/lit/ - Literature

>>12890020
who needs a criticism, just look at Venezuela

>>12890080
Not a Marxist state.
The result of a brow 87 IQ population too. Not Marxism.

>>12890020
There aren't many good criticisms of it because most modern capitalists are hypermaterialists themselves.

>>12890080
That's not really Marxism. The biggest problem with Marx is that almost all his work is negative; it's a critique of capitalism, of other socialists, of philosophy in general. Yet it has very little substance when it comes to proposing alternatives to capitalism, or how the socialist future will come to be, and what it'll look like. In fact, planning too much would even be seen as some form idealism by some communists, which is why you get the giant clusterfuck states that communism always seems to result into.

>>12890020
take it easy man

>>12890147
That what makes Marx good. Instead of being utopian he understood designing socialism would be retarded.

>>12890020
Right wing metapolitical strategy memo 2019: Instead of attempting to criticise Marxism(which is itself critique) we should shift to claming Marx as right wing, so leftists are force to denounce him and his ideas. In this day and age it is the right is proactive, the left are the managerial guardians of the status quo, purely reactive, attempting to contain anything that could remotely be constructed as right wing.

>>12890170
>we should break down society and not plan for any alternative, that would be idealism
Great fucking idea

>>12890176
Yes, it is. Instead of being an autist who would think up his utopian socialism in his head he understood that socialism would need to be adapted to circumstances.

>>12890184
Then why was it never able to do so and always degenerated into state capitalism? You can't seriously say "we should abolish all countries, all cultural structures, and all financial institutions and we'll figure it out as we go along".

>>12890190
Marx never really said that. He implied that capitalism would bleed into communism once sufficient development had occurred. He was no revolutionary like Lenin.

>>12890190
>State capitalism
Not this word again, mein gott.
Your whole post is retarded and if anything, it's criticism of anarchism, not Marxism.

None of the things you mention is something a Marxist thinks, neither did they become "state capitalism" whatever that means, I guess China can be somewhat called that or Russia during NEP.

>>12890200
Right, so he was just wrong and made predictions that didn't come true.

>>12890210
Depends on how long you're willing to give him. Take a lot at your quote before and ask yourself if the west is now closer to achieving those things now or in Marx's time.
Turns out Capital wants a lot of the same stuff.

>>12890203
>there was a state and there was capital
>it's not state capitalism though
You're one of those idiots who suck off modern China as well, huh?

>>12890084
>>12890147
>b-but it wasn't realy marxism

fuck off

Castoriades.

>>12890220
>Depends on how long you're willing to give him
a-any day n-now...

Human nature

>>12890223
>>there was a state and there was capital
USSR was Socialist and China is a mixed economy, It had the working class control the means of production and a planned economy. Capitalism isn't when you have state and capital.
>You're one of those idiots who suck off modern China as well, huh?
Somewhat, I like China for defending Venezuela, Having good environmental policies and wanting to make the economy more socialist.

>>12890220
Eh, i'd say that the most important aspect, class consciousness, was false. There is no class consciousness, it never developed, because feeling solidarity with someone because you're both workers is far weaker than feeling solidarity with someone because he's from the same tribe. I usually think 'human nature' is a cop-out, but this is a case where biological tribalism was just far more powerful than anticipated.

The working class is still extremely reactionary and the intelligentsia all took a hard turn right with idpol.

>>12890241
>Capitalism isn't when you have state and capital.
then why do internet marxists always tell me it is
>I like china’s environmental policies
never mind didn’t realize you were legally brain dead

>>12890237
Marx never said "oh yeah it will just take a couple nights". It's literally once we reach the end of history. Right now most people think leftism is about identity politics so there have been a few setbacks

>>12890260
>end of history

How is this even a thing?

>>12890284
Its when there are no more class conflicts. You know, history is a series of class conflicts and so when there is no more change that could happen its the end

>>12890253
>then why do internet marxists always tell me it is
Capitalism is when there is privatepropertyin the means of production and theexploitation of wagelaborby capital. If by internet marxists you mean the "not true socialism" types I have to say they haven't actually read that much about the soviet union and believe the dumb western propaganda.
>never mind didn’t realize you were legally brain dead http://time.com/4810846/china-energy-climate-change-paris-agreement/?#

https://realclimatescience.com/2018/12/china-meets-their-co2-emissions-target/

Let me remind you this is only possible with a planned economy and not the dumb western "markets will fix everything" idioticy.

>>12890307
Well, formating got fucked up in this post.

>>12890020
anything to do with basic economics and anti-egalitarianism

>>12890321
based

>>12890299
This is only assuming that history is all just class conflict, which is itself a rather dubious assumption that isnt accepted outside of Marxist circles.

And there is no reason to assume that everything will suddenly be ok if classes cease to exist, as demagogues, religions and whoever wants to can just reignite the flames of conflict.

The Mirror of Production

Its to this day the best critique of Marxist philosophy from a Marxist.

>>12890329
>Baudrillard
>Marxist
i like him, but i wouldnt call him a Marxist

>>12890329
baudrillard was actually a SIEGE pilled esoteric hitlerist and a dues paying card carrying member of the Order of nine angles who somehow managed to infiltrate french leftist intelligentsia

>>12890020
>epistemological, economic, or historical grounds
Well epistemologically right away obviously the main attack is the issues of falsifiability but that can be extended to pretty much all economic/social science. You can go back and look at the entire development of German Idealism if you're autistic.
The standard hot take I suppose economically is just to mic drop with marginal utility. The whole debate around Bohm-Bawerk obviously... but even then you can still develop an "exploitation" theory without Marxs value theory and people have done it. See Geoff Hodgson.
I don't understand what you mean by "historical grounds"? If you mean the actual experience of 20th century state socialism and the international movement there's a lot on this see "The Communist Movement: From Comintern to Cominform"
vol 1 The Crisis of the Comminist Inernational:
marx2mao.com/PDFs/TCM75-1.pdf
vol 2 The Zenith of Stalinism:
marx2mao.com/PDFs/TCM75-2.pdf
Everything in this vein is obviously opinionated and biased.

>>12890327
It's ok to be in another religion as long as you aren't creating another interest group/class that exploits others

>>12890335

He was a Marxist until he denounced the productivist essence of Marxism and shifted towards Bataille's expenditure economy. But of course there is a melancholic disappointed 68 boomer element in a all of his writings that's specifically marxist.

>>12890347
>it's ok to be in another religion
You're already deviating from Marxism here; it's absolutely not okay to be religious, as it undermines the ontological fundaments of materialism.

The fact that religion persisted and made such a strong comeback is something Marx didn't foresee, and the whole thing collapses whenever someone says "i believe in God, and wish to act thereupon". He'll organize, he'll find followers, and then the end of history has to be revoked again.

>>12890346
>The standard hot take I suppose economically is just to mic drop with marginal utility
You type like a redditor. Stop that

>>12890359
Religious revivalism can be explained without accepting their claims at face value. A materialist explanation of religion doesn't mandate the elimination of it. The only place Marx even seriously touched upon religion was in On The Jewish Question:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/jewish-question/
He knew America was formally secular but very religious whereas Europe was still formally religious but de facto more secular.

>>12890020
It hasn't ever worked and will never work.

Marxism's power is in its ability to spread and evolve like a disease. It transforms itself into different and new forms that satisfy the general population's idiotic desire for peace and equality and friendship. Hilariously, it's managed to evolve into cultural Marxism which often directly opposes fiscal Marxism, where we have socialist parties spending 99% of their time demanding state enforced transsexual housing and disregarding workers.

HEY GUYS HEAR ME OUT

people aren't bad, they are just oppressed by some bad people and have been for all history
If we just like stop that and give equality to everyone then everyone will get what they deserve and be happy
But it won't work until the end of conflict and the destruction of categorization of people

>>12890020
It depends what you mean by Marxism. But no matter what, a critique of the dialectic is a critique of Marxism. Colonial critique has a long anti-Marxist strain that I find much more convincing, and that Marxists have been trying to absorb into themselves since - which amusingly reveals the idealist feature of historical materialist thought. Contemporary Marxism, like the revolutionary pessimism of Salvage or the "bleak left" of Endnotes, is a materialist mask for identity politics, which colonialism critiques as well.

>>12890525
>people arent bad they are just oppressed by some bad people

Ayo hol up

>>12890020
>material determinism
don't think Marx ever used this term...

>>12890260
err, I'm a communist but Marx did think capitalism was about to collapse, he said the US civil war was proof capitalism was it's last stages. really no point in trying to lie about what Marx said, accept where he was wrong and move on

>>12890321
>anti-egalitarianism
Marx wrote extensively on this. he called the puruit of redistribution and equality "vulgar socialism"

>>12890606
Why do I only ever hear what Marx didn't support?

Why don't you just get the story straight?

>>12890594
Can you cite some examples of him saying that

>>12890582
Most determinists of any stroke dont like the term because it doesnt give them much leeway to slither out of, but Marx was pretty much a material determinists.

