/lit/ - Literature

A holy book

>>12810051
Pretty repetitive and boring. The bible at least has some stories with a plot and some action. The Quran is mostly just God rambling on about how awesome he is and why you should believe in him .

>>12810126
For the most part, but some parts are awesome. Did you read the whole thing?

>>12810126
And also, while you dont need to speak Arabic to understand it, you can't appreciate the lyrical beauty without it. It is a poetical masterpiece of Arabic, that never leaves the native speaker feeling bored

Left me wondering if women are also supposed to get wide-eyed, full-breasted maidens in Paradise or how does that work, never really clarifies.

>>12810413
Wouldn't the women be those maidens?

>>12810471
Maybe, but then are they transformed in appearance? Do I still get to keep my wife(s)? Is paradise for them getting to share a man with some other busty girls? I dunno.

Too fear-based and too repetitive. It empties brains even more than the Bible

>In the name of Allah, the awesome the compassionate
>Don't do X, it's reprehensible
>If you do X great suffering will come
>Here is an example of a guy who did X
>Great suffering came
>So no X
>Truly, Allah is the most awesome and compassionate
Repeat ad infinitum

>>12810371
This is an astoundingly subjective claim

>>12810051
The Jews were clearly living in Muhammad's head rent-free. Every fucking sura it's Jews this, Jews that.

>>12810657
That is an astoundingly based claim

gay

>>12810657
It is clearly not always for the benefit of the Jews though, you fucking tard.

>>12810651
This is a literature board, retard.

I didn't understand shit, maybe it was bad (or actually good) translation, but it had billions of brackets on every page.

>>12810371
>it's a masterpiece in Arabic, trust me!!
This meme needs to die. Numerous literary critics who are native speakers of Arabic have exposed how even its original language it is dull, repetitive and certainly nothing special when it comes to poetry.

>>12810707
But that’s wrong, you fucking retard. Those “critics” are simply biased because they ressent Islam.

‘To be faith-literate is crucial in a globalised world, I believe.

‘I read the Qur’an [Koran] every day. Partly to understand some of the things happening in the world, but mainly just because it is immensely instructive.’

>>12810668
No it is not; but he is showing the extent of his butthurt envy.

>Man i wish i was one of the Chosen people of God
>FUCK IT I WILL BE THE CHOSENEST

>>12810126
Seconded.

One of the anons here mentioned lyrical value; I disagree.

Dunsany's invented myths have lyrical value; Dorothy Sayer's english translation of Dante has lyrical value; the koran could have been translated to retain the lyrical value, if it were so important. The version i read was boring as all hell, ZERO lyrical value, PLUS a hundred times more repetitive than any book in the bible. Even book of Numbers had variations; even compared to book of Psalms the koran is boring.

>>12810852
Nonchristians and atheists can admit the poetic power of Dante and Milton, regardless of their private religious opinion.

These people might
>Ressent
Islam; that does not automatically invalidate their opinion that the koran is unpoetic and unlyrical. These are two separate arguments.

raised muslim, I can say for sure it's written by a Human being who held grudges against people who used it to further his own gains and to shut down his annoying wife

>>12811858
Lol politic doublespeak at its finest.

Lemme translate.

>partly to understand why some things are happening in the world
=Why the fuck are lonewolf muslims crashing cars into pedestrians then jumping out and stabbing the survivors with kitchen knives.

>But mainly just because it is immensely instructive
=I can predict muslim sentiment, use the thematic vocab of their religion, successful agitprop techniques may be coopted to my modus

>>12810491
Generally this.

>Empties brains more than the Bible
Good descriptor.

>>12811858
Logical fallacy detected:
Appeal to authority.

A great person accepting an idea does not make it great, musanon. The idea must stand on its own merits.

>>12810852
How muslim are you anon. Be honest.

If those critics are biased for resenting (sic) islam, (You) are likewise biased for being this much of a fanboy/girl

>>12811858
The Quran is a miraculous book, as it states

>>12810707
Logical fallacy detected:
Appeal to authority.

A great person accepting an idea does not make it great, anon. The idea must stand on its own merits

>>12812701
As indeed the Quran does, infidel

>>12810371
Excuse me??

>Native speakers are never bored

Then why do middle eastern muslim religious schools have memorizing classes? If it was very lyrical, you dont need classes to remember; i can remember pop lyrics from a decade back. I can remember the entire score of Phantom of the Opera.

And the way they memorize just about proves cement-solid how boring the text is: the kids rock themselves backwards forwards the whole time just to not nod off.

>>12812707
Sure it does. A pedoprophet is leagues and away better than a pedopriest.

>>12812707
No it doesn't, dunecoon.

>>12812724
>hurrr durrrr god is dum
How original. Isn’t there a site you should be heading back to now...

One that begins with R?

>>12812701
Lol you call this guy great.

Is your hobby huffing ceramic enamel?

>>12810707
You're not trusting yourself - you are assuming what a few people might have said that reaffirms your own beliefs must be true. Confirmation bias. The Quran is lyrical, there is a moving melody to it. There is something profoundly moving about it when it is recited

>>12812733
Ooh yes please, attack my character instead of addressing my objection; it makes me so horny.

It is extremely repetitive. There are some pretty funny moments like in Surah 33:53 which tells you to get the fuck out of Muhammad's house after dinner.

Why isn't there any proof priests are PEDOS? You never hear any kids complain about them nor have I been molested by one nor have I ever met a priest, at all. Yes, I talk to them after congregation but I have NEVER gotten any names. They're nameless entities, NPCs practically.
people who've said they've been raped by priests are psyops attempting to create more atheists or possibly sway Christians from their religion to something like Judaism. I'm not Christian but I don't trust them.

>>12812747
What objection? Is name calling a valid form of argument these days? At least read some Richard Dawkins, infidel

>>12812724
>>12812747
Ooh yes please, attack Mohammad's character instead of addressing the book; it makes me so horny.

>>12812743
And yet it is not translated into lyrical english for the world to enjoy?

Come on. Homeric greek, Dantean italian could make the leap into lyrical english, but somehow Quranic Arabic gets left out?

Give me a lyrical english trans of your choice anon; if you can find one.

>>12812760

Reread the thread; repetition =\= lyrical. That is the criticism.

Not saying whether the koran is spiritually legit; saying it is poetically not.

>>12812760
>Suggest i go back to /r/
>Implying i am r/etard
I call this an attack on character while sidesteppind the argument. What do (You) call it?

>>12812774
You think it's incredulous that people care more about preserving the meaning of words at the cost of poetry when translating scripture than when translating Schöne Literatur?

>>12812784
The Koran is the word of God. Perhaps he wanted to stress his message

>>12812761
>Repeat my post
>But in a funny voice

I'm loose from years of faggotry, so you'll have to try harder to make me feel it.

>>12812802
>>But in a funny voice

>>12810051
I've read about 100 pages but mean to return to it one day. Seems no different from the Bible or the Torah. Feels like something that would be in Judges.

>>12812799
Ah, then the text is to be read *not* as a poem, but as an infallable utterance of God.

I actually have no problem with this, i honestly don't. But the insistance of islamic apologists that it is poetic? That's a problem, esp. after me reading arabian nights and a sufi anthology of poems. I find poetry in those, even after translation; i do not find poetry in the translation of the koran i read. This is my experience; you cannot make me deny it.

>>12812812
I came.

>>12812832
>then the text is to be read *not* as a poem, but as an infallable utterance of God.
wow you're bad at conclusions

>>12812843
If you don’t think it’s from God, I don’t think you’ve read the book

>>12812799
There are two Penguin translations of Dante; one is Sayer's, which emphasizes the poetic; the other is a more literally accurate one(a man did that one, cant remember his name).

I do not find it inconcievable that the literalist approach will be taken for the Koran; that is valid for its own purpose.

My purpose, and that of this thread, is the lyric poetic quality, for which the literalist approach is inferior.

>>12812850
Bit of a non sequitur.

>>12812843
If the translator chose to sacrifice poetry for accuracy, then it should not be taken as a poem but as an account.

>>12812852
No the purpose of this thread is to discuss the Quran.

If you had other motives in mind, you should have said so in the OP

>>12810371
>My girlfriend lives in Canada

>>12812850
Assuredly assuredly, i have indeed read the book; with open eyes and clear heart did i read it; with open hope did i behold all it would yield.

It was insufficient to convict me either to your god, nor of him.

>>12812865
Not OP.

I stand corrected.

My mistake.

>>12810051
The Haddith is where the good stuff is.
Who would have thought the 8 year old child-bride of the prophet had such good tales about him getting jizz on his prayer robes.

>>12812850
I got interested after Stephen Fry mentioned that its "images were moving" in V for Vendetta.

Vastly underwhelmed.

>>12812887
Mus-anons, address pls.

Is this a mistrans or smth? Is there an alt reading?

>>12812852
You were arguing that a lack of poetic (for lack of need for a better term) translation would imply something.
>>12812860
On a pedantic note: If a translator of Schöne Literatur realizes that he had missed the word 'not' in the original and mistranslated something into the exact opposite, and corrects it even though any way of inserting the negation has slightly worse rythm, is it then an account? More generally: And?

