/lit/ - Literature

>trying to stop desiring
>amazon recommends pic related to me
>begin desiring again

https://www.amazon.com/Rigveda-3-South-Asia-Research/dp/019068500X

Recommended reading for absolute beginners:

>baghavad gita
>upanishads
>yoga sutras
>vigyan bhairav tantra
>dhammapada
>heart sutra
>lotus sutra
>diamond sutra
>tao teh ching
>zhuangzhi

Anyone have favorite Traditionalist publishers:

Sophia Perennis
World Wisdom
Inner Traditions
Matheson Trust
Angelico Press
St. Herman of Alaska Brotherhood
Angelus Press
Prometheus Books
Numen Books (Brill)

>>12885746
I took a copy out of my local university’s library. The pricing on this edition is around 300.00 USD.

Pic related is my early Chinese reading list.

>>12885783
https://www.talkclassical.com/3179-primordial-tradition-magazine.html

>>12885712
>tfw too dumb to learn Sanskrit

>>12885783
These are the two main ones I recommend from Numen. Very enlightening if you are fed up with new age occultism.

>>12885838
To be honest, I am fed up with the occult in general.

Huston Smith:

>The Relation between Religions

>To the question of how to pattern these religions, three answers suggest themselves. The first holds that one of the world’s religions is superior to the others. Now that the peoples of the world are getting to know one another better, we hear this answer less often than we used to; but even so it should not be dismissed out of hand. The opening chapter of this book quoted Arnold Toynbee as saying that no one alive knows enough to say with confidence whether or not one religion is superior to the others—the question remains an open one. True, this book has found nothing that privileges one tradition above the others, but that could be due to the kind of book it is: It eschews comparisons in principle. Nothing in the comparative study of religions requires that they cross the finishing line of the reader’s regard in a dead heat. A second position lies at the opposite end of the spectrum: It holds that the religions are all basically alike. Differences are acknowledged but, according to this second view, they are incidental in comparison to the great enduring truths on which the religions unite. This appeals to our longing for human togetherness, but on inspection it proves to be the trickiest position of the three. For as soon as it moves beyond vague generalities—“every religion has some version of the Golden Rule”; or, “Surely we all believe in some sort of something,” as a Member of Parliament once ventured following a bitter debate in the House of Commons over the Book of Common Prayer—it founders on the fact that the religions differ in what they consider essential and what negotiable. Hinduism and Buddhism split over this issue, as did Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. In the nineteenth century Alexander Campbell tried to unite Protestants on grounds of their common acceptance of the Bible as the model for faith and organization. To his surprise he discovered that denominational leaders were not prepared to concede that the uniting principle he proposed was more important than their distinctive tenets; his movement ended by adding another denomination—the Disciples of Christ (Christian Church)—to the Protestant roster. On a world scale Baha’u’llah’s mission came to the same end. Baha’i, which originated in the hope of rallying the major religions around the beliefs they held in common, has settled into being another religion among many.

>>12885851
>Because this second position is powered by the hope that there may someday be a single world religion, it is well to remind ourselves again of the human element in the religious equation. There are people who want to have their own followers. They would prefer to head their own flock, however small, than be second-in-command in the largest congregation. This suggests that if we were to find ourselves with a single religion tomorrow, it is likely that there would be two the day after. A third conception of the way the religions are related likens them to a stained glass window whose sections divide the light of the sun into different colors. This analogy allows for significant differences between the religions without pronouncing on their relative worth. If the peoples of the world differ from one another temperamentally, these differences could well affect the way Spirit appears to them; it could be seen from different angles, so to speak. Stated in the language of revelation, for God to be heard and understood divine revelations would have had to be couched in the idioms of its respective hearers. The Koran comes close to saying just this in Surah 14:4: “We never sent a messenger except with the language of his people, so that he might make (the message) clear for them.” Having mentioned three obvious ways in which the world’s religions might be configured, we turn to what they might have to say collectively to the world at large.

>>12885783
You can add Fons Vitae to the list. Inner Traditions is only good for Evola.

>>12885873
>Fons Vitae

Thank you!

>Inner Traditions is only good for Evola.

Yup. Plus, the jury is still out whether Evola is good at all. Felt like it needed to be included, because...

Advaita Vedanta : A Philosophical Reconstruction

Eliot Deutsch

University of Hawaii Press

>>12885848
A lil' Egypto-Babylonian current balances out the PIE worship common to traditionalism.

Confucianism is trash.
>cuck yourself to authority bro
>accept your order of birth. A slave is a slave, a lord is a lord. Caste systems are the best way to run a society
>lick that boot bro, slaves don't need rights, now serve your master, let him beat you and fuck your wife
>do things because they are traditional, don't worry if they make sense or are really the best way to conduct things or not
>following ridiculous old rituals to a T and nonsensical social conventions is the best way to rule a country
>dont' confront injustice, just accept your lot in life bro
>fucking slaves get on the floor and scrub your master's feet, he deserves it for being born rich, you should have thought of that before choosing to be born poorfag, no justice or mercy for you dirty poorfags
>just do the same thing that's always been done, never try to change or improve anything
>everything can be quantified, even the proper length of time to mourn your dead parents
>dear leader knows best
Confucius was a charlatan. If you want to know why china is a backwards place full of retards and they do things like kill off endangered animals for penis enlargement chinese medicine, it's confucianism.

heil tengri

动态网自由门天安门天安门法轮功李洪志Free Tibet 六四天安门事件The Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 天安门大屠杀The Tiananmen Square Massacre 反右派斗争The Anti-Rightist Struggle 大跃进政策The Great Leap Forward 文化大革命The Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution 人权Human Rights 民运Democratization 自由Freedom 独立Independence 多党制Multi-party system 台湾台湾Taiwan Formosa 中华民国Republic of China 西藏土伯特唐古特Tibet 达赖喇嘛Dalai Lama 法轮功Falun Dafa 新疆维吾尔自治区The Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region 诺贝尔和平奖Nobel Peace Prize 刘暁波Liu Xiaobo 民主言论思想反共反革命抗议运动骚乱暴乱骚扰扰乱抗暴平反维权示威游行李洪志法轮大法大法弟子强制断种强制堕胎民族净化人体实验肃清胡耀邦赵紫阳魏京生王丹还政于民和平演变激流中国北京之春大纪元时报评论共产党 独裁 专制 压制 统一 监视 镇压 迫害 侵略 掠夺 破坏 拷问 屠杀 活摘器官 诱拐 买卖人口 游进 走私 毒品 卖淫 春画 赌博 六合彩 天安门 天安门 法轮功 李洪志 Winnie the Pooh 刘晓波动态网自由门

>>12885975
Based chinkslaying copypasta poster.

>>12885918
I can understand that. My major issue is twofold:

- dip a toe into occultism and you're instantly at Crowley.
- in my experience, occultism generally inspires darkness as opposed to light.

That being said, Western Esotericism pre-crowley likely has a lot of value. Traditionalism generally is antagonistic to it due to its basis in the reinessance (academically speaking, as I am aware the roots are 1-3 CE w/ Kabbalah, Gnosticism, Hermeticism, NeoPlatonism). Theres definitely some overlap.

Eranos group too, but I have my reservations there as well.

>>12885851
>>12885853
"Truth is one though the prophets call it by many names..."

>>12886019
>Kabbalah, Gnosticism, Hermeticism, NeoPlatonism
I'd say those are the major focus of the books. My interests as well. Ya. Crowley, unfortunately, did a lot of damage to the reputation of these systems of attainment. I guess you might say they are no longer viable paths as their initiatic chain has seemingly been lost but I find that studying such western systems and their particular form of reasoning helps aid the understanding of all religion as well as providing a look at the underbelly of ancient, modern, and contemporary western philosophy.

>>12886060
Agreed.
I've studied occultism/western esotericism for near a decade, so I dont discount your search. Much of my distaste for it is likely my own issue.

An alcoholic cant drink in moderation, but this doesnt mean drinking alchohol is wrong.

>>12885762
Is this something like "start with the Greeks" but for the East? Because if so, I'm totally on board

This seems like the right place to ask, what are the eastern equivalents of Edith Hamilton's Mythology? Specifically Babylonian and Japanese

>>12886113
Word. I can understand that.
>>12886140
Seems like it.
>>12885777
In addition to this Guenon chart and the aforementioned start with the easterner meme, someone should make an Eliade and/or Religious Studies chart.

>>12885838
Aaron cheak is a fool

>>12886140
Hopefully this posts in good quality.
Eastern philosophy chart.

