/lit/ - Literature

>>12926323
Bump

>>12926323
I can't explain the concept well enough over 4-chan, but it is possible to have a ten-syllable line and it is "wrong" meaning it's not iambic pentameter.

>>12926323

dactylic hexameter in english is extremely rare, and it is common - across languages - to break up the meter of a poem with exceptions to it for dramatic or aesthetic purposes

english dactylic hex, split across two lines:
>There once was a man from Nantucket, who walked with his foot in a bucket,

a line of unbroken iambic pentameter:
>is this the face that launched a thousand ships?

>>12926323
>If I'm trying to write in iambic pentameter, do I just need to make sure each line is only ten syllables?

By definition, yes. Iambic refers to the stress pattern and the number of syllables per foot, that being two syllables of unstressed stressed. So, if there are 5 feet of iamb by definition it must be 10 syllables.

>Is it possible to write a ten syllable line and still have it be "wrong" so to speak?

It is conceivable, but when one thinks of rhythm, one must always think about the underlying beat. What I mean is that if there is a trochic substitution in an iambic line, meaning a pattern of stressed stressed in the place of an unstressed stressed, it will not cease to be iambic because there is still present the expectation of iamb. However, if one puts 4 trochic feet (which is highly untenable) it would cease to be iamb because there is no longer the expectation of iamb.

This is an extreme example, but if two three-foot lines are commonly substituted in iambic pentameter, I could see how that could cease to be iambic.

I cannot conceive how an iambic pentameter could "accidentally" turn into a dactylic hexameter. Meter does not operate as a flow chart; there aren't specific transformations such as the one you are suggesting. I would advise you to take a more descriptive approach to meter in that you should attempt to map symbolically what the rhythm is doing rather than imposing what you think the rhythm should do at this point. An example would be discovering a pattern (and unconscious expectation) of tri-syllabic feet in a seemingly di0syllabic poem (maybe check out the lake isle of Innisfree, although I may be mistaken since I have not read that poem in a while)

>>12926323
da-DUM da-DUM da-DUM da-DUM da-DUM

when I do COUNT the CLOCK that TELLS the TIME

>>12926547
I cant believe op is such a psued.

Does that work?

>>12926586
yep - i suppose in "op" both the letters are said with stress, but no one would fault you for that
feel free to post more stuff, i can tell you if its right

>>12926323
OP are you a native English speaker? If so you should be able to sound out the rhythm and work out the stressed and unstressed syllables that way. If you are still not sure, a good rule of thumb is that meaningful words are stress For example, see >>12926547 where the stressed syllables are the nouns and verbs, and unstressed syllables are articles, relative pronouns, etc. For multisyllabic words, if you aren't sure, check the dictionary for the stress.

If you really want to go down the rabbit hole, check out "generative metrics." There are some interesting papers on this by Morris Halle (he wrote an important work on English phonology with Chomsky). Anyway he shows how even the instances where Shakespeare does not follow perfect iambic pentameter follow a regular pattern and are still rule-based and systematic at a higher level

>>12926541
Why is dactylic hexameter so rare in English but the most common in Latin and Greek? Does it not work well in English for some reason?

>>12926604
Yeah, it just comes off as comic in English, and often has a fair amount of filler. English’s natural rhythm is fairly iambic.

OP is such a motherfucking fag
He loves to suck fat dicks both day and night
And guzzles cum until he starts to gag
His favorite pastime and perverse delight

>>12926628
>His favorite pastime and perverse delight
That's eleven syllables

>>12926633

not if you're American

>>12926633
only if you are autistic about it. It's a common feature of spoken English to ellide a vowel in the penultimate syllable of a three or four syllable word where the preceding syllable is stressed and the third syllable begins with r/l/n. Some common examples are as follows

accidentally
bachelor
traveler
camera
memory
favorite

You could write the word as "fav'rite" but it seems unnecessary.

>>12926660
or I should say word word of three or more syllables actually

>>12926660
Is it not a big mistake to occasionally go over ten syllables when writing in iambic pentameter? Do any major poets do it?

>>12926672
when a line ends with a word that ends with an unstressed syllable (eg "endless," "helpful," "lady"), the line is considered to have a "feminine ending"
shakespeare does this with "to be or not to be that is the question"

wehenver i try to figure out the stress of words i get confused
help

>>12926686
There are these things called dictionaries. They give you information about words including, among other things, the syllabification and stress.

