/lit/ - Literature

honestly, the aeneid really does suck but the odyssey and iliad are great.

>>12925305
correctamundo

>he didn’t read it in Latin

>having to be assigned the Odyssey or Aenieid before you read it.

What course are you in op?

>>12925239
Funny you should mention that, on his deathbed, Virgil wanted the manuscript to be burned since it was an incomplete mess, but Augustus thought it was too important for Roman nationalism.

>>12925332
freshman literature course sequence focused on western culture, starting with Ancient Greece and Mesopotamia
>>12925334
Jove-damn it, Augustus

>>12925239
no youre wrong

>You shall not find the sons of Atreus here, nor need the frauds of sly Ulysses fear
I love of this line because I hate Odysseus. Ajax deserved better. Fuck Athena too

>>12925239
the first chapters of Aeneid - Troy burning, were the first epic action sequence that clicked with me. very vivid imagery and the scenes of the royal family being butchered were really dramatic as well. I actually dropped it somewhere before Didona.
>>12925326
is a reasanoble arguent. I hope i get good with latin or greek sometimes in the next year or so.
based catholic mysticism.

>>12925400
athena helped ajax in the iliad

>>12925418
She also had a hand in his death

>>12925429
easy come easy go

>>12925436

>>12925239
Really? I haven't read it yet but had heard this Vergil was arguably the greatest poet of all time.

>>12925239
Few of the chapters are god tier, for example the first one, but there certainly are some that suck.

>>12925305
>>12925239
reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee i liked the aeneid more than the odessey reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

>>12926990
Me too

>>12925305
Don't group the Iliad with the Odyssey. The Odyssey is on its own and comprises so many unforgettable moments. The Iliad is dbz for classics nerds

>>12925239
>he found the odyssey merely "okay"
no wonder you had no taste for the aeneid

Aeneid is the true pleb filter, because its stylistic qualities are absolutely superior to Homer's.
>hurr a couple of references to the greatness of the cradle of Western civilization means this book is garbage propaganda durr

>>12927782
>a couple of references
are you joking?

Holy shit read Metamorphoses you plebs

>>12925326
fuck i hate when /lit/ is this smug

>>12925239
>>12925305
>>12925319
>>12925728 (>chapters)
the absolute state

Its the most based propaganda ive ever read

I read it when I was 19 but I remember enjoying it a lot
>Guy wins a boxing contest
>Gets a huge bull as a prize
>Gets pissed off about something
>Punches bull in the forehead and kills it instantly
That's hilarious

>>12928388
i think you might've missed some of the immediate meaning

>>12928388
this part was based

>>12925239
>it's unreadable garbage
Maybe it was the translation?

>>12928502
I probably picked up on it at the time but this was years ago and now I just remember laughing at it
What's this "immediate meaning" you think I missed

The Aeneid is great, you are all retarded.

Who is a better judge of poetic merit, Dante? or some racist teenager larping as an intellectual on the computer?

>>12925726
Who told you that, Dante?

>>12929228
He was too humble to recognize himself as the best poet of all time, so that makes Virgil the second best.

>>12929119
>Dante
how did you namedrop the only poet worse than Vergil?

This thread shows very well why exactly /lit/ is so terrible for discussing literature.

To be quite honest... It's hard to understand how you call others 'pleb' when you yourselves are like this.

By the way, if you have read it in English translation, you haven't read it. It's Latin poetry, and you're reading it in English. Makes no sense to say you've read 'the Aeneid'. You should learn Latin, or at least some Romance language in order to get a little closer to the original (albeit not very close, really).

vixi et quem dederat cursum Fortuna peregi,
et nunc magna mei sub terras ibit imago.
urbem praeclaram statui, mea moenia vidi,
ulta virum poenas inimico a fratre recepi,
felix, heu nimium felix, si litora tantum
numquam Dardaniae tetigissent nostra carinae.'
dixit, et os impressa toro 'moriemur inultae,
sed moriamur' ait.

>>12929257
it's not Latin poetry either, it's mental poetry translated into Latin. all writing is inherently translated. you will never get the full picture of what Vergil intended

>>12929263
It is Latin poetry.

