhyme isn’t necessary to verse, he often wrote in blank verse. Your unfamiliarity with this is hilarious. And once again, poems and plays are not mutually exclusive. You continue to have no argument and yet continue to post. You continue to have no intelligence and yet continue to live. Couldn’t be me!

>>13006999
>he thinks Shakespeare plays are poetry because they rhyme sometimes

>>13007033
The moment something has to be arranged in a live theater with directions, parts, costumes and different actors exchanging dialogue. Often with no metre at all involved in many lines.
What you have on your hands is not a poem

>>13007050
If only that were what I said, ever, wouldn’t that be convenient?

>>13007050
who are you quoting

>>13007026
Verse is a known synonym and, simultaneously, characteristic of poetry. Look it up anywhere. Brittanica, Wikipedia, look it up in obscure learnéd books. It’s an established fact. You’re just wrong. Thanks for playing.

>this is supposed to be a poem

>>13007033
>poems and plays are not mutually exclusive.

plays are not poems my friend

>>13007066
>there are exceptions to the rule
Wow, BTFO

>>13007069
Read Aristotle.

>>13007069
Incisive and insightful.

>>13007073
>dialogue in a play is exceptional
They're full of dialogue like this. This is literally just the first few lines of Hamlet
Almost like they're not fucking poems but plays

>>13007080

>>13007080
>>dialogue in a play is exceptional
who are you quoting

>>13007092
lmao owned, that last sentence is so perfect too funny

>>13006999
>>13007033
Let's say a write a musical. A musical contain songs. Is the musical as a whole a song?

>>13007092
>the nobles typically speak in Iambic pentameter
Except when they dont. As another Anon stated there is a difference between a poem and something which contains poetry or poetic elements

>>13007108
>Except when they dont
You mean... the exceptions?

>>13007066
shakesfags BTFO

>>13007108
>there is a difference between a poem and something which contains poetry or poetic elements
Don’t you have better things to do than whine obtusely about such semantics?

>>13007107
*I
*contains

>>13007107
No, but because the musical largely contains songs, it can be called a musical work. And because Shakespeare’s plays largely contain poems, they can be called poetic works.

>>13007076
be insightful and tell me why you revere shakespeare, he just wrote plays which are equivalent to movie scripts.

>>13007113
An exception is one line in a thousand. Not a significant amount of stage time.

>>13007127
>be insightful and tell me why you revere shakespeare
That’s not the debate, but go team anyway amirite lmao

>>13007133
you know there's a reason why ophelia's line start indented like that right?

>>13007126
>And because Shakespeare’s plays largely contain poems, they can be called poetic works.
There we have it. You agree with us. They're not poems, just poetic works

>>13007140
delimit the poems

>>13007133
>An exception is one line in a thousand
Hm, your subjective definition is awfully convenient for your argument. Meanwhile the objective definition fits perfectly, and objectively proves you wrong. Hamlet is largely written in verse. Episodes not in verse are therefore the exception. Stay wrong and mad.

>>13007126
>poetic works
Which is precisely what I said a while ago

>>13007140
>There we have it. You agree with us. They're not poems, just poetic works
Lmao you actually think that there’s a difference. This is what you’re reduced to, when already I thought your stupidity was irreducible.

>>13007140
>>13007151
lmfao please tell me this isn’t more than one retard seizing on these semantics, a poetic work is a POEM. how are you this fucking dumb

>>13007157
You have lost sir. Keep your honor and leave now

>>13007166
You think a poetic work... isn’t a poem... do you think these words just look similar lmao kill yourself

>>13007165
Why won't you concede?

>>13007182
Its too late based bro who isn't me. He's gone too deep

>>13006890
>>13006936
>>13006949
>>13006992
>>13007003
I refuse to believe that all these posts, and the many of the same ilk that preceded it, aren’t all the work of one insanely dumb anon. It’s too painful otherwise.

>>13007216
What isn't a poem? Not him btw

>>13007216
>A human is made of atoms
>Everything made of atoms is a human
This is literally you right now

>>13007133
you know there's a reason why ophelia's line start indented like that right?