>>12926686
when-EV-er YOU do TRY to FIND the STRESS of WORDS, you GET con-FUSED?

I don't know how to do this, is this right?

Iambic pentameter is NOT 10 syllable lines.

It is five FEET which are mostly iambs, but may be trochees, dachtyls or spondees, typically with non-iambs falling on the last foot.

Hart Crane, interestingly enough, wrote in 10 syllable lines approximating pentameter.

>>12926701
>trochees, dachtyls or spondees
You're just making shit up now

>>12926597
>both letters are said with stress
i CAN'T beLIEVE oh PEE is SUCH a PSEUD

>>12926705
two things:
1.) they're real, use google
2.) read pic

>>12926726

>>12926740
that wasn't directed towards you; there are tripfags and tripfriends, and you, butterfly, are a tripfriend

>>12926701
Any good books discussing these kind of technical details?

>>12927011
Stephen Fry's The Ode Less Travelled is actually a really good introduction to much of the technical aspect of poetry

>>12926815
ohohohohohoho :3

>>12926323
Why are you using a picture of Dante in a post about iambic pentameter? Have you heard of fucking Shakespeare? Dante wrote in Terza Rima, which, y’know, he fucking INVENTED. The disrespect to both is too much for me to bear, too much!

>>12926693
kek

>>12926323
>do I just need to make sure each line is only ten syllables?
No, you need to get the stresses right as well
>I'm not sure I understand the unstressed/stressed pattern
It's just unstressed and stressed syllables alternating, starting with unstressed.

>one TWO one TWO one TWO one TWO one TWO

What's not to understand?

>>12926686
Try yelling the sentence (but at normal talking speed), I find it helps me amplify the stresses

Rhythm is something you gradually get a sense for in reading poems.

There are usually multiple ways to interpret where the stresses fall in excerpted lines, but in the broader context of a poem (and poetry in general) it becomes clear where the heartbeat thumps.

It drove me insane when trying to read about it in the abstract, and while my reading skills are still basic, I can definitely testify to a continuous improvement in sensing rhythm simply gained from reading poems.

>>12926547

Is

I think your motives are suspect, my friend.

Right

>>12926323
>Is it possible to write a ten syllable line and still have it be "wrong" so to speak? How?
If by 'wrong' you mean not in iambic pentameter then
>Please can someone fucking kill me quickly
Is trochaic pentameter, not a meter commonly used in English but still ten syllables, and said out loud it is noticeably different from
>I wish that life was like Chinese cartoons
Which is in iambic pentameter. If I take the first line I wrote and move the 'please' to the end I get
>Can someone fucking kill me quickly please
Which is in iambic pentameter and doing the same thing to the second line gives us
>wish that life was like Chinese cartoons I
Which is trochaic pentameter.
Every single one of these lines has ten syllables, but the lines in trochaic pentameter have five trochees (pairs of syllables that go stressed/unstressed) and the lines in iambic pentameter have five iambs (pairs of syllables that go unstressed/stressed)

>>12927891
>I think your motives are suspect, my friend.

It's not great. The problem is the word suspect, which carries its stress on the first syllable when used as an adjective

>>12926672
You have to understand that most great poets are not absoultely rigid to the rules. Poetic license and knowing when to use it is fundamental to the creatiln of great poetry, otherwise the poem would be fairly boring.

>>12927151
Cool, had seen that mentioned before, I'll give it a go. Might also try the poetry handbook by John Leonard. Thanks.

>>12926815
No she isn't you disgusting whiteknight. She's the definition of an attention whore and she will never let you sniff her feet anyway so there

>>12929301
go make a tripcode so I can filter you, faggot

>>12926323
I don't believe you have to study much
In order to produce some pentameters:
The thing you need the most is called an EAR,
(Plus quite some hours of relentless practice).

>>12929314
You wish

>>12926323
No, the stresses need to end each iambic foot. See >>12926541, the stresses fall very nicely on this, face, launched, thou, ships.
>>12926544
So, by definition, no. There can be exceptions to the pattern, but trochaic is distinct from iambic. See the Raven or "Tyger! Tyger! Burning bright." Or https://xkcd.com/856/..
>>12926672
Kinda of, but in that case favorite is not 3 syllables as spoken. Also the feminine ending is generally allowed in iambic meter where you have an unstressed syllable left at the end of the line.

>>12926604
Because latin and greek don't use stress accent for poetry but syllable quantity