The Aeneid is the name of the book, not the name of whatever Virgil had in mind when he wrote it.

Jesus Christ, that's the worst excuse I have ever seen.

>>12929263
>it's mental poetry translated into Latin
Did you think this was clever when you wrote it? Holy fuck

>>12929250
e/b/in :DDDDDDDDDDD

>>12929263
Nice try, but poetry exists only within a particular language. The work of art is the material, the signifier, not the signified.

>>12929293
the original work was a collection of complex thoughts floating around in Vergil's head. he had to simplify it and make compromises with the original meaning to put it into words and then made yet more simplifications and compromises to put it in verse (unless, of course, you wish to argue he literally thought in verse). who the hell cares if it has a third layer of simplifications and compromises to put it in English on top of the first two?
>>12929297
>Did you think this was clever
no, I thought it was basic and obvious
>>12929298
ok buddy

>>12929309
Abstract thoughts are not a poem you colossal retard
A poem is the written verse expressing those thoughts

>>12929338
abstract thought and poetry are unable to be translated back and forth perfectly though. if you think translation from Latin to English is inherently flawed, then you must also think the same of thought and any language

For my part I would exchange all twelve books of Virgil's Aeneid for a single book of Ennius's Annals, Ennius, who lived in Rome's grandest Republican days and counted the great Scipio as his personal friend, was what I would call a true poet: Virgil was merely a remarkable verse-craftsman. Compare the two of them when they are both writing about a battle : Ennius writes like the soldier he was (he rose from the ranks to a captaincy), Virgil like a cultured spectator from a distant hill. Virgil borrowed much from Ennius. Some say he overshadowed Ennius's rude genius by his cultured felicity of phrase and rhythm. But that is nonsense. It is like Aesop's fable of the wren and the eagle. The birds all competed as to which could fly the highest. The eagle won, but when he tired and could go no higher, the wren, who had been nestling on his back, mounted up a few score feet and claimed the prize. Virgil was a mere wren by comparison with Ennius the eagle. And even if you concentrate on single beauties, where in Virgil will you find a passage to equal in simple grandeur such lines of Ennius's as these ? -

'Fraxinu' frangitur atque abies consternitur alta.
Pinus proceras pervortunt: omne sonabat
Arbustum fremitu silvai frondosai.'

'The ash was hewn, the high white fir laid low,
Down toppled they the princely pines, and all
That grove of countless leaves rang with the timber's fall.'

>>12929356
You're fucking retarded bud
The art is the poem, in the way a man expresses his thoughts
There are limitations in what you can express with language there but they're no different than the edges of a canvas, it's part of the art form

>>12929309
>ok buddy

>>12929257
>Makes no sense

>>12929297
Did you just come across this idea for the first time? Holy fuck

>>12929298
no that's not right. it's not what the artist does that counts. but what he is. the rest is false.

>>12929509
fuck off /lit/ is an aestheticist board

>>12929529
is it actually? why? the struggle-for-existence-god’s-in-his-heaven-art-for-art’s-sake stage has been a joke for about a century now

>>12929540
WOW IMAGINE AN IMAGEBOARD THAT IS A JOKE
HOW RIDICULOUS
HOW ABSURD
WHAT A CRIME AGAINST THE VERY ORDER OF THINGS
IT WILL NOT PASS
IT WILL NOT PASS
IT WILL NOT PASS

>>12929418
you just admitted I'm right
>it's part of the art form
that also applies to the edges created by translation into English; if you accept translation from thought based on this reason, you must also accept translation to a different language for the same reason
>>12929430
i kno rite?? arnt i da best???

>>12929563
oh yeah and this is still OP, forgot the tag lmao

>>12929548
eh?

>>12929568
fuck off leaf

>>12929575
that was an english eh

>>12929509
Then you've shifted the discussion to the artist, instead of the art. In fact, you seem to be saying that art is false. In that case you should leave this place that is meant to discuss false things.