>>12890613
you know you can actually read Marx and find out who's telling the truth and who's bullshitting.
>But one man is superior to another physically, or mentally, and supplies more labor in the same time, or can labor for a longer time; and labor, to serve as a measure, must be defined by its duration or intensity, otherwise it ceases to be a standard of measurement. This equal right is an unequal right for unequal labor. It recognizes no class differences, because everyone is only a worker like everyone else; but it tacitly recognizes unequal individual endowment, and thus productive capacity, as a natural privilege. It is, therefore, a right of inequality, in its content, like every right. Right, by its very nature, can consist only in the application of an equal standard; but unequal individuals (and they would not be different individuals if they were not unequal) are measurable only by an equal standard insofar as they are brought under an equal point of view, are taken from one definite side only -- for instance, in the present case, are regarded only as workers and nothing more is seen in them, everything else being ignored. Further, one worker is married, another is not; one has more children than another, and so on and so forth. Thus, with an equal performance of labor, and hence an equal in the social consumption fund, one will in fact receive more than another, one will be richer than another, and so on. To avoid all these defects, right, instead of being equal, would have to be unequal.

>>12890623
he wrote a book on it I'm pretty sure. Zizek mentions it often as an example of how easy it is to underestimate capitalism's ability of sublate contradiction

>>12890648
Well marx is hardly relevant to Marxism

>>12890636
Engels went even further to make a point against equality in his letters
>"The elimination of all social and political inequality,” rather than “the abolition of all class distinctions,” is similarly a most dubious expression. As between one country, one province and even one place and another, living conditions will always evince a certain inequality which may be reduced to a minimum but never wholly eliminated. The living conditions of Alpine dwellers will always be different from those of the plainsmen. The concept of a socialist society as a realm of equality is a one-sided French concept deriving from the old “liberty, equality, fraternity,” a concept which was justified in that, in its own time and place, it signified a phase of development, but which, like all the one-sided ideas of earlier socialist schools, ought now to be superseded, since they produce nothing but mental confusion, and more accurate ways of presenting the matter have been discovered.

This is gonna sound edgy but I'm sincere.
If you want refutations to marxism read Marx.

>>12890020
It never works. What more do you need than the long list of failed marxist projects?

>>12890653
>Well marx is hardly relevant to Marxism

1) Read theory
2) attempt communism
3) it fails
4) blame everything else but the system
5) theorists create a slightly adjusted version
6) go to 1

>>12890687
>blame everything else but the system
t. never read a Marxist in his life

>>12890084
>Not a Marxist state.
Can there really be such a thing as a Marxist state?

>>12890723
If you're a Marxist-Leninist? Then yes, or more specifically a socialist state built on Marx's analysis of capital. If you're a Leftcom or any other libertarian Marxist varient? Then no, no such state can exist.

>>12890733
Isn't the point of Marxist-Leninism also ultimately the realization of Communism? The difference is just the way to get there.

>no such state
Per definition, there wouldn't be any state. The point is to get rid of the state.

>>12890244
That's not really what class consciousness is, read Lukács
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lukacs/works/history/lukacs3.htm

>>12890733
>>12890777
you need to be clear whether you are talking about communism, marxism, or socialism. these terms are not interchangeable

since this thread is relevant:
communism is much more dangerous than facism because fascists (in the modern age) are honest about their goals for the most part, while communists lie and say their system has never been tried and so point to utopian states as the result of their politics

>>12890814
>read a Stalin apologist
let's not

>>12890826
define communism real quick

>>12890828
Are you gonna sit there and tell me that people shouldn't be reading one of the most influential figures in Marxist thought? Even if you disagree with him you still need to read his fucking work to do so

>>12890826
They're more dangerous because the state is the only thing capable of providing justification for human life. Anti-statism is a political nihilism less desirable than the than the destruction of mankind via total ecological collapse.

>>12890820
The point of Marxism is usually the realization of Communism.

And if I remember correctly, according to classical marxist theory that requires a society to go through the stages of:
Feudalism -> Capitalism -> Socialism -> Communism

Very often people who call themselves "Socialists" are just Marxists who live in a capitalist society and wish to move society to the next stage. Socialism isn't exactly the end goal. And that is usually used as a justification for the oppressive nature of want-to-be Socialist states. It is supposed to be a temporary evil.

>>12890832
People starve and get deleted from photos.

>read book written by marxist
>can't stop talking about modes of production, labor value, and other arcane bullshit no one gives a fuck about
>reads more like a shitty economics book than actual philosophy, when most of economics doesnt even care about marxism anymore
>this is supposed to appeal to the working class
When did philosophy get so fucking boring? If i compare this shit to something like Nietzsche, then it feels like im reading an instruction manual for a washing machine. It's so fucking boring.

>>12890871
read Nick Land

>>12890879
Nick Land doesnt exist. His books are generated by a Markov program that was fed Deleuze and alt-right articles.

>>12890832
someone who calls themselves communist and aims for a "true" communist state
they're more dangerous to democracy/society than fascists because fascists in this day and age are mostly honest, saying nazi germany was real fascism and that they want to recreate it, whereas the communists will not admit prior attempts at communism are the likely end of their politics
because of this, more people could be convinced by communism and it's pretty much objectively good end goal, whereas the nazi has a much harder time selling his fascist politics with the end result being an anti democratic police state where your loyalty is always being questioned.

>>12890899
>whereas the communists will not admit prior attempts at communism are the likely end of their politics
>because of this, more people could be convinced by communism and it's pretty much objectively good
A lot commies engage in historical revisionism though.

>>12890899
>define communism
>someone who calls themselves a communist and aims for communism
sometimes the fact I share a board with you people is just depressing

>>12890905
most ive encountered use that line of debate, that the previous attempts at communism were not real communism or even real attempts.

>>12890777
>Isn't the point of Marxist-Leninism also ultimately the realization of Communism? The difference is just the way to get there.
Yes, but Marxist-Leninists see the state as necessary to build up the productive forces of the country and to match the established military of opposing capitalist countries. Leftcoms and libertarian type on the other hand are generally split between council communists and Bordiga-types who simply go with the idea that capital will collapse and communism will form on it's own accord with no need of a vanguard.
>Per definition, there wouldn't be any state. The point is to get rid of the state.
ML's will generally maintain that it is a communist to signify it's long term goals.

>>12890913
i don't care what you want to call communism, it's irrelevant to the point.
i'm saying communists are dangerous, regardless of if communism is feasible, what it really is, if it's been tried, it all doesnt really matter to the argument at all.
because the point is communists are dangerous since they fail every single time at bringing about their communist state and will not admit their previous failures as the fault of honest communists or real communism.

>>12890914
because communism is a theoretical end state to history with no classes and no state by which society operates on vollentary principles of democracy. has there ever been a country like that in world?
>inb4 you say "that's not real communism"

>>12890929
communists, yes, communism, obviously not. the USSR was authoritarian socialism, not even Stalin called the USSR a communist country

>>12890871
It's supposed to be based around economics anon. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be Marxism.
>When did philosophy get so fucking boring?
>It's so fucking boring.
I really hope you don't treat everything you read with this kind of attitude.

>>12890931
>no classes
>no states
that anarcho communism

---ONE:
I'll start with a popular and easy one, entry level critique.

IT HAS NEVER BEEN TRIED

Commies point out that stateless-moneyless-classless society never happened, so, naturally, communism has never been tried, so one couldn't say it was tried and failed.

I could claim that humans can transform into Unicorns if they really try hard.
If someone points out that no one turned into a unicorn I'll say: "Exactly, you don't see any unicorns, which means they didn't really try hard"

Even smart people have this perverse understanding of cause and effect when it comes to ideology.

---TWO:
CAPITALISM IS EVIL

But just because there's something evil there doesn't have to be a cure for it.
I'm not saying stop trying to find solutions I'm merely stating the fact that some things are inescapable, all life will end someday, does that mean there OUGHT to be way to avert it?

---THREE:
JUST DO IT!

Certain things have a veil of complexity in them, that makes it really hard to see if something is possible or not, communism might be one of those things, something very close to being real but ultimately not enough to materialize.

Just like a maze, there are paths that are 99% correct until the last turn where you find a dead-end.
It may give you the feeling that you are correct because you're so close but it actually means you have to try an entirely different route.

---THREE:
MARX DIAGNOSED CAPITALISM

You could find a billion things wrong with capitalism doesn't mean you have found the solution.
Just because we diagnose a person with a virus doesn't mean we are even anywhere close to having a cure.
Sometimes the solution to a diagnosed problem is a million times harder.
Human societies are the most complex systems there can be.

---FOUR:
DICTATORS USE COMMUNISM AS FRONT TO SEIZE POWER

Power is addictive.
Especially PoMos would agree that power is incredibly resilient at maintaining itself by any means necessary, in any group that occupy any form of power.

Maybe it was used as a front a few times...but again you could be confusing cause and effect, MAYBE THE GOVERNING COMMUNIST GROUP JUST EMBRACED POWER AND THEIR POSITIONS? OH YEAH I MANAGED TO BECOME A GODKING OF A STATE NOW I'LL DISSOLVE THE LEADERSHIP GROUP AND GO BACK TO PLOWING MY SMALL FARM AND DIE IN HORSE SHIT LMAO

---FIVE:
>human nature? incentives? power? don't make me laugh : ))

Just because humans have a deep capacity to change and adapt that doesn't imply magical endless capacity and for all aspects of a human.
Not everything is a magical software that we can rewrite at a whim.

