/lit/ - Literature

>>12906578
Redpill me on Alan Watts.

>>12906578
The Holy Bible.

>>12906583
Everything you think you know is an illusion, especially your sense of self. Even science doesn't properly explain the universe. There is no "you," everything is just the universe. All is one. It is through how the brain makes sense of the world by putting things in categories and believes what seems to be "common sense" in society that leads to our fallacious beliefs. It's not a long book. Got it off Library Genesis. 120 pages. If you read it carefully, it should change your view of the world.

>>12906585
Why?

>>12906583
He's more style than substance. His writing makes you feel good, but doesn't actually incite any real change in behavior. He has no practical advice. He says nothing new or even particularly insightful.

Pick up Manual of Insight by Sayadaw (the slim volume is also fine) or The Mind Illuminated. Go to accesstoinsight and read up on sila, the three marks of existence, the four noble truths and the five hinderances. You'll then be able to achieve your own insights, which is Watt's point anyway.

>>12906583
He was to Buddhism what JBP is to Christianity. That is he had interesting original ideas but zero real understanding of the things he was talking about.

>>12906606
Cool stories that have informed my moral system. I just find the stories so great, the moral messages are useful as well. And people have been studying it for centuries, so I know every time I read it I might catch something new.

>>12906613
He digests Advaita Vedanta and as a result you get a simplified teaching more reachable to the masses than 500+ page religious books.

>>12906620
What is the moral message of Genesis 19:30-38?

>>12906631
incest is wicked and women (and all people i guess) must control their sexual urges when it means moral wrongdoing.
that's how i interpret it anyways.

>>12906678
Where does it say incest is wrong? It paints a light that they were trying to do good and preserve the family line.

>>12906627
Just because he can reach them doesn't mean he's helping them. Alan Watts is for people who like the idea of awakening more than actually achieving it. It's good entry point but far from important or even useful.

>>12906703
Have you read The Book? What more can be contributed to awakening? The illusion that you must continue to gain knowledge in order to become awakened.

>>12906697
>Tries to force me to acknowledge the morals of the Jewish part of the bible

If Jesus isn't being mentioned, it isn't the bible as far as I'm concerned. The only parts that I pay any attention to are direct quotes from Jesus. Not Jewish trickery myths.

>>12906613
I'd say this. He's got a way of talking that's interesting to listen to, but I don't know if he offers much in substance.

>>12907020
Wow kiddo, look I don't want to insult you because your heart is clearly in the right place, but you sound like a extremely naive person.

>"What more can be contributed to awakening [besides knowledge] ?"

hahahahahahahahhaaha you will know with time.

>>12907095
Would be better if you just gave some examples instead of just pointing out naivety.

>>12906583
As others have said, he’s more style over substance. As a western man he’s not a bad medium and entry point for understanding Eastern philosophy. IMO you’d be better off starting with Eknath’s Easwaran’s triage of translations. His editions of the Upanishads, Dhammapada, and the Bagavid Gita. Each come with a lengthy and well-written introductions to the primary documentation and how it’s applicable to the modern world and the modern mind. He also has better credentials.

>>12907078
Jesus was a Jew who acknowledged the Old Testament as the work of his father and foretelling of his own time on Earth. He says that in the Gospels so do you ignore that as well?

Proclus Commentary on Plato's Timaeus

>>12907078
>The only parts that I pay any attention to are direct quotes from Jesus.
you mean the parts where he directly references the events of the old testament

>>12906697
they are cursed and lot gets mad at them when he wakes up,

>>12907078
>the Jewish part of the bible
top kek, and wwwweeewwww

>>12907078
>Only I may decide what parts of the bible I follow

see you in hell bro :)

>>12907837
((credentials)))
You see goyim, this is a man who knows a thing or two about licking boots.

>>12907723
Not him, but taking acid, listening to Alan Watts and coming to the conclusion that "I am just the universe experiencing itself through the subjective lens of a person, maaan" changes nothing. It doesn't reduce or eliminate suffering. Hell, it doesn't even change your day-to-day mindstates and tendencies. You're still prone to ill-will, to aversion, to addictions. It is literally feel-good "nothing to worry about maaan" philosophy. And it is indeed philosophy more than spirituality. It is all about intellectual/conceptual views, not about experiential wisdom.

