/lit/ - Literature

Not books thread, please go back to your containment

>>12788997
Pic is from an interview with the translator of MGS2.

>>12788997
metal gear is tom clancy-tier, fuck off.

Ah Hideo Kojima, or as he's known in my crib, God.

>>12789011
I read this recently. It was certainly interesting but it gave me a bad impression of her. She's right, of course, but it's strange to get so worked up over pulp being pulpy. I think she genuinely did resent MGS and Kojima and this affected her work on the game.

>>12789011
>fission mailed.jpg

>>12789011
source?

>>12788997
If you are still playing video games past the age of 25, reevaluate your life and goals

gamers are one of the most autistic fanbase on the internet (and real life), videogames are virtual toys, not art

>>12789301
Silent Hill 2 is art

>>12789309
sure bucko

>>12789011
I would largely agree with this. However, the final result in Kojima's work is still excellent, and, like Kubrick, the style often makes up for the questionable writing, not to mention that Kojima manages with each game to at least meet the standards of games at his time. There was nothing like MGS1 in terms of story when it existed, and the same could be said for it's sequel, MGS3, and even MGS4, (which is still very unique). You also have to keep in mind how low are the standards for stories for video games. The stories could be "better written," but perhaps the same could even be said for Kubrick's work, but even the stories themselves are better because of how unique they were, (even when he's adapting the sort of work that is totally unlike the basis for most other movies, like Barry Lyndon and A Clockwork Orange).

I think the stories suit the style of game well, and perhaps the stories should be seen more like conduits for Kojima to do things no other game is doing, rather than well-written in their own right.

To be fair, Kojima blundered seriously, both on a creative, and a production level, for MGSV, so not only was a clearly incomplete made, but the design itself was questionable, and it would have taken several more years to meet the standard set by previous MGS games, and would have required replacing all the filler missions with actual story, and totally revamping the story, and unless huge amounts of the story were not only left on the cutting board, but made, and simply not put into the game, beyond the partially-finished ending, Kojima horribly mismanaged the project.

The trailers were fucking phenomenal, though.

>>12789321
yep

>>12789269
She's applying the standards of primetime television and Oscarbait to the otaku world of anime, video games, and manga. It's a pretension of 'that' world against the otaku/nerd one.

Yes. It is obvious that if the script for MGS landed on an industry executive's desk with zero context, it would be ignored.
>SO THERE'S THIS SUPER SOLDIER RIGHT SOLID SNAKE AND HE HAS TO FIGHT THE-
It only works in the psychedelic autistic world of video games.

If it were true that Kojima were a hack, then games staffed with entertainment industry giants like Peter Jackson's King Kong and Advent Rising (Orson Scott Card) would deliver the same emotional and intellectual impact as MGS. But they don't. Few games do. The rules of 'that' industry do not apply to this one and vice-versa. Many of the people who have achieved the highest critical and financial success in 'that' world have come out in praise of the guy. His Twitter page is full of these people legitimizing him.

in the gameplay department is utterly inferior to the first two Thief games

>>12789299
Based

>>12789299
If you aren't still playing video games past the age of 25, reevaluate your life and goals

>>12789403
For real, though, I would play games if I still found them stimulating. The only game I've played in years that I didn't get bored of was Team Fortress 2, and I still get addicted to that shit whenever I play.

Games that can stimulate you as much as reading would be good suggestions. With reading, if I'm not stimulated enough, I can simply read faster, or just read something else. With games, there's the hassle of installing it, trying it out, perhaps paying money for it, (while everything I'm interested in reading is either free, or I can easily pirate), requires a console, learning to play just to get an idea if it will be stimulating, etc.

If there was a game that was easily accessible, or worth the hassle of getting used to, I would like to hear of it.

>>12789420
Fortnite

>>12789420
There are both difficult books and difficult video games, anon. Going the casual route is always the least fulfilling in the end.

>>12789441
>Going the casual route is always the least fulfilling in the end.
Was that what I was implying? I want a game that will draw me in and demand the same level of concentration that say, I would get from learning an instrument.

>>12789420
It depends on what you're looking for. What kind of stimulation do you want?

Something a bit free-form and open book, that lets you do what you want? Then try Mount and Blade or Kenshi.

Something with a lot of reading and having to experiment in order to tackle challenges? Then try EYE: Divine Cybermancy or Deus Ex.

Risk analysis and tactical planning? XCOM or Darkest Dungeon.

A mix of roleplaying and empire building? Age of Wonders or Endless Legend.

Whatever you want, there is something out there for it. I can provide a lot more recommendations if need be.

>>12789466
I do not find games to be stimulating enough, which is why I don't play them, as much as I like the idea of games. The following game would be:

A game that would meet the aforementioned requirement would be the following: you are given n quantity of numbers, a number somewhere else indicating the number of required responses, and a time limit that starts as soon as you see the numbers. Once you press a button, the first number will disappear, the other numbers sill shift to the left, and a new number will appear at the end. After this happens for n number of times, you have to provide the first number which disappeared, at which point, whether you get it wrong or right, the first numbers disappear, and the process after that point will begin, in which you have to provide the second number which disappeared, etc.

After the time runs out, or you submit a predetermined numbers of responses, the percentage of responses you offered correctly will be calculated, and if you submitted a number of responses below this predetermined amount, the difference between that and the number of your responses will be considered incorrect, (just like a test). Based on the percentage of correct answers, (which might b user-determined), the difficulty will be increased, either by increasing the quantity of numbers you have to memorize at one time, decreasing the time limit, or the increase the total required answers. This calculation will happen immediately after the first session ends, and another session will start immediately after the first one ends.