>>12886153
Roberto Callasso did a beautiful modern retelling of Greek Myth called The Marriage of Cadmus and Harmony as well as two books on Indian myth entitled Ardor and Ka. His whole ouevre is incredible.

>>12885712
This is weird, each Eastern tradition is so different from the others. What kind of discussion do you expect to actually produce with a thread like this?
Imagine if I made a thread called "Western Philosophy Thread: discuss Western philosophy"

Just out of curiosity, where would you guys consider Oriental Christianity on the spectrum of religions? Oriental Orthodoxy, Eastern Orthodoxy, and Eastern Catholicism all have ancient pre-Islamic traditions in the middle east and parts India that according to Guenon, are still in contact with the primordial tradition. They were not brought there by European missionaries. I feel like many people completely cast them out of the picture. I would be interested in learning more about their relations between the different traditions and their spiritual practices. It seems like there is a huge lack of literature in English on them, though. Please help me out friends :))

The anons in this thread seem very friendly and kind. The whole thread is wholesome. I propose we turn this into some sort of general

>>12886187
He seems a bit of a fag from what I've seen but I found both books in that pic to be head and shoulders above the majority of esoteric literature (with the exception of Hanegraaff)

>>12885820
dude there are people right now that are eating with their hands and shitting on the street; and not necessarily in that order, that are learning Sanskrit

>>12886213
Thank you :^)
>>12886207
I think general threads cut down on shitposting or at least restrict the amount of shitpost threads about a subjext and attract knowledgeable anons so I would actually enjoy a western philosophy general but it would have to accumulate interest first. I just thought there was a lot of good discussion in the east v west thread up earlier that reached bump limit despite having a trolly OP and wanted to continue the comfy discussion.

>just finished Ashtavakra Gita
>it's basically all about doing nothing, caring about nothing and that nothing you do or don't do have any meaning
Was Shankara a depression case?

Well I like Advaitan metaphysics and i've been reading quite a bit about it, but how do you justify doing literally anything?

>>12885762
>vigyan bhairav tantra
this is not for beginners

>>12886313
Is the Bible depressive cause of Ecclesiastes?

>>12886313
I am no expert, but I think the point is to do without the thought of doing, to act in accordance with divine spontaneity. The point isn't just neet nihilism, but rather freeing oneself from all constraints and working to act without thought in accordance with the divine principle

>>12886293
IMO it would be more productive to have a "Hinduism General" "Taoism General" or "Advaita Vedanta General" or "Buddhism General," because just randomly mixing popular texts, terminology and ideas from wildly different traditions tends to lend itself to New Age type hippie shit.
That's just my opinion though, I might be wrong.

>>12886313
>>12886340
To add on to what I said, I think it can be summed up in western terms with the phrase from the gospels "my way is easy and the burden light." To act without the burden of acting is the transmutation of the alchemical lead into gold, as signified by the magician of the tarot. This is all taken from Meditations on the Tarot, a journey into Christian hermeticism if you are interested in reading more. I hope that helped somehow.

Anyone know if Hiriyanna’s Essentials of Indian Philosophy and Guenon’s Introduction to the Study of the Hindu Doctrines are good books to start getting into Eastern Philosophy?

>>12886356
I think Guenon's introduction is very good, although he moreso gives the westerner the correct tools for interpretation of eastern doctrines, rather than providing the doctrines ipso facto. I think this is a good thing, since you would want an actual constituent of the religion to go into further depth once the individual has gone beyond their modern biases.

Anyone that is an actual easterner in here? I want to know what people from the actual cultural traditions think about all the western teachers using things like Buddha/Jesus interchangeably. Is it a thing in authentic eastern traditions too?

Seems so fucking relativistic to me. I know easterners tend to not be as dogmatic as the Abrahamics but using bible quotes strewn into Advaita teachings makes it all seem so pointless. Especially since they seem so far apart.

>>12886337
No because the bible is a big book, and I don't think Christians derive their metaphysics and ethics straight from Ecclesiastes.

Advaitans do do that though, from the writings of Shankara.
>>12886340
Hmm that is interesting, thanks.
>to act in accordance with divine spontaneity
That seems possible in everyday life. But what about in war for example? The preparation of defending the homeland is drawn out and shouldn't such notions of "mine", "country", "duty" and the desire for these things etc be rejected? You can't exactly through spontaneity mount a defense.

I'd love to read whatever the Advaitins wrote during the muslim invasions of India for example!
>>12886352
I'll try to remember to read that book.

>>12886113
Why did you study it? What were you looking to get out of it, and what did you?

>>12886193
Not being rude, but why do Buddhist statues have such elongated ears?

>>12885762
I absolutely love these giant Buddha statues, so much. The epitome of cozy. Even better when a wild animal lies on it lazily.

>>12886485
IIRC it is because before Buddha went into the life of homelessness and poverty, he was a prince and they gave him these big fancy earrings which he took out when he left the palace.

Daoism+Buddhism+selective Hinduism = perfection

>>12885712
For the Buddhists in the thread:
http://www.buddha-vacana.org/
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/
https://suttacentral.net/
http://obo.genaud.net/backmatter/indexes/sutta/sutta_toc.htm
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/books/

>>12885712
A part of me finds Buddhism TOO comfy. Is that okay? It just feels so peaceful and embracing, from the outside, as if I've found the gateway to escaping my suffering and reaching peace, that I wonder if I'm just romanticizing it and that it's not the end-all-be-all philosophy-lifestyle I'm making it out to be.

>>12886556
Maybe you're only looking at Mahayana and later schools.
Check out Asubha practice, and talk to a couple hard-headed Theravadins and you'll see it can be a difficult path (though yeah it would seem that it is a be-all-end-all path, since I've never seen happier more peaceful people in the world than Maha Thera bhikkhus).

>>12885793
I’m stealing this list. Thanks anon.

>>12886556
If you're into real Buddhism, as in the Eightfold Path, and you know the Dhamma as expounded in the suttas, and you don't think that it's all about reaching enlightenment by being a hedonist, taking psychedelics, buying a Buddha statue and praying to the Buddha to send you to heaven, then I don't see what the problem is.

>>12886175
I would like to see a general Traditionalism/Perennialism chart or charts of other scholars in the Traditionalist School. Most people here know Guenon and Evola, but Coomaraswamy, Schuon, Burckhardt et al receive almost no love.

>>12886556
If you think you're romanticizing it, you might find this interesting:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/rootsofbuddhistromanticism.html

>>12886207
Sure, I can see that argument. However, there is a great deal of work done by traditionalists, perennialists, religionists, Eranos group types, to find a underlying root. However, it's not a secularly respected position.

>>12886208
Theres a great doorway into Orthodox thought from Traditionalism (if that's at all what you are looking for) due to the work of Seraphim Rose who was influenced by Guenon.

>>12886342
Truth is, these are actually Guenon/Tradition threads. Despite what they present as on the surface.

>>12886485
>Why did you study it?

It's where my energies directed. I felt it was more convincing than the regular religious currents. Then once it became apparent that it was fabricated (imo) it was because I loved the literature and the experiences it caused.

>What were you looking to get out of it?

Access to the underlying reality. Change in my station. Satisfaction. Then later, just the experiences themselves.


>what did you?

Honestly, due to the influence of Crowley (do what thou wilt) and just the general way of most occultists I've interacted with, it inspired indulgence and darkness, and nihilism.

I find that it does not inspire people to be better. That doesnt have to be the case, but that's just how it was for me. It has a drug like quality.

Not to say that there isnt usefull ideas, or that it doesnt have it's own beauty. Results will vary, I'm sure.

>>12885712
Hindufags, please help me in my hour of need.
I'm looking for a myth about a woman named (possibly) Kara Akal/Kaara Akaal/Kaara Ikaal.
The basic story is she is a beautiful princess, prays to Vishnu (maybe Shiva) and asks him to make her ugly. He does and she is turned into a joyful old hag. At the end of her life, she approaches a statue of Vishnu (or Shiva) and thanks him, telling him that she saved herself for him. She then dies and her soul floats into the statue or something.
If this myth sounds at all familiar, please point me to a source. I'd really like to find it.

happening to like the idea of something isn't the same as believing it, you cultural tourists.

Actually maybe it is nowadays. maybe "belief" is a fluid concept

>>12886586
This is true, we need to go deeper into Guenon, but also engage with his successors as well as the primary religious texts themselves. Anyone who has a grasp should absolutely feel free to contribute, even if it's a lesser known figure.

>>12886595
>Truth is, these are actually Guenon/Tradition threads. Despite what they present as on the surface.
If that's the case, it'd probably be a good idea to make that obvious somewhere in the OP or early posts of these threads, unless there is some motivation to draw people interested in Eastern traditions exclusively towards the Guenon/Traditionalist perspectives, displaying them as the correct/only perspectives.

