/lit/ - Literature

maybe it wasn't "great" enough, but Don DeLillo's Underworld was certainly trying to be a GREAT AMERICAN NOVEL

>>12991833
Underworld came out in 1997 buddy

cultural decay

that freak makes me uneasy

the world ended in 1997, everything since then has been just an illusion

>>12991811
>Why hasn’t there been a great American novel since then?
because of phoneposters

>>12991811
also, lmao at the idea of Lolita being a Great American Novel

>>12992056
which part are you lol-ing at? the great part or the american part?

>>12992061
the part where the national zeitgeist of the 1950s is captured by a debilitatingly horny professor desperately trying to pipe his wife's 12 year old child

>>12992103
i feel like a great novel should go against the zeitgeist, not with it

>>12991811
the end of history. see: fukuyama (and Fisher but he tries to argue against it)

>>12992115
I'm not arguing that Lolita isn't great, but the idea of the great american novel is that it's supposed to be a sprawling diagnosis of american and/or contemporary culture. It's not just a great novel set in America or written by an American or whatever

im sure something of jonathon franzen's garbage fits the bill as superficially as most of that list in OP

>>12992050

HE IS A PSYCHOPATH; THAT IS THE STARE OF A SOULLESS FLESHVESSEL.

>>12991811
There are many great American novels post 1997. But "they" don't want you to know about them, and "they" don't promote them. The idea of a "great American novel" itself is very racist, doncha know??

But yeah, they're out there if you know how to dig

>>12992600
Give me a list because I can't dig.

>>12991811
America ended culturally in 2001.

>>12993843
Not OP but here is my list of neglected favorites

Our Burden's Light
The Lost Scrapbook
Circuits of the Wind
Adrift in a Vanishing City
Mariette in Ecstasy
Pharmacology
Zeitgeist
Grab On to Me Tightly as if I Knew the Way
Battleborn
Bongwater
The Last Rock Star Book
Kanley Stubrick
Arafat Mountain
The Cybergypsies
Fort Starlight
Skippy Dies
Raintree Country
A Naked Singularity

>>12991811
Remembered that Franzen used to be on that list. That talk page is more autistic than /lit/.

>>12993843
Behead All Satans

>>12993957
>look up Our Burden's Light
>reading first few pages
>When it opened again, the rabbit was gone and all that was left of it was the low, trembling bushes and the nearly invisible sound of loose, scattering earth beyond them.
>nearly invisible sound
great taste man thanks for the list

>>12993957
Where do you find these books? I've never heard of any of them.
The author of Fort Starlight was one of my professors.

>>12994043
t. author of behead all satans

>>12991811
Because nobody reads novels in the age of HBO. Sopranos, The Wire, Rome etc. have replaced them.

>>12993957
Thank you based anon, I will look these. But why is your list missing Amino by the great Luke Feistamel?

>>12994663
look these up*

>>12991811
>https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_American_Novel
> Fantastic four

I would consider Witz a great American novel and it was published in what, 2010?

>>12993957
Nice. Good to see an actual patrician post on this gay board.

>>12993957
Some smart, excellent titles there.

Imagine the last great american play... Death of a Salesman ? Been even longer.

>>12991811
the 90s was actually the end of history, fukuyama was right

>>12992051
elaborate

>>12994829
Sup, Joshua.

>>12995631
Also: when was the last great American poem? Or painting?

>>12991811
Was considered 'great' when it came out
But it isn't it has no soul

>>12995631
>>12996118
these artforms have been replaced and the novel hasn't

>>12996221
What was poetry replaced with? I think one might be able to argue that pop music replaced poetry. But I'd like to hear what you think.

>>12996328
if you mean pop music as in all lyrical music packaged for consumption (as opposed to the pop genre), then yeah

>>12996379
yeah, exactly.
i wrote poetry for years and now am putting all that into writing lyrics

>>12992115
It goes against the current one but ultimately informs the next zeitgeist

>>12991811
The industry is publishing more diverse voices, particularly women of color. We can't have a Great American Novel unless it's written by a white dude, so there are a lot less potential GAN's to choose from.