>>13007240
Just an exception

>>13007231
No, it’s literally not, that’s literally a random false equivalence, but I’m sure you felt clever making it.

>>13007319
no

>>13007322
he’s been doing that the entire thread, just this sort of pithy wordplay that has no actual substance. or he’ll try a gotcha with a word he doesn’t understand and be confused when it’s synonymous with the word he thought he was wrong. like i said earlier, a very strange case of a literate rock.

>>13007342
>>13007322
>Logic is just a dirty trick!
Are you a woman or something

>>13007346
>Nuh uh!
another substantial retort

>>13007346
who are you quoting

>>13007342
Anon, do you not understand what logic is or what?

>>13007359
do you not understand what a logical fallacy is or what?

>>13007363
Anon, do you not understand what logic is or what?

>>13006342
>>13007346
>>13007359
LOGIC
How DOES he do it, the absolute logiclad?

>>13007366
>I repeaded mysewff XD
You consistently meet my expectations.

>>13007375
no

>>13007369
You're talking to more than one person

>>13007375

>>13007363
Something doesn't become a "false equivalence" just because you don't like it undermining your argument. That has to be displayed if it can be

>>13007397
Atoms comprising humans is not comparable to verse comprising poetry.
Your extrapolation is that since atoms comprise humans, everything comprised of atoms is human. But this is not comparable to verse comprising poetry, since verse can’t comparably comprise “everything” the way atoms do. This constitutes a false equivalence. This should be common sense, in the same way that a play that is written in verse being a poem should be common sense. You should be sensing a theme.

>>13007415
>since verse can’t comparably comprise “everything” the way atoms do.
I see no reason why not. Certainly as has been demonstrated Shakespeares plays are somewhat comprised of verse and somewhat not. As opposed to poetry which is nearly always comprised entirely of verse

>>13007419
>nearly always
gottem

>>13007419
>I see no reason why not.
I know you don’t, that’s the problem. Let me know when you see a skyscraper comprised of intangible verse.

>>13006993
Some are. Most aren't.

>>13007427
So you agree they are equvilent in the terms of the arguement but remain steadfast to your position that verses aren't physical atoms. OK

>>13007436
if all lyric poems[1] are poetry all novels are poetry

[1]if english wasn't retarded It'd just be ‘lyrics’

>>13007438
>>13007427
I knew you would respond this and therefore typed this out beforehand. The skyscraper jab was obviously tongue in cheek, but I fully expect that to be lost in you. The analogical equivalent to the atom comprising a skyscraper for verse would be, say, to comprise a novel. But as soon as that novel were comprised in verse it would be an epic poem; meanwhile, the skyscraper composed of atoms is just a skyscraper, it is unchanged by its being comprised of atoms. This is the false equivalence.

>>13007415
>comprise everything the way atoms do
But this is false though

>lots of things aren't made of atoms. Light and other electromagnetic waves are an obvious example. Individual protons, neutrons, and electrons don't constitute atoms until they're combined.

>>13007444
Irrelevant nonsequitur, I was illustrating his own point, which was nonliteral, kill yourself etc etc

>>13007447
How is this a non sequitur you retard? You called a false equivalency and gave that as a reason. A reason which is FALSE which destroys your whole argument

>>13007451
Not interested in helping you understand

>>13007442
>if all lyric poems[1] are poetry all novels are poetry
This is Monty Python witch trial tier logic.

>>13007465
no

>>13007444
>>13007451
taking him literally is the nonsequitur “retard”. his point is that an atom can comprise “virtually everything” in the physical world—yeah O no he didn’t include “virtually”, the horror—but verse can’t comparably comprise “virtually everything” in literature.

>>13007473
Don’t, I’ve already made my point and it’s irrefutable, getting sucked into their brainlet semantics is only going to let them feel like they still have some form of argument. That’s why I ignored it.