This sounds admittedly pretty dry, (and hardly original), but it will allow for a unceasing and brutal challenge without a single second of pause. If there are any games in which there isn't a single moment of downtime, and you never have to automatic response to anything, and it's not based on prior memorization, please suggest them.

Pic related is obviously what this is based on, but with numbers.

(I copied this from a thread I made on /v/)

A difference, however, is I would want something that integrated a world and a story into this sort of gameplay.

>>12789480
Try Factorio.

The most interesting games are the ones that goes out of its way to let you create your own narrative, Kenshi is the first one in a while to really catch me

BING BING WAHOO

>>12789011
Yea well that definitely explains the cheesy commentary, I just the thought the game series was a spoof. Like a joke/comedy series.

Lets be honest, Assassins Creed 2 and the Witcher 3 are the two greatest games of the past two decades of gaming, I don't know anything prior.

>>12789011
SOMEbody doesn't understand postmodernism...

>>12789325
MGSV is one of the best games ever made though and the best gameplay in the series by far

>>12789420
ICO and Shadow of the Colossus

>>12789522
>Ubishit
>press X to WITCHER

lol no

>>12789299
Thats just your opinion if you don't want to. I find video games very cathartic

>>12789011
She'll be proven wrong when Death Stranding comes out
>>12789420
Try some VNs or some CRPGs like Baldur's Gate

>>12789448
Play autistic arcade games like shmups made by CAVE

>>12789480
In addition to Factorio (which is excellent) there are also games by Zachtronics, which are also about programming and optimization.

Another great and challenging puzzler is the recently released Baba Is You, which is about logical rules instead of optimization but it's brain melting nevertheless.

>>12789558
>BRIGHT COLORS
>SPACESHIPS
>BING DING DING BLEEP BLEEP BOOP
>ANIME GIRL CONCEPT ART
>TOTAL POINTS:128975289798210742

Is there any reason to play this kind of shmup unless you're some Dunning-Kruger gook trying to prove that you're "skilled" at something?

>>12789631
uh oh pseud alert

>>12789011

But what about Tomokazu Fukushima?

>>12789544
The Ezio trilogy was great, apart from Ubisoft they are masterpieces.

Witcher 3 is an undisputed masterpiece. Stop being edgy.

Oh look, another thread where pseuds pretend to be above video games because they read a handful of books. Colour me surprised.

>>12789297
google agness kaku interview

>>12789309
Silent Hill 2 is basically "Crime and Punishment and Zombies"

>>12789672
POI spam is a game ruining mechanic

>>12789672
witcher 3 is not a bad game at all but the combat is mediocre, main story is shit and the world, while beautiful, is too empty of meaning content. finding random chest #322 is a waste of time. good game? no doubt. masterpiece?....no thanks

>>12789631
>this surface-level analysis of an entire subculture and decades-old genre
If you did some proper investigating you would realize that the art direction of the most praised games in the genre isn't just random and eye-catching, they are part of the functional design of the games and are an inseparable part of the experience at more advanced levels of play. Good luck even trying to 1CC the first stage of games like Mushihimesama with that shallow understanding.

>>12789631
Yes, if you like the sort of challenge arcade games give the player. Obviously if you don't find the idea of point collecting for the sake of it appealing you're not going to enjoy them, but they give a sky high skill ceiling to those who like to challenge themselves. They also demand constant concentration. Go ahead and try to pull off a western record (because you will never break the Japanese records) in any of the bigger titles and see how many years of daily training it will take you.

It seems like you just don't like Japanese games though, which means that you won't like most action/real-time games with a focus on the mastery of its mechanics. If you can't look past the visual design it's your loss.

Still yet to play a game which even begins to approach the aesthetic value present in other mediums. They're an enjoyable recreational tool and are a great way of connecting with friends that you no longer live close to, but I don't really view them as too much more than that.

>>12789717
>Go ahead and try to pull off a western record (because you will never break the Japanese records) in any of the bigger titles and see how many years of daily training it will take you.
Imagine actually spending your life doing this

>>12789690
But you are missing the point, the Witcher 3 does not have the best gameplay yes but the setting, the story, the characters, the acting, the music all come together to create a masterwork although yes the character carry the story they got the setting and themes right which is equal in importance to characters that is if one wants a work of art.

Same thing with AC2. Gameplay is important but not the most important when the vidya medium becomes a medium for art.

>>12789705
What do you mean, the Story yes in context isn't exactly that original and is stupid at points but you must admit the beauty and artwork that it is for many reasons. As I have said here>>12789728

>>12789728
>Witcher 3 does not have the best gameplay
Then it's not a masterpiece video game. Also the story is tolken fantasy with a slav touch, hard to argue the brilliance of something like that outside of maybe /v/

>>12789728
>Gameplay is important but not the most important when the vidya medium becomes a medium for art.
debatable

>>12789721
Different creative formats don't all share the same type of aesthetic value. But video games certainly have their own high vs. low aesthetic values already, within the context of what they offer.

>>12789538
this is true, the gameplay in MGSV is the best i’ve ever felt in a game that wasn’t Melee.

I love the philosophical questions the game works around, but I agree it handles them poorly much of the time and suffers from simultaneous over- and under-writing.