>>12812904
The Hadiths are lesser than the Quran because they are not the direct word of God.

There’s your answer

>>12812914
So Aisha, Mughirah, Abu Ma'shar, and Wasil are lying about the Prophet PBUH?

>>12812753
Hey doofus, kekkek, if youre not christian you have absolutely no reason to trust men who wear both big hats and skirts.

>>12812905
I am contending with the assertion that the Koran is lyrical. i have looked for myself and have yet to agree. I have requested for a more lyrical or poetically minded translation, if there is one yoi are aware of, into english; i have yet to be directed.

I do not accept that only the original archaic arabic is to be allowed, because other ancient works have managed the leap into english without too much loss of the lyric sense, rhyming terzains in good metricfoot as per Sayer's Dante.

Now kindly, how about this: pick a few passages of your choice and demonstrate the lyric quality.
Just transliterate with a fitting meter, use spacing and dashes to show cadence.

Three or four consecutive lines will do.

>>12812988
Do you have me mistaken for someone else?

>>12812914
>direct word of god
Wasn't the book compiled at the order of Bukhari, by Zayd ibn Thabit and his team of scribes, 20 years after Mohammed's death?

"I started locating Quranic material and collecting it form parchments, scapula, leaf-stalks of date palms and from memories of men (who knew it by heart)."
- Sahih Bukhari, Book 60, Number 201

A rather indirect way of writing down the perfect direct word of god, don't you think? Maybe prone to some mistakes and misattributions?

>>12812905
>Schöne Liture
I must defer to your expertise as i have not read this.

But as to your argument: did the translator set out to make a literally accurate translation, or a poeticly accurate one?

This is important because it influences the way the whole work is represented. Even if as much as 20% of a work is inaccurately translated, the lyrical/accounting sense will still be preserved for a dominant 80%.

If there is a mistranslation of a single word that destroys the whole accounting sense but saves the poetic sense, i suppose it must be called poetically inaccurate. If viceversa, then accurately unpoetic, at least for the line in question.

>>12813003
Maybe. In case i have, i apologize.

>>12813037
>>Schöne Liture
>I must defer to your expertise as i have not read this.

>>12813029
...and before you know it, someone's head was on a stick and everybody was shouting.

>>12813049
Oh please. Selfcongratulation is unbecoming.

>>12812914
That's not an answer, though. Is the statement true, or not? Are the Hadiths, as a whole, reliable for Islam?

You can meme and tip your fedora all you like, but the quran would actually create a strong and fucntional society if it was followed.

>>12813095
Marxists, Christians/Jews, Buddhists, Crowleyans, /X/enu, and various others are all making the exact same claim about their ingroup scriptures, with around the same level of measurable results.

>>12813095
Don't worry, certain parts of Europe will be following it soon enough. And then we'll see whether you continue to refer to people not in favor of Islam as "fedora tippers", or if you better understand where they were coming from.

>>12813049
Also, i came again.

Do stop or i might go into a coma.

>>12813095
The entire Muslim world is intellectually crippled because they follow the Koran.

>>12813095
>accuses us of memeing
>says we are the fedora meme
Hypocrite.

>The quran would actually create a strong and fucntional (sic) society
I have my doubts.

>>12810852
>>12811858
>>12812760

These are neither strong nor functional posts.

>>12813095
>If it was followed
Hmm

>If Jews, Christians, capitalists, communists, and all infidels just lay down and let it win.
ftfy

I've read about half of it for a religion class I took in Uni. I agree with >>12810491
's take on it.

Regarding the argument about it being lyrical or not, seeing as how I read it in English I can't ultimately speak to the prose quality of the original, but for the same class I read the whole of the Conference of the Birds and found that to be significantly more poetic than the Qu'ran.

If the Qu'ran is as lyrical and poetic as has been stated in this thread, then I question why it isn't translated as such or why it's not preserved at least in part in the translation. I also think that recitation can go a long way towards something seeming more poetic. You can repeat something, but if you repeat something in a sing-song voice and play with the stressors and whatnot then obviously it'll be a bit more interesting. I wonder if that's what the muslimanon(s) were getting at when they said the original is leagues better, or whatever they said. I don't know any arabic at all so excuse my obvious ignorance.

tl;dr I think it might be more entertaining to read the Conference of the Birds, but the Qu'ran is interesting too in the same way the Bible, the Upanishads, or Buddhist Sutras would be interesting (though truth be told I enjoyed reading the Upanishads probably the most out of all of those texts)

>>12813082
That quote is from the fourth book (Sunan Abu Dawood) of the Kutub al-Sittah. The six most respected non-quran texts of Sunni Islam (90% of the world's Muslims). As far as they are concerned it's basically gospel.

The Shia (roughtly the other 10%) have a different relation to the Haddith. They look at each Haddith individually and judge its credibility. They respect quotes from certain sources more than others and they ignore quotes that contradict the Quran (which supersedes everything else).

>>12813183
Reminds me a lot of the selectivity Christians apply regarding the Bible

>>12813180
>Qu'ran

sorry, I meant Qur'an don't bully

>>12810051
It's very interesting to say at least. Althought it loses most of its charm when translated, and can get REALY boring at times, I quite enjoyed it. I am looking foward to read the hadiths too, and more os islamic literature in general, paritculary, topics like fiqh, literature in general, philosophy, etc.
But I will say that in terms of writting, I find the bible more enjoyable. The New Testament, actualy, the Old Testament is hot garbage for the most part.

>>12813003
You should actually answer that question, anon.

If i have mistaken, only (You) can tell.

>>12813183
FInally an informed and level headed answer.

Thank you anon.

>>12813095
I thought Muslims already follow it to the word? Where are those strong functional societies you speak of?

>>12812631
Non-mus here.

>Muhd wrote Quran as a qope for his own fail
How do you figure this?

>>12813258
Non mus in a mus geolocation reporting.

Nah mate. Majority round here are lowkey sincere. Wear the garb, go for prayers, da woiks. But common law rules, not shariah. Thay aint following -alle- the rules to a T.

>>12813128
The muslim world doesn't follow the Quran.

>>12813258
That's ISIS, would you believe.

Guess the strong and fycnctoinal society will have to wait until they beat the stronger and even more functional Great Sateen.

>>12813258
Lots of nominal muzzies where i live bruv.

Highest incidence of drug use, partylife and broken marriages.

>>12813296
Why do you believe that?

The Quran is beautiful :3

>>12813314
A lot of Muslims are complete degenerates simply because their cult is so repressive in every way possible, looking to dominate every aspect of life.

>>12810707
>Numerous literary critics who are native speakers of Arabic have exposed how even its original language it is dull, repetitive and certainly nothing special when it comes to poetry.
Meanwhile
>the poetic value of this one book made a hundred tribes of fireworshippers and idolators unite in the faith that this speech could not possibly come from a human
>the nonbelieving early generations claimed the words of its recitation were literally a magic spell, and told others to run from it
>fourteen hundred years later, the linguists are still in agreement that it is the greatest work of Arabic literature of all time

I think a lot of people itt don't understand how much the middle east has been and is influenced by western imperialism. There's no independent arab countries

>>12813180
Probably because arabic is a holy language like latin, practicioners are expected to learn it at least a little. English translations aren't viewed as especially important.

You can check out quran recitations to hear (some of) the lyrical value.

>>12813339
>looking to dominate every aspect of life
That's what some people want though. It's the major selling point for converts. Just turn off your brain and follow manual.

>>12813200
>The New Testament, actualy, the Old Testament is hot garbage for the most part.
Based. As usualy hellenised jews are better than a bunch of angry hebrew writers.

>>12813358
>Just turn off your brain and follow manual.
That's literally calvinism.

>>12813029
>Wasn't the book compiled at the order of Bukhari
Literally stopped reading there. We really have a lot of 'ulamaa in this thread here

>>12810051
I like flipping it open and reading a random verse, but I can't bear reading some of the law-related chapters straight through. but I don't have to, I can just read the others.
it translates terribly, though. if you like formal poetry, then there's its value. it's not focused on image or coherence at all, it's all about verse form.
>>12812904
I'm not muslim, but I know a little about Islam from studying Persian literature
the hadith are oral traditions compiled centuries after the lifetime of Muhammad. if a hadith is 'sahih' that basically means 'well we can't find a reason to disqualify it'. usually that means the 'chain of transmission' or isnad isn't too faulty, aka the 'I heard from him who heard from her' doesn't include anyone known to lie. there's several collections of varying canonicity and the one that picture pulls from is one of the weaker ones.
>>12813029
to be clear, Bukhari is a scholar who lived several centuries later. the one who ordered Zayd's compiling of the modern Qur'anic text was 'Uthman. additionally, strictly speaking theologically, the Qur'an is the word of God as transmitted to Muhammad by the angel Gabriel. anyone who says it's direct is skipping some steps.
there are some missing surahs, according to a few hadiths, because humans are fallible, and that's what prompted the standardization.

