/lit/ - Literature

>not immediately realizing that Joyce was a hack
I suggest you get your IQ tested, just in case :(

it's a borderline-schizo dad-dancing with English on the floor of history. it's got nothing to do with people and not much to do with reality.

Yeah, I’m sure this supergenius was pulling an epic troll when he spent seventeen years of his life writing this through poverty and disease.
It’s hard to read anyways, might as well just toss it in the bin and read some Stoner or Book of Disquiet :)

>>12857061
imagine posting on a forum dedicated to literature without being able to appreciate/completely understand finnegan's wake

he didn't know what to write anymore, so he regurgitated random shit to impress the critics

>>12857108
>actually believing he spent seventeen years writing this
God i wish i could see the face behind this stupid post

>Finnegan's Wake

>>12857108
>I've put in so many enigmas and puzzles that it will keep the professors busy for centuries arguing over what I meant, and that's the only way of insuring one's immortality. - Joyce

>>12857126
wa la

>>12857061
Its important to read it as a reaction to the Kant thing that to Joyce humanity has bound itself within as metaphysical black box from which it cannot by conceptuality ever hope to extract or free itself. From this is the philosophical link: speculative realism, similar to Land, attempts to "access" the Outside/noumena without the terms of the subject. The point of departure is that Lad tries to do it in metaphysical terms, whereas Joyce's wild performance antics/writings were an attempt to go beyond language at all, a bit like some of the crazier parts of Fanged Noumena.

>>12857126
It was 17 years from the time it was started to the time it was published, retard.

>>12857061
this book is hard af, it's the final boss of english literature. he did it to solidify his legacy as the greatest english writer since shakespeare

>>12857137
KEK

>>12857136
He, verifiably, told people close to him exactly what it was “about.”
You sound upset you know you’ll never know.

>>12857147
the final boss of english literature is finding a gf

>>12857157
delet

>>12857144
That's true, but he spent way less than 17 years actually writing it. Learn to read.

>>12857147
Why is it so hard for some people to realize that HARD and OVERCOMPLICATED ≠ GREAT?

>>12857104
what the fuck is "dad-dancing"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1g_UHV42jOA

>>12857157
FUCK YOU I JUST WANT TO TALK ABOUT BOOKS

It's the ultimate and greatest pseud filter.
Literally no one actually reads it, to have average retards trying to lecture you on its symbolism and shit only solidifies their status as pseuds.


Never, EVER trust someone that tells you they like it, that it's a "must", or drivel of that sort.

>>12857184
Retards actually read it and then believe they form opinions on it haha.

>>12857184
There are professors of literature who have spent their entire lives studying it, legit wtf are you talking about? Project much

>>12857190
>>12857193

Case in point. Please learn to identify buffoons quick so you can mock them accordingly.

>>12857193
Many people have wasted their lives on a lot less.

>>12857217
Yeah, like studying any other book besides maybe the Divine Comedy.

>>12857061
it was his way of saying that literature is all bullshit that led to his eyesight going bad and to fucking go outside you fucking incels

>>12857193
Professors studying it?! Kek, that's absolute bullshit. I can assure you there are no academics who even take that shit seriously.

>>12857223
>maybe

>Finnegans wake is a meme, nobody can actually read it and enjoy it

The amount of projection and ignorance in this thread is astonishing. Finnegans wake is a masterpiece, and contains some of the best prose in the literary canon. Reading this book all the way through is pure joy.


"My great blue bedroom, the air so quiet, scarce a cloud. In peace and silence. I could have stayed up there for always only. It's something fails us. First we feel. Then we fall. And let her rain now if she likes. Gently or strongly as she likes. Anyway let her rain for my time is come. I done me best when I was let. Thinking always if I go all goes. A hundred cares, a tithe of troubles and is there one who understands me? One in a thousand of years of the nights? All me life I have been lived among them but now they are becoming lothed to me. And I am lothing their little warm tricks. And lothing their mean cosy turns. And all the greedy gushes out through their small souls. And all the lazy leaks down over their brash bodies.

>>12857334
Nice try, pseud

>>12857315
I can assure you there are no academics, but yes back when people actually studied literature this was taken seriously. I’m not sure if you realize, but there have been a great deal of doorstoppers written on this book.