>>12996401
I would argue that film and like, digital art don't completely eclipse their old counterparts, but pop music has completely obviated poetry imo. You might as well be a steampunk guy if you still consider yourself a "poet"

>>12996410
This, exactly. The industry itself is pushing against the GAN and any work of high quality in their insane "commitment" to "diversity". A big joke, all it means is shitting on the white guy. Especially if he's a Christian. It's literal suicide. Who is responsible and why

>>12996410
>>12996895
you guys are absolute pussies to still give so much weight to the "industry." even disregarding indie publishers, if you wrote a novel with the quality of any of the books in the contemporary canon and distributed it through fucking megaupload in this day and age, it would still get an audience of tens of thousands at minimum

>>12996118
>Great American Poem

Here

http://www.cosmoetica.com/American Imperium.htm

>>12997025
>you guys are absolute pussies to still give so much weight to the "industry." even disregarding indie publishers, if you wrote a novel with the quality of any of the books in the contemporary canon and distributed it through fucking megaupload in this day and age, it would still get an audience of tens of thousands at minimum
You, sir, are a retard. Are you a writer? Published? A content creator of any sort? If so, let's have your name. Oh, but you're not. In other words, retard, you don't know how it works. You really think "indie publishers" will save you? Yes, you do, because as a retard you have no idea how indie publishing works, how book distribution works, how impossible it is for anyone to know even a mote of the thousands of "indie" titles that come out every year, even if you're a book reviewer. Yes, tard, I'm a professional book reviewer. It's my job to know what's out there and to read it, and tard, I can tell you that even reading as many books a week as I do, and hanging out online in as many bookish places as I do (including /lit/, home of many apparent retards), I can't know even a small percentage of what's out there. And this is just on the major and some of the top "indie" small presses. Forget the micropresses, and the sea of self-published. No, tard, you don't just write quality work and megaupload it. A novel (or a scientific paper, or a great work of philosophy, or a new poetic form) is not like a three chord pop song or a fucking pepe meme. No one is going to be hooked by the title of some unknown novel on an upload site, read the first line, be hooked, and on to the end, especially if it's different and interesting and good. That's not how it happens. 10/10 for flamebait, though.

>>12997338
>No, tard, you don't just write quality work and megaupload it
>he hasn't read Feistamel

>>12993957
>The Lost Scrapbook
absolutely based

>>12997338
it sounds like your complaint is that it's now impossible for a shithead who sucks dick at writing to have a paid career as a writer unless they have some diversity boxes checked, not that it's impossible to find an audience for truly original creative work. How many of the books that you read and review are even worth reading, let alone worth consideration as a Great Novel? You think any book you consider great would be unknown if it was read by even <100 people? Are you suggesting that there are Gravity's Rainbows and JR's floating around in shitty binding and .mobi files, that no one will ever read?

>>12997338
why don't you make yourself useful and tell me a castoff book you've professionally read that would be considered great, or seminal, or genre-defining, if only it had the weight and prestige of a major house behind it

Someone help me find a book by contemporary author. All I remember is reading the Amazon preview and it starts with a guy painting (maybe doing some sort of art?) in his garage. It's American. It's supposed to be good, I guess.

>>12997705
How contemporary is contemporary? Any more information?

>>12997719
Idk, can't remember. I think it was 2000's or 90's but I could be completely wrong. The author, I'm pretty sure is contemporary even if the book in question is a bit older. I checked my Amazon viewing history and I can't find it. All I can remember is that the prose was interesting and very "literary"

>>12996015
What's happening brother

>>12997738
Wittgenstein's Mistress? That's a woman and I don't think she paints in her garage though

>>12991811
is this the guy that makes youtube videos that exploit handicapped people with titles "deaf blind handicapped person is JUST LIKE US *WATCH UNTIL END*"

>>12997789
No, it's definitely a guy painting in his garage

>>12997789
>>12997719
Oi, I found it. It's the Corrections by Franzen

>>12997831
>the Corrections
oh brother

>>12997836
What lol, I've never read him before so I don't know anything about his reputation

>>12997843
You should read him if you want, his books are really easy reads. He just doesn't have anything interesting to say though, which comes across more in Freedom than Corrections. He's the ultimate in navel gazing family drama lit prof guy

>>12997887
Doesn't sound like my cup of tea. It was just bugging me that I couldn't remember who it was.