>>12813394
>>12813401
Meant Abu Bakr, the quote is from Sahih Bukhari. Honest mix-up.

>>12813358
And that's exactly what turns people into depraved degenerates. Humans aren't supposed to "follow manual" by turning off their brains. They can try but eventually they all snap.

Mislim ISIS tier fanatics are a textbook example of sexually repressed males, they're so sexually and emotionally stunted because of their retarded beliefs being shoved down their throats and because most women are already taken due to polygamy and married making taking 4 women at once.

I can't help but feel pure pity for people like them, it's like they never had a chance to grow into decent human beings.

>>12813418
>married making
*married men, sorry auto correct

>>12813200
>The New Testament, actualy, the Old Testament is hot garbage for the most part.
How can someone be so wrong?

>>12813416
no trouble, humans are fallible
>>12813418
4 wives is allowed in Islam but that doesn't make it common or the norm. creating a structural problem of society to explain a moral problem is pretty far-fetched

>>12813440
Not only it's allowed but it's also highly encouraged by those who hold Islamic tradition in high regard.

Islam is in its core a fucked up, destructive ideology, there's no helping it, you simply cannot change for better it without discarding some of its key elements. Claiming that people who follow Quran's teaching to the word (like salafists) somehow create functional societies is really absurd, even dangerous to say, it's something only a complete ignoramus would propose, or a dangerous fanatic.

>>12813516
Oh well, nothing will be as fucked up and dysgenic as western atheism and welfare states.

>>12813432
>How can someone be so wrong?
It is. Such boring shit around the cool sutff. Its long and boring for the most part.

>>12813557
"western atheism and welfare states" is a natural conclusion of western political and ideological evolution in the past 200 years. It has been responsible for the unprecedented improvement of quality of life in history, massive technological innovation, it allowed for plurality of ideas to flourish and be developed simultaneously, improving education and overall knowledge of the world and beyond. I don't know to what mind would that look as fucked up.

>>12813401
What's your opinion on the jizz pants? >>12812887

I read the Quran several times In Arabic and English. The compilation of the Quran is not in chronological order so it seems like a jumbled mess. The language is "poetic" in a non-unique way and uses a simple meter "rhyming" which is trivial in Arabic. The repetitiveness of this book, when read aloud ("recited") in an almost singing voice is supposed to put you in a trance-like state and focus only on the melody of the recital, much like a religious hymn. This is why most Muslims claim the Quran is beautifully written because it is "calming" to hear. You can simply turn your mind off and meditate.

>>12813963
Forgot to mention. Arabic is my native tongue... I'll ramble some more about religion. I have a theory, that the further away from the cultural & geographical origins of a certain religion. The more likely you are to be fooled by it. (Torque) = (Force) x (Perpendicular Distance). If you can speak Arabic, it becomes very easy to unfuck yourself from Islam... IF you care to follow the evidence. The majority of Muslims, unfortunately, cannot speak Arabic and it will always be a great mystery to them... this is a high barrier-to-entry that they cannot overcome.

>>12812904

Am
>>12813401
Thank you for your answer. Sincerely appreciated.

>>12812887
Look at the above answer. Always mention it when bringing up semenonrobes.gif.
You misrepresenting fuckhead.

>>12813963
How come it's not put together chronologically?

>>12813401
>>12814002
>Sunan Abu Dawood
>weak canonicity
That's a lie. It is a respected text. Only three other non-quran texts have more respect.

>You misrepresenting fuckhead.
Where is the misrepresentation?

>>12813991
Arab anon, very much appreciated. NOW i get what the musanons meant by "lyrical".

Hey:
>>12810371
>>12812743
If just lilting and repetitive droning is what you call "lyrical", the buddhists have been doing it several centuries BCE; it is not unique to the Koran. And also, it is a manner of the performance, not the quality of the text. You're as bad as the semenonrobes guy; misrepresenting things just to score internetpoints and confusing bystanders. Shame on you and fuck you, you dishonest shits.

>>12814027
Misrepresentation is that the semen hadith has the same weight as all others; the answering anon said that there is a grade between "iffy" and "legit".

What you did was like presenting the christian apocrypha and not telling me that Gospel of Judas has lower credibility than Book of Enoch.

>>12813991
Oh dude. You really got it. Looka dis.

>>12814079
>between "iffy" and "legit".
That is his opinion. Which he backed up with nothing.

I gave the quote, with source and witnesses. The witnesses make it one of the strongest haddith in the whole book. If you don't know those names you should look them up.

>>12813418
>Women are all taken up by 4wives meme
>Suicide jihadists are basically ER deathcels
Not accurate. Lots of suiciders are in teens to mid twenties, the soldiering age. They are brainlets volunteering to fight Great Satan Washington, not incels.

IsIS tier are not sexdeprived incels; the african Boko Haram are.

>>12814163
Ok, i looked, firststop wiki.

Abu says:
"I have disclosed wherever there was too much weakness in regard to any tradition in my collection. But if I happen to leave a Hadith without any comment, it should be considered as sound, albeit (((some))) of them are (((more authentic))) than others"

The grading exists for the compiler, even if in an informal, indefinite fashion.

>>12814203
So, you agree it is authentic?

>>12814050
Add:

If performance imbues a text with lyric quality, i can get Eminem to rap an Enid Blyton text, and on that basis say that Blyton is "mad gangsta".

>>12814229
Authentic to a degree, yes, like the christian apocrypha. Not to the same degree, and not to the degree of the koran main text.

>>12810126
كَلَّا ۖ إِنَّا خَلَقْنَاهُم مِّمَّا يَعْلَمُونَ

>>12814244
Add: authentic as in it was not made up by a third party, not as in it IS the actual Word of God.

Any knowledgeable anons,
is it true that Islamic culture does not consider truth to be a legal defense against libel/slander?
(In contrast with English common law?)

>>12812904
No, it's just that a lot of the hadiths have to do with ritual purity. In order to come to prayer clean, you need to wash up in a specific way, and there are a lot of bodily functions, including using the bathroom, being on your period, or having seminal discharge from a wet dream, that make you unclean.

The point of the hadith is to show that if you have an accidental seminal discharge that stains a piece of clothing, it's OK to attend prayer if you scrape it off.

Aisha is just the mouthpiece for this advice on ritual purity – it's put into her mouth since she's an authority close to the prophet who took care of a lot of his personal matters. She probably never actually did or said anything of the sort.

>>12814229
I agree the hadiths are as authentic as Abu could make them.

He did his best, admits there are unsatisfactory holes that he can't resolve conclusively, leaves the burden of full resolution to future scholars and new proofs, or divine abrogation.

A healthy, sane approach.

>>12814267
Honestly, thank you for this.

I've collected a few lightbulbs from you lot.

The same stunt won't work quite this well next time.

>>12814279
What did you collect exactly? Where is the deceit?

>>12814264
“Do you know what slander is? It is to mention of your brother that which he would dislike.” Someone asked, “What if he is as I say?” And he replied, “If he is as you say, you have slandered him, and if not, you have calumniated him.”

>>12814264
>>12814295
"Do you know what backbiting is?" His companions, may Allah be pleased with them, replied: "Allah and His Messenger know best." He sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allah exalt his mention ) then said: "It is to say something about your brother that he would dislike." Someone asked: "But what if what is said is true?" The Messenger of Allah sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam ( may Allah exalt his mention ) replied: "If what you say about him is true, then you have backbitten him, but if it is not true then you have slandered him." [Muslim]

>>12814100
Is this real? Gives me a good chuckle.

>>12814276
>admits there are unsatisfactory holes that he can't resolve conclusively
He does so in haddith where there are holes. Which is not the case with the one in question.

>>12814285
Not deceit; misrepresentation. This is not deceit, it just helps me arrive at the wrong (but desired by positor) conclusions all on my own.

Much as i am a judgmental asshole, i prefer to accuse accurately.

Lightbulbs collected:
>lyric quality of core text is not within the text itself, but in the performance
>Hadiths are always secondary to core text; where they appear to disagree, prefer koran deluxe
>Grades of authenticity exist between hadiths
>Lots of hadiths address the finer points of ritual cleanliness

>>12814322
I dunno. It came up in /lit/ humor. Big if true.

>>12814322
I dunno. It came up in /lit/ humor. Big if true. The incorporation of the torque formula lends it a STEM legitimacy.

>>12814340
What wrong conclusions did you arrive at initially?

>>12810413
They get a hunky "purified" man, but only one. Men get "multiple" women.
Seems like a bum deal for the girls

>>12814334
Granted.

Nevertheless, his disclaimer allows for there to be enough doubt for me not to accept your take as presented, vis, islam approves degenerate perversion.

And Dawood's allowance of it into his collection without further comment, since he is muslim, indicates that he has by and large resolved any apparent conflicts the hadiths have with the main text. Like another anon explained, it might be covering the finer points of ritual cleanliness.

>>12810051
some good morals and values although the parts about deceiving the non believers gets me

>>12814365
>Hadith is where all the se/hc/s is
>8yo wipes semen off PBH's prayer robes
>He prays in semen robes all the time

The point is not that he got an 8yo to wipe his semen robes, or that he likes praying in his own crusts.