YOU WANT EVERYONE TO BECOME SELFLESS HARDWORKING COMMUNIST ASCENDANT BUDDHA DRONES AND YOU CAN'T EVEN STICK TO A FUCKING DIET TO SAVE YOUR FUCKING LIFE YOU FAT FUCK, TOTALLY NOT RATIONALIZING TO INFINITY AND BACK, BASED AND COPEPILLED COMRADE

>>12890954
no, that's Marxist communism. there's a reason why anarchists and marxists are so closely related politically

>>12890832
>Marxist definition:
A state-less class-less society with flat hierarchies and common ownership of the means of production.

>Colloquial definition:
Any society run by Marxists.

>>12890931
you're losing me; i feel as if it's retardation instead of genius - the quality of the thing i just read - which contributes to my confusion
>>12890937
stalin took awhile after the revolution; was it not communists who took control of government initially?

like i said, i dont care what you want to call the states; i couldn't care less. all that matters to the argument and point is that communists went about creating these societies and refuse to acknowledge them as the results of communists, communists who want to and are trying to create a communist state, who are just like them.
they point to what they hope to make, and say it is what will be made - that is the issue

>>12890828
>>12890937
>Hating on Stalin

>>12890948
>philosophy should be about economics
no it shouldnt be

>>12890956
Based post desu

>>12890965
>not hating a Georgian choir boy turned ruthless dictator

>>12890963
abandoning definitions is probably the most retarded thing you can do in this situation. look, China calls themselves democratic, should we abandon the definition of democracy because a state used it in a way which contradicts the definition? you could jsut as easily say:
>China is democratic, i dont care what you want to call the states; i couldn't care less. all that matters to the argument and point is that democrats went about creating these societies and refuse to acknowledge them as the results of democrats, democrats who want to and are trying to create a democratic state, who are just like them.

>>12890956
NINTENDO HIRE THIS MAN

>>12890966
he said marxism should be about economic. are you illiterate? that post was like 3 sentences how did it lose you?

>>12890329
>[Marxism] convinces men that they are alienated by the sale of their labor power, thus censoring the much more radical hypothesis that they might be alienated as labor power.
Wow, even Baudrillard didn't understand Marx.
Read Camatte:
>The struggle of people against capital has only ever been seen through the narrow focus of class. The only way to be regarded as a real adversary of capital has been to actively identify oneself with the proletariat; all else is romantic, petit bourgeois etc . . . But the very act of reasoning in classist terms means that any particular class is confined within the limits of class analysis. This is particularly important when one considers that the working class has as its mission the elimination of all classes. It also avoids the question of how that class will bring about its own autodestruction, since this classist analysis prevents any lessons being drawn from the tragic intellectual fate of those people who set themselves in opposition to capital without even recognising or identifying their enemy (as with Bergson, for example). Today, when the whole classist approach has been deprived of any solid base, it may be worthwhile to reconsider movements of the right and their thinking. The right is a movement of opposition to capital that seeks to restore a moment which is firmly rooted in the past. Hence in order to eliminate class conflict, the excesses of capitalist individualism, speculation and so on, the Action Francaise and the Nouvelle Action Francaise (NAF) envisage a community which can only be guaranteed, according to them, by a system of monarchy. (See particularly the chapter on capitalism in Les Dossiers de l'Action Francaise).

>>12891003
>It seems that every current or group which opposes capital is nonetheless obliged to focus always on the human as the basis of everything. It takes diverse forms, but it has a profoundly consistent basis and is surprisingly uniform wherever human populations are found. Thus by seeking to restore (and install) the volksgemeinschaft, even the Nazis represent an attempt to create such a community (cf. also their ideology of the Urmensh, the "original man"). We believe that the phenomenon of Nazism is widely misunderstood: it is seen by many people only as a demonic expression of totalitarianism. But the Nazis in Germany had reintroduced an old theme originally theorized by German sociologists like Tonnies and Max Weber. And so in response, we find the Frankfurt school, and most notably Adorno, dealing in empty and sterile concepts of "democracy", due to their incapacity to understand the phenomenon of Nazism. They have been unable to grasp Marx's great insight, which was that he posed the necessity of reforming the community, and that he recognised that this reformation must involve the whole of humanity. The problems are there for everybody; they are serious, and they urgently require solutions. People try to work them out from diverse political angles. However, it is not these problems which determine what is revolutionary or counter-revolutionary, but the solutions put forward - i.e. are they effective or not? And here the racketeer's mentality descends upon us once again: each gang of the left or the right carves out its own intellectual territory; anyone straying into one or the other of these territories is automatically branded as a member of the relevant controlling gang. Thus we have reification: the object is determinant, the subject passive.

>>12890956
>CAPITALISM IS EVIL
>moralisms
>>12890979
>"muh ebil Stalin"
And yet still the most popular figure in Russia even among people who lived under him. Stop being infantial.

>>12891007
>moralisms
Commies use that language of "evil"
I simply assume they mean it's bad for humans and treated it as such.

>>12891007
>And yet still the most popular figure in Russia even among people who lived under him. Stop being infantial.
That's only because Russians are fundamentally evil and broken beings.

>>12891007
>>"muh ebil Stalin"
>And yet still the most popular figure in Russia
Yeah because the government glorifies him
>even among people who lived under him.
Yeah, because the ones who hated him were killed.
stop using appeal to majority

>>12890879
No, please don't. You will only become dumber.

>>12890329
>Baudrillard proposes to liberate workers from their "labor value" and think in terms other than production.
Can anyone expand on this, or give an idea what section it is in?

>>12891007
>And yet still the most popular figure in Russia even among people who lived under him. Stop being infantial.
That's due to nationalism. His popularity is more a testament to the power of fascism than communism, since he was a fucking red fascist.

>>12891014
>I simply assume they mean it's bad for humans and treated it as such.
Sure, but the use of the term "evil" to describe economic systems is a moralist claim Marxists have rejected ever since the first disagreements with the utopian socialists who based their ideologies on "moral principle"
>>12891018
>Russians are fundamentally evil and broken beings.
Hot take
>>12891027
>Yeah because the government glorifies him
It's more like it has to in order to maintain popularity. Ironically, with benefits being cut and public outcry increasing over it, his popularity has only increased.
>Yeah, because the ones who hated him were killed.
Ok liberal

>>12891058
>since he was a fucking red fascist.
Nah

>>12891063
You type like a redditor, probably a chapo-faggot as well. I can imagine you look like pic related

>>12891071
>chapo-faggot as well
Chapofags are SocDem's with at best a goon sense of humor.

>>12891063
>It's more like it has to in order to maintain popularity.
Can't believe you're this dumb. A lot of people living in Russia used to live in the Soviet Union and their public education glorified Stalin. I'm also sure that the current public education glorifies Stalin too.

>>12891063
>Sure, but the use of the term "evil" to describe economic systems is a moralist claim Marxists have rejected ever since the first disagreements with the utopian socialists who based their ideologies on "moral principle"

You're a literal child.

>>12891097
>A lot of people living in Russia used to live in the Soviet Union and their public education glorified Stalin. I'm also sure that the current public education glorifies Stalin too.
It's not only Stalin himself who is gaining popularity you know.

>>12891109
Yeah, look at the propaganda you tankie retard. It's not Stalin it's Lenin, Marx and Engels that are glorified in Russian public education.

>>12890956
Good post

Last two points are the best and not because you wrote with CAPITAL(ism) letters.

Asking a communist leader to dissolve the state is like asking a superhero to ditch his superpowers.
As for the second one, I personally struggle with so many addictions and procrastination and almost everyone I ever met, I'd say the vast majority have a problem with doing what they must.

>>12891110
Anything wrong with what I said?
>>12891120
Lenin is constantly thrown under the bus by the government you retard. I bet you believe everything boomers and western media tells you about Russia too.

>>12890687
Sciences develop over time. Accept what he got right and work on that. It's Hegelian

>>12891063
>Hot take
It's more the result of a proper analysis of the Russian spirit.

lol ofc the unrelated pic is from World Peace

>>12890678
>he thinks marx is central to marxism

>>12891145
Do you tankieshits have an IQ of 2?

>>12891063
>Hot take
Redditor or Twitterfaggot, either way get the fuck out you dumb cunt

>>12891155
I picked it because it's anti-capitalist

>>12890678
>>12891150
Meant to respond to

Not sure how that happened

>>12891177
I love the show but still lol. Have you read 'Society of the spectacle'?

>>12891187
Im serious, that skit was about the soul-crushing reality of working in a dead-end job

How is a communist society supposed to work? Like if two people considered it their life's purpose to live in this exact mansion who would it be given to? Would the community have to decide who gets it? Would famous people get dibs on things because the public wants to see them happy and would go with interests of the people?

>>12891159
Do you? Putin throws shade at Lenin whenever he is given a chance to. He's a safer target.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8bAnr9HKqeE

>>12891194
I think it has more to do with the stress he's needlessly putting himself under with his illusions. He's just helping run like a landscaping business and he's acting like lives are on the line. iirc when his day starts he's driving a fairly nice car but when he actually gets to the office its some japanese econobox. He gets himself all jazzed up on uppers like everyone is "supposed" to do and flips his shit over nothing, but ultimately makes no difference. I don't think the point of the episode was that as a CEO he is -actually- under all of this stress, and I think your interpretation is brainlet tier. Ironically the mindless baudrillard parrot is kind of more on the mark here, if unintentionally

>>12891194
imo its about men being too work oriented but Sam Hyde is a super-villian capitalist who thinks people who can't contribute to capitalist hegemony should literally be killed (see: KSTV) so its not really a criticism of capitalism but a criticism of being a workoholic per Sam's definition

>>12891219
lol you wrote what I was too drunk to post, 100% agree
>>12891225

>>12891200
Who lived in it first and who built it?