>>12907020
Not the anon you're replying to but
>The illusion that you must continue to gain knowledge in order to become awakened.
I imagine you subscribe to the "You ARE the Buddha! You are already enlightened and you just didn't know it!" thing.
I'll just drop this nice take I found online of that view:
>[It's] "like saying: you are already a concert pianist, you just have to realize it, or you already are a nuclear physicist, you just have to realize it… [It's] like saying to a severe paranoid schizophrenic: you already are as sane as anyone and do not need to take your medicines and should just follow the voices that tell you to kill people, or to a person with heart disease: just keep smoking and eating fried pork skins and you will be healthy…or saying to a greedy, corrupt, corporate-raiding, white-collar criminal, Fascist, alcoholic wife-beater: hey, Dude, you are a like, beautiful perfect flower of the Now Moment, already enlightened (insert toke here), you are doing and not-doing just fine, like wow, so keep up the good work, Man"

>>12908554
>guy who is actually Indian, spent his life studying religion and culture while growing up in a Hindu family, met Gandhi, was actually able to read Vedic and Buddhist texts in their actual language and translate them eloquently

vs

>american guy who read a bit about eastern philosophy

>>12907078
Always so funny to see anti-Semitic Christians. The irony is just too much.

>>12908689
>>12908655

It is kind of sad that OP probably ditched this thread, because I really think that he actually probably could use some serious advice.

>>12908655
If the realization that you are the universe experiencing itself isn't in a t way revolutionary to your conditional comprehension of reality, and as a concept its relationship to metaphysics, then you haven't understood it as anything more than a metaphor for something unconscious you haven't come into contact with psychologically.

>>12909253
This view assumes that there is in fact an essential objective universe out there seperate from experience. This assumption cannot be known one way or another. Also it should be noted that the feelings of profundity while tripping on psychedelics are chemically induced, artificial, which is why stoner-level observations will appear to be mind-blowing in addition to the "we are all one" thing.

>>12909290
No it doesn't; the only axiom to be derived from the analysis of the aphorism, to my ability, is that you are punctuated as a consciousness by the necessary dependence on reality as medium of interaction simulated or actuarial, makes no difference; if you cant differentiate the states they are not a part of objective reality.

Arent you familiar with the concept of superpositional states?

>>12909253
>Revolutionary to your conditional comprehension of reality.
This doesn't contradict what I said. My point was that such a "realization" does nothing, is useless. Such a realization is ultimately arbitrary.
>>12908655
>It doesn't reduce or eliminate suffering. Hell, it doesn't even change your day-to-day mindstates and tendencies. You're still prone to ill-will, to aversion, to addictions.

>>12909290
Psychedelics facilitate dialogue between the unconscious and the ego (consciousness). What you are seeing is important, it's the most important part of your experience as a man; the unconscious symbology of the spirit, of the reasoning of the logos.

If what you find there is haunting, dark, vile, and true evil then that is because you are human and these things are fundamental particles of your very being.

If they scare you, you may not wish to pursue their integration. And you will be left where you seem to be.

>>12909386
That's a whole lot of conceptual metaphysical speculation, friend.

>>12909410
It's based on jungian psychoanalysis of the experience, and I'm not your friend, buddy.

>>12909439
And this assumes Jungian psychoanalysis is true, that it has a correct grasp of reality, the nature of the phenomenon of the sense of self, and being.
So by taking a Jungian psychoanalytic approach to tripping on psychedelic drugs, one can realize insights into the nature of ultimate reality (spirit, consciousness, fundamental particles of your very being)?

>>12909439
>>12909386
based

>>12909386
>Psychedelics facilitate dialogue between the unconscious and the ego
Is there anything else they do?

>>12906583
LSD preacher

>>12906604
>Everything you think you know is an illusion, especially your sense of self
retard alert

>>12909544
Present your shadow to you front and center.

>>12909743
Not the anon you're replying to, I disagree with him, but consider this excerpt, on the topic "What is the self?"

>>12909472
Jungian psychoanalysis is the best there is. Period. I invite you to convince anyone otherwise.

>>12909787
The question wasn't regarding the quality of Jungian psychoanalysis in relation to other forms of psychoanalysis, but
>>12909472
>So by taking a Jungian psychoanalytic approach to tripping on psychedelic drugs, one can realize insights into the nature of ultimate reality (spirit, consciousness, fundamental particles of your very being)?