The point is, just wiping off is sufficient ritual cleanliness to go to prayer.

I am resistant to readings that draw from modern sensibilities to pass moral judgments.

>>12814402
"Degenerate perversion" is subjective.
Would you consider consummating marriage with a girl not older than 10 to be degenerate perversion?

The point of the haddith is certainly not to point out degenerate perversion in the live of the prophet. The point was probably to point out that it is acceptable to have semen stained robes during prayer, since the prophet did it too. That does not change its implications. The fact that the scholars don't consider this wrong is alarming by itself.

>>12813963
>You can simply turn your mind off
I actually do the opposite. I connect emotionally and mentally.

>>12814264
This + both replies are me. Is my interpretation of this wrong?

>>12814611
Is this true?

>>12814633
>Would you consider childsex with a 10yo a perversion
I dont see any major religious text declaring it haram outright. Greeks were famous for boiseks to the level of meme. I can't conclusively call it degenerate;; would call it a perversion IF saying otherwise gets me put on a watchlist.

>Alarming implications
I hear you, but these are not unique to islam.

/K/hristian gundolators like to use Christ's "sell your clothes and buy a sword" passage, and "i come not to bring peace but SORD" and "he who is not with me" to approve holy violence.

Buddhist karma concept makes all the bad things that happen to you 100% your fault, per the Dharmapada; metaphysical victim blaming, leaves little room for mercy, and little merit in showing it, since the sufferer deserves that too.

Hinduism has Kali as the emanation of parvati, consort of Shiva, the most popular one. Cleanliness is not next to godliness; bloodthirstiness is.

I can carry on, but you get the picture. Horrifying implications exist for most of these, but you have to make an effort to go offroad in the first place to reach them.

Abdullah, Muhammad ibn. One would like to have filmed his picnics.
The Quran. A cruel and crude old book.

>>12810491
Too accurate

>>12810371
Cringe

>>12814717
>Is this true?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiya

You are allowed to lie to non-believers in the face of persecution. How that is interpreted varies quite a bit. What exactly you consider persecution for instance.

Apologists for Islam often get accused of abusing the rule to lie and omit truths about the religion when confronted with criticism.

>>12812589
This isn't a fair point anon. Italian and English are far more similar than Arabic and English. The lyrics could be preserved, but the meaning could be completely butchered.

>>12810051
The amount of unsubstatiated "believe this shit because I say so" drives me up a wall. I hate holy books.

>>12814611
Read apologists who justify it as a war tactic.

King David pretended to be mad to not get killed; deceiving unbelievers for advantage in jihad is self-congruent, though highly disagreeable to unbelievers.

US troop accounts tell of jihadists who claim to be injured and surrendering, then opening full auto on the doorway when you come in to get them.

>>12814781
Naw they aint, they just use the same letters.

English is german rooted, italian is latin root.

>>12814781
There's such a thing as transliteration and from there, a translation that retains (some of) the original lyric quality.

Example: the english word "humor" is rendered in chinese as YouMo, 幽默, the individual characters meaning "quiet/secret tacity", as in, an understated unspoken quality. This is very good transliteration. If chinese can transliterate english at this level, english can surely do something of the same to arabic.

If precise nuances are lost to maintain the lyric, that is quite okay: this is what concordances, glosseries and footnotes are for. I got plenty of these for Chaucer and GawainVGreenKnight; no excuse for it not happening for koran.

>>12814781
>Far more similar
No they are not. Just one example, italian typically has Noun then Adjective; english is reverse. Also, italian is inflected, á è and so on; english isnt except when it coopts words from elsewhere.

Italian might have more in common with arabic than with english.

>>12814971
>á è and so on
That's not what inflection is

>>12814978
Excuse me; accents.

>>12814825
and both are indo-european, while arabic is semitic. by structure, vocabulary, and history, english and italian are far more similar than either is to arabic

>>12814971
The fact remains that Italian is closer to English than Arabic is

>>12812589
>the koran could have been translated to retain the lyrical value, if it were so important

>book has been the subject of chantings for 1400 years and the foundation of a civilization that encompasses one third of the world
>kevin shitposts about its absence of lyrical value in the litterature section of a vietnamese bamboo carvings website
never change

>>12812904
No it's not a mistranslation.
This is jurisprudence. Look above, it's in the chapter called "Book of Purification".
Semen is considered "impure", you're supposed to wash yourself to be "clean" for prayer. This hadith means that you can pray in a cloth that is stained with semen, it does not invalidate your prayer.

I don't see anything wrong here.

>>12813082
Most of it is solid, a lot of it is bullshit. Even in the so-called "sahih" (truthful) books. The most reliable is supposed to be Sahih al-Bukhari, but even this one is filled with bullshit. Some hadiths are amputated and lose their meaning, some are just blatant lies.
It's a field of study, so you have to take the problematic hadiths case by case.

>>12813318
Because it's fucking true buddy. I come from it. Most of the fundamental laws of the Quran are not followed. Especially nowadays.

>>12813339
>looking to dominate every aspect of life.
It really doesn't, but sure whatever.

>>12814767
>What exactly you consider persecution for instance.
Let's ask that Wikipedia link you just gave:
>Safeguarding of a Muslim’s life is a mandatory obligation that should be observed; and that lying is permissible when the shedding of a Muslim’s blood is at stake.
>The Prophet (S) saw `Ammar Ibn Yasir (ra) crying, so he (S) wiped off his (ra) tears, and said: "The nonbelievers arrested you and immersed you in water until you said such and such (i.e., bad-mouthing the Prophet (S) and praising the pagan gods to escape persecution); if they come back, then say it again."
>It is acceptable (for a Muslim) to eat the meat of a dead animal at a time of great hunger (starvation to the extent that the stomach is devoid of all food); and to loosen a bite of food (for fear of choking to death) by alcohol; and to utter words of unbelief; and if one is living in an environment where evil and corruption are the pervasive norm, and permissible things (Halal) are the exception and a rarity, then one can utilize whatever is available to fulfill his needs.

>shedding of a Muslim's blood
>arrest and waterboarding
>great hunger
>choking to death

Sounds pretty fucking clear to me that we're talking about cases where the Muslim's life is at stake.

>>12815132
You're supposed to emulate the prophet and there is a haddith for every possible little minute part of life. The ideology is designed to facilitate a theocratic caliphate and it includes rules for every part of life. In a true islamic state Islam follows you from dawn till dusk.

>>12815165
>You're supposed to emulate the prophet
Where does it ever say that?

>In a true islamic state Islam follows you from dawn till dusk.
So half the population is supposed to be working as secret agents spying the other half making sure that you wipe your ass according to the hadiths with an odd number of stones? Sure you can think that as your definition of an "ideal Islamic state" as a way to opt out of it, but that doesn't make it an undisputable truth, I'm sorry.

>>12815054
Oh fuck you.

If i got soundly drubbed you would call me a fool for being drubbed; if i can maintain my position you pffft it by saying this is a meme board. Dishonest cretin.


The mus-anons were the first to bring up lyrical value of the koran; i deny it, and here you are acting like i'm the one started it.

I have already stated i do not deny the spiritual value in a prv post; you might have missed that while speed reading a /lit/ thread.

>>12815115
Point was already made; but thank you heartily. I appreciate this.

>>12815180
>Where does it ever say that?
You are supposed to live according to the quran (the word/law of god) and the hadith (descriptions of the way of life, tacit approval/disaproval of actions and opinions of the prophet Muhammed). If you do this then you will inevitably emulate the prophet. This is the most basic idea of being a Muslim.

>some dystopian strawman
I did not say you are forced to do it, you're supposed to do it on your own. At least outside of fundamentalist states. It's the virtuous path. If you are a true believer then this is what you will want to do.

>>12815011
Closer how. I have made my case; present yours please.

>>12814251
Why's it not working?

>>12815279
Damn, my dumbass forgot the pic

>>12815148
You should look up: "Kithman" and "Tawriya"

>>12815001
>Structure
Wrong, and i just demonstrated with an example. English is adj followed by noun, italian is the reverse.

>Vocab
English is german rooted, italian is latin rooted; they dont share words unless it has been coopted, inwhich case they are also similar to arabic: algebra, alchemy, elixir are all coopted arabic words.

>>12813049
>Attack the easily remedied ignorance
>Ignore the thrust of the argument entirely

(You) follow a winning tradition.

>>12815409
Add:
>history

Now you're just reaching.

>>12815409
(You) know what else English coopted from Arabic?

>>12812914
The Qur'an doesn't tell you how to pray. That comes from the hadith.

>>12815474
Fuck you /jerry/.


Niggers.

>>12810051
knock off bible for arabs

>>12815261
Not anon and not mus, but good, courteous answer.

>>12814786
You do realize all books do this right?

Even if they offer sauce and proof, it is "sauce and proof because i say so."

>>12814740
Ah yes, when cornered about something questionable, don't address it and resort to whataboutism.