>>13007473
>I'm wrong but I'm still right anyway because I say so

>>13007473
>but verse can’t comparably comprise “virtually everything” in literature.
It can very easily in poetry though but clearly not in plays, which are not poems

>>13007491
This doesn’t refute this >>13007443
and is just more brainlet obfuscation. I repeat that if a skyscraper is comprised of atoms it remains a skyscraper, if a novel is comprised of verse it becomes a poem. This is the false equivalence.
Admit that you’re wrong. >>13007487
Show us all what a honest intellectual and bona fide grown up you are.
Or better yet shut the fuck up lmao, dumbest anon I’ve ever encountered by far, and that’s saying something.

>>13007509
>if a novel is comprised of verse
Which Shakespeare's plays are not. They contain dialogue, they contain stage directions, they contain descriptions in the text and they contain an entire wide whole other dimensionality as theatrical performances

>>13007528
>dialogue as opposed to verse

>>13007538
Is this verse >>13007066?
You should be less concerned on sounding smart and more concerned with being correct

>>13006013
I don’t really get this “Dante is better” meme. Shakespeare never wrote an epic poem so he’s got him there, but Milton is a better epic poet than Dante. Did Dante write any characters as brilliant as Milton’s Satan? No. Satan is a mindless monster in Dante, akin to an animal. What are Dante’s strengths?

>>13007544
is this dialogue?

>>13007567
Yes and obviously when I was speaking in terms of things which are not verse it was referring to those many instances of dialogue that are not verse.
Again another case of you ignoring the reality of things to instead try gain very easily assessible ways of showing you know something only an absolute idiot wouldn't.

>>13007581
No another case of you being a retard and writing retarded things.

>>13007554
Jesus Christ...

Being Anglo is a psychological disease.

>>13007587
Oh yes of course, you're very smart for assuming someone meant something dumb and correcting them

>>13007607
no you are dumb for writing something dumb
I am neither smart nor stupid for reading the dumb thing you wrote

>>13007509
>if a novel is comprised of verse *it becomes a poem*
You're claiming that everything made in verse is a poem which is not true.

A novel is comprised of prose
It doesn't mean that everything comprised of prose is a novel
A poem is comprised of verse
it doesn't mean that everything comprised of verse is a poem

>>13007554
Dante is irrelevant garbage

>>13007631
a book is a stack of usually rectangular pages (made of papyrus, parchment, vellum, or paper) oriented with one edge tied, sewn, or otherwise fixed together and then bound to the flexible spine of a protective cover of heavier, relatively inflexible material
it doesn't mean that every stack of usually rectangular pages (made of papyrus, parchment, vellum, or paper) oriented with one edge tied, sewn, or otherwise fixed together and then bound to the flexible spine of a protective cover of heavier, relatively inflexible material is a book

>>13007591
The response every single time anybody dares disrespect Dante
He had ONE GOOD POEM
It was good but goddamn. Most of its quality is from sheer aesthetic beauty alone, he wasn't as good at storytelling or character psychology as Milton or Shakes

>>13007645
>Most of its quality is from sheer aesthetic beauty alone
oh no

>>13007640
This is what you're doing:
>A book is a [defininiton of a book]
>It doesn't mean that every [definition of a book] is a book

I'm not doing:
>poem is a [definition of a poem]
>It doesn't mean that every [definition of a poem] is a poem

>>13007667
yes you were

>>13007674
A play is not a poem. It can contain poems but it is not a poem.

The same way a movie can be done all in verse and it's not a poem

I don't understand how you can't grasp this.

>>13007707
Read Aristotle.

This has been a somewhat funny, but mostly very bad thread

>>13007714
t. Doesn't realize the Greek word Poetics is not the same as the modern English word Poetry

>>13007720
I

I propose to treat of Poetry in itself and of its various kinds, noting the essential quality of each; to inquire into the structure of the plot as requisite to a good poem; into the number and nature of the parts of which a poem is composed; and similarly into whatever else falls within the same inquiry. Following, then, the order of nature, let us begin with the principles which come first.

Epic poetry and Tragedy, Comedy also and Dithyrambic: poetry, and the music of the flute and of the lyre in most of their forms, are all in their general conception modes of imitation. They differ, however, from one: another in three respects,—the medium, the objects, the manner or mode of imitation, being in each case distinct.