>>12891225
Sam Hyde, whatever you think of him, is a deeply dialectical man

>>12891241
he has fascinated me (I've seen and read literally everything he's ever made) as someone who has transitioned from a /pol/tard to a far-leftist but I wouldn't call him dialectical lol

>>12891241
''Sam Hyde'' is capitalism's immanent critique of itself

>Sam Hide (listed in some sources as Sam Hyde) is a historic or apocryphal character in the folklore of New England, used in the folk saying "to lie like Sam Hide".[1] There is no record of the death of a Sam Hide in the records of Dedham, Massachusetts though he is said to have died in 1732,[2] however Sam Hide is noted at age 105 at Dedham as being a sachem, chief or sagamore who first and last were, to a greater or less degree, land-holders, and leaders of the multifarious tribes of New England

>>12891256
you have to be 18 to post here

>>12891256
''transitioned''

this is what happens when the discord trannies get you. this is the last thing you will ever want to happen.

>>12890220
Even if capitalism had the potential to eventually transition to communism we'd get roasted by climate change way before that's happen.

>tfw you know the answer but there's no point in sharing because it will get buried beneath the BLUE MAN GOOD/RED MAN BETTER shitslinging

>>12891200
You're still thinking largly in the scarcity paradigm. The question is of reproduction not just better rationing. How would housing work in a post-scarcity economy where big status symbols were just an unnecessary burden.
Most mansions are built and supported obviously by commanding the labour of others, although I suppose some exceptions do exist https://www.livescience.com/41075-coral-castle.html

>>12891284
>tfw to smart to debate but want to show how smart i am anyway

>>12891284
I'm genuinely interested.

>>12890147
Yep. Marxist critiques are usually good, Marxist solutions are always garbage.

>>12891284
Go for it, we're all waiting

>>12890241
>It had the working class control the means of production

hahaha holy shit do you actually believe this? No fucking way anyone could be this willfully ignorant.

>>12891267
shut the fuck up holy shit

>>12891284
Someone already did it (>>12890956)

>>12891327
>>>/r/eddit

this thread is fucking retarded read Debord

>>12891327
how the hell is Sam Hyde a far leftist then?

Isnt it strange how the working class was never really involved in any revolution? It was always the bourgeoisie, disgruntled millitary officers, just regular outcasts or wealthy flamboyant fellow travelers who formed the bulk of any commie revolution. But never the proles.

>>12891336
Not him but your reading comprehension is shit.
He didn't imply such a thing.

>>12891333
nice trips also you're a nigger

>>12891338
shhh don't wake the daydreamers.

>>12891336
what? he's not he's on the far-right and he's a retard for it

>>12891343
>racism
Yikes! Not very far left of you pal

>>12891338
millions of workers have been willing to die for the party read up on unions, strikes, anything you dumb fuck

>>12891343
Yikes! Downboat, we don't accept racism and bigotry on Chapo trap house

>>12891352
we're all secretly racist actually

>>12891338
B-b-but ideology! Cultural hegemony! The lumpenproletariat!

Invisible committees are the only way to go.

>>12891363
its a good show though pls anon don't do this :(

>>12891368
Everyone knows that considering you treat them like pets but it doesn't really matter unless you're going to stop forcing brown consumers down everyone's throat

>>12891372
Yeah, man. Matt said fuck once; what a fucking rebel he is!

>>12891338
>Isnt it strange how the working class was never really involved in any revolution?
But that's objectively untrue. Every revolution was fought with proles. Even conflicts in which the proletariat were split were still fought with proles.

>>12891372
unironically go back to plebbit you disgusting communist

>>12891380
so you haven't listened to an episode? The hosts have literally condoned murdering liberals

>>12891384
>reddit
>communist
pick one retard

>>12891362
>unions and strikes are the same as willing to die for the revolution
A strike isnt the same as the fucking October 'revolution' you idiot.

>>12891336
Sam Hyde is the most elite queer situationist post feminist performance artist on the planet

>>12891387
I'll believe it when they put their money where their mouth is. The broad left has so much institutional power that they know murdering would only hurt their cause; there's a reason why there are so few far left murders/terror attacks.

>>12891383
Sure, but they were always dragged along by other forces who were truly in control. The 'revolutionary vanguard' almost never had any proles in them, just wealthy intellectuals who wanted to bring down whatever system they were in.

The point im making is that the 'proles' never started a revolution, unlike what Marx predicted.

>>12891362
>>12891383
They never led their revolutions and when they did decide to back organizations whose goals were directed towards mass-action and working-class interests they were crushed or usurped by bureaucratized apparatchiks - see the Mensheviks, Strasserists, Falangists, Syndicalists, and Anarchists. The working class is incapable of making revolution for itself, which is why they always fall into the hands of professional revolutionaries.

>>12891400
Almost every mass shooter has been a democrat or the children of democrats and things like columbine, aurora, stoneman douglass and sandy hook were literally carried out by the Walter Benjamin inspired CIA

>>12890020
the actual non ironic genuine economic criticisms of marxism are actually pretty shit.

Marx studied capitalism. He had 3 (three) 800 volumes in which he explained capitalism and how it works and named it Capital.

He wasn't like most people talking about capitalism in the abstract. He really knew his shit. Far more than most people of his time and even now, certainly anyone on this board.

The only real actual critiques of Marxism are more contemporary philosophers, and that's largely just because Capitalism always changes and the capitalism of today isn't anything like what Marx described. He could never have foresaw something like Google happening (no land, little labor, no product) or the role that abstract financial instruments play in growth today (again no product or even process, just capital creation out of nothing immediately)

That being said, some of his contemporaries did make some arguments on a purely philosophical-political basis that were and still are accurate (Stirner for instance). Sorel came a little later than him and also made points which are still valid today.

TLDR Marx knew capitalism better more than almost anyone. Most effective critques about Marxism come from later people who were actually Marxists at some point or continued to be Marxist throughout their lives. Marx is your daddy and you need to stop hating him

>>12891420
>reddit spacing
>implying anyone is reading that
yikes and cringepilled

>>12891420
Criticizing Marx on any level other than economically is futile

>>12891428
literally kill yourself

>>12891372
There is nothing edgier or more transgressive than Hitler. Stop listening to chapo trans house sissy hypno asmr, and Join your local o9a nexus today, maybe try your chance at culling some random mundanes, what could be more radical and revolutionary than literally murdering innocent people? just to take the piss, you know. epater le bourgeoisie. stick it to the man and protest against the corporate culture of consumerism and conformity,gamer upheaval and that sort of thing. the redditors who think they are edgy just because they like rick and morty, the chapo trannies who havent left their room in three years due to crippling social anxiety and yet fancy themselves revolutionaries who would totally like punch a nazi? all those 115 managers and bureaucrats, the journalists and academic pencil pushers who they are smarter than they really are. also People who browse pol and post ironic jew memes but think satanism and culling humans is just a step too far. ever wanted to see them eat shit and die?

>>12891420
>spewing bullshit upon bullshit
you reek of Reddit.
>Marx is your daddy and you need to stop hating him
and you've confirmed you're from reddit

I honest to God stopped being a Marxist after reading two Instructions on Liberation Theology written by Cardinal Ratzinger.

It was almost painful to let go of.

The danger of powerful theories like Marxism is that they can become the sole lens through which one understands reality.

>>12891446
Imagine wasting all of that time reading marx and you're still a dumb incel and no one cares enough to even read your shitposts on 4chan and you'll never be right about anything ;_;

>>12891441
economics is just politics trying to seem more "scientific" by using numbers.

>>12891420
>the actual non ironic genuine economic criticisms of marxism are actually pretty shit.
No, they're actually the best criticisms of Marxism, since his understanding of economics is by far the most outdated by modern standards, unlike his sociology or anthropology. Saying that he 'knew his shit' because he wrote 800 pages doesnt is bullcrap and not just because no modern commie even reads Capital anyway. Thomas of Aquinas wrote 1000 pages on Trinitarian Christianity, but plenty of people have made very valid and fundamental criticisms of it nonetheless.

The biggest point of criticism is Marx' positive contributions, which are very lacking and almost nothing compared to the mountains of critiques he made. Yet when someone asks Marx 'what shall we do then?', he comes up with bullshit ideas that are unironically on the level of your average teenage pothead philosopher. Like a voucher system that magically wont turn into currency, even though humans have used everything as currency. Come the fuck on, Karl.

Remember to hide and filter the tripfag everyone. Starve it out.

>>12891458
u mad

>>12891465
But dumb niggers use economics for personal gain and get butthurt when old theories are replaced with new ones

>>12891441
Marx's economic positions are probably his strongest. If you want to handle Marx effectivley, go after the metaphysical positions underlying his work.

>>12891420
>He could never have foresaw something like Google happening (no land, little labor, no product)
You can definitely argue that Google does have products, namely their search engine, a digital video delivery system known as Youtube and so on. They have also have laborers, they just type lines of code on a computer instead working on an assembly line, and these employees work in the Googleplex in Mountain View, CA and various offices in London, Hamburg, etc. It works on the same model as private TV channel, who get their revenue from advertising.
That said, there are definitely things to be said about the novel character of companies like Amazon, Facebook, Uber, Deliveroo and consorts in the light of Marx's theory.