>>12886595
Unironically, did you speak to "entities" of sorts? I don't really know much about occultism besides that.

>>12886313
excellent image anon

>>12885793
Don't forget the Lieh-tzu. It's a (distant) third big text on Taoism. Of course, there are many more Taoist works besides those three. Fabrizio Pregadio has translated several texts on Taoist alchemy (Neidan) such as The Seal of the Unity of the Three. Harold Roth has translated the Nie-yeh, which he titled as Inner Training. He argues that work predates the Tao Teh Ching, and that Taoism was originally a meditative mystical tradition.

>>12886609
Uzdavinys is good for neoplatonic mysticism.
>>12886616
I made the thread. I am more of a perennialist personally. But there is a definite religionist slant toward the philosophical interest.
>>12886620
Not him but I have.

>>12886616
This is a fair critique.

I dont think it's done to mislead. It seems to have resulted from the direct antagonism towards overt threads dedicated to Guenon. Calling the OP "guenonfag" and all that.

However, traditionalists take the individual traditions very seriously and are against syncretism. So anyone wanting to discuss a specific tradition will likely find willing partners here. In fact, it would likely be encouraged.

>>12886625
Thoughts on Thomas Cleary?

>>12886639
>Uzdavinys is good for neoplatonic mysticism.
I have his "Orphic Roots" book (unread). His intro to "Golden Thread" is incredible.

Do you have any thoughts youd like to share?

>>12886646
Too New Agey for my taste.

>>12886639
How did you contact them, what were they, what did they tell you, how was the interaction, and what are your afterthoughts on the experience?

Also if demons are real, does that mean God is real? Is it the Christian God or the Islamic one? If demons can be contacted, can Angels be too? Will an Angel directly help me in my life?

I don't think I'd ever want to do such a thing, but as an investigator of reality I do wish I understood exactly what's out there. I wish that science would eventually explore this realm, and put together a real encyclopedia of the supernatural that became as mainstream as our current ones involving the animal kingdom. Please share your experiences.

Documentary about an Ashram/gurukulām that I watched yesterday. It was pretty interesting, didn't look as comfy as the documentaries on Buddhist monasteries I've seen though
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ilycpat6Vt8

Quite a few westerners there too.

>>12886213
4chan Buddhists are among the friendliest of posters you'll find here, in my experience. Nothing but benevolent towards me. And no, I'm not a Buddhist just plugging my faith. :P

>>12886382
Who actually does this though? Do you mean gurus on Youtube?

>>12886674
Neoplatonism is fascinating. Especially its historical relation to modern thought. For so long, Neoplatonic interpretations dominated the Christian, Muslim, and Jewish world insofar as they read Plato and Aristotle. The whole wide intellectual history of the West basically. I would suggest obtaining the complete works of Plato and Aristotle. Not necessarily to plow through immediately but for reference. Golden Chain is a great start. Orpheus is a bit esoteric and speculative but sums up his work quite well. Rite of Rebirth and Theurgy are deep and complex. Dillon's and Wallis' are considered the standard intros. I enjoyed Remes' Neoplatonism too -- a slim volume summarizing the basics of Neoplatonism. Gregory Shaw is dece. Hadot is good. Kingsley's first volume is pretty good. He is kinda pretentious in all subsequent however.

For authors I suggest: Plotinus, Poryphry, Proclus, Iamblichus, and Macrobius. Corpus Hermetica and Chaldean Oracles are relevant but veer on occultism perhaps. Thomas Taylor has translations of a lot of these works. There are also modern translations.

Pseudo-Dionysius too if you're interested in Christian angelology.

There's some good stuff on Pythagoreans in one volume that collects them all if you are interested in that too. Might wanna pick up a general Presocratic too.

>>12886641
Well then, people who shit on outright Guenon/Traditionalism threads should know that by forcing Guenon-posters to conceal their threads as "Eastern Philosophy," they're doing a disservice to the discussion of Eastern traditions outside the contexts of traditionalism and perennialism on this board.
I am of course trusting you when you say that people only shit on OP when it is an outright Guenon thread, as I have personally only ever seen that happen when the thread is thinly veiled as an "Eastern thought" thread, but is loaded with posts about Shankara, Vedanta and Guenon, OR when someone thinks it's a good idea to start posting about the superiority of Shankara and Vedanta in a completely unrelated thread, such as a Buddhism thread. However, this is probably due to the fact that I never open Guenon threads.

>>12886605
"Scholars know little but believe very strange things..."

>>12886727
>Do you mean gurus on Youtube?
Yeah pretty much.

>>12886763
Which ones? I used to watch a few but never saw them do that. I'm not doubting you though. What you described is what the New Age movement largely consists of.

>>12886721
Prior to the post you're replying to, I don't see a single post about Buddhism, but rather stuff about Vedanta, Traditionalism, Hindusm and Daoism (with the exception of one post which mixes in Buddhist texts like the Dhammapada in with other Eastern texts from different traditions, such as Hinduism's Bhagavad Gita).
I'm only making this neurotic correction to ensure that you don't think all Eastern philosophy/religion is the same thing, and that you know Buddhists follow Buddhism, Daoists follow Daoism, and Hindus follow Hinduism.
Unless you are just talking about Buddhists on /lit/ in general, then my post is unnecessary.

>>12886701
I don't really wish to discuss such in depth in this thread but I have encountered many strange things and have many doubts still. There is always room for doubt. But always also faith. Personally disbelieve in abrahamic religions tho.

I like your idea. I investigate writings on the subject often. I do not think anyone quite gets it. Perhaps not even myself.

>>12886770
Swami Sarvapriyananda does it quite a lot, and he seems quite popular on 4chan. Other do it too but i've watched a bunch of different so I can't remember who said what.

>>12886802
It's a neovedanta thing.
>2019
>only reading from one culture and one religion
>laughingdevotees.jpg

>>12886786
Can you at least leave a few words here, of what you learnt? Just curious is all, not judging you or expecting perfect insight.

>>12886741
>>12886774
Sorry. Not that poster. Agreed on both counts. But in response to your thoughts on the recommendations, is it any worse than a start with the greeks meme that includes all different schools of greek thought? I guess the greeks are united by a common mythology but some reject it entirely...

>>12886802
>>12886808
Sarvapriyananda's based, though. Seems like he's just well-read, and given that he does talks in America he wants to broaden the pool of wisdom he draws from. Maybe he's muddying the doctrines, though. He seems like a very kind and cool guy. Not a pseud or a con-man, like many gurus are.

>>12886774
Yeah don't worry, I was just assuming they were in this thread and that they're generally in these threads, and was stating my personal experiences with them as always being pleasant. It would be too broad to say "Eastern anons" are always friendly, and it's not entirely true, but I was chiming in that from my experience, Buddhist ones very often are.

>>12886827
I believe that spiritual experiences are very real. I am unsure whether they are proof of anything supernatural. Occult forces may exist but I believe science will eventually explain them - even if it is a soft science or philosophical scientific explanation. Unitive states make it likely that God exists. I am a bit too cynical for that however. Before demons and angels there was simply daimons for the greeks. But greeks divided between theurgist and goes and a light and dark side to magic and entities. Magic and madness go hand in hand. One might add enlightenment to that list as well. My own theories are a bit crazy and convoluted but I can explain more in depth or recommend some books if you wish.

>was into chan buddhism just long enough to realise I was a weeb that hated weeb culture
>got into existentialism, continental philosophy, not particularly attached if they might be wrong
>want to get back into the eastern again
Any recs or should I just start with everything?

>>12886808
Yeah I don't know.. I want to be taught by the traditionalists, the Advaitins that want to build the Ram Mandir and reconquer Sindh. I want to be taught Buddhism by the Burmese monks that believes upholding Dharma is best done by filling mass graves with the women and children of the Rohingya.

If they're not fundamentalists then I don't want to know them.

>>12886836
Yeah overall he's good. His recent video on Maya was nice and the book the recommended The Seven Great Untenables was a great read.

>>12886850
Well, I just thought that if you've contacted "entities" before, that you could simply share what they were and what you learnt from it. So far I have heard about succubi, demons and a few other supernatural entities people have summoned. Not sure if real, but interesting to ponder. I thought your story was similarly straightforward.

>>12886845
Ah, my bad then. I am just being extra vigilant of syncretism, in fear of newcomers being presented with messy garbled interpretations of whatever tradition they might be genuinely interested in learning about.

>>12886856
This
>>12886526
is a good chart if you want to get back into Buddhism. It is mostly fundamentals, so it might be easier to get into than Chan or Zen. I know Chan and Zen can oftentimes be confusing and even vague to a newcomer.