>>12815887
What answer were you expecting?

I was asked if i found childsex inherently objectionable. I have no frame of reference outside of popular culture and contemporary law, so i resorted to what i know about religious/myth texts, and i dont remember reading paedophilia being condemned anywhere. Correct me if you can think of anything yourself.

So i answer i find nothing wrong with it, and showed what and how i thought.

There's explicit textual taboos against incest and bestiality, for example, in Deuterononomy and the Greeks, but not against sex with a prepubescent.

What is wrong with my answer?

>>12815887
I might venture a guess why you dont like it.

You expected me to say i dont support CP, in which case you will then say i needs must revile islam for implicitly supporting CP.

Is this so?

>>12815887
You were objecting to islam on the basis of
>Implications

I demonstrated that
>Implications
Existed everywhere, for every mythology. Islam isnt especially corrupt in that regard.

If i must revile islam on the basis of
>Implication
I have to revile all other mythologies on the same lines; i quite think i will have thrown out all of my library apart from the encyclopedia and textbooks if i did follow your value-judgment to its logical conclusion.

>>12810491
This with vivid depictions of the actual suffering that awaits you if you don't bend over to the big M.

>>12810051
Professor Kafir over in /pol/ gave a very in-depth analysis of the Quran. For those interested, please read over the threads. I've also copied the lessons if you want me to post them here.

>Lesson 1:
Muslimspeak and Taqiyya (much more real and common than infidels think).
(http://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/193089072))
>Lesson 2:
Jihad (much more complex than you'd imagine).
(http://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/193585054))
>Lesson 3:
Muhammad (and why he was quite literally the anti-Christ).
(http://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/194939425))
>Lesson 4:
Quran and Sunnah (and why they're retarded).
(http://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/196163288))
>Lesson 5:
Science (what's that? is it halal to eat?).
(http://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/197349477))
>Lesson 6:
Dhimmis (a peek into your future).
(http://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/198520600))
>Lesson 7:
Pedophilia (and why it's endemic).
(http://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/199793487))
>Lesson 8:
Slavery (the most honored muslim tradition).
>Lesson 9:
Women (and how to clean their litter box).
>Lesson 10:
Honor killings (wife or kid pissing you off? Sharia is the solution).
>Lesson 11:
Faggots (and the best ways to murder them).

>>12816661
And now for the continuation.

>>12816661

>/Pol/lack offers word candy
>I am /lit/, do want
>but he is /pol/, expect ubermasterbait
>Takes word candy


If i'm never heard from again, tell my son i never liked him.

>>12813235
There was no question.

>>12816742
You used a question mark.

Even if rhetorical, it is a question.

Is english your second language or smth?

>>12816661
Mus-anons, this is a figure 11 stationary target.

You are clear to fire.

>>12816749
I thought you meant question of yours/>>12812988's.
>If i have mistaken, only (You) can tell.
false or only vacuously true

>>12816763
Alright.

I take it you think i mistook you for someone else?

>>12816768
Your request does not seem to make sense otherwise.

>>12816661
Good read, thanks anon.

>>12816772
Very well. I ask to be sure.

I will repeat my request.

The contention by yourself seems to be that the koran IS lyrical.

I do not think so, but i am willing to hear you out.

So I invited you to present three to four lines with the appropriate cadence (or any other lyric device) to demonstrate the lyric quality that you claim. This was my request.


Previous to that post, you said
>You were arguing that a lack of poetic (for lack of need for a better term) translation would imply something
That is correct: it would imply the koran is unpoetic. That is all. Dont get triggered: i never even suggested the koran might be untrue, just unpoetic.

>What if translator made a mistake that renders the text more poetic
>And correcting the mistake makes the text unpoetic?
I answered saying, the translator's intention will still determine the poetic (more accurately, lyric, in hindsight) quality of the text.

Assuming 20% mistranslation, which is exceedingly generous, it would still leave 80% translated either with poesy as the main goal or accuracy as the main goal. This is why i asked for 3-4 consecutive lines from you, out of literally hundreds: to demonstrate even with a short passage that should be accurately translated AND lyrical.


>More generally: and?
And failure to do so invites me to discount your claim of koranic lyricism as being unfounded.

>>12816800
>The contention by yourself seems to be that the koran IS lyrical.
It is not.
>That is correct: it would imply the koran is unpoetic.
No it wouldn't.
>I answered saying, the translator's intention will still determine the poetic (more accurately, lyric, in hindsight) quality of the text.
Not of the original text.
>your claim of koranic lyricism
I've made no such claim.

faggot

>>12816566
You only know whether sex with prepubescent children is wrong when you have a moral system or a set of laws imposed on you? You do not find it objectionable on a rational or human level?
When you have to act in a system where it is acceptable to have sex with prepubescent children, then you will think it is acceptable? If all systems declare it to be moral, you will think it is moral?

And you already discussed "degenerate perversion". That only makes sense in the context of a moral system as well. How could you judge that without having your own conclusions. There it didn't seem to bother you.

>>12816804
>No it wouldn't imply the koran is unpoetic.
I can accept this, if in your next quick post you pull out any part of the koran you think is poetic.

>I made no such claim
I refer to the following:
>>12812743
>The Quran is lyrical, there is a moving melody to it.
I can accept that you are not the anon who said this.

If so, that anon has just made a bald claim but leaves the justifying of it to others. Lazy, brainwashed, cowardly, or plain dishonest.

>>12816829
>I refer to the following:
>>>12812743
not me

>>12810051
It's a vile hate screed that calls for the deaths and subjugation of kuffar (non-believers) in no less than 100 verses. It is utterly wretched.

>>12810413
Yes.

>>12816826
What kind of brainlet shit is this? People used to marry kids plenty often.

>>12810051
It was good

>>12816851
Marrying is one thing, consuming the marriage is another.
We know thanks to advances in psychology and medical science that having a sexual relationship with prepubescent children is harming the child.

And whataboutism doesn't clear the charges. Especially given that the actions of Muhammad are considered the basis of moral decisions in Islam today. Not just in a historical context. Today.

>>12816826
I will address all your question marks. Bear with.

>You only feel that childsex is wrong if you have a code of law saying so?
Yes.
>Do you not feel it is wrong on a rational human level?
I can only go with rational level; human level is too vague.
On a rational level, i find 90% of my world objectionable. The concept of needing clothes apart from armor, the concept usury, veil of incorporation, nation state, national government, a whole laundry list.
I do not like these things because they are personally inconvenient for me (and by implication, many other people); this is rational, but not disinterested.

In order for me not to have a personal interest when i declare any one thing anathema, i can only appeal to a (supposedly) superior external code of law.

Otherwise, anyone can say "i don't think [insert deviant behaviour here] is irrational, so it is not wrong to me". I do not want this blankcheque excuse for highfuckery to be accepted, so i must not accept it myself, in order not to be (so much of) a hypocrite.

>If you have a system that approves CP
>If ALL systems approve CP
>You would think it moral?
I would be inclined to think it has a rational basis common to all humanity, yes. As example, i previously referred to incest and bestiality, both of which are super taboo across many systems: Oedipus demonstrates incest taboo, and Minotaur myth demonstrates bestiality taboo (it was a divine punishment to minos that his wife sexed a bull).

>It doesnt bother you when you say
>Degenerate perversion
Correct. The post
>>12812887
Invites me to assume that the objection is to "degenerate perversion", as the poster's value judgement seems to be. It is not my own value judgement, but what i inferred from the post.
If there is an equal and obvious reading of this post that is not a moral value judgement, you will need to supply it for me, as i fail to see it.

>>12816832
Then please excuse me.

The challenge i posed was not intended for you at all.

>>12816860
Consummating.

And yes, that anon is a rape apologist.

>>12816860
>Marriage =\= consummation
Sure. But the practice across cultures is, you consummate immediately after. Name one that has a ten year period before consummatiin like you seem to be expecting PBH to do.

I try not to use the norms and knowledge of my time to pass judgment on someone who lived under different norms, with limited / incorrect knowledge. It seems unfair.

All i can reasonably expect is for them to be self-congruent, non-hypocrites.

>>12816885
>Rape apologist
Incorrect. I would not advocate modern rapists operating under modern understanding and knowledge; i would be lenient on bronze age until medieval people who do the same because of their lack of modern knowledge/understanding.

>>12816895
>examples
http://www.auswhn.org.au/blog/child-marriage/

>Often, one of the children went to live in their father-in-law’s house after the marriage, but this tended to be the youngest child regardless of gender. Once children were in the house, they were treated more as siblings rather than man and wife and were often referred to as ‘sister’ or ‘friend’. Sleeping arrangements were those of siblings – sharing a bed with another child or servant of the same sex – and none were expected to lie with their spouse until they came to the age of consent.

>>12816860
>Inb4 islamic barbarism is still being practiced TODAY
>Under modern understanding
Quite incorrect. As Prof Kaffir said, muslims reject modern liberal understanding, and western science at least insofar as it casts islam in a bad light.

The most i can expect is, if you want to live in a modern western secular society with all the benefits, dont practice your medievalisms here.