>>12789725
I really respect anyone who does, getting so good at anything is commendable

>>12789728
If a game's 'artfulness' exists in components outside of gameplay, why would it not be better served in another medium? If it were in another medium, it would likely reveal how trite they are, hence why most game adaptations are piss poor.
>>12789743
I can accept the artfulness in the construction of the game's mechanics, but I'm very skeptical that games are an effective medium for communicating the kind of artistic 'truths' present in literature, cinema e.t.c. I'd be happy to be proven wrong though.

>>12789762

Not him, but you don't sound like you want to be proven wrong at all. It's quite alright to not like something, though.

>>12789738
Yea it still can be. Gameplay is important for at minimum it must be somewhat fun if it is bad gameplay than the purpose of the game cannot shine through which would be the story, characters, setting ect.

>>12789742
Then debate.

>>12789776
I'm interested in art in general, so I would rather experience an artistically successful game than not, if such a game exists.

>>12789269
She doesn't pretend otherwise, she didn't even choose to work on MGS, she was essentially forced to by Konami because the previous translator quit.

>>12789762
>I'd be happy to be proven wrong though.
The games we're discussing here prove you wrong. Video games are in fact the best way to communicate the reflection of the self due to the requirement of direct aggressive participation in order to experience them. They may not be as good at communicating "society at large" or "humanity at large" or other broad ideals as books or movies are, but when it comes to communicating something personal about the viewer itself? Being challenged to try and 1CC a bullet hell will teach you things about yourself. It will teach you discipline and how to reach a meditative state you may not have known you could pull off. Or a sandbox game like Kenshi will show you what kind of leader you are. Video games explore the leader in us better than any other medium.

>>12789762
>If a game's 'artfulness' exists in components outside of gameplay, why would it not be better served in another medium? If it were in another medium, it would likely reveal how trite they are, hence why most game adaptations are piss poor.

Well simply because there is a unique style in which those adaptable components as you say behave and so this being the common mistake in not understanding them being adaptable in nature so as to both better define the experience as well as lay being the end goal of the experience, a games many factors reciprocate towards each other in a much different and larger extent than most mediums or any medium for that matter of course there is always going to be a minus to the plus, but it may be seen as a neutral change for a neutral effect within terms of value.

For example cinematography is unique to the film but it is not the most important aspect, extremely important yes but not the most important. Keep in mind the difficulty of talking within the walls of these unique aspects of the artistic mediums because their necessity as the basis of that particular medium.

>>12789538
Yes to the latter, no to the former. Story sucks, mission structure sucks. It's a game with a great foundation, but content that is poorly or incompletely designed around this content.

The story was fucking worthless except to make trailers, which might actually be a first in video games, and a game that is so disproportionately better in trailers than the actual game is rare.

I think the structure itself it suspect, but the idea of having stealth mechanics over a world that's relatively barren compared to AS, (not that I think those games are better), along with largely filler missions, was mistaken. I don't think the story would ever have been good.

But I enjoyed it, and the polish that is there is impression considering how it was clearly rushed, though I would say considering how long it took for the game to get to that point that Kojima was clearly less effective from a production standpoint.

>>12789558
Those games seem to rely too much for my preference on memorizing levels.

>>12789796

I didn't mean it in ill will, it's just that whenever this argument comes up, either the one who convinces gets autistic about things they like ( "I like it, so it must be art" ), or the one who is to be convinced just moves the goalposts all day long because they don't want to be convinced. Arguments like this are futile.

>>12789784
>Then debate.
there are plenty of other artistic endeavors that do not have gaming

>Yea it still can be
but the thing is W3 doesn't do anything unique even including its gameplay, so...

>>12789803
>Being challenged to try and 1CC a bullet hell will teach you things about yourself. It will teach you discipline and how to reach a meditative state you may not have known you could pull off. Or a sandbox game like Kenshi will show you what kind of leader you are. Video games explore the leader in us better than any other medium.
Leave your basement every once and a while you fucking nerd. Jesus Christ you're deluded.

>>12789823
>there are plenty of other artistic endeavors that do not have gaming

point being?

Thief is the GOAT

>>12789832
If the gameplay isn't the focus of the game then it's something else with mechanics growing out of it like a tumor, artistically speaking.

Why are we still treating "art" as some sort of quality that highbrow works should strive towards when it's absolutely irrelevant as a concept? It serves no purpose to argue a work's "artfulness" other than reinforcing the idea within ourselves that it is "art". You should take the Duchamppill, boys.

>>12789816
This actually depends on the game, though some of them are really routing dependant on high level play. Execution is still 90% more important however, having a good plan doesn't help if you can't pull it off. Generally the patterns are too dense and fast to really remember completely and there is often also a small element of rng in them.

But yeah, if the idea of playing the same stages over and over isn't appealing then these games aren't for you.

>>12789828
Not an argument. What I'm talking about mostly applies to younger people, between 14-25. After that, you shouldn't be using video games to learn what kind of leadership skills you have. But during that time, you can definitely use them to help you understand yourself. That's part of what makes games, including physical sports, a valuable part of our youth in the first place. There are certain skills only video games can assess that physical sports can't help you determine.

>>12789803
>Or a sandbox game like Kenshi will show you what kind of leader you are. Video games explore the leader in us better than any other medium.
You can tell me about how much of a leader you are once you've actually led real human beings in real life. When you have to deal with people and all of their problems and personalities, people that can tell you fuck off or punch you in the face if you offend them, and still rally them to accomplish a common goal -- not static video game sprites that you order around with a mouse-click. The fact that you think a video game is equivalent to this shows you have no experience in the real world.