>>12886866
Oh. Well, I briefly tried to contact my hga (lol crowley). Got some sort of transmission. Don't know if I learned any "truths" but the message seemed important at the time and I still hold some of it to heart. Don't know if I really believe it was real. Been trying to reintegrate lately. I perceived "it" as a beautiful woman with a beautiful voice.

>>12886869
No problem, good on you for considering things like that :)

>>12886856
This is a good analytic philosophy book about buddhism.

>>12885712
Is Vedanta the only tradition that aligns with the notion that "everyone is one", "reality is a mirror", "a singularity experiencing itself as multiplicity"?

Because those are my basic beliefs, and I just want to know if I can still believe in them even if I get into something like Buddhism, which presumably doesn't align with that? I personally see everyone as one being, multiplied across the number of beings in reality, and the addition of each being having ego making things appear as a multiplicity, when really it was only one being multiplied to make many more beings still identical to the one. If Buddhism doesn't agree, and assuming I don't agree with Buddhism's refutations, can I agree with other aspects of Buddhism but still hold to my Vedantic view? Do I have to subscribe to one or another doctrine entirely?

>>12886856
This is a good analytic philosophy book about yoga.

>>12886356
yes on both

>>12886929
I think buddhism is more about pure difference and multiplicity or at least nothingness altho sometimes they sneak monism in through things like buddha nature.

>>12886929
It would presumably be much easier to make meaningful progress in a tradition if you're fully aligned with it, rather than having one foot in one tradition and one in another.
However, if you are not concerned with such progress, then I see no reason why not to take what you like from each tradition. Buddhism's explanations of morality and virtue seem especially universal anyways IMO.

>>12886929
>>12886957
As I understand it, Buddhism rejects monism, annihilationism and monism as well.
It acknowledges that there are 'beings' in the colloquial sense, but every being's sense of separateness or self is false, an illusion, and in ultimate reality there is no one to die and live. There is only death and life, no one is doing the living and dying, however.

>>12886732
Great post, lots of info here. I wish I knew enough to even have a dialog.

The idea of emanations, a hierarchy of being on into the absolute, virtues as forms beyond nature, plus its relation to the prototypical figure of western philosophy, Plato, makes it appear very fruitful.

Guenon approved of it. It had a massive impact on the Christian tradition, which I also enjoy. I've been wanting to dig into Borella once I've a better grasp of Guenon.

The whole Orphic, Pythagorean, Platonic, Neoplatonic chain is also fantastically evocative. Plus it's a nice counter to the heavily eastern aspects of traditionalism that turn some away.

The platonic virtues, along with stoicism, also gives my resolve against weakness.

>>12886869
Vigilance against syncretism, trad approved.

>>12886929
>>12886957
As I understand it, Buddhism rejects annihilationism and monism as well. I have also never really seen emphasis on "nothingness" but rather "emptiness," which I imagine you might've been referring to.
It acknowledges that there are 'beings' in the colloquial sense, but every being's sense of separateness or self is false, an illusion, and in ultimate reality there is no one to die and live. There is only death and life, no one is doing the living and dying, however.
I would also highly recommend truly and honestly challenging your beliefs to figure out the truth, rather than selecting a tradition's view of reality based on what feels right and fits your current view.

>>12886971
But what if I personally disagree with some things in one tradition, and agree with other things in another, and the opposite applying as well? I probably can't follow these traditions formally then. But personally I don't like the concept of "religion" whereby a person's entire philosophy has to be given to them by a previous set of thinkers and scriptures, without allowance for individual opinions. Maybe these traditions don't expect that though, and I've just misunderstood them.

>>12886971
It's a tight rope isnt it? We study the other traditions so we can more clearly see the underlying primordial truth; but, we also have to focus on depth and practice in one tradition so as to avoid running around the circumference of the circle collecting exoteric trinkets, rather than plunging to the depths of the esoteric path in front of us.

This is a strength I have not developed yet.

>>12886996
>But what if I personally disagree with some things in one tradition, and agree with other things in another, and the opposite applying as well?

Eranos, plus go.

Jk, it's a fair argument. I think you'll find it's a matter of focus than anything. They're not advocating dogmatism (they told western muslims to drink so they didn't stick out).

The argument is that by sticking to a tradition you will plunge deeper and deeper into the primordial truth, rather than moving about on the surface from one tradition to another. Sometimes you follow things you dont really care about to get to the metaphysical realization. If you chose Islam, you might not care about drinking, but it could help to refrain.

As a side note, even Schuon (Guenon's student) failed to refrain from the allure of syncretism.

>>12886996
>>12887006
I can't speak for other traditions, but Buddhism famously advocates not accepting Buddhism in its entirety just because the Buddha said so or etc etc, but rather to practice the path and test your beliefs that way, in order to find out what is true and what is not. So for instance, one could practice in the tradition of Buddhism without accepting the teaching anatta (not-self), and could hold off judgement on the validity of that teaching until the day comes when one is able to experientially discover the truth of the matter. Essentially, don't accept or reject teachings until you know firsthand, experientially that they are true (not through intuition or logic). This can all be found in the Kalama Sutta:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.065.than.html

>>12887027
Good post, this seems reasonable to me.

>>12887022
What do you make of the Eranos - CIA conspiracy?

>>12887050
Have never heard of it, please explain.

>>12887056
Some people think it's a shill / counterintel group. Idk.

>>12886929
You might find these suttas interesting on the Buddhist view of self/soul/atman:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.059.nymo.html
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn44/sn44.010.than.html
Buddhism largely concerns itself with observation of reality here & now as it is immediately experienced. Questions of what is outside experience are largely considered irrelevant because they cannot be known. And within experience, nothing that can be considered a "self" or "soul" or "essence" is to be found.

>>12887066
I honestly wouldnt be surprised. When you look at it, Eranos is directly New Age, not even several steps down from it. Plus their pushing Gnosticism is questionable to me.

Eranos, as I see it, are artificial in that they created ideas, didnt discover them. Was Jung true, probably not. Campbells myth cycle true, probably not. Was Eliade and eternal recurrence true, maybe but it seems fabricated.

The mode I learn, the more distasteful they are. However, I'm coming off a years long occult binge, so anything that starts looking that direction immediately turns my stomach.

I imagine they have helped many, this is just my reaction.

>>12887141
Would it be wrong of me to say:
Buddha taught right action to reduce the pain of existence.

>>12885938
there's a reason confucianism is for the chinese and not the white and black races

>>12887149
Yes, but that is wrong in a way you probably didn't expect. Pain is inevitable in life, as is pleasure, as are neutral sensations that are neither-pleasant-nor-painful. What the Buddha taught is the path to the cessation of suffering, not pain. There is a difference between pain and suffering.
The workings of dukkha (commonly translated as suffering) are very very subtle, caused by attachment/clinging to the Five Aggregates, form (or matter or body) (rupa), sensations (or feelings, received from form) (vedana), perceptions (samjna), mental activity or formations (sankhara), and consciousness (vijnana), as being self, satisfying, or permanent/lasting. This is an extremely subtle process that is uprooted by the Noble Eightfold Path, and is most directly known through the deepest stages of Vipassana meditation.

>>12887149
One of my favourite suttas for illustrating a very surface level way that we create unnecessary suffering for ourselves, is the Sallatha Sutta:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.006.than.html

>>12887194
Beautiful, thank you for sharing.
I will now say: Buddha taught right action to reduce the suffering inherent to existence.
Though, I imagine restricting it to right action is wrong by omission.

"Right action to reduce suffering" seems workable as a mantra throughout the day.

>>12887144
I wouldn't be surprised either. Tactical potential seems obvious. Plus the relations between church and state in all times and places has been malleable and subject to subterfuge.

Little less suspicious of new ideas than you but can see your perspective. I like the ethnographic turn in religious studies personally. Satisfies both the religionist and skeptic in me.

>>12887215
The Eightfold Path consists of eight practices: right view, right resolve, right speech, right conduct, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right samadhi ('meditative absorption or union').

>>12887215
Right Action is to eliminate suffering, but so is the rest of the Eightfold Path.
Also, I would say he taught for the total cessation of suffering, not just for its reduction. Many times the Buddha even summed up his entire teaching as "the truth of suffering and the truth of the cessation of suffering." The promise of Arahantship is the promise of the complete cessation of suffering.

>>12887141
But is it objectionable that you and I are merely the same being, speaking to itself from different locations in space? Does Buddhism never proceed to a multiplicative position, that acknowledges the identicality of all beings? Is this where Hinduism and Buddhism diverge, with the former conceiving of a transcendent self that is all beings and also their sum, while Buddhism remains "individual", albeit denying the existence of identity?