>>12891462
>I honest to God stopped being a Marxist after reading two Instructions on Liberation Theology written by Cardinal Ratzinger.

So you just exchanged a life denying slave morality jewish cult for another?

>>12891475
Like what?

>>12891405
How are you defining proles here? Because none of them were bourgeoisie.
>>12891407
>The working class is incapable of making revolution for itself, which is why they always fall into the hands of professional revolutionaries.
Whether you like it or not, pragmatically you need a vanguard of dedicated revolutionaries to carry out any revolution or insurrection. Otherwise the whole thing collapses with no structure and opens itself up to being taken over by outside capital interests. Trying to have socialism without a strong state in a capitlaist world is like trying to bring a disassembled gun to a shootout. You might be able to get the gun assembled in time to fight back, but chances are you're just going to get shot while flailing around like a retard. Discipline and direction are needed.

>>12891477
the search engine/video streaming is more service than product, they are aggregation not creation. google maps is a product though.
Uber/Airbnb/ect. are staight up charging rent

>>12891470
not at all, redditor

>>12891485
His materialism and anything he got from Hegel.

>>12891467
>Like a voucher system that magically wont turn into currency,
You might want to sit down for this
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fvRfhakbEVE

>>12891515
What criticism of his materialism would you suggest then? It's rather hard to get rid of ontological materialism.

>>12891517
>you can't save it
that's the gayest shit ever. it's advocating for consumerism

>>12891513
seething

>>12891477
I was talking about google when they first started out. Obviously now they have phones and actual factories and warehouses. When they started, it was just a few people with a computer, an internet connection, some servers, and that's it. They made millions with that set up (plus a few more people and computers). Same goes for facebook. Marx could have never seen something like that happening. It basically invalidates his entire concept of the means of production, but this angers the marxist.

>>12891533
>They made millions with that set up
And all of the institutional support that allowed for it.

>>12890020
communism is impossible because of original sin

>>12891546
institutional support was behind Yahoo, young anon

why do people waste so much time reading about politics? it will get you nowhere in life

>>12891515
The problems with Hegel aren't actually what a lot of people make it out to be. Marx purposely broke Hegel's dialectic by ripping out the idealism and inserting a materialist analysis. This materialist dialectic is meant simply as a model to observe and present the contradictions inherent in previous economic systems as well as capitalism. Marx himself rarely used the term dialectical materialism, he always referred to it as historical materialism.

>>12891552
it's a way for them to avoid confronting their problems while still feeling like they're doing something

>>12890820
I often wonder if, since the end of WWII, certain interested parties have or have not intentionally perpetuated the misuse of the term "socialism" and encouraged its fallacious association with Marxism, all for the purpose of, essentially, poisoning the well of all alternatives to both communism and globalist capitalism.

>>12891551
Google's search engine was partially funded by government grants. Its creators were also dependent upon the institutional support inherent in receiving an education at a place like Stanford.

>>12891559
the worst part of it is that people think debating shitposters on an anonymous image board helps with anything

>>12891552
It, at least, gives you the ability to criticise your governments policies. You can, if you wish, advocate for policies that you believe will be more beneficial to society than current ones, after educating yourself. But you are somewhat right, if you're not going to advocate for anything, it's nothing more than fulfilling curiosity.

>>12891527
>that's the gayest shit ever. it's advocating for consumerism
Marx's version doesn't expire to my knowledge, but in what way is this one consumerist. The expiration length is rather long, and it keeps productivity moving.

>>12890020
Idk if this is what you meant for but hear me out on this neat dumbo argument.

The aims of marxism is clear and I don't need to read the manifesto to refute the aim (I read Nietzsche btw lol).

I like this here quote:
>The fairest universe is but a heap of rubbish piled up at random.

>>12891533
>It basically invalidates his entire concept of the means of production, but this angers the marxist.
Not really, the means of production in this case are the very computers and servers you were talking about. They wouldn't have yield much power if the working class would have seized them in 1999 as such, that is true, but that doesn't mean that means of production don't exist anymore. If a group of engineers ever happen to seize all Intel factories, they would have enormous power in their hands.
I personally believe we should abandon this whole romanticized Leninist revolution stuff anyway, and immediately focus on decreasing work hours. Jehu is definitely unto something.

>>12891560
>perpetuated the misuse of the term "socialism"
yes, socialism is an economic position which was the basis of the USSR, China, ect. you can say they failed at it, but it was an exercise in socialism. now, socialism is seen as the acceptable liberal version of communism, when quite literally it was the exact opposite. communism is far more liberal than socialism. Marxism is a dead term that didn't even mean anything in Marx's time. if you honestly think fascism is the right way forward however you are literally the bottom of the barrel. fascism is a reactionary movement away from communism through the adoption of a state-run economy (socialism without any lip service to the labourer). It's the worst parts of leftist economics grafted onto whatever xenophobia or bigotry they can use to their advantage. fascism is the definition of cuckoldry

>>12891565
>they went to school
wow big if true

>>12891605
You sound like a religious nutter

>>12891615
this is a pretty standard interpretation of the National Socialists, anon

>>12891611
>let's completely ignore the social purpose and function of America's elite institutions because acknowledging it would be anti-intellectual, and I above all else, base the entirety of my self-worth on being an intellectual.

>>12890020
Sargon of Akkad

>>12890155

>>12891633
see
>>12891615

>>12891605
>communism is far more liberal than socialism.
wut

>By Socialists, in 1847, were understood, on the one hand the adherents of the various Utopian systems: Owenites in England, Fourierists in France, both of them already reduced to the position of mere sects, and gradually dying out; on the other hand, the most multifarious social quacks who, by all manner of tinkering, professed to redress, without any danger to capital and profit, all sorts of social grievances, in both cases men outside the working-class movement, and looking rather to the “educated" classes for support.
>Whatever portion of the working class had become convinced of the insufficiency of mere political revolutions, and had proclaimed the necessity of total social change, called itself Communist. It was a crude, rough-hewn, purely instinctive sort of communism; still, it touched the cardinal point and was powerful enough amongst the working class to produce the Utopian communism of Cabet in France, and of Weitling in Germany.
>Thus, in 1847, socialism was a middle-class movement, communism a working-class movement. Socialism was, on the Continent at least, “respectable”; communism was the very opposite. And as our notion, from the very beginning, was that “the emancipation of the workers must be the act of the working class itself,” there could be no doubt as to which of the two names we must take. Moreover, we have, ever since, been far from repudiating it.
t. Engels

>>12891560
>Heritage is reactionary
>History is imperialist
>All cultures must be destroyed
>Everyone can't own land
>Everyone doesn't have property
>No preference for family
>Social bonds are bourgeoisie
This is the most brainlet description for what communists believe I've read this month. Not even the USSR did or believed any of this.

>>12891654
Nah, most leftists just tend to be too sympathetic to academia because their project is primarily an intellectual one.

>>12891490
Then don't be surprised when socialization of the economy does not happen. What you end up with is not even a degenerated workers' state, but a bureaucratic collectivist form of political and economic organization run by bureaucrats and managers. The means of production were never in the hands of the working class in the USSR. Marxism-Leninism is the culmination of Leninist disdain for worker 'economism' - or collective-interest

>>12891605
have you perchance perused James Mason's revolutionary and uncompromising classic SIEGE? People seem to think NS starts and ends with Hitler, some repeat the leftist commonplace that there is no such thing as fascist theory, when they could be farther from the truth. Charles Manson, Miguel Serrano, Savitri Devi, Francis Parker Yockey, Anton Long/David Myatt/O9A... the list goes on. esoteric nazi theory is definitely deeper and more fascinating than leftwing and marxist theory, which imho lacks the cosmological razzmatazz of ns theory.

Literally any religion or faith at all disproves material determinism, buddhists forgo all material value and achieve enlightenment this way. To say that the human soul is nothing more than what it can and does own is not just a foolish mistake, but a fatal blow to the ideals of intent itself.

>>12891658
>Thus, in 1847
yeah remember that thing called the Russian Revoultion? Lenin? Stalin? changed some peoples takes on these terms.

>>12890084
>>12890147
the inapplicability of marxist theories is a critique itself

>>12891674
>cosmological razzmatazz
I didn't know cringe could hit these sorts of levels

>>12891674
I also believe Sam Hyde should be taken seriously as the most insightful and esoteric american political thinker of our time

>>12891595
land is a non issue.
tools are a non issue (when realistically, most anyone has access to them)
even labor increasingly is a non issue

capital now no longer needs these 3. capital literally just creates capital. its insane. how are the means of production a thing when none none of the means of production are needed to produce? Sure labor is technically necessary, but actual labor (meaning more than like 3 people) that marx was talking about isn't a hard requirement anymore. In the financial sector it isnt needed at all, and mere speculation (not even thought more like base emotion) is all that is needed to automatically create wealth. Outside of that, wealth and growth are increasingly made by simply renting things. No labor or land is expended and no product produced.

You have to go down the last pretty far to get to a point where actual things produced by actual masses of people in an industrial setting are seen as a driver of wealth and growth.

London and New York produce almost nothing material but are worth nonexistent trillions. The entire midwest of the US which holds all the good land and produces tons of food and meat are worth a fraction of that

>>12891693
>razzmatazz
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pa7OQPuGqC4

Pulp = rock against communism

>>12890956
BASED

>>12891693
you know its true. at the end of the day marxism is just a jewish sperg going on and on about yards of cotton and tons of steel, but esoteric hitlerism? Hitler being literally the avatar? culling of random subhumans as a blood sacrifice to hitler? channeling the wyrd power of sinister dark gods of the acausal realm through unspeakable acts of violent depravity? were can i sign?