>>12789865
No, there's no correlation at all. A video game is just learning how to best game a set system created by the programmer. It has nothing to do with leading real humans. See >>12789867

>>12789193
There are plebs on this board who actually think Bleeding Edge isn't his best book.

>>12789803
I can accept that video games have the capacity to develop cognitive skills, there's quite a lot of evidence to support that. This does raise the question of whether games such as sudoku or chess are 'artful' or not, given that they provide the same rewards. Also this >>12789867
>>12789806
I don't really buy the cluster conception of mediums. Every medium has some degree of crossover with other mediums, sure, but it is in the defining features of that specific medium that you find unique value. If you didn't create a work that best utilised the features of the area you're creating in, then why use it at all?
>>12789818
That's probably right

>>12789858
This, especially if we're talking about Japanese games when Japan apparently doesn't have the same sort of distinction between "high" and "low" art as the West.

>>12789867
>>12789875
So, being a quality member or star member of a football team, or the equivalent in a team in a multiplayer-based video game, has NO merits to it whatsoever? There is NOTHING to learn about yourself from these activities?

I have to disagree with you 100%. I think games are an excellent tool for understanding yourself, if you know exactly what about yourself you are trying to understand from them. Your ability to perform in serious real life situations? No, they won't tell you that. Your purpose in life? No, they won't tell you that. What type of social or employment outfit you are best suited for? Perhaps. What team roles you are best suited for? Perhaps. Your ability to assess risk, seek out patterns, improvise timely, cooperate and communicate effectively, etc.? Definitely. Again, they are for younger people — you reach a certain age and they aren't effective at telling you anything about yourself anymore. But when you are young and hardly know yourself, they are a good way to get started, because games are simply a recreational rendering of serious real life premises, most being simulations of war in some way.

And there is obviously craftsmanship and design involved in their development, so this combined with their cultural value above makes video games a kind of art.

>>12789853
Well it depends upon the creator of the games direction in what he wishes to birth.

But in regards to a game that can be called a work of art it must take hold of these instinctive associations used within all art forms and mold something in which is a new experience. The gameplay and whatever unique aspect of an artistic medium is present within said such medium is equal within necessity for very identity of the medium apart from the collective artistry.

Gameplay has importance within a game which takes on a new and artistic form which wishes to express truth for that is what the nature of art is... Truth. But this importance to it being an artistic medium only lasts as long as the defining functions of artistic expression are present in an effective manor and way.

>>12789885
>I don't really buy the cluster conception of mediums. Every medium has some degree of crossover with other mediums, sure, but it is in the defining features of that specific medium that you find unique value. If you didn't create a work that best utilised the features of the area you're creating in, then why use it at all?

I was not aware that someone else had such description although I suppose I gathered at least from an unconscious level that someone before me has proposed this it was not my mean to identify and use this particular theory.

But now onto this particular theory and your critique of it...

What defines it as an artistic medium is the crossover of certain key characteristic and it's imprint upon the uniqueness of such medium alone. And no it is not the defining features of that specific medium that you find value in for if it was there would be no desire for a minimal level of aesthetic within all regards above gameplay or whatever the unique medium itself it would simply be in itself by minimal usage of the aesthetic by the appreciation and knowing existence of the medium alone. So it is not the defining features of that medium alone but the defining features of art and that particular artistic medium. Otherwise it ceases to be an artistic medium. I have gone over the intermingling of the collective functions in which art uses to attach itself to the form (medium in and of itself).

>>12789861
>if the idea of playing the same stages over and over isn't appealing then these games aren't for you.
It's not. I could deal with repetitive gameplay, but it can't be so heavily based on repetition.

Quite frankly, if somebody took the Lumosity games, and made a conventional game out of them, being at least as effective at integrating gameplay as most RPGs are, that would be closer to my ideal game than anything else on the market.

That isn't saying that Lumosity games are better than current games, even for my preferences, and I do place a lot of value on story, graphics, ludological harmony, etc., but I wish games had some of the immediate and constant intensity of "brain games." That probably exists in competitive play of various games, or even games like chess, but those games only allow intense play after dozens of hours of experience, while I would like very simple games that can immediately challenge you, like Lumosity, and of course, not just simple, but atrophying, like 99.9% of mobile games.

>>12788997
Anyone who unironically compares mediums wholesale is too egotistical to partake in art in the first place. It's NOT A COMPETITION, EVERY MEDIUM IS IT'S OWN UNIQUE MIRROR OF REALITY

>>12789992
I used to think this but then I tried Manga and realised how it is still a medium but is also inferior to all others, it has a plus but it does not out way the negative.

>>12789998

( You )

>>12789958
Isn't that just puzzle games? The pure ones, which just give you increasingly difficult puzzles to solve. Getting better is often the only reward for the player and they're often easy to grasp on a basic level.

I'm not sure what Luminosity is like, apparently it's some sort of collection of puzzle games with RPG exp/level collecting mechanics on top of it?

It would be cool if there were more games with less set objectives/puzzles whatever you have to solve. Sort of like Minecraft or Dwarf Fortress

>>12789998
manga isn't a medium, comics is

>>12789689
and that's a good thing

Player agency is the one thing that games have to distinguish themselves from every other medium available but game developers choose to neglect this crucial aspect and instead focus on aping shit that other mediums do better like cutscenes or music. Only games that fully embrace the fact that Players are what make games special and not cutscenes or heavyhanded stories should ever be considered "art". Its for this reason that I think games like Space Station 13 are the only true examples of "artful" computer games in existence. A branchin story path isnt "player agency". The player should be able to write their own story not follow the one you wrote.