>>12909804
Well, yeah, obviously. How else are you going to analyze the metaphysics of our reality? With a microscope and a spectrometer?

>>12909853
>How else are you going to analyze the metaphysics of our reality?
dialectic obviously

>>12909853
Considering all the traditions in the world dedicated to understanding mind and consciousness, with far deeper roots than psychoanalysis, I think it would be very difficult to suggest that Jungian psychoanalysis is the best way to realize truths of ultimate reality.
Psychoanalysis analyzes the contents of mind (thoughts, dreams, mental formations) and not its nature.

>>12909787
You just sound like a retard that hasn't read enough Deleuze. D&G absolutely demolish Jung. That is the whole point, that is why they are so famous.

>>12909867
What better than a dialectic process being opened with the unconscious, then?

>>12909853
No better way than analyzing moment-to-moment experience directly and clearly firsthand.

>>12910067
the Unconscious itself is not above dialectical scrutiny

>>12910088
You are replying to someone who clearly doesn't know what dialectic even means. Don't waste your breathe.

>>12909253
>you are the universe experiencing itself
Depending on interpretation either vacuously true or objectively false

>>12910416
nah bro it is like solipsism mayn, like eveyrhting is just my mind so like, you might not be real my mind just makes up everytihng in front of me so like. Its almost like *takes a fat bong rip* i'm the entire universe all at once becasey everything only exists in my head so like *snorts a line of molly* the universe is me and i clearly experience myself, and for all I know the only thing I know is me so I am everything. heh time for some munchies.

>>12906619
You've got it totally backwards.
Alan Watts didn't express too many new ideas but did have a very good understanding of what he was talking about

>>12907837
>credentials
You have certainly not understood as much as you think you have

>>12910469
Maybe Vedanta and Taoism but Watts didn't understand Buddhism for shit

>>12909016
What? Antisemitism in christianity was extremely common, in fact the norm, until only about 60 years ago, due to that whole rejection of Christ business

>>12910491
This is almost a meme with Buddhists at this point.
Every know nothing Buddhist loves to say other people don't understand Buddhism. I've almost never heard a Buddhist under 60 actually voice respect for another Buddhist.

>>12910518
Ah yes I'm sorry Buddhism is actually about dropping acid and realizing that you already are the Buddha you just didn't realize it yet and also everything is perfect just the way it is and the purpose in life is to just live

>>12910529
There it is

>>12910518
Many people in the West unironically don't even have a wikipedia page-level knowledge of Buddhism. It has become so commercialized and appropriated by hippies, yea it actually is rare that people even know what it's about.

>>12910518
Part of this is that Alan Watts is legitimately a very good introduction step towards Buddhism although he doesn't really talk about Buddhism specifically or exclusively.
But then something happens when people start learning about Buddhism at a deeper level and especially among young people, they become dismissive and snooty and have an awful tendency to look down on others. I don't know why, but it does seem to be very common in young Buddhists in particular.

>>12910088
And you won't be able to deduce that without opening the dialogue?

>>12910573
Well, the answer to your posited and ostensible quandary is that Westerners who imbibe the ideas of the East are unable, in a very technical sense, to cleanly impress the cultural ethos of those Buddhist philosophies upon themselves; which would leave anyone bitter and unable to look further inwards. How could they? They've fucked up their own capacity for affective cultural congruence.

>>12910669
Wow uh... racist much?

>>12908655
>experiential wisdom
>"I am more enlightened than you."

>>12910495
Yes, but in his case it seemed more of the /pol/ variety of anti-Semitism, involving the hatred of Jewishness-in-itself, while simultaneously willfully following a faith that is a direct offshoot of, and member in, the Jewish one. To hate Jews is one matter, but to be a Christian who does so is merely to have enmity toward one's older brother.

>>12910927
Didn't bother the crusaders when the Jews fought against them on the side of the Muslims.

>>12908655
>It doesn't reduce or eliminate suffering. Hell, it doesn't even change your day-to-day mindstates and tendencies.
And you know this how? What didn't work for you could work for someone else.
You'd criticize 16 year old Ramana Maharshi but I'd argue once you have the awakening, you can always go back to it and regularly remind yourself, there is no need to go to great lengths as you think there is.

>>12908689
>I imagine you subscribe to the "You ARE the Buddha! You are already enlightened and you just didn't know it!" thing.