>>12991811
because the post-modernists all fucked us into a horrible submission where everything is ironic and fractured and nothing matters

>>12997338
respond pussy

>>12993957
Hey dude, have you read Flee, by Evan Dara? Asking because you read the Lost Scrapbook.

I don't know anyone who has read the book and am in need of knowing some opinions. I thought it was rather banal. But everyone keeps telling here that Dara is this great wordsmith.

Am I missing something?

>>12997659
>it sounds like your complaint is that it's now impossible for a shithead who sucks dick at writing to have a paid career as a writer unless they have some diversity boxes checked, not that it's impossible to find an audience for truly original creative work.
Yes, exactly. Diversity is out of control, and having dealt with it as long as I have (and having been kept back from it), I know what it's all about. It's not about representing so-called "under represented" ethnic groups and races. Not at all. (I get blips about the foreign book trade and assure you that NO ONE in <insert nation here> is making sure that people who are not ethnically and racially <nation> are being represented.) It's about making whites outsiders in their own countries. I'm white myself and have dealt with crap for 18 years of this, and have seen what it's done. It's sickening.

>How many of the books that you read and review are even worth reading, let alone worth consideration as a Great Novel?
Most are not Great Novels. Most don't try to be and that's ok. Someone like Carl Hiaasen, a competent and funny writer, very readable, but he's not trying to be James Joyce. There are more "good" writers like that than anything. My interest is in the Great Novels. They're rare.

> You think any book you consider great would be unknown if it was read by even <100 people?
Absolutely. Maybe not for forever, but right now this is a strange time in the industry. Since 2008 or so, actually a little earlier, it's been very feasible for writers to self-publish a book. You really couldn't do that before. You needed a vanity press, and no one would read it. (I have a book in my possession from 1948. It's self published. It's the only known copy in the world. Not a Great Novel, not at all, but a decent book. It's a period romance thriller. It would have made a good film noir. But she didn't get it to the right people.)
Even in the 90's and early 00's you had iuniverse. I've seen some interesting books come from that. Maybe not a Great Book, but a seriously good book. And original writers, better than a lot of names that get tossed around here. But the few I had in mind never went any further. That's the thing, time. You can never tell.
People have mentioned Burroughs a lot on here lately. Naked Lunch was his big breakout, and before it was published about a dozen people knew about it. They thought it was great. They knew it. But if it hadn't reached the right press? Burroughs would be a very minor footnote. He needed Grove Press, they were able to publish enough copies to get to enough people and his reputation was made.

> Are you suggesting that there are Gravity's Rainbows and JR's floating around in shitty binding and .mobi files, that no one will ever read?
Yes and no.
A number of years ago I discovered and helped promote a book called The Brubury Tales. It's a poem, along the lines of the Canterbury Tales. It was an original work, and has since come to get some lauds.1/2

>>12997659
2/2
But it's still unknown. A good press would have helped him.

So are there any Gravity's Rainbow and JR level books out on Kindle or sitting on Smashwords? I don't know, but I guarantee there are some V. and The Recognitions type works out there. First books. Maybe second books. But still, books of a writer capable of Greatness.

Trick is this: how would you recognize them? That's the problem. You have to be open to something that the magazines aren't talking about.

A writer doesn't get to Gravity's Rainbow or whatever Great Novel you want to list without writing a lot, and writing other works first. Few have a masterpiece as their first book at the age of 28. I think (I know) there are writers of that ability, with that kind of talent out there, and are self publishing. But they are early on their cycle. Their first book or two. They might get recognition, and then move up to a better press, and maybe do more. But you have to understand this is a very strange time in publishing, and who gets published has MUCH to do with favors and connections. Almost as much, or more, than the quality of the work.
A writer who self publishes from the start is effectively saying Fuck you to the industry. That's ok, but don't expect the industry to pick you up. Writers used to plan their careers and were more careful about them before. Today, the academics are still that way, but a lot of writers seem to want to Fuck the industry off right away and self publish. I don't know where this is leading. Maybe people will be looking at these lost .mobis in 100 years. Or maybe no one will read English. I don't know. It's both very depressing and very exciting at times.