IMO, designing great gameplay is an artform.

Making engaging gameplay that delivers the intended experience requires a knowledge of gameplay balancing, level design and even sound and art design. This is where the true strength of the medium lies. Story meanwhile, should be a secondary concern used as flavouring to enhance the experience rather than being the bedrock of the experience itself.

Video games will never be taken seriously as an artform until people realise that it’s the gameplay that’s the art rather than anything else.

>>12790311
>tfw banned from every decent ss13 sever for doing dumb still like getting bored and pushing someone into space

>>12790007
>Isn't that just puzzle games?
Nope. I could go into why puzzle games don't satisfy these conditions. The Witness, for example, and in almost every way that game is designed, it's contrary to my ideal. Portal and its sequel, far, far superior games, are "fun" and well-designed, no doubt, but also not what I want.

I'm not suggesting that game development is easy, or my ideas are better than what developers come up with, only that as much as I love the ideas of games, I would prefer games of a particular sort that would encourage me to play them much more, allowing that plenty of people probably would not be interested in what I want from a game. Many people could probably complain that numerous developers, perhaps all, make games that suit their taste worse than what games they made in the past. The best example I think would be Bethesda, where many hard-core fans, (not me, but I'm familiar with the basis of what fans of old Bethesday games complain of), complain so much of their games have been casualized, though I think it's quite undeniably that doing was the best decision they could have possibly done financially. In the words of Julian LeFay, often called the "Father of Elder Scrolls":

>"... I can't say that [Todd] has done anything other than really well for the franchise. That being said, the game he's making is not the game I would have made."

So as successful as some games have been because of their design that is less demanding on players, and perhaps games in general today compared to years ago, I am less pleased by them. However, at least those who yearn for games of old have concrete realizations of what would constitute good games, while everything I want in games is largely unfeasible for various reasons, though I would never suggest that my taste is somehow superior to others, only that I wish that somehow games could cater more to what I wanted, respecting that this is not the case because it would not appeal to other people, so I accept this.

Frankly, more hardcore gamers who would want things in games that would necessarily make them somewhat niche no matter how good they were, (like Dark Souls and Persona), should be this tolerant, (which is a self-serving statement, but I'm not going to stress too much about expressing it more humbly, as the sentiment itself is rather humble).

>I'm not sure what Luminosity is like, apparently it's some sort of collection of puzzle games with RPG exp/level collecting mechanics on top of it?
Not even close, my friend. It's basically just a collection of minigames that are supposedly backed by research that indicate they increase their intelligence, but that is very questionable.

I like them because they are simple, can be played in short bursts, and can be genuinely challenging. I used to play them a lot until I discovered Anki, and realized I might as well satisfy those desires while doing something quasi productive, (like learning a language).

>clearly off-topic discussion
>a genuinely good discussion of games and game design than I have every seen on /v/

Wow, I think I misjudged /lit/. The pretentiousness of some here, the obscurity of the subjects still bothers me, and the slowness of the board bothers me, but this discussion is fucking great. I've tried to initiate similar discussion on /v/, and it's always either been largely or completely a total failure.

I see now that the pretentiousness and obscurity are problems that I have to accept, and the low population is necessary for anything of intelligence and substance to be posted here.

I think I might try posting a thread I did a few months ago on /v/, (and then /vr/, to much, much better results), on video game patents, which was a focus on the language used in them and how gameplay could be so minutely described, a thread which I actually enjoyed making and put a lot of effort into, and I'll try doing it here, and hopefully it's "lit" enough.

>>12790514
backed by research that indicate they increase intelligence*

>>12789193
Does Pynchon play video games?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1gVIFUVebU

>>12790587
Pynch plays exclusively ero VNs

>>12790553
Just use a book or author you can refer around even if its just loosely

This is /lit/

>>12789808
>Story sucks,
what's the matter 2deep4u?

>>12790378
>Story meanwhile, should be a secondary concern used as flavouring to enhance the experience rather than being the bedrock of the experience itself.
I largely agree with what you say, but I will allow a caveat that if somebody has a story in mind that they think might work better in a game, it might make sense to change the medium, if only because perhaps the story you have in mind might turn into a better game than a movie, novel, television series, etc.

To use a somewhat similar example, what Brahms originally intended to make his first symphony ultimately became his first concerto, which might have made sense on a purely practical level, which was that he had in him at the time enough familiarity with the piano and the orchestra to make a piece that combined both, but not enough familiarity with the orchestra to make a pure orchestral piece.

I would allow that changing the form of a symphony to a concerto is less drastic than changing the original medium of a story to that of a game, (and the medium of games are so unique that the change would be very drastic regardless of what was the original medium).

The developers that I think most embody the approach you suggest would be those behind Nintendo's most prominent games, and while there are many meritorious elements to their games over others in the market even today, to be very frank, it has been a long time since there games were consistently first-rate.

The studio or studios of comparable significance that probably most represent the opposite approach would be the internal Square Enix studios, a set of developers which are clearly long past their prime relative to others. However, they have produced many games in the past using a method inverse to what you propose, games which have resonated well with many people, and unless every game designed from the perspective of so many elements prioritized before gameplay, (including overarching story, lore, world building, graphics, cinematics), there is still merit to the approach.