>>12887215
>>12887237
It should also be noted that the ending of suffering is progressive, and a massive amount of suffering is ended with each stage of awakening (stream-entry, once-returner, non-returner, arahant). It's not like it's all struggle until you become an Arahant. Canonically, lay followers can reach up to the state of non-returner. Some Buddhists like to suggest that even after following the Eightfold Path, one is lucky to even become a stream-enterer after an entire lifetime, let alone an Arahant. I, however, do not subscribe to this sentiment. There are many reports of people diligently following the Eightfold Path and becoming stream-enterers, and life-long lay devotees reaching states which perfectly match the descriptions of those of the once-returner and non-returner. I cannot say the same about "lay Arahants" because they are canonically not possible, only monks can be Arahants. This is not a problem, however, because once one reaches even stream-entry, they are safe, in the clear. They have 7 more lives at most until they reach final Nibbana. Not only that, but the stream-entrant's suffering is massively reduced here & now in this very life. In addition to this, even one who has not reached any attainments, should still see a reduction in suffering directly proportionate to their adherence to the Noble Eightfold Path.

>>12887200
>>12887226
>>12887237
Thank you. I obviously have a great deal to learn. I was gifted a buddha statue recently and I guess it fooled me into thinking I knew anything.

>>12887221
>ethnographic turn in religious studies
I am not familiar with this. Would you mind sharing?

>>12887141
Those discourses don't refer to the same subject as the Vedantic view on Self which that poster implied they agree with, which uses Atma in a totally different sense than it is used in the PC discourses, in those discourses, Buddha says that all phenomena, determination, perception, feeling etc are not-self, which Advaita agrees with. In Advaita and arguably the Upanishads also the Self is the pure awareness prior to any conceptualization, in the words of the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad "He who dwells in the seed, and within the seed, whom the seed does not know, whose body the seed is, and who pulls (rules) the seed within, he is thy Self, the puller (ruler) within, the immortal; unseen, but seeing; unheard, but hearing; unperceived, but perceiving; unknown, but knowing. .... This is thy Self, the ruler within, the immortal. Everything else is of evil.'"

Everything that Buddha points to as not-self Advaita would agree is not Atma, the only possible exception is consciousness, but even that doesn't agree with the Advaita view because Buddha identifies consciousness as something that is involved in affliction whereas Advaita says that any sort of quality or attribute is non-self. By the vary fact of observing and being aware of suffering/affliction one is engaged in a subject/object distinction which shows the object is non-Self, so that would imply that Buddha was using "consciousnesses" in some sense that implies the larger mental faculty and its actions instead of the pure awareness itself that Advaita regards as Self. Buddha doesn't refer to or refute Upanishadic teachings about Atma in any of his discourses.

>And within experience, nothing that can be considered a "self" or "soul" or "essence" is to be found.
This is of course the Buddhist view but many would disagree, the Vedantins would argue that the pure awareness itself is the Atma. Also, just because something cannot be 'found' does not mean that it does not exist; for example Vedanta says that the Self can never be grasped in the same way that fire cannot burn itself, this doesn't mean it doesn't exist though. If there was an eternal base-awareness prior to and illuminating everything else, it would make sense that the awareness could not directly grasp itself. If there is no 'self' then that sort of begs the question of "who is experiencing this moment then? Some Buddhists like Theravada say that it is the subtle body, which has its own flaws as an answer, other schools like Yogachara in an attempt to remedy this came up with quasi-selves like the 'storehouse-consciousness'.

>>12886382
almost all of us speak english yet nobody here has used that to teach it in an oriental country while actually living that type of life.

>>12887257
I'll try to answer this as best I can."You" and "I" are just clusters of aggregates (form, sensations, perceptions, mental activity/formations, consciousness) that are subject to clinging. We are separate beings only in that "my" experience of the aggregates is different from "yours." Beyond the aggregates and the clinging, there is no being or soul experiencing the aggregates, or doing the clinging. There is only the clinging and the aggregates subject to it.
Saying that every being is actually one "True Self" that is experiencing all consciousness and perception subjectively through the illusion of "different people" is still clinging to the Five Aggregates as self, just in this instance you are including the experience of the aggregates by other beings into your clinging/identification, and not just your own. It is not much different from clinging to your "individual" experience, but it is just on a grander scale. It is still, however, clinging to aggregates as "self" all the same.
I am merely expounding what I understand to be the Buddhist view of this topic, I'm not shitting on Hinduism. Hindus please no bully

>>12887280
>ethnographic turn
https://www.le.ac.uk/oerresources/media/ms7500/mod1unit6/page_05.htm
Google digged this up. Seems relevant.

>>12886382
>Buddha/Jesus interchangeably
>Seems so fucking relativistic
Isnt it the opposite of relativistic, because they're saying Jesus and Buddha pointed to the same underlying truth. Relative would be if I claimed they're both different moralities based in different domains and neither is superior inherently.

However, I think you are pointing to the Traditionalist's issue with syncretism. The line between drawing comparisons to view an underlying truth, and arbitrarily syncretizing traditions into one abomination that hides the truth is very thin.

>>12887290
>Also, just because something cannot be 'found' does not mean that it does not exist
It also doesn't mean that it does exist either. Buddha points out what is not self, which is why a better translation of anatta is "not-self" rather than "no-self." Buddha said that questions about what exists or does not exist outside of experience are irrelevant to the accomplish-able goal of ending suffering. Therefore in Buddhism, the question of a "Self" or Atma outside of experience is irrelevant.
>If there is no 'self' then that sort of begs the question of "who is experiencing this moment then?
The Buddhist response would be that there is only experience, and there is no one doing the experiencing. The idea that there has to be something or someone doing the experiencing apart from the experience is an illusory tendency of the common, ignorant mind.
>Some Buddhists like Theravada say that it is the subtle body
I don't consider myself Theravadin, but I will say that AFAIK Theravadins only consider subtle bodies to be a siddhi, supernormal power, and not much more. Certainly nothing constituting an 'experience-r.' I have never met or seen a Theravadin with such a view that the subtle body is the one doing the experiencing. I cannot speak for Yogacara.

>>12887302
>the virgin traditionalist teaching english in the orient
>the chad continental teaching english in france

I have enjoyed reading through the writings on Kevin Sheppard's website, I probably will order one of his books. Some of you guys may find some of the writing here to be interesting.

https://www.kevinrdshepherd.net/html/faq_menu.html

He writes very informative articles on various religions and critically but fairly examines various types of eastern philosophy. He also shits all over modern charlatans like the French post-structuralists/modernists and new-age hacks like Ken Wilber.

>>12887383
>the virgin traditionalist takes a vow of chastity.
>the chad continental impregnates many women in the name of amor fati.

>>12887389
Reading now. Interesting. This article is good:

https://www.kevinrdshepherd.net/html/15___on_greek_philosophy.html

Reminds me of the friesian website ( http://www.friesian.com/history.htm ) . Funny how academia is subject to the vissectitudes of pop culture and counterculture and so on. Sometimes alt stuff is nice.

>>12887381
>what exists or does not exist outside of experience are irrelevant
Yes, but the consequence of this is the proliferation of innumerable schools trying to explain what's actually going on such that nobody even knows what he actually meant. Even the Theravada PC differs from pre-canonical/sectarian Buddhism. If he had been more explicit he maybe could have prevented a lot of misunderstanding and competing speculations from arising.
>The idea that there has to be something or someone doing the experiencing apart from the experience is an illusory tendency of the common, ignorant mind.
This is just partisan rhetoric, people who are inclined to agree with Buddhism may settle for that argument but others may find it to be nonsensical and say that if there was no one experiencing anything than experiences wouldn't be experienced as such and that there has to be a subject for a subject/object distinction to occur.
>I don't consider myself Theravadin, but I will say that AFAIK Theravadins only consider subtle bodies to be a siddhi, supernormal power, and not much more.
Subtle body is sometimes used a shorthand in eastern religious philosophy to refer to things like the 5 aggregates or whatever other scheme people substitute for it. Vedantins and others sometimes critique Buddhist teachings about the aggregates while referring to it as the subtle body despite clearly referring to the 5 aggregates.

>>12887340
As Borges says, "When you quote others you cite yourself."

>>12887461
Jesus, is this comment some abominable feedback loop.

>>12887442
The blue links in those articles link to further articles by Shepherd on those subjects btw

>>12887324
I'm Hindu, and upset, and I'm going to BULLY you, anon! Just kidding, original asker here. Yes, that's a great explanation. I can actually agree with what you said there on the nature of clinging and aggregates, but is it wrong to at least acknowledge that all beings could still therefore be seen a "single aggregate-clinging function"?