>>12857334
hahahaha what a retard

>>12857334
“we strike hands over his bloodied warsheet but we are pledged entirely to his green mantle; our friend vikelegal, our swaran foi; under the four stones by his streams who vanished the wassailbowl at the joy of shells; Mora and Lora had a hill of a high time looking down on his confusion till firm look in readiness, forward spear and the windfoot of curach strewed the lakemist of Lego over the last of his fields; we darkened for you, faulterer, in the year of mourning but we'll fidhil to the dimtwinklers when the streamy morvenlight calls up the sunbeam;”

>>12857343
All doorstoppers on that book say the exact same thing: >woah primitive universal language it's the restoration of biblical babel tongue woah experimentalism.

Nothing of worth. People are just impressed by "how did he do it?!", and so are you. Too bad, though, that being impressive and overcomplicated doesn't equate to good or intelligent. The book literally says nothing.

>>12857374
You can believe that if you want. I’m not sure why nothing upsets you so much.

>>12857374
>The book literally says nothing
Except that it does, and you have no idea what you're talking about. The irony is that the people ripping on this book, who likely haven't even read it to begin with, are the ones who seem like pseuds.

>>12857394
>reading finnegans wake
Yikes.

Isn't the point of Finnegan's Wake Joyce's use of archaic English and modern English? Incorporating slang, colloaquialisms, jargon, mythological references, double entendres, etc?

I thought the charm was that he used a two hundred year old slang word from regional butfuck Ireland to describe something?

I've read the entire thing. AMA.

>>12857223
studying any single work for your entire life is pretty fucking cuck-tier desu

>>12857429
What about religious or historical texts?

>>12857394
>When Ezra Pound, a former champion of Joyce's and admirer of Ulysses, was asked his opinion on the text, he wrote "Nothing so far as I make out, nothing short of divine vision or a new cure for the clap can possibly be worth all the circumambient peripherization."

>H.G. Wells, in a personal letter to Joyce, argued that "you have turned your back on common men, on their elementary needs and their restricted time and intelligence [...] I ask: who the hell is this Joyce who demands so many waking hours of the few thousands I have still to live for a proper appreciation of his quirks and fancies and flashes of rendering?"

>>12857550
based Wells

>>12857550
Imagine being Pound and seeing FW as a work in progress and shitting your pants that it would grow to out-class the Cantos and having to go, "Heh, that's nothing."

>>12857061
Nabi hated it.

>>12857394
>>12857567
>Nothing but a formless and dull mass of phony folklore, a cold pudding of a book, a persistent snore in the next room... and only the infrequent snatches of heavenly intonations redeem it from utter insipidity

>>12857166
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dad_dancing

>>12857589
>>12857550
Opinions of other authors really shouldn't be your go to when trying to formulate an argument. I recall Woolf's spiteful opinion on Ulysses, which was entirely out of jealousy and recanted later in life

I've read a few pages of FW. It's beautiful, boring bullshit. That said, I respect JJ for writing it. He followed his gift where it wanted to go.

>>12857411
How should I approach it? Should I just listen to the audiobook? The musicality of the language seems to be half the point. Did you find Ellmann or Campbell’s insight to be of any help? Should I consult them before or after?

>>12857677
>I recall Woolf's spiteful opinion on Ulysses
Yes, Woolf was narked Joyce was aiming at a similar thing. Protecting her territory. She shouldn't have worried because she did it better.

You'll never understand that book if you don't listen to the song that inspired Joyce to wrote it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EfJuGiDsoVA

>>12857695
What did she do better?
inb4 bait

>>12857695
No, she just resented the fact that a low class Irishman was able to write so well. She was very snobbish.

That said, I love Woolf. The Waves is one of the few books I've read that have made me cry

>>12857708
Taking it to the next level.

>>12857157
Kek

>>12857711
>She was very snobbish.
I don't think she was.
Septimus in Dalloway - no snob could've written that character.
Also hearing that lecture where she bangs on about "words" - she didn't have a snobbish attitude to language.

>>12857715
Took what to the next level lmao

>>12857721
You should read John Carey’s book on intellectuals from the era. She was a renowned cunt, “snob” is putting it nicely

>>12857711
>I love Woolf.
You're a good man. One of my fantasies is going for a pint with her in a proper dive and being an annoying faux-naif yokel and dropping f-bombs.

>>12857677
Honestly, dude, you couldn't be more wrong. If there's an opinion that matters, it's exactly that of another writer, not certainly of your cucked literally who professors. And just so you know, a huge amount of authors have mildly expressed their doubts about FW. "Doubts" means they didn't like it, though. The difference is that you pretend to like it even if you don't get a single thing. Your only argument is "but it's one of the greatest books ever written!". Why? How? What does that mean? Are you one of those simpletons who determine that a book is a masterpiece just by counting the number of pages? Or by checking the quantity of crical texts written on it? Well, one word for you: kek.