>>12891672
>bureaucratic collectivist form of political and economic organization run by bureaucrats and managers.
This I'll actually conceed to occurring later on. Cybernetic planning however as shown by the neo-ricardians and Cockshott is more than sufficient enough in alleviating such problems.
>The means of production were never in the hands of the working class in the USSR.
The people voted for their local Soviets who then represented them in voting for members representatives of the respective republics in the supreme soviet. Later, this vote was made direct for all representatives.
>ARTICLE 139. Elections of deputies are direct : all Soviets of Working People's Deputies from rural and city Soviets of Working People's Deputies to the Supreme Soviet of the U.S.S.R., inclusive, are elected by the citizens by direct vote.

>>12891764
yikes
if you want to be edgy cut your dick off and become a gender accelerationist. esoteric hitlerism is not only cringe it's boomer af. why is o9a a thing again? literally boomer tier.

>>12891769
Isn't cockshott a huge pseud?

>>12891769
>The people voted for their local Soviets who then represented them in voting for members representatives of the respective republics in the supreme soviet. Later, this vote was made direct for all representatives.

That's not owning the means of production. Don't tell me you think the USSR was actually a dictatorship of the proletariat too

Reminder that everyone here should be getting into econophysics.
>>12891705
>This whole post
Rent is literally explained by Marx in the later volumes of capital and empirical data and graphing actually shows Marx to still be relavent https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=emnYMfjYh1Q

>>12891777
>muh politically correct victim lifestyle is subversive and edgy despite the fact that it is aggressively promoted by the federal government, the academic paper pushers and all major capitalist corporations

lmao you chapo discord trannies are so delusional. maybe in the 80s when the aids epidemic was a thing, being an androgynous faggot a la bowie or boy george was hip and cool, but not any more, that shit is lame yo. trans people are so psychologically fragile they can only exist in a near totalitarian managerial liberal dystopia. more freedom for trannies means less freedom for normal people. that's why leftists love this shit, it gives them a chance to expand managerial power and berate people over nonsense. Want to piss people off? be unapologetically masculine and alpha. its borderline illegal.

>>12891787
No? His data is pretty sound, and the only way economists have attempted to refute him and the neo-ricardians in general is literally rejecting the idea that the laws of thermodynamics can apply to economies because for some reason they exist outside of them. I've only really heard the pseud accusation from marginalists and people who have a problem with his opinions on transexuals.

>>12891787
stafford beer is the thinking man's cockshott

>>12891764
>>12891839
>Basing your entire ideological viewpoint on both hedonism and being the most contrarion.
Me jacking off in the middle of the street doesn't make doing so the correct option. It may feel good at first and everyone may hate me doing it, but that's hardly a base to build yourself on. Might as well embrace hedonism wholesale at that point.

>>12891848
Cybersyn was cool, but it wasn't the end all be all. New technologies and algorithms have expanded the potential and power of cybernetic planning.

>>12891806
>Don't tell me you think the USSR was actually a dictatorship of the proletariat too
Pragmatically for the scale they were working with? Yes.

>>12891839
if you think g/acc and discord trannies are the same thing you might just be a retard

>>12891886
I treasure my individuality and my belief in personal freedom. I heard that makes you an evil alt right nazi in this day and age.

>>12891929
>I heard that makes you an evil alt right nazi in this day and age.
No, at best it makes you a liberal. Possibly an edgy liberal, but still a liberal.

>>12891969
>At best
Meant at worst

>>12891928
what are the major factions in the wacky rpg world of deranged extremely online transexuals?

>>12891886
I can't conceive of any human motivations beyond hedonism and pissing people off

>>12891928
>Nyx owned a lib she's normal

lol Nyx literally took Sadie Plant/CCRU shit and tries to make it tranny transhumanism. g/acc is garbage eschatology with a heady dose of social darwinism. It's entertaining, but that's it.

>>12891983
Why not just implant a metal rod in your pleasure center so you can stimulate it with electricity for maximum pleasure? You can invest your money into internet journalism if you want maximize pissing people off.

>>12891990
this is possibly the most enigmatic use of the word "normal" I have ever read

>some guy defends his half-joking description of "esoteric hitlerism" by saying that trannies are part of the status quo and not revolutionary
>OH YEAH WELL WHY DON'T YOU JUST GO JACK OFF IN THE STREETS AND ALSO POOPOO PEEPEE
what is actually wrong with the marxists?

>>12891705
>implying you can have the postmodern digital economy without complex physical Intel and ARM CPUs which require highly-specialized labor to produce
>implying the subprime crisis didn't show the virtual wealth created by the investor clique is based on anything tangible

>>12892042
Where did I say anything about his opinions on trannies? I responding to his reasoning here
>but esoteric hitlerism? Hitler being literally the avatar? culling of random subhumans as a blood sacrifice to hitler? channeling the wyrd power of sinister dark gods of the acausal realm through unspeakable acts of violent depravity? were can i sign?
And here
>maybe in the 80s when the aids epidemic was a thing, being an androgynous faggot a la bowie or boy george was hip and cool, but not any more, that shit is lame yo.
I wasn't even a part of the original conversation and the tranny part came from other anon here >>12891777 mocking him by telling him that he might as well cut his dick off like a g/Accel.
Read first retard.

>>12892106
This is obviously you >>12891886 you big dumb faggot
>READ THE THREAD YOU READ AND COMMENTED ON ACCURATELY ENOUGH FOR ME TO WRITE AN ESSAY BITCHING ABOUT IT
>>>/r/eddit

>>12892121
What the fuck are you even on about? I never said that post wasn't me. I said I wasn't part of the original conversation, which was about SIEGE and "cosmological razzmatazz". I just made a post observing what was an argument based on hedonism and contrarianism. Fuck off nigger.

>>12890826
>fascists (in the modern age) are honest about their goals for the most part
Absolutely not true. Crypto fascism is huge right now with their retarded dog whistles and hiding behind """memes""". It's all over Youtube and pretty much anywhere else without perceptive moderation. You have to be a /pol/tard immersed in that perverted zeitgeist to think otherwise.

marxists are usually soiboys and therefore you shouldn't be marxist

>>12890020
Was this skit a criticism of capitalism?

>>12891924
It was a dictatorship of professional intellectuals and apparats. Vanguardism is Blanquism, not proletarian dictatorship

>>12892191
>dogwhistles
>crypto fascists
People like you make the left look like lunatics. Do you think pewdiepie is a secret nazi too?

>>12892222
No, Pewdiepie, like the majority of liberals and centrists, is just a useful idiot for real fascists.

>>12892241
>It's all over Youtube and pretty much anywhere else
>real fascists
Such as?

>>12890184
Sounds like a mighty fine excuse because he lacked the intellect to propose a viable alternative that wouldn’t get him laughed out of history. Infantile behavior

>>12892204
>Vanguardism is Blanquism, not proletarian dictatorship
Fuck off Kautskyist. Hell, Stalin grew up poor and was forced to work in a shoe factory as a kid, and you still have a problem with people like him being in the vanguard. It's more like you just don't want revolution to happen period.

>>12891277
Haha faggot

>>12892167
I made a post calling you specifically a retard for your reaction and like a typical marxist retard you cannot handle being personally insulted and start crying and going on about how I need to read the entire thread because you're not even part of the original conversation? You're a fucking moron dude. Nothing you're posting is even coherent, and I was obviously bang-on here >>12892042. get help dude.

>>12892191
>>12892241
anyone who isnt 100% on board with managerial liberalism moral control freaks exerting total control over all aspects of life and culture is a ''neofascist''. views that were considered normal 5 years ago are suddenly off limits. shitlibs, even if they call themselves 'far left anarchists' are still stuck in a paranoid cold war frame of mind, russians and evil commies, i mean 'alt right natzee bigots' subverting society, and that is why everyone should toe the party line and obey our newly woke corporate masters, enforcing their culture of consumerism and conformity. leftists don't even care about creating anything new, they hate the working class more than anyone else, they think people are evil bigoted and need to be controled by properly credentialed anti fascist experts( YA cat ladies)

>>12892254
Stefan Molyneux, Richard Spencer, Lauren Southern, Andy Warski, Mike Enoch, Nick Fuentes, anyone else who dog whistles constantly for white ethnostates and so on. These ones, among many others, are popular on Youtube. There are still many more on other platforms with huge influence. In between all these obvious white nationalist/ fascist types are the retarded liberals and """centrists""" like sargon of akkad which enable and normalize those above.

In an ideal society I wouldn't have to give a shit about these retarded people, but since they have such huge audiences and influence they must be addressed as the problem they are.

>>12890020
Leszek Kolakowski - Main Currents of Marxism
marxism blown the fuck out in three volumes. covers pretty much everything.

>>12892349
Stop listening to internet centrists and liberals.

>>12892366
I thought he was a marxist himself?

>>12892358
>An ideal society
in an ideal society ethnostates would be perfectly normal, and commies would be worked to death in labor camps desu

>>12892367
This. Listen to paranoid leftoids instead.

>>12892373
used to be. then he realised it's a vile and ill-founded system.

>>12892303
>Backpeddling this hard
Its ok anon. No need to go projecting all of a sudden though.