IMO, the main issue with people who criticize the Quran/Islam is that they don't apply the same standard of criticism to the Bible/Judaism/Christianity.
How many Christians follow the literal teaching of Christ, like giving up all their possessions? How many Jews fallow the litteral commedments of the Torah, like stoning adulterers?

>>12816917
Did you misunderstand my post? You appear to argue for my point while acting like I was arguing against it.

>>12816924
You think you made a point here, but you didn't. In all branches of mainstream Islam you are supposed to follow the literal teaching. In most branches of mainstream Christianity and Judaism you are not.

There is a different standard of criticism here because the situation is different.

>>12816911
I clicked the link.

Fair enough, so there are societies that expect 10years of non-consummation... In the post enlightenment 1600s england.

PBH was living a literal thousand years before this.

>>12810657
This blew my fucking mind. Where muhammad lived was populated by stone worshippers and jews. That's all there was. No shit it's gonna be about the jews (and stone worshippers, which you didn't mention). There were also a few other religions that the quran mentions (I can't remember, it's been a while) but I'm not mentioned those because of how little they're mentioned.

>>12816926
"Dont practice your medievalisms here" =/= do not practice them anywhere

>>12816924
All religions have become too populated.When you compare people who have religion today (any religion) to people way back when, you begin to notice how both the people and religion is evolving. Speaking as a person who grew up in a religious household, btw (I'm not religious but my parents are).

>>12816944
Add:

They are free to practice it among people and in places that subscribe to those ideas.

I do not say their ideas are wrong, but it is wrong to practice them "here," as it would be to eat pork while drawing a blasphemous cartoon "there"

>>12816939
You did not address this at all:
>And whataboutism doesn't clear the charges. Especially given that the actions of Muhammad are considered the basis of moral decisions in Islam today. Not just in a historical context. Today.

Allah: "Muhammed."
Muhammed: "Er, yes. Who is that?"
Allah: "It's me, Allah."
Muhammed: "Right... How can I help you, God?"
Allah: "Actually, it's me who wants to help you, my child."
Muhammed: "Okeydoke. How, my Lord?"
Allah: "I'm going to impart my vast knowledge and wisdom to you, Muhammed."
Muhammed: "Wow! Cool! Lemme have it, Big A!"

One hour later.

Muhammed: "Is that all, God? It's just I feel that you've left something out."
Allah: "What do you mean, my son?"
Muhammed: "Something that pertains to children, maybe?"
Allah: "Mmm, no. I think we've covered everything. I'm omniscient, you know. I have knowledge of the past, the present, AND the future. I have taught you everything you need to know."
Muhammed: "Yeah, it's just.."
Allah: "EVERYTHING. OMNISCIENT. Now, be off with you."

>>12816944
>>12816955
I don't really care to discuss your relativist ethno nationalism. It doesn't lead anywhere but "anything goes as long as you have your own territory". But thanks for the input.

>>12816956
Okay, so i will attempt it.

>The charges
>Pedoprophet
>Child marriage
>Regular semen wiping
These are only wrong in your/our modern mind. As i have attempted to show, it was not necessarily wrong in the medieval mind, nor is pedophilia a longstanding universal taboo.

Of course by our modern standards PBH would get 10-15 years; at one point in english and japanese history, sumptuary laws made it punishable if a peasant wore a noble hat, even if he bought it with good money. At the time, the sumptuary law was "modern"; that does not mean it was reasonable or fair. So also, i might allow, might be our modern laws about "statutory rape".

>>12816934
That's actually not true. You have, all throughout history, Islamic scholars who interpretated the Quarn and Hadith and made verious rulings based on different schools of interpretation. Only Salafis believe in taking direct judgment and interpretation by the average Muslim of the Hadith and Quran, the your assumption only applies to them.
That's basic knowledge that keeps being twisted because Salafis present themselves simply as representing "true Islam".

>>12815127
"Because I said so" may be a good reason for Muslins, but not for rational people.

>>12816972

>Given that the actions of Muhammad are considered the basis of moral decisions in Islam today. Not just in a historical context.

You did not address it. Try again please.

>>12816968
You accused me of helping you argue your own point.

I elaborate why this is not so.

>pfffft
>idc
>buh-bye
Graceless.

>>12816978
Okay, will attempt again.

>PBH's example is the bedrock of modern muslim morality

Sure.

>So if PBH does CP, you think modern muslims are also allowed to CP if they want to?

Short answer is yes - but not in the modern secular state. They should do so in a fully shariah state.

If they want the benefits of the modern sec state, they should stay within those laws, INCLUDING embracing usury, which underlies the modern global economy.

You can be a modern muslim in a modern muslim state; in a modern secular state, you must be modern secular. You cant bring in the special "privileges" of your religion and expect everyone else to say nothing.

Example.

In non shariah countries that still recognize sharia, like Singapore and Malaysia, the shariah court is still answerable to the state secular court.

Meaning that if statutory rape or war crimes are committed that are permitted by shariah, but guilty under common law, the state court will still override the shariah ruling and send the "guiltless" muslim to jail.

They may believe as they wish in private; thoughtcrime is not actual crime. But if they act on their private morality in public and offends the laws of the public, i fully endorse punishment.

>>12817003
Add:

In islam, usury is haram.

>>12817003
Okay to recap:
>According to Islam child sex is morally acceptable
>Child sex is okay if its in a sharia controlled country
>in secular state the law of the land takes precedent though
Accurate?

If a secular state becomes majority Islamic and they decide to implement sharia via democratic vote. Then that is also acceptable and the same rules start to apply as in a traditionally sharia controlled country?

>>12817027

Accurate recap.

Secular to shariah isnt common, but i suppose it can happen if islamic fervor reaches critical mass, as the indonesian hardliner agitproping "imam" talking heads are trying to make happen.

If it does, all nonmuslim minorities should wise up and buy ferry tickets. If you stay, i say it is on you if they end up beheading you.

>>12810491
pretty good summary.

>>12816924
The point of a lot of the objectors here is they dont WANT people to follow PBH's example.

Sure christians dont follow christ to the absolute letter; and jews dont follow moses to the letter; but if MUSLIMs follow PBH to the absolute letter, they're going to start killing the rest of us.

>>12815148
In Christianity you're not supposed to deny your faith even on pain of death.
You know, because it's a religion with integrity.

>>12816578
All
>implications
are equal?

>>12817027
>What if a secular state democratically decide to turn shariah?
India and Pakistan is what happens.

Go read the wiki: pakistan is nearly always the one doing stealth invasions, breaking their own word, occupying other peoples outposts just because no one was in it, then refusing to give it back.
Pakistan is a "secular" state, but their practice of war and statecraft is muslim to 11.

>>12817204
I suppose not; they do differ in degree, but they are all horrifying.

>>12810371
>he pretends he knows how to read a language of ancient-arabic which nobody even speaks or writes in anymore on an anonymous imageboard
kys

>>12813082
depends on the religious movement inside of islam i.e. salafists, shiites or sunnis.

>>12815279
>>12815288
Idk but apparently it translates to "We have created them from what they know."

>>12815266
Are you retarded or something? I know English is not a Romance language but how dense do you have to be to not see the relationship it has with Italian or French or Spanish

Based and redpilled. Women are cattle and belong in Braaap Barns

tasty

>>12819071
I am asking you to show how it is close.

I have demonstrated grammarical difference, different rootwords ergo different basic vocab.

In response to this you have made bald assertions twice and insulted me once.

Defend your position:
The similarity of English and italian as similar languages apart from the shared alphabet.

They might be as foreign to each other as they are to Arabic, which is fair, but seems to me you can't concede this or else you will ALSO have to concede that there is no special difficulty translating the Koran into english while retaining the ALLEGED poetic/lyric integrity, since the same has been done for Dante, which is a younger body of work than the Koran.

>>12819071
It is perfectly fine not to have all the answers.

You do not need to change your mind about the Koran's special status, even if you have no answer for me.

This does not mean your position is wrong, only that you don't have an answer.

I am not setting out to prove anything against the koran or islam; i am against unsubstantiated claims. This is really all it is.

>>12820646
>>12820674
I'm not the same person you were talking about this with earlier. I'm not talking about the Quran's special status either. I'm also not saying that English and Italian are similar languages. I'm saying that English and Italian are more close than English and Arabic are. If you don't believe me, look at lexical similarities: English and Italian have much more in common in terms of shared words than English and Arabic

>>12810371
i hear this all the time from arabs seems like a meme because they don't write much of worth

>>12810126
This.
>>12810371
Not him but you are just deluded because many parts of it are repetitive as fuck. (Surat al rahman iirc) in achool we were taught how to make poems not repetitive and boring but that surah in particular is textbook shitty poem. And im a native arabic speaker

>>12812904
Nah it's accurate.
>>12812914
Nah,no true. The hadiths rules override those in the quran and thats what sunnis believe, which means its equal to the quran and even in higher position because if you have two contradicting commands and the hadith is the latter, you follow the hadith

>>12822024
Are you being intentionally misleading or just ignorant? The hadiths do not supersede the Quran, and there is even critical analysis of the hadiths by Islamic theologists and scholars to determine their trustworthiness

>>12822039
Im neither misleading nor ignorant. If a commandment in a hadith sahih came after a contradictory one in the quran, the hadith one overrules. The critical analysis is to determine if a hadith is sahih(trustworthy) or not and thats it. You being a quranist doesnt mean that the other one billion muslims dont follow what im saying (or at least their scholars)

>>12822024
>>12822039
It depends on the legal school. Some Islamic traditions actually do allow the Qur'an to be abrogated by the "sunnah," which is the body of legal doctrine derived from Muhammad's life, including the hadith.