Actually, no. I don't want to become or be the Buddha. I am fully content with not having any more experiences. If I were to cease existence right now, close my eyes and fade into nothingness, I would not argue against it. Not in a suicidal or depression way, but as in I am not attached to anything. Nor do I have a bucket list of things that need to be accomplished or acquired.
I will admit, this is in theory. In reality, I do have one attachment, and that is the grief my fading into nothingness would cause my family because they do not understand. Though all may be illusory, it's very difficult to shake some things off.

>>12909202
Actually, I fell asleep. What advice would you like to offer?

>>12909776
>I disagree with him
Which part?

Also, pic you posed is just Ship of Theseus.

>>12909253
Whatever Watt's credentials and personal integrity, I agree profoundly with his notion of being the universe experiencing itself - a creation of nature no different to the trees, the waters, the air, and everything else one could name. I wish this perspective would find its way into the scientific naturalist's viewpoint, and become more mainstream that way.

>>12909787
There's a reason Freud distanced himself from Jung. His views became too eccentric. Not blaming him, as psychology was still in its infancy, but a little too mystical.

>>12910416
Which part of "you" is separate from the universe?

>>12910491
>Maybe Vedanta and Taoism but Watts didn't understand Buddhism for shit
If you understand Vedanta then you mostly understand Buddhism, the only step left is to apply it through practice.

>>12910540
And if he sees this, and doesn't see what's wrong with his post, here are some observations:

>pretentious
>I know more about Buddhism than you
>I am more enlightened that you
>hurr durr you dropped acid that's the only way you could have gotten to any realization
>r/iamverysmart

>>12910545
All my friends think it's about yoga and meditation. I do neither.

>>12910573
>an awful tendency to look down on others
This shouldn't be the case if you realize the will isn't free and there is nothing special about you.

>>12910767
He's right. As a westerner, it's not as easy when everyone around you has a western mindset, you are both seen as the outlier and regularly hear the western ideals in conversation. Your environment plays a big role in your life. It's like trying to be on a healthy diet when all your friends are eating a large amount of fast food next to you every day.

>>12911112
Cringe.

What do you see as a "western mid set"

>>12911017
This excerpt from The Book stood out to me:
>You had just forgotten who you are. All this comes much more easily with the collaboration of friends. When we are children, our other selves, our families, friends, and teachers, do everything possible to confirm us in the illusion of separateness—to help us to be genuine fakes, which is precisely what is meant by "being a real person." For the person, from the Latin persona, was originally the megaphone-mouthed mask used by actors in the open-air theaters of ancient Greece and Rome, the mask through (per) which the sound (sonus) came.

>I wish this perspective would find its way into the scientific naturalist's viewpoint, and become more mainstream that way.
The very reason it won't is because the notion of self is constantly reinforced by our environment. The identity of (insert your name here) is reinforced every day by family and friends.

>>12911116
Not that anon, but it depends on your social class. In general though, western life revolves around the concept of self-realization, self-aggrandization. This is true at every level.

>>12911112
Sense of ego and the need to reinforce it in order to feel special. This also furthers an "us vs them" mentality as the ego thinks "I am better and more important than others."
This notion will remain as the economy is dependent on people buying things that satisfy their egos and those in power wanting to keep that power again as a result of their egos.

>>12911116
Meant this reply to you >>12911135

>>12910927
No, it's not. The Christian disdain for Judaism is directly related to the fact that Christ came to fulfil the law and Caiaphas and his lot demanded he be crucified for it.
This was an explicit breaking of the Jewish covenant with God and the church has taught for nearly 2000 years since that Judaism was blasphemy and pretty severe blasphemy at that since it culminated in deicide and them losing their way from God.
It wasn't necessarily hatred since they could be saved through conversion from Judaism but there was never any friendship between Jews and the church.
See Augustine, Aquinas, and many prayers of the catholic church prior to the 1950s for many examples of this.

>>12911017
It caught on in physics through Bohm but he fell out of favour so his philosophy of physics did too. There were other factors such as his theories failing to match certain experiments, the rise of the reductionists, but certainly some physicists at least still like this sort of thing.