I'm sorry man, I just love the view of reality as a "web of all perpectives within it", and even though I can acknowledge no-self, I still like to see things in terms of a larger, omnipresent fabric. A kaleidoscope of all perspectives as it were, including everything, since I personally believe awareness is fundamental and universal, ergo in everything (panpsychism). I'm not trying to create some larger construction, subsequently identified with, but moreso to account for multiplicity in a unifying manner. That's what I appreciate about the Vedantic model. But I'm sure that this distinction is serious, and separates a Hindu from a Buddhist. I'm not claiming mine to be right or yours to be wrong, just that I love the way this attitude has made me view reality, in my personal life. trying to fathom the uncountable perspectives around me, and the singular body which all of us can be seen as belonging to. It just personally enriches my view of reality, and makes me far-less ego-centered, I find. Even though you might certainly be right, in it being another identification only pulling me away from the true nature of existence.

You don't have to respond, and I'm not trying to taint Buddhist doctrines, just sharing the views I find attractive. I'm such a pleb though to be quite honest, I do subscribe to the Alan Wattsian view of reality too, namely of being the "universe experiencing itself", in the sense that our species is no different to any other phenomena found in reality, be it trees or water or clouds or otherwise, and everything we do merely partaking in a pre-existent nature belonging not to us, but to whatever our source is. I'm sorry if this is tremendously pleb, I'm not a hedonist nor a New Ager but I just don't think there's anything faulty in the above attitude. Also, namely how it solves the "problem of universals", in that oneself, being the universe, can naturally understand the universe that is oneself. How could anything in the universe be understood, if you and the universe were not one?

>>12887491
>I'm Hindu, and upset, and I'm going to BULLY you, anon!

Oh god, this is so great. I'm dying.

>>12887481
>>12887491
Would the set of all sets have itself as a member?

>>12887482
Even better!

>>12887453
>This is just partisan rhetoric
The discovery that there is no self to be found in experience can be known directly through insight meditation, and is commonly known by many practitioners around the world through insight meditation.
If this question seems to faith-based for you, allow me to try something logic-based. You would not say that the wheels of a car are the car. You would not say that its engine, interior...etc are the car. They are just parts. It is only a car when all the parts are together. In the same way, one would not say that perception alone is self, that feeling alone is self, that mental fabrications alone are self, that consciousness alone is self, because the sense of self only arises when all these parts are together. Because sense of self or doer only arises as a product of a series of parts working together (feeling, perception, fabrication, consciousness), there is no essence to it. The sense of self is only as valid as the sense that a car is only a car after all its pieces have been put together. Ultimately there is no essential car, it is just a series of pieces that are all not-car. The sense of car is constructed afterwards, and does not exist in ultimate reality, which is a series of parts that cannot be considered car. Similarly, the sense of self is constructed afterwards, and does not exist in ultimate reality, which is a series of parts that cannot be considered self.

>>12887496
:P

>>12887517
dangit, i can't answer this. did you and Russel just BTFO my entire system of monism, anon? :(

>>12887453
>This is just partisan rhetoric
The discovery that there is no self to be found in experience can be known directly through insight meditation, and is commonly known by many practitioners around the world through insight meditation.
If this claim seems too faith-based for you, allow me to try something logic-based. You would not say that the wheels of a car are the car. You would not say that its engine, interior...etc are the car. They are just parts. It is only a car when all the parts are together. In the same way, one would not say that perception alone is self, that feeling alone is self, that mental fabrications alone are self, that consciousness alone is self, because the sense of self only arises when all these parts are together. Because sense of self or doer only arises as a product of a series of parts working together (feeling, perception, fabrication, consciousness), there is no essence to it. The sense of self is only as valid as the sense that a car is only a car after all its pieces have been put together. Ultimately there is no essential car, it is just a series of pieces that are all not-car. The sense of car is constructed afterwards, and does not exist in ultimate reality, which is a series of parts that cannot be considered car. Similarly, the construction of the sense of self is only possible afterwards, and does not exist in ultimate reality, which is a series of parts that cannot be considered self.

>>12887554
Russell keeps me up at night. Goedel too. Funny enough, leads alot of analytic folk to god too somehow...

>>12887491
Again, relating to my other post, questions of whether you are "the universe experiencing itself" or of what exists or does not exist outside of experience, are ultimately irrelevant because the answers to these questions are unknowable. Only experience is knowable, and that is what Buddhism deals with. The Buddha taught the truth of suffering and the truth of the end of suffering.
I suspect a tinge of materialist influence in your thought, as you assume an objective universe which precedes your experience that has produced you. This is not an insult, just something I would consider, as it is really easy for a Westerner to be influenced by materialism for obvious reasons.

>>12887453
Also, I'm aware that even Theravada differs from pre-sectarian Buddhism in small but important ways, throughout the commentaries. That is why I said I don't consider myself Theravadin, but rather just Buddhist. I follow the teachings of the Early Buddhist Texts, and I am open to the teachings of all sects that do not contradict those teachings. I appreciate stuff from Theravada, Mahayana, Zen, and Vajrayana.

>>12887402
>the virgin hegelian advaitan
>the chad deleuzean buddhist

>>12887568
>The discovery that there is no self to be found in experience can be known directly through insight meditation
This doesn't mean anything, every religion can and does say that the truth of their religion is revealed as self-evidently true with enough prayer, meditation, reflection etc. Do you not realize how ridiculous it makes you look when you claim this? Also, I have attended insight meditation courses before and and they just teach the illusion/falseness of the empirical/conventional self, and not anything that resembles the Atma of Vedanta. You seem to still be under the wrong impression that the Atma of Vedanta and the Atma of the PC are the same thing or similar and that buddhist teachings about the latter apply to the former.

>You would not say that the wheels of a car are the car. ... Because sense of self or doer only arises as a product of a series of parts working together (feeling, perception, fabrication, consciousness), there is no essence to it.
The Vedantins would say that all of these experiences of perception and feeling are themselves observed by a continuum of awareness (or Awareness/Atma) which itself remains unchanging, and that this is self-evidently true. No matter what one experiences, one always is aware of that experience/perception through a prism of awareness in which all conscious experience takes place. They would agree that all observable phenomena (like thoughts, perceptions etc) are not-self but point to the ever-present continuum of awareness as the Self through which all these are observed. A changing stream of unreal phenomena constituting the mind, thoughts, perception etc presupposes an unchanging continuum which observes them.

There is also a long history of Mahayana sutras agreeing with these same sort of sentiments about a pristine awareness being the true """self""" behind the conventional self (ego):
>The Śrīmālādevī Siṃhanāda Sūtra teaches the reality of an ultimate, immaculate consciousness within each living being, which is the Buddhic "Dharmakāya" (essence of Truth), which is yet temporarily sheathed in obscuring defilement. This Dharmakāya, when viewed as intrinsically free from spiritual ignorance, is said to constitute eternity, bliss, the self, and purity in their perfect state

>According to Dharmak?ema's extended version of the (Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra) sutra, this "true Self" is eternal, unchanging, blissful, pure, inviolate and deathless:
>(from the Sutra) if the non-eternal is made away with [in Nirvana], what there remains must be the Eternal; if there is no more any sorrow, what there remains must be Bliss; if there is no more any non-Self, what exists there must be the Self; if there is no longer anything that is impure, what there is must be the Pure.[27]

Dont know if this is accurate.
Any critique?

>>12887785
This still makes assumptions about something outside of experience, preceding experience. A true self which precedes and pervades the experience of all beings, yet only your own experience is knowable. Such matters are unknowable. Only experience here & now is knowable.

>>12887785
I will admit that I have seen Western "Pragmatic Dharma" Buddhists suggest that the Buddha was pointing to the same thing as Vedanta and that it was just different language being used to describe the same thing. I don't subscribe to that belief but I will not disregard it as I don't know what the case is myself, one way or another yet.
I still plan to follow Buddhism though, because in my opinion it is the most comprehensive and beautiful, self-contained, internally consistent system I have ever seen, for the pursuit of the cessation of suffering.
I hope Vedanta works for you.

>ITT: call center employees

>>12887785
And if you're still here, if I can get another post in:
In response to your assertion that there is awareness that remains unchanging, I will say that awareness+consciousness are conditioned. They arise/cease/change according to circumstances, and have an object that they depend on, and they only exist insofar as that relationship to the object. If you break the relationship to the object of consciousness or awareness (the object being, for instance, form, feeling, perception, thoughts) then there is no justification for the concept of awareness or consciousness, what would there be for it to be aware or conscious of? Awareness and consciousness are dependent on having an object, and therefore cannot exist independently as some sort of ever-present, unchanging continuum. If there is no object, it can't be present.