>>12892358
These people are honest about their views. They aren't dogwhistling or pretending to hold different views.

>>12892358
>dogwhistle
apeximum yikes :(

>>12892358
anyone who criticises 'star wars' or thinks children shouldn't be indoctrinated by trannies is a 'problem' for you people. good, you are so radical for agreeing 100% with googles hr department, disney's marketing hq and the editorial board of the nyt.

>>12892398
Steven "I'm not a white nationalist but I am an empericist and I've been to Poland" Molymeme

>>12892367
yeah, you are right, I should listen to insane discord trannies who hate me and want to control every aspect of my life. and these people are just edgy liberals anyways

>>12892396
You are literally incoherent and illiterate. I identified your post accurately, it is the one, singular, post I was making fun of originally. I was and am making fun of you. I think you're a fucking idiot. You cannot weasel and misdirect your way out of being insulted. Its okay. I'm sure you will randomly start screetching about dicks again soon and forget all about this.

>>12892384
The current online right is the epitome of paranoid. Haven't you noticed them freaking out about being "deplatformed" by huge media companies with libtard agendas? Haven't you noticed how these libtard hollywood directors keep adding race-mixing couples to their movies and TV to push their "degenerate" agendas? They see this sort of conspiracy against them/their culture/their heritage (whatever retarded group identity they claim) in everything.

>>12892415
But they are being deplatformed...

>>12892384
the whole "discord tranny" meme seen here >>12892411 is another peak paranoia especially popular on 4chan's /pol/ (which has unfortunately leaked into other boards.
>Everyone who disagrees with me must be a discord tranny!

>>12892381
Are you one of the honest fascists?

>>12892415
Their analyses might be wrong but they are in fact being deplatformed and Hollywood is pushing a progressive agenda.

>>12892415
leftists only care about consumerism and conformity, making people watch the right tv shows, with the right representation of politically correct victimhood groups. modern day leftist culture comes from tumblr and livejournal, its a means of creating self policing consumer cattle, academia is the same at ahigher level.

>>12892413
>>12892413
In what way was my initial post wrong? The anons argument was entirely based on being contrarian and engaging in hedonism. If the other posts responding are him, then he himself admitted to such. I was just giving a vulger example of similar rational. Why are you so triggered about one post poking at such an attitude? Does the use of masturbation bother you so much? I could use literally any other equivalent example and the point would be the same.

>>12892415

As someone who switched quite a lot between the far right and far left, both IRL and online, i have to disagree.

The far right isn't as paranoid as the far left, at least not in the same way as the far left. Their paranoia comes from a certain sense of a persecution complex, which isn't entirely unwarranted, given how sites like Reddit tend to be harsher on far right subs than on far left one, although they're still more than able to circumvent this and propagate on all major platforms. But beyond this, they dont have any inner paranoia, which is the main problem of the far left.

The far left is extremely paranoid within itself. They see wreckers everywhere, have constant struggle sessions, and have no problem coming down on their former 'comrades' with seething hatred for even the slightest transgressions. If you come out too harshly against a certain form of idpol then you're immediately at risk of being branded a brocialists, a manarchist, or a TERF, and then the redguards will come down with you with a hatred that's rare even in the far right, apart from Manson-worshipping SIEGE-cults. This generally makes far left places very tense yet stale, since anything spontaneous and organic is extinguished because it might be problematic. It's no wonder that the far left is losing the youth to the far right, which is generally far more welcoming than the far left. 'Welcoming' in the sense that the far right sees converts, whereas the far left sees heretics.

>>12892421
Go dilate

>>12892452
You're a dumb retard anon.

>>12892457
>a hatred that's rare even in the far right, apart from Manson-worshipping SIEGE-cults.

Manson worshipping SIEGE cultists are chill tho. come to the dark side, we have cookies.

>>12892484
wait, is Mason r*ddit?

>>12892484
I actually felt unnerved after reading SIEGE. With the Anarchist's Cookbook it's sloppily written and generally not that extremely violent, but SIEGE reads like the diary of a serial killer.

>>12892491
You can say reddit newfag. You have to go back.

>>12892457
God this sargon of akkad-esque bullshit is so annoyingly common. If you want to see something stale reread your own post. This sort of fence-sitting centrism is what enables the right-wingers who want to exterminate/dislocate brown people to bring about their "ideal society" ruled by men with only white people.
>given how sites like Reddit tend to be harsher on far right subs than on far left one
hmmm I wonder why this is

>>12892358
>An ideal society would deny its people the right to self-determination to protect little old me

Emancipatory politics always come down to a deeply untreated narcissism. You will never realize it, but you are the problem.

>>12892503
Disliking authoritarian tyrants of all kinds doesn't make you a centrist fence sitter.

>>12892503
The problem with this faggot as well as the faggot it's responding to is that it takes these dumb cyclical arguments and attitudes at face value.

You're all full of shit whether you know it or not. The only actual discussions are made at the level of the forces that shape both of your basic bitch viewpoints in the first place in this moment in time, and whether those forces are desirable or not and in which way to quasi-act inside of them.(knowingly working towards a goal and expecting that goal to come closer to reality because of your actions is naive toddler shit)

>>12892503
>"displace" brown people by kicking them back to their own fucking places
>as opposed to flooding white nations with them at the expense of the local populace
You snakes are going to burn

>>12892506
I said an ideal society would be one in which I didn't have to deal with random retarded youtubers promoting/legitimizing the extermination of my peers within my country/our planet. Sorry (not really) I don't believe in your ethnostate and am thus a problem to you.

>>12892278
He worked as a shoe cobbler for an extremely short period of time, entirely because his father kidnapped and forced him to, before spending the rest of his youth in one of the most prestigious seminaries in Georgia, again because his mother was a massive whore who had an army of suitors at her beck and call. Lenin was a member of the land-owning gentry who never struggled a day in his life. If you think the Bolsheviks were anything more than opportunists cloaking their power-fetish in ideology then you are unsalvageable. If you wanted real revolution, Menshevik municipalism and genuine land-reform rather than Bolshevik centralization and collectivization would have brought you much closer to a workers' state. Once the USSR was thoroughly bureaucratized, the revolution was over.

>>12892502
>newfag
>not knowing the censor m*me
tfw you out yourself

>>12892503
the modern left is stale purely reactive, its not about revolution anymore, but about rooting out the invisible nazi menace. they are just another tool for corporate america and their social engineering programs of atomisation and prole mind control. Leftists have really nothing going for them beyond narcissism and a shallow culture of consumerism and conformity. They abjure all moral standards, hell any standards of any kind, aesthetic, cultural, beyond 'not being right wing', and the scope of the acceptable narrows with every passing day, that's why they attract the worst of the worst pathological narcissists, grifters, YA cat ladies. in the last instance leftists are pityful, they have lost all faith in themselves, they always see themselves as powerless, ideas not as productive instruments of liberation but as evil threats to be neutralised. leftism is not about economics is an intrusive psychopolitical regime, a religion without redemption, atheism without a sense of traged, it demands total control of every aspect of your life. I'm an overeducated aristocratic right wing anarchist working 9 to five and venting on discord trannies on 4chan.

>>12892503
>Fence sitting
Bruh, i'm far right and often call myself a fascist, but i dont buy into many of the far right pitfalls when it comes to far left critiques of capitalism, and i think far left critics like Adorno, Lasch, and Ellul have some very valid and valuable insights into the relationships between Capital, culture and technology (Ellul especially for that), and we should not dismiss simply because they were made by those 'on the left', like many /pol/tards like to do. I'm not sitting on the fence, but i have been active in both sides, mostly covertly when in far left circles.

But you have to face the facts, famalam. The modern far left is a fucking shitfest and it's not going to achieve anything anytime soon until it stops the purity tests and starts to reconnect with the people it has always claimed to represent. Right now the far left only has trannies, the mentally challenged, and wealthy bourgeoise kids who never had to work a day in their life. You can yell 'bash the fash' all you want, but none of those people can put up a fight, and it shows. It aint the 60's and 70's anymore; you're on the defensive now, and that's a losing position. If you do not reflect and adjust yourselves, then you are doomed.

>>12892535
>muh great replacement
Don't kill yourself when your whiteness dissolves into only the historical mechanism of exclusion it always was.
>>12892534
Is this schizo-posting? Basically incoherent

>>12892540
Yes, your ideal society is one in which the bodies are placed above the well being of than state itself and the desires of the community.
This is resultant of your untreated narcissism. You and your friends aren't important and if what is required to accommodate you lessens the resilience of the state in a broad sense, then your existence isn't really justifiable in any meaningful sense.

Why do you think you're so important? This post-war, UN enforced life-cult is starting to show its crack, you're sitting right above one of them.

>>12892566
I hope you're ready to die young and violently :)

>>12892571
KEK your LARPing is even more laughable than the tankie revolutionaries writing blogs about eating the rich.

>>12892570
What are the most important things in life in your eyes?

>>12892574
whatever you say :) I'm sure the economy will hold

>>12892580
The ability to exist in a state-oriented society that provides its citizens with enough to continue the western aesthetic tradition while rejecting cultures whose aesthetic traditions are mutually exclusive to it.

Participating in that is the only way that something as despicable as the human body can justify its existence in anyway.

>>12892587
Brother you realize things like mass immigration are a result of trying to make the economy "hold". The economy does not support your ethnostate

>>12892566
Yeah well see brah, im sure once were all equal africa will let my white ass in with open arms.