>>12911087
perhaps acid was mentioned because the discussion is about Watts and he advocated for its use for spiritual purposes

>>12911026
oh, fuck you dude. tell me how the idea that everything is sex and everyone just wants to fuck their mom isnt eccentric? tell me thats not kind of a mystical assumption - but not too mystical for you, right? because you love sex and the idea of sex

>>12909787
lol, read this

https://ignotascintilla.files.wordpress.com/2017/07/renc3a9-guc3a9non-the-misdeeds-of-psychoanalysis-1.pdf

I come back to this thread and absolutely no one has competently contributed anything.

Mediocre.

>>12911945
I see that point but you can have the same insights with or without acid.

>>12912448
you're the mediocre one, just look at this post you just made. faggot.

>>12912428
He had to root his theory in something to steer people away from the occult.

>>12912448
What were you expecting? Maybe you should contribute more instead of consuming.

>>12910573
>But then something happens when people start learning about Buddhism at a deeper level and especially among young people, they become dismissive and snooty and have an awful tendency to look down on others.
This is one reason why I have a higher regard for Advaita, I seem to notice a lot of people who get into Buddhism but them are still very spiteful, calling other icchantikas, saying they will never escape suffering, attacking other people who disagree with them ferociously and so on. Advaita doesn't leave any room for that because at the most fundamental level there is no difference between you and others.

>>12912467
>>12912476
Here are my posts, refute them, nerds.

>>12909253
>>12909386
>>12909439
>>12909787
>>12909853
>>12910669


>>12911026
Also, to this fucking goober, what historian are you citing here, exactly? Your ass wearing a professor's cap, fart-puffing a tobacco pipe out the hole?

That is exactly and precisely the opposite of what occurred.

lads, anyone else think a spiritualist/quasi ascetic anarchist society is the absolute ideal? Am I a retard? For clarification, I don’t think it could realistically happen

>>12912506
Post 1 and 6 I agree.
2,3,4 is unfalsifiable.
5. Jungian psychoanalysis is not the only way that can be done. You can have the same insight through reading and obtaining knowledge of how the world works, comparing it to your experience, and assessing whether it is plausible.

>>12912506
>Also, to this fucking goober, what historian are you citing here, exactly?
Citing Jung faggot

>>12912506
>>12912571
The Undiscovered Self, Carl Jung, Page 35

>>12912571
Never mind, I thought you were referring to >>12912428

>>12912560
There are competing models. I would say Peterson's Maps of Meaning comes close to competing as its own schema.

>>12911235
Dang, that sounds like it would've been so awesome.

>>12912740
>>12912506
This joke has gone too far

>>12913117
Have you ever read maps of meaning, anon?

>>12913136
No. Can I get a quick rundown.

>>12906604
>Reading a book about doing acid instead of just doing acid

>>12907078
>hates jews
>is Christian

>>12913191
What's the problem? On Holy Thursday the Orthodox Church condemns the Jews for deicide and asks God to give them their just reward.

>>12913164
>Ad hominems someone's statement.
>Then admits he hasn't read the work in question.
>"Can I get a quick rundown on a 600+ page technical textbook on the methodological analysis of affective behavioral schematics and their relationship to the metaphysics of the unconscious. "

If there are any mods in this thread I demand this man banned.

>>12913246
>metaphysics
Yikes! Now I don’t need to read it

>>12913179
The book is not about doing acid...
In fact it makes me want to do acid even less

>>12913191
yea that is what the New Testament does to you

>>12913246
So I need to read his entire book to be able to grasp the most basic description of his ideas? Wow, truly the greatest philosopher/ psychologist of all time.

>>12906613
Agree that he is more style than substance but I don't think he's masquerading as attempting to incite change in behavior

>>12913448
When it comes to sophisticated ideas, yes. You need to read many, many completed texts.

Reading the synopsis on wikipedia, or relying on memes from 4chan doesn't qualify you to comment or contribute to the elaboration of the text.

It qualifies you to shut the fuck up and only speak when I want a layman's opinion on an expounded aspect of the abstract ideas hitherto referred to as the works by which you are ignorant; meaning all of them.

You fucking goober.

>>12913541
>getting this angry over defending some self-help charlatan
I'm sure there is some general idea you could pull from the book. Also, news flash since you Petersonfags never seem to realize this, this thread is not about Peterson, though I know you can't help but bring him up everywhere you post.

>>12913550
Have you considered that retards like you who hold in their heads a strawman puppet are degrading legitimate dialogue with your presence?