>>12857726
Will do that sounds super interesting

>>12857722
Fiction bro lmao

>>12857726
>She was a renowned cunt, “snob” is putting it nicely
can you remember any specifics of her cuntiness?

>>12857726
ordered that carey. looks good.

>>12857748
>If there's an opinion that matters, it's exactly that of another writer
No one's going to judge you if you don't read Finnegans Wake, bro. You don't need to appeal to snide remarks by competitors to justify it.

>>12857754
based lmao

>>12857748
Finnegans Wake is a masterpiece because of its following of aesthetics in language towards its conclusion. Aesthetics, or figuring out what exactly is beautiful in literature, is clearly what Joyce cared about the most. If you understand that, it only seems logical that Finnegans Wake would be the culmination of his work. The entire book is an aesthetic experience. And that isn't even to say anything of the books subtle narrative, of which I assure you there is. I cried when I reached the end of the book and realized its implications.

>>12857748
>The difference is that you pretend to like it even if you don't get a single thing.
you can like something without understanding it.

>>12857748
Imagine hating puns this much.

>>12857775
you're based kek

>>12857791
lmao love you bro

>>12857778
>implications
what were they anon? spare me the 18 hours of wading in mick guff

>>12857793
lmao

>>12857773
>posting blooms
Opinion discarded.

>>12857778
Nice post, thanks. I respect your opinion, even if you sound pretty fake and gay with that crying detail. But I respect your opinion, really.

>>12857781
Oh, sure you can. However it's a fact that most people dislike FW even if they understand it.

>>12857783
I do not hate, hatred is for internet boogeymen like you.

>>12857799
Continuity of existence. The book ends with the acceptance of death and fading out of consciousness, and begins with the full expression of the narrators last thought.

ITT: Brekkek Kekkek Kekkek Kekkek

>>12857825
That sounds, dare I say it, pretty damned based.

>>12857825
Generic as fuck. Again, you said nothing, just like the book.

Great way to navigate in your own smug void.

>>12857825
spotted the pseud

>>12857840
I think that you may just not be cut out for literature. I could write an essay for you and you probably still wouldn't be any closer to getting it

>>12857849
Wow, and now this post? You're truly a champion in offending unknown people on the internet!

>>12857840
>>12857845
fucking state of you lads

>>12857297
>it was his way of saying that literature is all bullshit
>and to fucking go outside you fucking incels
Sounds familiar

>>12857894
K fag, let's stop tho

>>12857905
No. CONTINUE.

>>12857907
Only if you suck my cock

>>12857913
Post pic of cock and i'll post pic of mouth. ok?

>>12857778
>I cried
Jesus, you need TRT therapy

gay thread but i kinda like it

>>12857922
>You're not allowed to sincerely enjoy and love anything, ever

>>12857157
'finding' a gf is /biz/ or /fit/ not /lit/

>>12857918
You want me to get banned, that's unfair you bastard.

>>12857825

>>12857164
t. brainlet who doesn't understand finnegan's wake

>>12857933
>not /r9k/

>>12857944
t. brainlet who thinks he understand finnegans wake

>>12857944
>finnegan's wake

>>12857934
it'd do you good

>>12857936
this

>>12857944
You can't even get the title right. It's "Finnegans Wake"

>>12857966
Finna get Woke

>>12857972

>>12857956
>>12857966
no it's not it's finnegan's wake

>>12857972
kek

>>12857978

>>12857972
based

>>12857334
That is amazing, I need to read it.

>>12857334
>>12857996
samefag

>>12857131
little surprised this got no replies, guess it dead

>>12857108
based autist

>>12857061
i read it. it wasnt very good

>>12857754
How lmao

>>12858400
Basically, Woolf read the top names. Your Dickenses, your Tolstoys, your Brontes, your Turgenevs. She said, "That's great. Buts lets move it up a notch." She practiced writing for ages, gave it a good stab, and took it to the next level.

>>12858434
What is the next level from list related

>>12858439
The next level from your Dickenses, your Tolstoys, your Brontes, your Turgenevs?

>>12858451
yah

>>12858467
A good question...

>>12858135
It's been done one hun dred times now. What did you expect. An exceptionally clever reference that will forever remain one of /lit/'s great masterpieces of humour, with that said.