>>12887841
>这些词都知道的时候,那个感觉

>tfw Buddhistanon extended a conciliatory hand and was willing to agree to disagree but the partisanship inculcated in him made him change his mind and delete his post to continue arguing
you were so close! it's too bad

>>12887842
>This still makes assumptions about something outside of experience, preceding experience.
It is not something 'outside' but is intimately bound up with experience, every perception of unreal phenomena taking place 'within it' in a sense; but in normal mundane existence the Atma is confused with the unreal phenomena it illuminates. Shankara and Dzogchen Buddhism some centuries later both used the same metaphor about a clear crystal seeming to take on the color of the cloth it is placed next to while remaining unchanged itself.
>A true self which precedes and pervades the experience of all beings, yet only your own experience is knowable.
Knowable through it, as the seer of sight, the hearer of sound and so on. The pure experiencing and abiding subject through which all subject-objects relations are made cognizant, but which is different from all those objects as well as the ego or anything else pertaining to the body or individual. It is not considered to be permanently 'unknowable' (although it can never be known in a subject-object duality, for this would impose limits on it which is considered to be infinite and unlimited as Brahman, so anything in a duality is never Atma/Brahman), but rather when one attains moksha according to Vedantic teachings one is considered to realize the truth of and abide as the pure awareness alone.

>>12886188
>presocratic tier crap stretched over thousands of years

sad!

>>12885746
https://b-ok.cc/book/2613251/28bc40

>>12888081
>It is not considered to be permanently 'unknowable' (although it can never be known in a subject-object duality, for this would impose limits on it which is considered to be infinite and unlimited as Brahman, so anything in a duality is never Atma/Brahman), but rather when one attains moksha according to Vedantic teachings one is considered to realize the truth of and abide as the pure awareness alone.
>>12887785
>This doesn't mean anything, every religion can and does say that the truth of their religion is revealed as self-evidently true with enough prayer, meditation, reflection etc. Do you not realize how ridiculous it makes you look when you claim this?
I will agree to disagree now, though. I just deleted my post because I still had more to say but didn't want the discussion to end.

>>12888097
>The Sautràntika is the most critical school of Hînayàna. It led, on the one hand, to the rise of the Mádhyamika absolutism, and on the other hand, to the Vijñánaváda idealism. The Sautràntika recognises two elements in the constitution of empirical knowledge, (i) pure sensation which comes from the thing-in-itself (svalaksana) or the unique momentary particular which is the unrelated real (dharma), and (ii) relations which are imposed on it by the constructive ideation (kalpana) of the a priori categories of thought. Thus the Kantian analysis of knowledge, many centuries before Kant, was formulated and developed in the Sautràntika school.

>>12886526
Excuse me, Buddhist here. I am looking for a epub of the Sutta Nipatta to continue my study. Thank you kindly and peace to all sentient beings. May we all be free from suffering and filled with happiness.

>>12888337
The translation included in the chart is really bad and inaccurate, unfortunately.
AFAIK, Sutta Nipata is actually one of the hardest early Buddhist texts to find even moderately good translations of, because it contains many discourses on some of the deepest concepts in Buddhism, and because it was originally written in an older, different form of Pali than the rest of the PC.
That said, I have a PDF here you can read:
http://www.ahandfulofleaves.org/documents/suttanipata_norman_1997-2001.pdf
The Pali Text Society translation of the Sutta Nipata is the only one I would recommend as being accurate and credible. In general I would recommend the PTS for their translations of the entire Pali Canon, but I would most especially recommend them for the Sutta Nipata over others.
I wish I had an epub to send, but I don't. I hope someday the PTS publishes all their translations online in ebook format. Hopefully you don't mind reading PDFs.

>>12888398
Thank you for your efforts friend. May you be at peace.

>>12888429
My pleasure to help out.
Hope you gain a lot from reading it!
A lot of people will comment that the Pali Canon has no literary value like other religious texts do (such as the Bhagavad Gita), but in its original language it is filled with beauty and skillful use of literary devices, all written in meter. The only translations I have seen that come close to replicating that beauty are those by the Pali Text Society. Next time you're reading suttas on obo.genaud I recommend checking out their translations.

>>12888429
Oh my gosh, you guys are probably the only ones on this whole site who speak so kindly like this. It's just so nice to even observe secondhand...

>>12888471
I do my best to be courteous to every one I meet. I have suffer from schizoaffective disorder, so being kind helps make the voices go away sometimes.You have a blessed day and may you find yourself free from suffering.

>>12888337
>>12888471
There should be a Buddhist board lol
That'd be a total anomaly on a chan site.
It does feel weird coming to /lit/ for Buddhist discussion.
It's not the only place I go, I'm part of a couple social media groups, and I mostly come here to help out the curious newcomers who might be interested.
I also find that there is a small but growing population of earnest Buddhists on /lit/ untainted by hippie culture and 'spiritual' consumerism. Perhaps that is why I like coming here.

>>12888486
Hey anon if being kind helps, I would imagine that metta meditation would help a lot too.
Metta is one of my favourite practices in Buddhism. Working it into daily life is great too, mentally directing metta towards everyone you see.

>>12888506
I am a beginner of meditation, but I do find it brings me back to lucidity when I do so. I am focusing more on vipassana for now before I start with metta.

>>12888509
Just be careful, dry vipassana (as in, without samatha or metta) can bring on some difficult mind states commonly referred to as the dukkha nanas.
https://accesstoinsight.org/ati/lib/authors/mahasi/progress.html
I would recommend finding extra time in your routine to add in metta at some point in addition to your Vipassana practice. It tremendously counteracts some of the rougher intermediary states Vipassana can bring on, and can even eliminate them entirely.

>>12888531
I see. I will do so then. I wonder if anyone in this thread has achieved stream entry.

>>12888536
Hard to say. I know mentioning the site can bring on some strong emotions here, but r/streamentry on Reddit and r/themindilluminated seem to be pretty solid places for meditation discussion, even if they have a secular "pragmatic Dharma" bias. You might be interested in checking there for more discussion about all this stuff.
Or there is a couple facebook groups I can direct you to if you like, which would be loads better than those subreddits, in traffic, quality of discussion, and general sense of community. Just say the word and I'll link you.

>>12888551
I would ask for information on said facebook groups. Thank you.

>>12885712
>non-literature thread
>'general' thread
>'eastern philosophy'......not all anons may agree with 'traditionalism'

>>12888598
fb dot com slash groups slash saaaaadhu
Here you go. That's the best one I know of. Hope you find some use from it.
Took awhile to reply cause I was figuring out how to get past 4chan's filter
I imagine you'll figure out how to fix that into an actual link haha

>>12888639
Havent you heard?
/lit/ is a Guenon board.

>>12888694
then why are you too pussy to name the thread accordingly instead of hiding behind the wide umbrella of 'eastern philosophy'? Afraid the mods might find you again?

>>12888707
reminder:
>>12886741

>>12888707
I'm traditionalist, and upset, and I'm going to BULLY you, anon!

Jk, believe it or not, I'm not the original guenon poster, nor the thread creator. I just genuinely like these threads, they help keep my mind on being a better person.

Theres pleanty of legit discussion on Hinduism, buddhism, all that in this very thread. Traditionalism is against syncretism, so talking strictly about each tradition, as itself, happens constantly.

Hey fellow eastern peeps, whats your favorite hadith? I can't decide between the one about Muhammad (SAW) taking a bath with his child bride or the one where he orders a divorced wife to wed some stranger if she wished to remarry her old lover again.

>>12886741
>people who call out guenonfag for his disingenuity are actually responsible for geunonfags pussyfooting

lmao this is just precious, that schizo is now blaming us for sabotaging his image and 'forcing' him to conceal threads. Is this the how Vedantins conduct themselves? is this the kind of integrity the non dualist internet ascetics posses? The dude is the epitome of a fake guru, displaying his 'wisdom' on the outside but is an actual scumbag on the inside.

Hey remember when you/he tried to start a 'non dualism general' thread on /his/ awhile ago and utterly failed (pic related)? Yea I do lol. Just to remind you that geunonfag was solely responsible for the destruction of traditionalism in this board 2 years ago with his unrelenting spergery (which resulted in the trad exodus) and has since done every dirty trick in the book to revive it, only to make this board hate traditionalism even more.