Hey guys I just entered the thread. Someone tell me what were arguing about and give me reasons why I should support your side.

>>12822047
Thats simply not true, The Quran is regarded to be the literal word of God Himself. The hadith are accounts of the Prophet's sayings. While hadiths do have religous value, they do not have prevalence over the Holy Book. Provide a source to back up your claim if you disagree

>>12822048
Yes it depends on the school but they agree on one thing that the non-ahad hadith overrules the quran, the disagree on whether an ahad hadith overrules it or not.
Yes its called "naskh al sunnah lel koran"
>>12822053
A sunni muslim is obliged to believe that the quran and sunnah(hadith and actions) are exactly equal. An example of sunnah overruling the quran is the times of prayer iirc in quran you pray 3 times but now you see all muslims pray 5 times. There are very obvious examples of sunnah overruling the quran

>>12822049
Mohammed is a degenerate who had sex with a 9 year old and made her scrap off dried jizz from his prayer robes. And this is canon apparently. I think that has been confirmed already.

And the Quran is lyrical, but a bit bland. Not sure if this lead to a conclusion.

Something something English is similar to Arabic or something. Lost track of his one.

>>12822104
Oh okay.
Wasnt mohammed a jew though and shouldnt jews be clean? That doesnt sound very clean.
Also, I have a quaron (no one in my family is muslim though, we just have a lot of books) so I can see if its as lame as you say later.

>>12822106
They specifically declared it to be clean. It's part of the "purification" section.

You need to read in Arabic though.

>>12810051

>>12821107
Ok, cool.

>Shared words
Shared because coopted for convenience over time, not because they have a shared root.

English is notorious for stealing words.

And as i have pointed out, algebra, alchemy, elixir, as some of the ones i am aware of. These are coopted by English because they are unique and exciting concepts; now they are part of modern basic english.

Therefore, since english has coopted a fair bit arabic concepts, the alienness of arabaic is not so insurmountable that *no* poetic/lyric translation of the koran may be attempted with even fair success.

>>12822261
Add:

I also allowed that an extensive footnote, glossery, etc, may be included to make up for lost accuracy in the interest of keeping the lyricquality intact.

This has been done for dante, the penguin version of arabian nights; i have read these and i read all the foot and end notes as i go through the text. There is no excuse for the same thing not being done for the koran since:
-it is a far shorter text than either
-the lyric/poetic should be about as strong as arabian nights for the folks here to assert it so confidently
-it is an older text than either and more important than either; the scholarship and commentary that should have gone into its study MUST be bigger.

If youcan, just recommend me a lyrical trans of the koran. Send link or title. I live two blocks from a muslim bookstore. I can go look and if satisfactory i will drop the point.

>>12816860
>You only know whether sex with prepubescent children is wrong when you have a moral system or a set of laws imposed on you? You do not find it objectionable on a rational or human level?
No, its a natural thing to do.

>>12812761
There's no need to be this butthurt if you really believe blasphemers of your proffit go to XXXtreme hell. Allah can take care of his own rep.

The problem is you dont really believe your own scripture, and you get triggered when people say it's shabby because you have / can accept nothing else.

>>12813351
Not the anon you were answering.

But here answering you.

>Holy language
So's hebrew, but that doesnt stop OT getting translated; i remember reading some Romantic era poets doing their own translations, and Wilde in prison wrote about reading NT in greek. Really no excuse for koran not being translated to english by infidels if it really is so beautiful.

>Go listen to recitations
I have; those are performances. It does not follow that what they read is lyrical in itself. If Eminem rapped an Enid Blyton text to a dope beat, does it make the text "gangsta?" I think not. R Kelly's "trapped in the closet" , is another example: it sounds like rap when he performs it, but all the "lyric" quality evaporates when you read it for yourself.

>>12814740
I like this post

>>12822338
Add:
>Those are performances
I say so because there's competition in read/singing the koran, with panels and prizes and all, like a religious The Voice. The singer is celebrated; not the text.

>>12822419
Add again:

If the text itself is lyrical, why do so many contestants sing it in different ways?

The "lyric" quality is not in-text, it's the singer's.

>>12822104
>Koran
>Lyrical

Still in the air.

>>12822104
>English
>Similar to arabic
Both anons agree it is not. In question is whether this stops Koran from being translated while retaining it's poetry.

>>12810413
there are no maidens as you described in paradise. no where in the qur'an is that mentioned.
inb4 you come with false translations and interpretations.

>>12814267
...

>Accidental stains
>On his prayer robes
Dude, this means he was masturbating or having sex in or around his robes.

The best explaination is he was having nocturnal emmissions, it means he was at least using the prayer robes as a blanket, or he ejaculates several feet AND that he has Noc Ems well into his forties.

You just made everything worse.

>>12812631
you're a cuck if you believe letting women whore out is in any way related to freedom.
death to the modern west.

>>12812701
You're calling him a neck beard while calling out a "logical fallacy" that in practice is effectively meaningless. Yes, people appeal to authority when an incomplete understanding of a subject occurs, and it seems better to refer to the opinion of someone who at the very least keeps up the appearance of being an expert. It isn't a 100% rigorous argument, but it isn't a "fallacy" in any real sense of the word unless you consider anyone who asks for citations to be committing the same.

Also, before you get your autistic panties in a bunch about "ad hominem", understand this. I'm not arguing against you. You're a fucking retard that doesn't know your ass from a hole in the ground. I'm insulting you for thinking you had anything valuable to contribute with your faggotty "call the logic police" bullshit.

>>12822481
Freedom to be a retard of your choice, self destructive and hellbound IS freedom.

You are confusing morality with free agency.

>You are a cuck if you don't agree
This is /lit/. Show, don't tell.

And also, NO U

>>12816846
beautiful file name

>>12822481
I can see why the 9/11 hijackers went to titty shows before go-time.

And that gay muslim gay who was so conflicted he thought the only way he could redeem his faggotry to Allah was to shoot up a gay nightclub.

You hate whores because you can't have them; you hate gays because you hate your own gay self; when you run out of bullet points to defend your religion to educated skeptics you seriously consider using hollow points.

Sure, death to the west; the west is full of fucked up shit. But you first, your shit is straight up evil.

>>12822529
I was making fun of >>12812654
genius

>>12822529

He's mimicking
>>12612654 (Me)
because he doesnt have an argument of his own and either won't think (lazy) or highly suspects he will be BTFO if he posts his real thoughts.

He's done this before:
>>12612747 (Me)

>>12612761 (him)

>>12822049
only babies get spoonfed. read the thread

>>12822594
Add:

>12810707 isnt me.

>>12822398
I read it because you did.

>>12822637
Thank you for your (You). There are a lot of good posts in this thread imo. Have you seen this one? (Or this chain)
>>12814340

>>12822646
I'm follow it right now.

Slow going, becase i'm slow. This is like hearing a convo in reverse

>>12810051
reads a lot like the bible but is more concise.

>>12822049
>enter arena
>King of the Hill match

>Request match to be changed to Capture the Flag
>With (You)rself as the flag

Kekekekekek

>>12810051
Mostly boring. Sometimes plain stupid. These are the slightly funny parts. But, overall a waste of time.

>>12810051
it´s garbage

>>12812904
The Prophet was just a man. He had nocturnal emissions. Aisha reported this instance to indicate that semen is impure and it must be washed off the cloth. The cloth itself refers to a robe that is worn by both men and women at the time. It isn't his prayer rug. Cloth being lost in translation often creates very bizarre Hadiths that without context imply lots of weird things such as this one implying the Prophet prays on his semen covered prayer rug to imply the Prophet cross dressed.

>>12816664
The twin text towers have not been bombed.

I dont feel right.

>>12822261
Yes, English has some words from Arabic. But this number is smaller than the shared number of words from Romance languages. I'm not even debating the Quran's translatability, but you seem to keep missing that. I'm only that Italian and other Romance languages are closer to English than Arabic is. Also, your conclusion that the Quran is tranlatable because English has coopted some words isn't really logical.

>>12823825
>Just a man with night spurts
I am ok with the fact if night spurts alone. But at the time he was between late 40s and early 50s, depending on source. I thought 99% of night spurts end with late teens? And the way it's presented seems like it's a semiregular problem at least. I'm not sure he's "just a man" if this is true: his sheer fecundity puts him beyond pornstud levels.