I would say that there are very strong arguments that generally, gameplay should be prioritized, and perhaps should be the fundamental element that will ultimately determine the nature of other game elements but I would also say that it can't be considered an absolute rule, and, like in life, we should learn by imitating the best examples, and less by theorizing, or even wholly relying on a single example.

>>12790638
I would have no idea what to cite.

https://patents.google.com/patent/USRE37948E1/en?q=%22Disclosed+in+a+video+game+of+enhanced+realism+in+which+actual+combat+is+closely+simulated%22&assignee=Square+Co.%2c+Ltd..

I really shouldn't have to. If I cite my favorite video game patent, (pic and link related), and draw focus to the language and its implication for games, this should clearly be considered on-topic, as I'm talking about a written work.

>>12790653
>implying MGSV's story is deep or good
I have to say, compared to /v/, /lit/'s bait game is just terrible.

>>12790600
>"The greatest practitioner of Pokemon Go was Hitler"

>>12790712
probably because that's not bait ;)

>>12790600
>Slavoj Žižek
>Pokemon Go
No today, friendo. Žižek is basically just a more convoluted Neil deGrasse Tyson, commenting willy nilly on various pop culture subjects to get exposure, as if that were remotely appropriate considering his background, ultimately saying nothing propounding or interesting. At least Neil is shallow, but comprehensible, (and he would have to be for the idiots he's addressing), but once you remove all the obscure, convoluted, and cluttering verbiage, what's actually there is quite shallow, and probably wrong, (which basically describes Marxism to a T).

>>12790723
Actually saying that makes your bait better, but I'll bite, somewhat. If somebody honestly thinks the story of MGSV is good, or even serviceable for its role in the game, they would have amazingly shitty taste, especially for somebody on /lit/, which is what makes this bait even shittier.

But I'm still convinced it's bait, and just gave a reason why it's such a ridiculous opinion, especially here, it's almost certainly bait, but you are free to convince me otherwise, not that the story of MGSV is good, (which is impossible), but that you aren't baiting, which is a much lower bar, but it's such an idiotic opinion, almost anything that could be said in its favor, no matter how convincing, would be more likely a feigned basis than genuine reasons for belief.

>>12790681
Oh, I agree that it shouldn’t be an absolute rule I just think it’s good rule of thumb. Gameplay to games is like prose to literature. It’s very much the bread and butter of the medium.

I guess the point I’m driving at is that gameplay driven experiences like God Hand, Ninja Gaiden, the Hitman series and even Tetris are far greater showcases of the medium’s artistic merits than something like The Last of Us.

>>12790757
lol cry harder

>>12790600
>The greatest practitioner of Pokémon GO was Adolf Hitler with his anti-semitism. Isn't the figure of the Jew exactly such a Pokémon figure?

>>12790769
>Gameplay to games is like prose to literature.
I don't think it's a fair comparison. Literature is an art form, while a game would be a piece of software with artistic elements, (not to say one way or the other whether games are art).

Even for, say, a novel, prose is a the means of convening meaning in this piece of literature. Frankly, it would be more comparable to graphics in gameplay, which I would never say should be the focus. However, I think there are parallels, in that it could not be said definitely that in literature, any element should be prioritized over the rest. Though in my opinion, if gameplay should be generally, if not categorically prioritized, in games, in literature, plot should be prioritized in fiction, and clarity should be prioritized in non-fiction.
>>12790775
Nah.

>>12790600
Is there a version with subtitles? It's so hard to follow him.

>>12790812
Literature is just an essay with artistic elements

>>12790600
The obnoxious aspect of these sort analysis is that the ultimate result is to rationalize (obscure), saying something as outlandish and ridiculous as "The greatest practitioner of Pokémon GO was Adolf Hitler" That's it. That's the whole fucking point of the video. Any profundity or intelligence in the analysis is purely accidental or subservient to justifying the equivalent of clickbait in statements.

Say what you want about Peterson, such as that he often speaks needlessly obscurely, and in a manner that's disproportionate to the profundity of his ideas, (though he has improved on this), but he never, ever tortures truth to reach such an absurd, low, and pandering objective. The world might need many things right now intellectually, but statements like "The greatest practitioner of Pokémon GO was Adolf Hitler" and its rationalization is not one of them. It's a disgrace, and indicates more strongly than I have ever seen in almost any intellectual that the opinion proceeds from a charlatan.

>>12790834
>such as that he often speaks needlessly obscurely,

no, it's that he often has no idea what the fuck he's talking about.

>>12790842
Again, that might be another problem of Peterson's, which I allowed could be said, but the absolute worst of Peterson isn't as bad as that video. The worst of Peterson proceeds from a desire of simplification to suit his worldview, while the worst of Žižek is making intellectual clickbait, which is far more objectionable.

Furthermore, if "knowing" what one is talking about is accomplished, only with the effect of deliberately torturing truth to get to absurd conclusions like Žižek's statement, the results are not only more ridiculous, but he has less of an excuse than Peterson has, and is more morally culpable.

This really isn't an instance of defending my favorite intellectual, but just noting the comparisons between the two, and showing how the worst of one is far lower than the worse of another.

I really see nothing of merit in Žižek, and once Chomsky's gone, there goes the intellectual worth of the left.

>>12790834
You're right. His analysis started off interesting (Kant's three types of judgment, and attempting to tie it in to the recurrence that the player experiences in a digitally instanced depiction of a living world), but he immediately went off the rails after that indicating what you said, that he was basically just trying to organize a line towards a petty political statement.

>>12790864
i don't know, presenting yourself as an intellectual and then making a career around saying ignorant nonsense sounds pretty bad.