So I don't know why you're even taking his side in these threads (hurr he a good boy dindu nuffin, its those meddling 'anti-guenonists' that are the problem, btw im not guenonfag). He's just going to drive you to the ground again.

>>12888845
The last two threads have been 100% unantagonostic, with the exception of people hating "guenonfag."

More than 80 individual posters last thread, 31 posters this thread. Several ongoing discussions of trad, Hinduism, and buddhism.

People like these threads, why not just post in a thread you like?

>>12888941
well are you going to rename the next thread appropriately then? Or are you going to keep this charade going until some theosophyfag confronts him and that one guenon loving anon that isn't you, flips out and loses his shit.

Quit being disingenuous.

>>12888845
>trad exodus
There were more Traditionalists on /lit/? How many were there? Where did they go?

>>12889013
Reddit probably? Guenonfags antics and mods banning trad generals repelled them away from here.

>>12889013
If you want to learn more about this. Read Black Sun by Nicolas Goodrick-clarke, excellent book which sums up all post-1945 occultist nazi movements. Not just Savitri Devi, but also Nazi ufology, satanism, Julius Evola, Guenon, Order of Nine Angles, the nihilists who think Hitler and Charles Manson were prophets of new religion...

>>12888964
I havent seen anyone flip out. Hopefully nothing like this happens. The threads have been super respectful.

>>12889063
Evola is only even tangentially related to Esoteric Hitlerism. Netiher Devi nor Serrano are heavily influenced by him. Putting Guenon in that category is almost offensive.

Dualist gnostic racism and nondualist religionists traditionalism are not even close to the same. Serrano is closer to Jung and the Eranos group than Trad.

The rest of the aryan occult racism is basically Blavatsky and Von List. Meaning it's all new age gnostic fabrications.

Only really connected through a common belief in Hinduism.

>>12889063
>Order of Nine Angles
Fill me in on them. Are they the so called luciferian global elite Charles Upton warned us about?

>>12885712
Any tips on how to become Sufi?

>>12889095
Honestly, O9A discussion isnt for here. Theres usually stuff on /pol/ and /x/ about it.

They really have no power and are not the counter initiation described by Guenon and Upton. Those actually in power dont care about O9A at all.

>>12889095
They are a cult of nazi satanists, and not the edgy kind of satanism like the LeVayan brand either.

>>12885777
how can you take someone who CHOSE islam as their religion seriously?
im honestly curious..

>>12889108
Are their metaphysics pure or corrupted and further from the truth (ie theosophy)

>>12889073
so the next thread is going to be 'trad general' then?

>>12889166
Didn't Guenon take Islam as allegorical closer to Taoism? I know he didn't eat halal

>>12889166
Yeah i'm weird out by that too, it's such a silly religion and Muhammad was clearly just a mentally ill person.

Not sure exactly how the Sufi's managed to create what appears to be such a deep tradition out of that.

>>12889260
Like I said, I dont make the threads.

>>12889253
It is absolute, unadulterated bullshit. Theosophy is undoubtedly so much more accurate, and its bullshit too. But this should be obvious, who looks to nazi esoteric Hitlerist satanism as metaphysically viable?

>>12889264
>>12889268
His view was that any viable tradition would work. Hinduism wasnt really open to foreigners, and Christianity had lost its initiatory chain. You will note he wrote very little on Islam, and tons on Hinduism.

For a more sympathetic view, I recommend Huston Smith's chapter on Islam in The Worlds Religions.

>>12889166
>>12889268
Read Understanding Islam by Frithjof Schuon, Sufism is a process philosophy with Abrahamic aesthetics.

>>12889284
>Like I said, I dont make the threads.
then would you prefer it that way?

>>12889295
I understand in Islam, the true reading reveals Allah is basically Tao. Muhammad PBUH is human aspect, the triad

>>12889297
Sure, I wouldn't mind.

One downside would be those who know eastern philosophy (but dont know Traditionalism) might not know they are welcome. Which would hurt the threads because while Trad is a framework, the individual traditions in their purity without syncretism is a massive part of that.

So a Trad/Eastern Thought thread would be my preference.

At this point, everyone knows anyways. There are guenon posts from the start in every thread.

>>12889295
Can you expound on this?

>>12889295
So are Sufi's considered heterodox? Do they consider the Quran to be the literal word of God?

>>12889355
Not the original poster, but heres what I've heard. Dont know about Schuons beliefs.

Sufism is esoteric Islam. It is not heterodox, it is for those members of Islam who wish to take their devotion to the mystical level. If a Sufi disavowed Islam, they would be a heterodox Sufi, rather than sufism being heterodox to islam.

>>12889355
They are heterodox, why ISIS targets them is because of their interpretation of the Quran. Of course the mainstream understanding of Islam, and the one further from being accurate, is Allah as a constituent of the process, this page early on gives the idea

>>12889379
>>12889383
ISIS is not orthodox Islam.

Sufism is esoteric Islam. It is heterodox to conservative salafists, but how is that your basis of what is Islam?

>>12889404
Islam is whatever is outlined in the holy Qur'an + authentic Hadiths, which made it very clear the basis of Islam as a unitary tradition. There is no such thing as 'esoteric islam'. Islam is Islam.

>>12889415
Well it hasn't been a unitary tradition, because it has many denominations. The major antagonism is from Salafists.

So once again, why are you basing what is true Islam on what Salafi Islam says.

>>12889166
I think Guenon made a huge mistake choosing Islam over Taoism.

>>12889477
Wouldnt this be counter to Guenons whole endevor?
The perennial truth is supposedly present in all viable religions. This being the case, his joining Islam over Taoism is immaterial. The important thing is picking a tradition and following it completely.

>>12885820
You're not too dumb to do anything so long as you are ablebodied and of average intelligence, all it takes is time and effort, sometimes you might have "fallen off" somewhere, all that's needed is to back and figure out where exactly you lost track - ex. if you struggle with a certain area of math it might require you to go back to pick up what you missed out on in order to go forward, of if you speak a language but don't have a good understanding of the mechanics/grammar etc. all you need to do is go back and pick it up, it's important to remember that everything is difficult in the beginning prior to getting the hang of a skill or understanding a concept, but with time and effort, sometimes requiring you to change your approach (say a new book or textbook, a new method of note taking, study tactic or method of learning, etc.), but nothing is outside of your reach. Don't put labels on yourself like stupid or genius because inevitably we all go through situations which make us look "stupid" by missing something obvious or "smart" by performing a task well, but once you believe that those are fixed labels - that you are frozen as "smart" or "stupid" and that status will never change, that's when you doom yourself to negative experience, as we are all in a constant state of flux in between all similar labels, none of which are static, none of which stick, our actions define who we are and we are in control of those actions. You can do whatever it is you want to do, I believe in you.

>>12889527
wholesome. thank you anon.

>>12885712
I really want to try living with some of the Sufi communities in the Democratic Republic of the Congo next time I visit (as I'm development economist). Any good books pertaining to African islam specifically?

>>12889013
There was never any exodus, Guenon and traditionalism steadily gained in popularity on lit over the last 4-5 years, that's just a bad-faith argument used by people. There is a select group of people on lit who have an autistic extreme hate for Guenon/traditionalism. They try to derail every thread by complaining about ''guenonfag', going so far as to lie and say that they themselves like him but that this anonymous 'guenonfag' ruined everything. Notice how they never have anything to say about Guenon himself but just try to derail the thread with complaints. In like every other thread they accuse people of samefagging and then get btfo when people reply to them minutes later with screencaps showing that person did not make both posts. It's best to just ignore them, they clearly have some issues.

>>12889295
Sufism is much closer to non-dualism/advaita than process philosophy

>>12889527
How similar to Sanskrit is Hindi? The local university is offering a Hindi course but no Sanskrit courses.

>>12889415
That's wrong, Sufism is esoteric because Sufi orders typically only reveal their teachings, and especially higher-level ones to people who have joined their order and who have demonstrated the necessary prerequisites. This fits the very definition of esoteric. Sufi orders trace their teachings to the Prophet and claim that their teachings comes from him, that he revealed esoteric teachings to a select group of people and not others; and that these were the first Sufis. This is supported by the hadith in Bukhari about some guy saying that he memorizing two teachings from the Prophet and that if he revealed the 2nd his throat would be cut.

>>12889560
t. guenonfag

>>12889631
>99% of people should not get near any form of book or knowledge.
Holy fuck that is evil.

>>12889631
>plebian mentality should be violently repressed. 99% of people should not get near any form of book or knowledge
based

>>12889631
>99% of people should not get near any form of book or knowledge
yikes

>>12889631
>99% of people should not get near any form of book or knowledge
Holy based!

This thread was moved to >>>/his/6414261