>Cloth is just a normal unisex robe
Okay, i can accept that. I took it as a prayer robe because a mus-anon in a prev post said it was. You're the first to say otherwise.

>>12823934
I don't know about the Prophet's biology man. He was recorded as a very healthy man. There are Hadith of him beating top wrestlers of his city in his 50s to convert them and he basically fought in wars until his final year.

>>12823922
Good, getting somewhere. Thank you for humoring me.

>Not debating translatabilty
Ok. I was under the impression that you were, and you did not deny it outright until prev post.

>I am only saying the romance languages are closer to english than arabic is

Agree english would coopt more words from Yurop than the middle east, on basis of locality and shared history.

But coopted words and the same typeset is the extent of said closeness; i still can't read a paper from naples; one or two words per paragraph can be guessed, that's it. Having a functional grasp of 3% is little different from having 0%; i am still illiterate inspite of the closeness of the language.

>Your conclusion that the quran is translatable just because of some shared words is illogical
You are mistaken. I did not conclude this from that. I know the koran is translatable: i have read an english trans of it, and it did not impress me as to its poetry.

I am saying: there is no excuse for the koran *not* to be translated with poetic/lyric integrity, and as such i am asking for a poetic/lyric translation from any anon who asserts that the koran is poetic/lyrical.

>>12823985
Big if true.

He sounds like Moses, Solomon and Samson all in one package.

>>12823825
So a grown ass man with at least 3 wives has wet dreams and uses the same rug he sleeps in, walk around and pray in?

Apologists get more creative every day.

Is this the greatest piece of literature to ever come from down under?

>>12814267
Da hell you say.
I'm not attending five-a-day prayer sessions next to no nastyass nigger who got cumcrust on the front of his tarboosh.

The imam says we gots ta let him in on 'count of the hadith if he "scrape it off" but i sware i go ghetto and smack him with his own sandal, he so much as brush me with his fucking hands.

The JEWs from BC 800 got the idea to wash they clothes AND they dirty thievin mitts after a wet dream, and they were considered nayasty till evening, gotta stay the fuck outside the camp. Thats 1400years before Mohd's time; since one of the first people he showed his koran to was a jew, they musta been around, and he musta known what they standard of clean was.

Now he saying just a wipe off was good? This one of them errors in the scriptures of the jews and chrisshuns yous always talking about? Or issum one of those "abrogations" you use to plaster over contradictory shit alladamn time?

This fukken nasty ass nigge got no momma he so nasty, walkin' about in his stains 'n shit, get a child to wipe his mannaise.

Any nigge follow dis Mohd fool's example in the big house he gon get shanked, carryin on all day with a big ol stain on the front like its a talisman.

Tell you what doe: if dis foo' Mohd be fo real, all his homies following his example gon end up in heaven early and en mass.

Mfw Islam is scaring the shit out of the entire globe

Name me One other system of life-philosophy -religion -social structure - on the move like Islam. Even what Islam “fails to do”, it’s very aims/goals/victories are incomparable. Think about why OP even had to ask the question.

>>12825901
Used to be Judaism and then the world tried to get rid of them.
Then it was Christianity and then people tried to be less Christian.
Now it's Islam and I bet they're going to stop being cool once people just start murdering them on sight.

>>12810051
I like to think of Islam as militarized Christianity. Moses fled and prophesied, Jesus fulfilled the prophesy and died, Mohammed created the community that would be victorious in the campaign against the idol worshippers

>>12825901
>Aims/goals/victories are incomparable
Incomparable to the point that half this thread has no problem blaspheming, that the atheist/zionist/crusaders still playing power games with middle east, SEA muslim nations indon and malasia still behind US- and chinacuck singapore, israel still exists after 70years, and Cabul is a bombed out mess? Geddouddahea.

>Why OP even had to ask the question
1)OP is a mus-cuck and wants /lit/ to praise his book and affirm
2)OP is a jew or christck or atheist and wants /lit/ to shit on his book
3)OP genuinely wants /lit/ opinion by postcount

>>12825901
They are the only ones left who take this whole religion thing seriously. I doubt they can keep this up without the constant war/interventions in the middle east though. Islam used to be in decline and pretty soft in general before the 20th century and the Islamic revival in particular. Without the big unifying narrative all they have left is hating on Israel and that gets old quickly.

>>12825925
>Moses fled and prophesied
No, moses delivered and established Law. He fled nothing, and prophesied only at the end of his career.

>Jesus fulfilled the prophesy and died
Jesus fulfilled the propheCIES, plural, died, and rose again.

You have a problem leaving out the real big achievements you know that?

But then you have to, otherwise Mohammad will be very clearly useless.

>>12825901
What do you mean by "on the move?"

It's not "moving" anywhere, just abusing the humanitarian hospitality of the western countries that it purports to hate.

>>12825901
Victories like the six day war you mean?

Where the muzzo nations attacked israel on a holy day when everyone was off guard?

And then getting BTFO so bad that Israel got Sinai, and the UN had to come in and stop plundering the nations that tried to plunder it?

Your willful blindness is staggering.

>>12826103
Edit

The UN had to come in and stop Israel from plundering its olunderers.

>>12826106
>olunderers
Nice edit nerd

>>12826111
Sure, if it lets you sleep at night.

Six day war. Shortest BTFO by the pantsdown underdog VS multiple bigger nations in all recorded history. You can beat my poor edit, but you can't beat that.

>>12825901
If i'm going to follow whomever has the biggest victories, i'll follow the Jews.

-own hollywood and wallstreet
-alliance with the gnomes of zurich
-survived the holocaust
-survived being 70years in the middle of nations that hate it so much they dont let their beauty contestants take selfies together
-key contributors to Manhattan project
-have zionist christians in their side; no such thing as kaliphate christians
-invented the Uzi (uz, hebrew for strength) and krav maga , which proved so effective they became world memes.
This is what victory might look like; what islam has got aint it.

>>12826196
Let me put in a couple more:

-in napoleon's time Israel was described as a malaria infested swamp; now the jews have made the land so prosperous and luscious, iran iraq and the rest of them can't help licking their lips, crf Gaza.
-israel produces tulips and sells them to holland. TULIPS. HOLLAND.

I'm not saying the jews are admirable or condoning their bullshit, but these are legit wins.

Suddenly the jew fan club arrived.

>>12826118
Anwar Sadat came in bust down the door retook what was taken and then signed a peace treaty in a week. It was a victory buddy

>>12826235
And for comparison of 70 years independence amidst bigger hostile and hungry countries, look at Kashmir:

Started out as an independent princedom when the brits backed out of india; doesnt want to be annexed by india or pakistan. Shortly after, pakistan sneaks troops in and overruns it; annex first, justify later. Kashmir then appeals to india, which promises troops only if it becomes india's bitch first. Result: divided up the middle. And then China jumps in, gets a slice too.

Same length of time as israeli independence: 71 years, but kashmir has been ripped in three by india, pakistan and chinkland.

>>12826047
HE FLED THE EGYPT wtf is wrong with you

>>12826365
Indeed it is. I do not deny it.

But not a pantsdown-underdog-BTFO-VS-multiple-hostiles-victory like Israel did for the 6 day war.

I dont expect israel to win every time; but the extend of 6DW win was epic. Anwar's 1v1 win of pitched battle vs not israel itself, but the sinai occupied territory, is not in the same league.

>>12826382
He did not flee egypt, he delivered the jews out of it with miracles, if you believe the records of OT.

Why should he flee egypt? He was a PRINCE in egypt, part of pharaoh's household.

>>12826382
>CAPSLOCK
>FULL AUTO
You know this convinces nobody. Why do you even try this.

>>12826410
6DW was 1v4 (iran iraq syria jordan; 1v6 if you count PLO and Lebanon).

I think Israel was already exhausted from the 1v4, and was overstretched in Sinai anyway; Anwar was playing easy mode.

>>12826410
To add:

From the wiki:

Egypt advanced virtually unopposed until the Sinai peninsula.
After 3 days Israel mobilized and halted the advance.

Then:
"Egyptian President Sadat began to worry about the integrity of his major ally. He believed that capturing two strategic passes located deeper in the Sinai would make his position stronger during post-war negotiations; he therefore ordered the Egyptians to go back on the offensive, but their attack was quickly repulsed."

And then the UN stepped in to broker peace.

This is not a decisive win; it is barely a technical win.

The Arab world claim this as a victory the way US patriots keep saying it didn't lose in Vietnam.

>>12826499
Anwar played easy mode and did not get flawless victory.

Poor show.

>>12826365
Why did he need to sign a peace treaty if it was a win?

He signed it because he knows he might lose if he keeps fighting.

Sadat: "tell you what (pant pant), i'm gonna show (bleeeeed owww) mercy to you. Sign (hrrng my ribs) this treaty and i'll (kaaaf is that a tooth) let you off for now."

Yeah, real toughguy, Sadat.

>>12826499
Snrt

Started a fight in the playground he couldnt finish, had to wait for teacher Miss UN to step in.

What kind of a bully are you Sad Annie?

>>12810051
Pretty boring, but I liked the part where they bully Jews and homos.