>>12858467
I don't have a good answer.
It's the level of your Kafkas, your Joyces, your Prousts and your Woolfs.
to guess it's the level where the act of producing writing is brought to the fore in some respect - stylistically, formally, conceptually - possibly to as a means to escape from conventions that had become suffocating, somehow or other.

>>12857131
AMAZING BASE

>>12858505
Then why make the claim? That sounds like a bunch of historically contingent criteria that easily could be applied to Tolstoy in relation to, say, Jane Austen.

>>12857061
He wasn't trolling anyone. It's very predictable in the development of his literature. Yeah it's very abstract. To the point where there barely even discernible plot lines or character arcs. I haven't read the entire thing but I have read along with audiobook for passages. I think he thought he was accomplishing the perfect form of artistic prose. The writing style is meticulously structured to resemble psychosis-induced disorganized thoughts.

>>12858675
You're 100% right everyone you applied to literally just conflated the regular development of fiction writing over time with taking literature to 'higher levels'. Yeah bro you could say the same thing about generations of xbox... lol

>>12857131
Gets me every time

>>12857061
I tried reading this and could not understand anything. I got bored, put the book away, and went back to programming.
138 IQ btw

>>12858675
Why make the claim? Because there appears to be something qualitatively different between the classic novels of the mid-C19th and the high modernist stuff that was produced around WW1. Art changes over time and it is interesting to try to make sense of the hows and whys of it.
>historically contingent criteria
What are you saying here?

>>12858753
>generations of xbox.
what about the difference between an xbox and NES?

>>12858848
Fuck off.

>>12857131
This.
But also this:
https://youtu.be/9__cwvLhbW0
Neodecadence arrives from postIreland.

>>12857334
That excerpt reads so much like Faulkner

>>12858848
based

This is the Joyce general thread right? What's "The Encounter" from Dubliners even about? Is the dude a pedo or something?

>>12857108
most /lit/ comment ever lol shut up finnegans wake is unreadable

>>12857334
yikes

>>12857141
Can you expand on what you mean by "metaphysical black box"? I'm not really familiar with Kant but I'm interested.

You can feel justifiably annoyed by the experiment, precisely because the experiment seems useless or meaningless to you. More to the point because the experience is just another example of haute couture masturbation, which it is and has been since it was published. But it's been hated and loved, praised and debased, in the same way this thread's going on about for decades. If it's a troll, then he wins on the grounds of that experiment. If it isn't a troll, he wins on the grounds of another kind of experiment. You can respect that or not.
Anyway, it doesn't matter if you think the experiment fails. Who cares if you don't like it? Frankly what's annoying about Finnegans Wake, if anything, is what is annoying about the novel form in general. The novel is easily the worst medium for writing, and as a medium it almost never succeeds. At least Joyce made a go of it in the way he did, even if that go more or less just points to the limitations of the medium. If he tried to "get outside of language," then he picked the worst medium to do it. If he tried to change the medium, then all the following commentary proves he's done nothing of the sort. If he tried to give something about death, any given commentary on it will show that he said it rather than showed it.
Finnegans Wake is a pretty good novel, which is high praise for such a shit medium.

>>12860071
Possibly, but what is important isn't pinning down specifics of whether or not he masturbated or what his motives were, etc. The important thing is just the narrator, who is unsettled by something. He reads his books of adventures and thinks he can go out into the world like that, but then discovers the real, adult world is not the simple and pleasant world of childhood games.

>>12861296
>he picked the worst medium to do it
He picked other mediums first, but for some reason couldn't pull it off.

>>12861296
Oh my goodness shut the fuck up.

>you will never own a copy of Storiella As She Is Syung
Why live?

>>12857136
>people will imply this isn't basically an admission of trolling

>>12858848
Only two more IQ points and you could understand it anon, oh really this is so sad :(

>>12860071
>>12861458
Also important to note is that the last line is a reference to the Bible. "I began to despise him in my heart," or something similar to that. Which is the feeling Michal is overcome with when David returns with the ark of the covenant, after having killed her father Saul. The narrator of The Encounter essentially becomes disillusioned with his childhood friend after have experienced the darker, more adult side of the world. A profound hatred starts to take hold of him as his friend, much like David, appears childlike and uncaring in the eyes of someone who has just been deeply affected by his actions.

>>12857110
Are you Brazilian?

>>12857989
I very much like this image, may you tell me about its source?

>>12857141
good post anon, liked and shared

>>12859155
Yeah but if you can’t say what that something is then you’ve said a whole lot of nothing.