>>12999056
>>12999097
I'm glad that you responded earnestly, but it's interesting to me that you don't think that even you yourself would recognize something as good as The Recognitions if it came to you unlabeled. I certainly think I would be able to. I'm somewhat sympathetic to the change in the culture industry to promote diversity in large part due to my belief that it's impossible to ignore truly original, quality work, especially with something as auteurish as a novel. I'd be interested in whatever recommendations you might have as to unknown contemporary books that deserve better, for sure

>>12994640

Fugg

>>12999177
>I'm glad that you responded earnestly, but it's interesting to me that you don't think that even you yourself would recognize something as good as The Recognitions if it came to you unlabeled. I certainly think I would be able to. I'd be interested in whatever recommendations you might have as to unknown contemporary books that deserve better, for sure
I don't think I was quite clear in my post. (Busy day, working from home but I have deadlines and too much to read to be spending the time I have been on /lit/ unfortunately.)
I think I might, or would, be able to recognize it. I like to think I would. But what I meant by that is generally, most readers would not. Not at all. You have to understand, even when a Great Novel is discovered, it isn't always recognized as such. Burroughs, the example I used before. Some love him, some hate him, he's considered an important writer. But think of the many people on here who hate him, and consider if they were one of the ones to discover his manuscript. What would happen? There are writers who are definitely big today and some considered Great that I probably would have passed on. It happens. Sometimes a writer ends up in obscurity because the wrong people found him, or the right ones didn't.
I trust that I would recognize something that was good, or great, or Great, if I really looked and if I liked it. But if it wasn't to my taste, and I'm reading it blind, I can easily see passing. You take an important writer, anyone, and you know it's important so you can hold your own doubts, sometimes for 50 pages. If you don't have that, it's much harder.
The other thing about self publishing. Even if you do it well, and work very hard, you don't have 1% of the resources of a big publisher. There are so many people who work on a book. Even when I read galleys I don't see the final product, the words are changed. Maybe not radically but they are. Authors don't know layout, typesetting, design, all the other things that publishers have access to. It's not like 4 people work on your book (even at the smallest indies they have more, they often have to sub out for proofreaders and whatnot). There's 40 sets of eyes on your pages. Or more. It's like even a big famous band like Pink Floyd or whatever might write some songs, they will sound great because these are gifted and competent musicians, but it's nothing like what happens in the studio. The effects, the layering, and just the amount of professional input takes your rough take and turns it into something rich and varied and deep. Self pubbers don't have that at all, and their work will never have that gloss and polish. And depth.
I'll think about the "unknowns" I've seen and do a list here. The one guy's list above is not total unknowns but a good start for really worthy underground lit.

>>12996176
This book is annoying

>>12991811
"Great novels of one of the largest nations on Earth" probably don't pop up like mushrooms.

Is American Pastoral really better than Mason & Dixon

>>12992600
I'm planning on baking some cookies later, can I borrow some of that tin foil?

>>12992051
wasn't that in 2012

>>12996176

i enjoyed it

>>12993957
based and top tier recs

>>12991811
>m.wikipedia
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Also. it was the fucking internet and >>12992046

>>12998503
Flee is so fucking good. It's definitely a post-1997 GAN and by far the best thing written about the Great Recession. The only parts I sort of didn't like involved the couple who were starting up (I think?) an employment agency, but other than that it was an easier read than The Easy Chain or Lost Scrapbook, and I was hoping that that plus the fact that it's short would get him a lot of notice, but it looks like he's fated to be the world's best obscure author. The portion of the book with Marcus was totally not banal, I thought it was Chekhov-level emotion and storytelling and was incredible beautiful prose

>>13000642
Well, I disagree. The prose was nothing special. I don't understand how, by reading flee, one can make the assertion that he's going to be "the best obscure author". There's nothing amazing about flee at all.
This is also an elaborate troll, because it's not about the great recession, but the recession from 2008, and the parts you didn't like are the book itself - the story revolves around that couple.
Anyway, the book is ok, no more than that. I saw zero brilliane or genius in the prose or the ideas of the author.