>>13007727
>Even when a treatise on medicine or natural science is brought out in verse, the name of poet is by custom given to the author; and yet Homer and Empedocles have nothing in common but the meter, so that it would be right to call the one poet, the other physicist rather than poet.

OH NO NO NO NO NO LOOK AT THIS DOOD

>>13007787
Yes? He still says that tragedies are poetry.

>>13006264
idiot.

>>13006316
most early modern drama is in verse you moron

>>13007787
based

>>13008352
yes?

>>13008360
is the spanish tragedy a poem now loool

>>13008364
I propose to treat of Poetry in itself and of its various kinds, noting the essential quality of each; to inquire into the structure of the plot as requisite to a good poem; into the number and nature of the parts of which a poem is composed; and similarly into whatever else falls within the same inquiry. Following, then, the order of nature, let us begin with the principles which come first.

Epic poetry and Tragedy, Comedy also and Dithyrambic: poetry, and the music of the flute and of the lyre in most of their forms


loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool

when people talk about shakespeare "being a poet" they mean "a poet at heart" you fucking pseuds. he wrote poetry before plays, then when we wrote plays he would often have the characters launch into poetic monologues on stage (queen mab, for example). hes a dramatist who, for most of his early career, wanted to be a poet instead. hamlet isnt a poem, its a play. poems dont have stage directions.

>>13008368
aristotle is not an authority on shakespeare you fucking braindead moron lol. plenty of scholarly translations dont use the word 'poetry' there btw idiot

>>13008376
>Aristotle isn't an authority on poetry and ontology
>I am
ooooooooooooooooooloooooooooooooooooo

>>13008379
aristotle couldnt write about things that didnt exist yet you pseud fuck. you know ancient greek drama had only one speaker for a long time? it was still very much a branch of poetry even in aristotles time but i think its very unlikely he would have called macbeth a poem. i dont think you realize that the translation of aristotle you read is heavily influenced by the field of "Poetics" (which is very much a 20th century thing). please think more critically instead of taking aristotles words to be immortal facts lol. he claimed a plot must contain every consequent action resulting from the actions within the narrative - is that still true?

he could only observe the art he had access to in his time period you absolute dribbling moron. plenty of the categories and rules he extracted from ancient greek literature are not accurate by the early modern era.

i mean imagine thinking our literary categories havent changed since ancient greece looool

>>13008400
>MUH NOMINALISM
>BOILEAU IS NOT AN AUTHORITY ON POETRY
>DRYDEN IS NOT AN AUTHORITY ON POETRY
>I AM AN AUTHORITY ON POETRY
lol lole lel jejkekkékkèkzozzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzle

>>13008422
i definitely know more about this subject than you, lets leave it at that. feel free to spam more appeals to authority and slam your keyboard in response to this though!!

>>13007794
He says they're the Greek word poetry you dummy, not the English word. To him it just meant literature, poetus just means "to make" in its Gayreek root

>>13008433
i definitely btfo'd you into a right-now-figurative later-at-night-literal fetus position, lets leave it at that. feel free to spam more alleging to erudition while grinning smugly at your own reflection in the compooper scren though!!

>>13008438
no...... no..... this old translation of aristotle MUST be true !!! please!!!!!

>>13008438
and English should pervert this meaning because ... oh, no reason at all, got you

>>13008461
because the literature it describes has evolved you cretin

>>13008471
>thing change (not specified in what way)
>therefore terminology should change in this specific way
IF MY SIGHTING IS IMPAIRED IT'S BECAUSE I'M CRAWLING IN THE DUST OF INTELLECTUAL GIANTS

>>13005980
But it's a painting.