>>12789480
You might like Crypt of the NecroDancer. It's a roguelike rhythm game. The roguelike part provides procedural generation, so there's no memorizing levels, and action/combat. The rhythm part forces you to keep a fast-pace, moving to the beat.

>>12790867
>petty political statement.
It's not even that. The average SJW says less nonsensical shit, or even when it's equally ridiculous, at least proceeds from ignorance, which can be pardonable in many cases, especially considering the echo chambers developed in various communities, but somebody who should know better like Žižek knows exactly what he's doing. "Trump is a nazi," and "Hillary belongs in prison" are petty political statements. "The greatest practitioner of Pokémon GO was Adolf Hitler" is the intellectual equivalent of "LOL so random XD," only you give the impression of being serious, and are somehow seen as respectable in some people's eyes.

I'm not sure what the strongest comparison would be. If one wants to find bizarre and ridiculous Marxist interpretations, (the first that comes to mind is Shaw's idiotic interpretation of Wagner's Ring Cycle as a socialist critique of industrial society, though Shaw was not a Marxist), one can find them, and even if Žižek were, in a partially innocent manner, actually infected with this specious and intellectually worthless manner of interpretation, he knows damn well that he's saying outlandish nonsense sandwhiched between pretentious, if often sagacious rationalizations.

I think the significance of clickbait is often overstated, and that even if it's essential to most articles online, I don't think a clickbait title is the primary purpose of most articles, or that they are written for this purpose. In Žižek's case, however, I'm not convinced he would have bothered to create this analysis unless he could have inserted that grotesque line of pure bullshit, probably just for attention, (or probably a worse motive, like the desire to produce a nihilist mockery of analysis), meaning he's a worse as an intellectual than clickbait authors are journalists.

>>12790876
And knowing what you're talking about and deliberately distorting it in a farcical, but ostensibly serious manner is worse.

>>12790899
Thanks for the recommendation.

>>12790945
>And knowing what you're talking about and deliberately distorting it in a farcical, but ostensibly serious manner is worse.
perhaps but we're just splitting hairs now.

In any case i just thank god that the debate is happening at all, gunna be incredible.

>>12790951
>the debate is happening at all, gunna be incredible.
I don't care about it, and I have no intention of watching it. I rarely like to see Peterson speak, and Žižek, not at all.

>>12790961
but the memes anon

>>12788997
Life must feel empty making nonsense videos for children.

>>12790600
>Žižek
If I were a Marxist, and somehow held Marx and his disciples in high regard, I would have a very, very low opinion of the state of Marxist intellectualism today, especially since this is apparently the most prominent Marxist intellectual.

>>12789480
There is literally a number version of n-back. Why not just play that?

>>12788997

What about the fucking global warming argument.

"Westerners use far more energy than other peoples in other nations therefore they should limit how many children they have."

"OH, BY THE WAY, WE NEED MILLIONS OF FUCKING SHITSKINS."

Do they not use energy? Do they not use oil products or contribute to green house gases? Did niggers and arabs and spics somehow become immune from contributing to climate change in our nations? Fancy that.

That was such a huge issue from 1998 and the 2000's. "GLOBAL WARMING. WE IN THE WEST USE TOO MUCH."

However!! Sorry Westerners, you totally need to allow millions of invaders to come to your country. Then they also have to live on your welfare. Then they also get to commit crimes against your people. Oh right, and the planet. We need a carbon tax! (Which is really just fucking wealth distribution in disguise).

>>12791117
>refugees and migrants are invaders

lol okay

>>12791027
I should have clarified, (which is a problem I had the first time I posted this, but forgot to add an addendum to have it come up of them), which is that the point of that description was to give a good idea of what would be a constantly demanding game, not that a I want a game that meets this description, as it's too dry for me.

If it gave a false impression, especially since I was so detailed, I apologize, but to give an impression of what I wanted, that the best method that occurred to me.

I have struggled hard to conceive of how these principles could apply to games I've enjoyed in the last, but as hard as I might, the only solutions that have occurred to me was either to make a sort of n-back minigame that would be running at all times, and would ultimately be detached from the game, or to have multiple versions of the same game running simultaneously, and n-back essentially would be applied to input, in which, if you were playing a game, and the difficulty was 4-back, there would be four different versions of the game running essentially, with slight differences, and every input would apply to the fourth instance, as well change the instance. This latter method is rather uninventive, and would largely only work with games that are largely controlled with single inputs, (like traditional JRPGS).

The issue, I have determined, is that, unlike for n-back, games rarely demand absolute precision when they present a challenge to the short-term memory, and challenges that require precision don't involve the short-term memory. In this way, video games are less flexible in how they tests players compared to the tasks that compose most n-back games, or even a game like chess, in the latter case, it would not be difficult at all to develop a n-back challenge based on it, (considering that numerous grand masters have the ability to play multiple games simultaneously without looking at the boards, which is much more demanding than an n-back challenge).

However, that required skill and intuitive understanding of the game are immense to be able to play chess like this offsets this flexibility, and the advantage of popular video games over traditional games like chess is the easy by which they may intuitively grasped, as they do not simultaneously pose a large short-term memory load and a demand of precision.

>>12790993
Good for you

>>12791145
>as they do not simultaneously pose a large short-term memory load and a demand of precision
I should conclude that this is why n-back games consist of very simple tasks which do have the flexibility of being quickly solved, where the difficulty is retaining the answer, but with absolute precision, along with having constant difficulty.