>"Well, Peterson's elucidation of Jung's work holds particular relevance in this respect, you see ...
>"Durr hurr self help charlatan lmao petersonfags BTFO"

You haven't read ANYTHING. You're a clown running naked through a lecture hall believing yourself a part of the academic community. Fuck off, faggot.

>>12913699
I call Peterson a self-help charlatan because that is what he is best known for (though his fans such as you would disagree with the charlatan part). He roams around the country with people like Dave Rubin and Ben Shapiro giving lectures to young men telling them to clean their penis and pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Anything related to maps of meaning has taken a back seat to this for whatever reason, most likely because it is much more monetarily rewarding. You don't have to read his book written over two decades ago to see how much his character has changed.
>You're a clown running naked through a lecture hall believing yourself a part of the academic community
Actually that is a pretty accurate description of Peterson himself. I might use that line from now on.

>>12913805
Imagine everything that you think you deserve, and haven't received due to the injustice of the world; the divide between these two realities, one where you're an unread charlatan masquerading as an educated man behind the mask of anonymity, and the other, where you are a respected academic authority on everything you value; that divide is nothing but your ego and arrogance forbidding you to read and learn. Because you already know everything, dont you, faggot.

Educating the common man about the wisdom and profundity of Jung is not charlatnism, it's a sorely needed service to masculinity and patriarchy. Not that you understand what those are.

Not that you even know about Jung. You've never read a word he wrote.

>>12914041
Like I said I call Peterson a charlatan for who he is now. Maybe when he wrote Maps of Meaning over 20 years ago he was a different person, in fact he probably was, but that doesn't mean much to me now. If you think Maps of Meaning (or something by Jung) is the most important book there is (as that is what the thread is about) then more power to you. I can't convince you otherwise because I haven't read everything Peterson has ever wrote and that is your apparent standard.

>>12914041
Jung and psychoanalysis is Marxist, spook drivel. At least its not lacan

>>12914233
>spook
What isn't in your eyes? Seems pretty vacuous.
>Marxist
Now what's wrong with that?

>>12913354
Have you never met a person who has recently done acid or any other psychedelic? The idea of unity is the biggest revelation they can imagine and its what they rave on about all the time. Could've spent 10$ on a tab and thought of the whole book yourself.

>>12914214
>>12914487
You sound like an extremely shitty person with a messy room desu

>>12914619
I hope messy room isn't your criteria for shitty person

>>12914689
What's messy is relative, and why the room is messy is relevant. Do you know why his room is messy in that image?

>>12914689
*frantic googling*

>>12914707
I see the goalposts have moved from messy room to messy room for the right reasons. Suddenly when it's Peterson with the messy room this is now a factor.

>>12913485
I didn't say he was. Only that if your objective is to change your own behavior, his works will not offer any practical advice.

>>12913208
I'm not sure who are more misguided, the catholics or the orthodox

>>12911184
Jesus was supposed to die for humanity's sins. And so, he did. It was part of the plan. To be butthurt about the jews doing the condemnation is, hilariously, to miss the entire point. Also, catholics are seriously misguided for worshiping saints like a bunch of pagans. They are actually very pagan and disobey the ultimate authority on christianity (which is Jesus, not these pretenders known as popes).
>>12910929
>crusaders
controlled by catholics.

>>12907078
>Holds resentment, ergo disobeys Jesus
>Still claims to like Jesus
That's like someone liking Trump as president but hating almost all of his ideas.

>>12906583
"Philosopher" who worked with the CIA and communist Russia that was tasked with preaching "peace and love" to bring down the west.

Surprised no one mentioned this one yet.

>>12914938
what am i looking at

>>12914775
You're using a picture of him with a messy room to discredit 600+ pages of venerated and highly respected scientific literature.

That which can be presented without context can be dismissed without context.

>>12915074
First the standard for shitty person was a messy room, then it was a messy room for the wrong reasons, now it is a messy room unless they have written a 600+ page book some time in their life. Get the story straight pal.

>>12915212
Where did I or anyone else say the standard for a shitty person was a messy room you colossal retard.

>>12915218
First the standard for shitty person was a messy room, then it was a messy room for the wrong reasons, then it is a messy room unless they have written a 600+ page book some time in their life, now having a messy room doesn't even make someone a shitty person. You're all over the place man.