>>12929605
picasso said that. it's true, there can be no literary equivalent to truth. poetry is the unforeseen fusion in the poets mind of apparently contradictory emotional ideas. and so
>>12929293
>>12929297
op is right

otherwise there's nothing peculiar or fantastic about art at all. so if that's how you lot feel really you ought to leave the board

I teared up at the end of book 2 and 4.
4 is the highpoint though. The knock off Iliad of books 6-12 are whatever.

Shitass board, shitass OPs

The Aeneid is not about the story. The story sucks ass. Unlike the (superior) Iliad and Odyssey which are made up on the spot, and are about the musicality and scenes, it is 100% about the poetry, and the parts that were finished were painstakingly crafted and exceedingly beautiful. But you won't know because you can't just take the 3 years to learn how to read (no not translate in your head, but actually read) Latin.

>>12925239
>Fagles
Lmao what a fag

>>12929250
We’ll definitely take seriously the opinion of someone who consistently spells it Vergil.

The Aeneid is Latin porn. It is extremely phonetic. Latin isn't that hard to learn so if you read Virgil in English you're just a beta pussy anyway.

Arma virumque cano... just listen to that cadence.

>>12931056
>"oh boy i live in a culture where sex is bad!!! wait isnt it odd how one of my favorite poets has a name that sounds like virgin??? lets change the spelling even though he was born vergilius!!1!!11!one!!11!!oneone!!1!!1!!"
your opinion has been noted, thank you for your input

>>12931068
Lmao shut up retarded tryhard, spell it like everyone else

>>12925239
It reads nicely in Latin.

>>12928285
This.

>>12931073
>"yeah mom everybody does it!!! who cares if i say would/should/could of instead of would/should/could have??? it may not be correct but its a common mistake so it must be okay!!one!!!11!uno!11!!!¡¡!¡!!one!!¡¡¡!!¡!uno!¡!!11!¡111¡¡!¡!!!!!¡"

>>12931098
>common mistake
Yeah if only the Western Canon had consulted you first, you unbelievable dumbass lmao shut the fuck up and do as you’re told

>>12931121
>implying I think I'm the authority on the spelling of his name
I believe the Romans were the authority on this, and they spelled his name Vergilius

>>12925239
The last chapter is great.

>>12931121
what? i think it's typically 50/50 whether it's spelt virgil or vergil

>>12931131
Funny you don’t call him Vergilius then, for maximum accuracy you cringeworthy buttmuncher.

>>12931149
I’m sure you think so because you’re dumb, but it’s very rare that someone is autistic enough to spell it Vergil. Virgil is very much the ubiquitous spelling.

>>12931152
funny you don't call Borges by his true name and title, Jorge Francisco Isidoro Luis Borges Acevedo, KBE, for maximum accuracy, you cringeworthy buttmuncher

>>12931171
Not even a little bit comparable retard, you’re embarassing. We’re discussing surnames.

>>12931174
>We're discussing surnames.
it's his middle name, dumbass
>Not even a little bit comparable
it is very comparable, since you're getting wet over me shortening his name yet you likely don't refer to Borges in full. in any case, if you're so obsessed with respelling the nicknames of people, why not do it to his first or last name, calling him Pablo (from Publius) or Marco (from Maro) instead?

>>12931183
>it's his middle name, dumbass
I knew you’d be low enough IQ to seize on this, retards always reach for semantics. The point is we’re discussing a single name, not full names. Virgil vs Vergilius is not comparable to Borges vs Jorge Francisco Isidoro Luis Borges Acevedo KBE.
>it’s very comparable, since you’re getting wet over me shortening his name yet you likely don’t refer to Borges in full
Again, we’re dealing with the question of the mononym. You’re mad because you know that your whole argument for spelling it Vergil (that it’s the accurate Roman spelling!!!1!!1!!) means that if the question is maximum Roman accuracy, you should be calling him Vergilius. But that’d make your tryhardism a little too blatant, wouldn’t it?

>>12931216
what are you talking about? I've always referred to him as Vergilius, I just like to abbreviate names when I type, kind of like how everyone else uses the abbreviation DFW. why are you being so autistic?

>>12931227
Lmao whatever “Anonymous”, we both know I’ve outed you to your face for what you are. You do you!