>>12892540
Your right not to hear their views doesn't trump my right to hear them and their right to speak them. And your attempts to censor them only convinces them that they need to take direct action because all means of dialogue failed.

>>12892566
Race will always be here to stay. The left itself has given into racial essentialism, though they delude themselves into thinking it's 'woke'.
It's never going away, better accept it.

>>12892593
I think he's saying that it's not sustainable no matter what is currently being done to prolong its suffering.

>>12892593
Don't call me brother you piece of animated shit. I hope that misguided patronizing will serve you well
>>12892600
correct.

We're auto-saged. See you guys next thread.

>>12892591
Now tell me what you really mean. This is an anonymous image board, you can openly say that you mean white people only by "western aesthetic tradition" and non-white people by "cultures whose aesthetic traditions are mutually exclusive to it".

>>12892600
>>12892638
A white ethnostate is not a good solution to capitalism's unstable nature.

>>12892656
So? They're not looking for an aufhebung of capitalism.

>>12892660
That anon seemed pretty worried about the economy and implied that his little ethnostate would fix it. Was probably just some nonsense he thought was somehow clever anyways

>>12892647
nonwhite people and trannies will destroy any semblance of beauty and truth as they care only for their narcissistic sense of victimhood. they are all the same, leftists don't want diversity they want to make us all the same, an homogenous herd of victims patients and consumers, with no independent thought

>Marxism is wrong because a bunch of liberals in America act like retards
There isn't even a far-left in America, let alone a far-left party
>>12892457
The far-left is in this state because literally anyone who did anything in the 60s to the 80s got either A) Killed B) Imprisoned C) Disbanded/Slandered or D) Subsumed. Everyone else left is now forced to deal with a thousand broken up tendencies, a history of bitter disagreements, and a generation of people who have grown up with zero exposure to any major leftist figures in the world. A generation in which the virtual world is where everyone spends their time and does anything. Hell leftism, actual real leftism, is gaining traction in the east again before anything meaningful has appeared in the west. People complain about the left as if it's problems came from the old left just capitulating to liberalism, but everyone seems to forget that after the New Left failed in it's actions to inspire people through propoganda of the deed and the USSR fell, leftism died. It straight up kicked the bucket and whatever is left now is people trying pick up the pieces and make sense of what is true or not. I suspect one of the reasons leftism is gaining traction in the east is that they have at the very least the history to look back at and formulate themselves around. In the west though, what is there? A bunch of liberal parties? At best some Socdems? A million trotskyist groups? Communism is either "the literal worst evil of the devil" or "absolute perfect equality that hasn't been tried yet" depending on who you ask. Both are garbage and born out of the complete inability of anyone at all to actually engage with people, discuss, and read. Leftism florished when people were put in situations where they had to socialize with each other personally to get by. Now? No one interacts with anyone besides Twitter posts and blogs. The left being shit doesn't mean I myself am not a leftist though, because I don't base my views on what stupid things other people do. I read Marx, I agree with Marx. That's all that matters to me, and whatever stupid shit Western liberals do doesn't mean shit to that. But it does make me lament how this generation, more then ever, is a generation of children.

>>12892683
At what point does white become non-white? Also, I think your caricature of leftists is unfair. Why do you think leftists disagree on so many things among themselves?

>>12892692
>The far-left is in this state because literally anyone who did anything in the 60s to the 80s got either A) Killed B) Imprisoned C) Disbanded/Slandered or D) Subsumed. Everyone else left is now forced to deal with a thousand broken up tendencies, a history of bitter disagreements, and a generation of people who have grown up with zero exposure to any major leftist figures in the world. A generation in which the virtual world is where everyone spends their time and does anything. Hell leftism, actual real leftism, is gaining traction in the east again before anything meaningful has appeared in the west.

The same goes for the far right since WW2, which has been demonized far more. Yet they saw that complaining about it and blaming the powers that be wasn't going to work, and decided to lick their wounds and play the long game, ironically using Gramsci's work for their own goals. This started in France in particular, but is now seen all over the continent.

Leftism in the East isn't Marxism, it's just bourgeoise romanticism. The Russians dont hark back to the USSR because they are inspired by Marx, but because it was a period during which Russia was a superpower. Likewise, most communist movements in the East were just fronts for nationalism. They long back for the red version of fascism.

While technological alienation is a serious issue, it has also proven to be a fertile ground for radical movements, and the far right has been able to fully exploit this, much more than the far left. Whether we want to or not, we're living in the information age, and the far right is more dominant there than the left.

>>12891338
>There is no proletarian, not even a Communist movement, that has not operated in the interests of money, and for the time being permitted by money - and that without the idealists among its leaders having the slightest suspicion of the fact.

As usual, Spengler is right about everything.

>>12892559
>>12892559
>spending the rest of his youth in one of the most prestigious seminaries in Georgia,
Which was a good thing because it allowed him to exit poverty for a while and obtain access to literature and books. After which he dropped out and began working with workers groups to organize strikes and protests. Stalin wasn't some guy who just sat down and gave orders in the years leading up to the revolution. He organized teams, robbed trains, extorted money from mine owners and threatened businesses to obtain funds which all went towards building the revolution. He was willing to any length, commit any necessary action, in order to further the cause. That's a singleness of purpose I can respect and one the left is missing today.
>Mother was a whore with suitors
His mother worked as the house cleaner of a priest, that's how he got in.
>Menshevik municipalism
The mensheviks were SocDem's with a coat of paint who had no problem with letting other capitalist countries involve themselves in the newly born republic. They had no vision and if left to their devices would have led the union towards it's immidiate destruction with their idealism. If you read how they handled spy's and infiltration in the past, you would understand why they had to go.

>>12892647
>Now tell me what you really mean. This is an anonymous image board, you can openly say that you mean white people only by "western aesthetic tradition"
The the aesthetic tradition cultivated by western peoples before it was reduced to pure comm. I don't necessarily white. I personally believe that all religious minorities from the middle east and the followers of Vedic faiths should be welcomed in and given special protections as dialect with those traditions is not corrosive to our own. I hate white nationalists/supremacists because their ultimate political goal is to create a society in which the political apparatus exists to lavish white bodies with pleasure and power to abuse non-whites. Theirs is a politics that is just as much a result of narcissism, a system of beliefs so obsessed with the body that it is practically nihilism. It's corrosive to any healthy sate-oriented society.

>non-white people by "cultures whose aesthetic traditions are mutually exclusive to it".
By that one I only mean the aesthetics of Islamic peoples, but that is because the West as a concept and aesthetic tradition was created to oppose.

>>12892647
>>12892838
I also meant to say that the obsession with discursive control the left has is freaky. They even come up with terms like "dog-whistles" so they can control what their opponents words mean. It's the epitome of dishonest, and is always done in bad faith.

>>12892745
>The same goes for the far right since WW2, which has been demonized far more.
Bullshit. The years following WW2, NATO took in multiple fascists into it's ranks, many of who obtained high ranking positions. The west began pulling back on it's demonization of the far-right, instead dealing with the immediate threat of the USSR and communism by both trying to suppress any form media which could be seen as pro-communist or sympathetic to the USSR and supporting and funding right-wing nationalist groups throughout the world. Don't talk to me about demonization when the US funded far-right death squads to fight the communists in Latin America, backed fundamentalist groups in the Middle East, gave weapons to fascists in Italy during the Years of lead, and supported fascists in Yugoslavia. The far-right received decades of material support from the west worldwide, and still does in places like Ukraine.
>Leftism in the East isn't Marxism, it's just bourgeoise romanticism. The Russians dont hark back to the USSR because they are inspired by Marx, but because it was a period during which Russia was a superpower. Likewise, most communist movements in the East were just fronts for nationalism. They long back for the red version of fascism.
This is a retarded anarchist/leftcom argument. In no way was the USSR fascist and it's a stupid analysis based on viewing all authority as fascist. There was no "nationalism", what existed was Soviet patriotism for the entirety of the USSR. What nationalism the USSR did support was emancipatory left-nationalist struggles against imperialism as such movements were objectively progressive in a socialist sense and allowed such countries to obtain both self-determination and control of their economy from imperialist powers.
>and the far right has been able to fully exploit this, much more than the far left. Whether we want to or not, we're living in the information age, and the far right is more dominant there than the left.
The far-left was destroyed while the far-right was allowed reform itself over the years. The left is in full recovery and has been since the fall of the USSR, while the right is re-emerging after being left alone and in many ways supported clandestinely for decades.

>>12892962
Dog whistles are very real. Just look at something like the "it's okay to be white" meme. It is seemingly innocuous so normalfags can't detect the subtext, but alt-right white nationalists and fascists loved it and promoted it for obvious reasons. As people become more aware of these dog whistles, these far-right reactionaries won't have any more memes to hide behind.

>>12893134
It's a response to standard leftist rhetoric about dismantling/deconstructing/destroying whiteness. Eve if those promoting it have more radical beliefs doesn't mean the message on the poster itself was at all.

Again, your claim at of dogwhistling is really just an attempt to dishonestly control the discourse rather than engage with ideas as they're presented. Academia is essentially just a think-tank thank cooking up new ways for the left to do just that.

>>12893204
you are so dense

>>12893227
You're just dishonest, and obsessed with discursive control. Your every word is spoken in bad faith.