There are games that actually require multitasking, but even then, the individual actions have to be simplified compared to other games where there object of control is more individual and focused. Comparing the stupidest hack-and-slash game to the most complex RTS shows the former provides far more options in terms of attack choice and movement, compared to what an RTS offered players for individual units. This is necessary, not only for the pace of the game, but only so much load can be played on a human's short-term memory in terms of memorizing scenarios.

However, if there were a game that complex actions were reduced to button prompts based on a memorizeable scenarios, or a series of button prompts, this might be simple enough in which inputs could be memorized, and made into an n-back game. This would solve the issue with most tasks in games involving constant input to the player and demand very precise input that by their very nature require immediate and constant input, (like a shooter), and are thus unsuitable to n-back.
>>12791194
Thanks.

Actual KINO coming thru
You can't even compete

>>12789448
Factorio might be up your alley, or other even more autistic simulation games.
AA and AAA games can be good (even recent ones) but they definitely aren't made to be "stimulating". They are completely brainless entertainment and rarely pretend to be anything else. For comparison, they are better (or not as bad) than watching sports and TV shows which is still the standard normie way to spend brainless time. Shitposting on this website is superior though.

>>12789538
MGSV has some of the best controls of any video game in general, but controls aren't the only thing in gameplay. Level design in particular is abysmal.

killer7 is the best story-driven game ever made

>>12788997
>it took fans years to figure out what was going on here
lol no

>>12791133
They are. Invasion means entering a space with an intrusive effect changing the situation of the system. It isn't limited to organized armed forces.

>>12791589
>intrusive

Just because they have different beliefs from you doesn't mean they're intruding lol.

>b-b-bbbut im white and noone will fuck me because immigrants are hard while mommy has to cook tendies for me every day it's not faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaair
Western civilization has run its course :)

>Not a single mention of Bloodborne or Dark Souls

Plebs all over the shop.

>>12788997
>>video games can never surpass litera-

yea yea you found a way to bring your shitty manlet fuck all mongrel /v/ friends to lit by slightly side stepping the off topic rule... yea fucking right get rid off this shit thread

If you continue to condone these post atleast fucking report guys jesus

also if you play video games past the age of 23 your a manchild,brainlet,brainless cuck consumer manlet

>>12791294
>Level design in particular is abysmal.
no it isn't and it's the first MGS that isn't just a guided sequence of linear hallways

>>12789011
>The Dark Tower or The Wire
Hahaha

>>12789480
just play multiplayers competitive games. all single player games have trash gameplay and poor writing
starcraft, dota, league of legends, games like that

>>12788997
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CT1DKC_OjME
this silences the kojimafag

Video games are in essence simulations of (a) reality, and you are the most important person there is.
Books don't stroke your ego in essence, neither do movies (unless you are a narcissist and self-insert).
There cannot be a video game, without a player. Video games require you to self-insert yourself into the reality. It's the most egotistical form of modern entertainment, no wonder video games get more and more traction with the population.
They bridge the gap of currently unnatainable reality, you will never be post-apocalyptic samurai you play as in Kenshi, you will never be the lonesome knight you are in Dark Souls.
You aren't fantastical, mystical, heroic, etc. You are of mundane matter, with a spark of god, yet most people will never manage to light a bonfire with the divine flame inside of them (using divine loosely here).
Video games try to create an alternate reality with you as the most important figure of them all, without you the reality cannot function.
Paintings need a perceiver, books need a reader, video games require an actor, that actor being you.
When I play video games, I get the urge to stop and actually do the things I do inside the simulated reality myself. Because it strokes my ego, because it makes me believe I can be the main character. And it pisses me off because I live a relatively mundane life and there is no practical, safe escape. Except vidya.
I don't know what the fuck my point is, to hell with video games I guess.

>>12789193
Damn, I want him to fuck me so bad.

>>12788997
>video games
AHEM

it's called Interactive Fiction

In the first Decade of this century it was all right to have this debate centered around Kojima.

But for this decade, it's Yoko Taro.

Nier: Automata is the high-modernist masterpiece that should have come before Kojima's postmodernist MGS2. It paved the way for a video game that is art not because of its story or because it CONTAINED art, but because the act of playing created meaning and beauty.

Play Nier: Automata for yourself, tell me what you think

>>12792011
I totally agree with you, the intrinsic idea exposed is brilliant, the possible options in the development of the subject are endless, the clarity of the argument is capital, I have rarely had occasion to read such a pleasant subject, with the right length, with the adequate metric, no frills. Cristiano Ronaldo already said it: The good thing if brief twice good

>>12792033
>anime interactive pornographyp
yawn, I already played it because everyone said "ay ay it so goooood"
Yeah, funny wankers they were. The music has a pass (for a weaboo game). But the rest is insufferable, wanky gameplay, fanfic-tier teenager fantasy story, dull characters whose only appeal is the erotic component. That's a yawnvote from me. Period.

>>12792074
> wahh i wasn't entertained enough to try and understand the underlying themes and messages

Addendum: people with the requisite intelligence play Nier: Automata and tell me what you thought.

>>12789420

Vampire The Masquerade: Bloodlines and Deus Ex (original and Human Revolution) come immediately to mind as games with excellent narrative that are also reasonably approachable

>>12792087
>ahhh blood everywhere hmm
>ay ay what does it mean to be human. *claps at the screen*
>do androids have emotions? Deep as my wonderment
>humanity is dead. I KNOW THAT REFERENCE
That's gonna be a yikes from the intelligent people.