>>13008483
>change
OPPPPPPPPPS TYPE
ME DUMB-BUMB
>SIGHTING
EVEN WORSE OH-OH

>>13008461
Nearly everything in ancient Greek was written in metre as was already stated. They came from a time where literacy rates were still low and oral transition was king so there was a very fuzzy concept of what non-verse works even were in the world of formal writing

>>13008483
aristotle constructed category systems for ancient greek literature
contemporary literature doesnt always fall into these categories
so we categorise it differently

do you still think man is a featherless biped as well lol

>>13008491
>Nearly everything
Yeah what experience what he have had with prose writing, except, you know, his own for starters.
>>13008497
Still just vague generalities. Come on! Finish me with your big throbbing brainpenis!

>>13008497
Its not even just that, he spoke a different language. His words did not mean the same thing as our words.
In that section he's saying that fundamentally all artistic writing can be spoken of as a single thing. Our own word for it is literature

>>13008509
>literature = artistic writing
so no nonfic on /lit/ - literature?
at least if it's not sufficiently artistic?
is old Aristotle artsy enough?

>>13008505
>Yeah what experience what he have had with prose writing, except, you know, his own for starters.
Which are not his real writings but essentially his lecture notes. Anything intended for a large audience was refined for aesthetics and retention. Hence why a lot of the work of doctors like Hippocrates have writings attributed in verse.
In most Ancient societies the same thing appears where a work of any sort is not yet considered complete or perfect until it all takes up a formal verse

>>13008525
>so no nonfic on /lit/ - literature
We don't allow non-fic on /lit/ 99% of the time. Philosophy is the only genre tolerated and is not itself generally considered literature in a proper sense

>>13008535
>We don't allow non-fic on /lit/ 99% of the time
LOL we allow straight up not-even-close to literature to stay up for hours and we certainly allow >>13000254
>>13008528
>All the more puzzling, then, is Cicero’s observation that if Plato’s prose was silver, Aristotle’s was a flowing river of gold (Ac. Pr. 38.119, cf. Top. 1.3, De or. 1.2.49). Cicero was arguably the greatest prose stylist of Latin and was also without question an accomplished and fair-minded critic of the prose styles of others writing in both Latin and Greek. We must assume, then, that Cicero had before him works of Aristotle other than those we possess. In fact, we know that Aristotle wrote dialogues, presumably while still in the Academy, and in their few surviving remnants we are afforded a glimpse of the style Cicero describes. In most of what we possess, unfortunately, we find work of a much less polished character. Rather, Aristotle’s extant works read like what they very probably are: lecture notes, drafts first written and then reworked, ongoing records of continuing investigations, and, generally speaking, in-house compilations intended not for a general audience but for an inner circle of auditors. These are to be contrasted with the “exoteric” writings Aristotle sometimes mentions, his more graceful compositions intended for a wider audience (Pol. 1278b30; EE 1217b22, 1218b34).
>prose
Stanford made an ooooopsie? Cicero made an ooooopsie?

>>13008548
>LOL we allow straight up not-even-close to literature to stay up for hours and we certainly allow
/lit/'s retard mods who only come here two hours a day do not supercede the rules

>>13008548
Dummy, Aristotles works were lost in the fire of Alexandria. Cicero had access to his actual works

>>13008555
>the rules
which do not outlaw >>13000254
>>13008561
>Dummy
>Aristotles works were lost in the fire of Alexandria. Cicero had access to his actual works
There seems to be a lack of connection between these parts.

>>13008568
The point being even Aristotle wrote in the form of plays (which aren't poems) in his formal writing. Greeks were weird as shit and didn't conform to our notions of genre

>>13008600
And from this you are inferring that?

>>13006168
>Be this anon
>Haphazardly write this on the bus to my friend's apartment
>Dont care either way
>Come back tomorrow
>The spergs have bloated this thread to 300 replies
Prettt comfy t b h.

>>13009204
>LOOK AT ME I HAVE A FRIEND
shut up

>>13009209
This is...concerning. Are you okay anon?

>>13009311
In what sense?

>>13005980

was it normal for guys back then to wear earrings or was Shakespeare just a weirdo

>>13007528
lmao stay objectively wrong and pathetically mad

>>13008608
>>13008568
aaannnnd it doesn't seem like my interlocutors are going to respond
another victory for me
as is usual