>>12906583
>>12906613
>>12906619
>>12907837
Two classic issues involved... One is the inflated criticism invited by popularity, the other is the illusion of simplicity involved with a lot of eastern philosophy for those who haven't given the material much consideration.

I've studied eastern philosophy in and out of the institution(where Watts has actually been cited), and given it a tremendous amount of thought. Only recently have I started paying specific attention to Watts and I've been impressed. He absolutely knows what he's talking about and articulates it well. I think people trashing him either haven't really paid mind to him or the subject. In fact, I'd wager that if you find someone trashing Alan Watts, it's a red flag of them pretending to know what they're talking about, and that the illusion will crumble under the slightest pressure.

Alan Watts' greatest flaw is an interest in appealing to the masses, and occasionally simplifying material for that purpose. Daring to let go of pretension is fatal to one's credibility in circles driven by pretension ie most of this board

>>12914041
Indeed, Peterson does play one role:
Exposing people to better thinkers.

For people who would have never read Jung and Nietzsche and such on their own, it's valuable to encounter Peterson, and be exposed to some of the ideas, albeit diluted. Then they need to move on. Peterson is perfectly mediocre and ultimately a waste of time.

>>12915349
>A waste of time.
Has literally no one on this board read Maps of Meaning?

>This borderline rockstar scientist who is in to the top 0.1% of cited researchers in the world is a sucky little nobody because I SAY so.
Ok, bud.

>>12914833
Catholicism is just one example. Almost every single branch of christianity and Islam condemns Judaism for the death of Christ.
And you might think they've missed the point and should really respect Judaism for some reason but I guarantee it's your understanding which is falling short.
Just because Christ was going to die anyway doesn't absolve Judas of his betrayal any more than it does Caiaphas of his. Caiaphas and co were given chances to show mercy and they declined.
Not to mention after Christ came, regardless of whether or not they were personally responsible, that signified to the Jews that the old covenant had been superseded by the new way with Christ. Judaism was therefore illegitimate.
It has only been extremely recently and under very dubious circumstances that Christianity has been intertwined with this absolutely bizarre strain of Zionism especially in the USA where they for some reason hold Judaism and Israel in some kind of paternal reverence.
This is totally unjustified, no matter which way you look at it.

>>12915374
>he's well known therefore credible
no that doesn't work sorry

I won't accept Jordan Peterson, because I've listened to him and heard a bunch of shallow, equivocating bullshit dressed up in a scholarly tone. I dislike him, because he isn't that good at what he does. I've read Nietzsche, I've read Jung, I've consumed plenty of commentary on the related subjects. Seeing Peterson was like being fed McDonald's. I know where to get a real burger, in fact, most other establishments have better burgers.

>>12913191
Ashkenazis are no descendants of David. Cease.

>>12906578
Alan Watts is the shit. I don't know of any other philosopher less interested in opinions but rather cold truths than he is. Extremely abstract thinking. Very open minded. To a theist his ideas are incompatible.

As some posters have said he doesn't incite change in behavior so much as change the way one thinks about the world.

Much better speaker than he is writer though. His lectures are all on YouTube. Give them a shot, some better than others, there are some special moments in there.

>>12915590
>To a theist his ideas are incompatible.
Explain please.

>>12915602
He studied Christianity in a seminary for a long while, his original goal was to be a priest or a part of the clergy or something. Deep in it, kool-aid and all that. Epiphany one day and then it's off to Eastern philosophy. So broad understanding of East and West religion/ideology.

Rather than expound, I'd challenge any theists here to approve of Alan. I don't think there'll be any takers.

And Alan never slanders religion, and if you were to walk in on one of his lectures you'd swear he was proselytizing Hinduism or Catholicism as he is educated in all the terminology and history.

He's hard to sum up, but he's the guy that taught me that this sort of secular pantheism (I'm not doing justice to the nomenclature) is much more powerful than any theism. IMO. It's red pill stuff for sure.

>>12915689
I messed up the history a bit, no epiphany moment, he was raised western, studied eastern, then studied western.

>>12915462
>I dont understand what scientific citations are and what they mean.
God help this poor deluded fucking retard.