>>12931236
>I've outed you to your face
this is just an indirect and bitchier way of putting /thread in your own comment

>>12931157
In anglo countries

>>12925239
Virgil expected it to need another four years of revision before he would have liked it to be published.

>>12931157
it's not rare at all. at least not in scholastic texts

>>12928285
this pretty much

>>12929250
>Vergil

retard

>>12931316
retard

>>12925418
When?

>>12931227
>I've always referred to him as Vergilius
Interesting how you’ve just spent so much time justifying to him why you don’t, then.

>>12931291
Wow dude, I guess if you say so it must be true. Meanwhile, in reality, including on the book cover of this very thread, it’s ubiquitously Virgil. But I don’t even know how you’d prove it either way, which is ripe territory for retards to argue something to the death, since most things CAN be easily proven, in which cases, since they’re retards that know nothing, they hold their tongue.

>>12931370
literally every comment I've made in this thread, including the OP, refers to him by his actual name, Vergilius. why are you literally illiterate?

The Georgics is great tho
Bees!

>>12931444
No, no it doesn’t. You’ve been saying Vergil and defending the reasons you don’t have to say Vergilius. But I know you’re resorting to pretending like you’ve been trolling now.
>I was only pretending to be retarded

>>12931522
what are you talking about? my original post clearly states
>Augustus should have killed Vergilius for dedicating such offensively bad writing to him
how can't you see that? is your internet not working?

>>12931560
>>I was only pretending to be retarded

>>12931574
>>>I was only pretending to be retarded

>>12931375
well you could look at some studies/university texts

https://www.ice.cam.ac.uk/course/homer-vergil-texts-and-contexts-greek-and-roman-epic

https://ora.ox.ac.uk/objects/uuid:d9dfd2b3-662f-4672-a02c-20ecde3c7b0f

i don't know why you'e trying so hard, just to stop us from thinking you didn't know it could also be spelt vergil

>>12927037
...........sounds dope ...

>he hasn't read Pharsalia

>>12925239
but that's not the prose translation. the translation by J. W. Mackail is literally my favorite work of fiction. disappointed to not see this brought up in the thread so far. it of course probably doesn't stack up to knowing latin but it's the next best thing. shit chills my spine and gets me so excited, the only book I've reread multiple times. it's available on gutenberg and librivox has done it as well.

>>12925239
The Odyssey is pleb filter shit, the Iliad and Aeneid are good.

>>12934422
How on earth do you arrive at this opinion (without massively misunderstanding the Iliad at least)

>>12934497
The conflicts in the Iliad and the Aeneid are more meaningful than in the Odyssey, where the protagonist is only driven by an instinctive desire to return to home.
Plus the former two are more elevated in plot, subject matter, character, etc.

>propaganda cannot be admired for its craft
plebs, all of you.

>>12934511
The prominent conflict in the Iliad was the petty arguments between the Greeks.

>>12934635
Sure, but Achilles and Hector makes some very non-petty decisions - nothing like that in the Odyssey

>>12934676
Achilles is the most petty of all of them, Homer’s attitude towards him is total irony. And the odyssey is a different kind of story to the Iliad that doesn’t make it bad (I don’t think it’s a masterpiece like the Iliad but it’s certainly better than the tedious Aeneid)

The Aeneid absolutely must be read in the original Latin if you really want to understand how great it is.

The way the meter speeds up and slows down around certain concepts, or how his word order makes your eyes rock back and forth across the page during a scene on a boat are experiences you can't get in translation

W-was Turnus the good guy all along?
The actual hero in the tragedy, who according to how Aristoteles defines Tragedies is honorable, gets befallen by some unavoidable ill fate (Aneas bringing the trojans) and no matter his righteous efforts dies in vain.
>>12934422
this

>>12935410
Other languages have alternating meter

>>12935410
>having to reread words from earlier in the sentence
you don't know Latin

>>12935410
J.W. Mackail's prose translation.

>>12928310
>go to /lit/
>doesnt know french, spanish, german, latin

>>12930973
>he took 3 years to learn Latin
oh no no no no

>>12929257
I read it in Portuguese and it's just okay

The Lusiads is the greatest epic of all time

turning in my essay in an hour, wish me luck

>>12939220
bona fortuna