>>12914487
I've done it twice. I did not have that revelation or experience ego death from either trip. In fact I focused on how to improve my ego at the time, which made it grow even more. It mostly made me see that the brain processes sensory information to give you a view of reality and the drug alters that processing, making this distorted view of reality seem strange. It also made me see the social games we play are fake or arbitrary. I've had more profound experiences reading about perception, neuroscience, and philosophy than through psychedelic use. It's interesting as an experience but won't make you a genius.

>>12910441
Its the opposite you moron. The phrase is saying you don't exist, the self is an illusion, and there is only universe. Not the other way around.
not that either way is particularly insightful

>>12906604
does anyone else feel an extremely deep sense of revulsion at the idea that 'everything is one' as expounded in various philosophical and religious doctrines?

It seems to sterilize and wash over the very real conscious experience we have of separate awareness, good, bad, the types of things that exist in the universe etc.

>>12915314
Finally someone here that's not full of themselves. I've finished The Book and I don't necessarily feel like I need further study (not as in I know everything but rather content with what I do know), but if you had to recommend further study, what would it be?

>>12916031
Not really a deep sense of revulsion for me as much as I think it's baloney and based on unprovable metaphysical assumptions.

>>12916037
Probably pick a tradition that speaks to you and check out the threads there are about it, check out what they recommend as reading material: this board has Hindu threads, Taoist threads, Buddhist threads...etc

>>12916042
it bothers me aesthetically and morally on an deep level. It seems like a giant levelling or homogenization of a beautiful varied intensity into a bland mass, a belittling of the very real suffering people endure, just an erasure of everything that matters

>>12916054
I'd say it does bother me morally a bit too, on the occassion that one takes it as a basis for belief that there is nothing that should be done or needs to be done, that there is no significance or importance in helping others...etc.

>>12915590
Which YouTube lecture should I start with?

>>12915935
I agree with the second frame. If you want citations then read a different book.

>>12916052
Nice, probably gonna go with the Upanishads as I resonated with the Ashtavakra Gita

>>12906703
t. Unawakened

>>12916102
Keep in mind I would also explore all the options at least briefly in addition to following what speaks to you

>>12915314
This, essentially. The key to understanding Alan Watts is that he's speaking from a level of both sincerity of what he knows and understanding for the people he's talking to. He doesn't have the egotistical pretension you find embedded in most people who talk about philosophy because he's not trying to debate you.

>>12916031
You don't have to abandon morality. You help others when you feel like it. You try to avoid causing suffering in others. The universe may be "one" but you still experience the universe from the perspective of a human being, so you're not limited by "nothing matters."

>>12916120
Noted.

>>12916139
But the good and the bad are both part of the One right? Theyre the same thing. From the perspective of enlightenment a serial killer and a saint are both just 'the one' along with everything else

>>12916158
Not him but I like the religious traditions that maintain that murder/hatred/malevolence are inherently rooted in delusion, and that the perpetrator of such hatred is suffering tremendously themself.

>>12916192
aren't delusion and suffering part of the One?

>>12916197
I don't believe in the One or eternal Atman, hence the "not him"

>>12916158
Correct. But as human beings we should not focus on causing suffering but reducing it. Advaita for philosophy with buddhism as a guide.

>>12916237
>as human beings we should not focus on causing suffering but reducing it.
but why? How is justified metaphysically if it's all literally the same thing

>>12916237
>syncretism

>>12916246
You need a reason why? Do you enjoy suffering?

>>12916257
Sometimes believing two separate ideas is more pragmatic than absolutism. Take relativity and quantum mechanics for example.

>>12911058
What part of you is different from you reflection in the mirror?

>>12906583
Subversive peddling Indian philosophy and mind altering drugs

>>12918464
What part of your vision is objective?

>>12918863
All of it

>>12906578
Dukakis in a tank

>>12919468
So the world outside objectively has color?

>>12919510
Objective: it relates to an object. Vision always relates to an object or else it would not be a vision but something else

I've completed philosophy. There is only hoping to stumble upon enlightenment. Nothing else.

>>12906578
>185 posts
>2 or so books

The one time I can meme and mean it.
>my diary desu

I mean it, once you've written down your latest entry, find the patterns in it, what is hindering you, what are the good parts, why did you mention "___" like that, in those words.
If you pay attention to your own perspective and hone it into gold, sure, your diary is probably the most useful book you can have, especially since it is the only book where you are the protagonist (hopefully)

>>12906606
informed our society and history more than any other book