/lit/ - Literature

He lived in a society

The rational egoism and nihilism of his day

Autism

>>12719090
He was "acutely conscious" and spiteful

>>12719090
Deep psychological trauma from losing his parents at a young age.

>>12719090
He needed to get laid more often, unironically.

Why in the living fuck no one reading this book is autistic so they can understand the Underground Man is beyond me. Why everyone giving opinion on the book says it's 'disgusting' and 'shocking' and why I'm supposedly the only living person on Earth understanding and relating to the lovable, autistic Man.

Being intellectualy superior and inferior at the same time. He wasnt the opposite of what he says but never acts on it because if he'd act on it, his whole worldview would shatter

>>12719181
I think the lack of getting laid is much more recent. Incels didn't exist back then.

>>12719090
say something to change my mind

>>12719319
They have always existed. But now since there is nothing else to worry about people can mock them because the only thing that matters is what the zeitgeist is and gaining money on Instagram.

Things haven't really changed.

>>12719319
>>12719319
there were always men not getting laid, the difference is that it wasn't a social stigma as much as it is now. your worth as a man is defined by the quantity and the quality of the women you have sex with today

>>12719225
Am I autistic if I 100% understand the Underground Man and Holden? I find it really weird to see Holden described as mentally ill when he seems like a normal guy to me

>>12719374
>>12719376
I disagree but I I wish there were specific studies about it. It seems to me that the whole 'incel' thing is typically modern, not because people started paying attention to how many and which girls a guy has had sex with, but rather because women actually started rejecting men they didn't want to fuck. I hardly ever find something like 'female consent' in literary works prior to the 20th century. Not that it wasn't a thing at all, but I think it was extremely rare. Perhaps I should ask /his/

>>12719090
He just wanted to be good

>>12719623
I suppose it's different in the process but there always have been celibate pen who couldn't hit it.

It's just that nowadays, women have the cake and can eat it with no repercussions. And the fraternal aspect that men had is lost. Even men will fuck you up for some dry pussy or a little clout.
No wonder a lot of us are meandering around and grouping here to talk about how shitty are women and memeing about a fucked up society.

>>12719103
>>12719138
>>12719181

>>12719724
>>12719623


I think a big difference between the incels of old and the modern incels is that there are many modern incels who would not have been so in the past. However, the incels of the past would be incels if they lived today

I think there was something wrong with his liver.

>>12719739
Yes that was sort of my point. We are probably drifting into an age where relationships are basically several men and one woman at the center. Each man filling one particular role. 2 or 3 can fuck her, 1 is buying her shit and bringing her to dates, the rest are just orbiting or being emotional sponges she can nag to.

A lot of incels could probably get a girl, but being introverted and maybe having differents outlets isn't helping. There is a difference about the introverted loner who is at home most of the time and who get an opportunity every aeon and fucks it up and the guy who desesperately chase after women and never manage to get much (George Costanza, Raphael from Houellebecq's book) . The second one is mostly ridiculed and made fun of because he is quite a rare character. The first one is directly vindicated upon and became a strawman.

>>12719559
Nah I do too and I'm not autistic(besides some autistic "rituals" and habits,etc.)

>>12719750
There was no resolution regarding the liver situation

I'm still not convinced that there's always been incels. And what bugs me a lot is that there doesn't seem to be any data about it - all the data available is about men who didn't get married, but this isn't the issue we're talking about.
It seems to me that traditionally every woman would just think, 'I'm a piece of shit and I should be happy if a guy is willing to marry me'. Of course a beautiful girl will have a broader choice of husbands whereas ugly girls wouldn't. But whatever - girls traditionally don't work, which means that they're a burden to their family, and that the family even had to give money so that a guy marries her. Look at what's happening in retarded countries: if you rape a girl, you can get away with it as long as you marry her. Because 'spoiling' her and going against her pleasure isn't a matter in itself - it would be very annoying, though, if that prevented her from getting married (think about the parents saying: what are we gonna do with her now?). So you can do what you want to her, but you have to marry her.
The result is that a lonely girl cannot survive; and as a consequence she should be glad that a man (preferably wealthy enough) is willing to have sex with her, because then he can be made to marry her. Or, more generally: any guy willing to marry her should, a priori, be welcome. I don't think pleasure has a part to play here.
What created incels is several changes in social structures. The fact that women work. The fact that they're fully recognized as human beings with their own interests. The fact that they don't have to obey their parents.
Before all of this happened, we had... we had what can be seen in several works of fiction - see Edith Stoner, or Effi Briest (very nice passage at the beginning, she doesn't feel love or desire but it's just obvious for her that marrying him would be a good move - not even once is she annoyed at the idea of having sex with him). How did Anna Karenina get married, to begin with? I can't remember exactly but it seemed quite natural. She didn't love her husband, but she loved their kid - which means that she just found it natural to have sex with the guy she married. The fact that women can have specific desire (and lack of desire) doesn't ever come into question.
Now you could still say that incels have always existed, being the poorest of men (in terms of actual wealth). But even then, I think it was always a good move for a poor girl's family to get rid of the girl herself, since the guy would have to take care of her and provide her with a decent living etc.
Nowadays women are not a burden anymore, because of several social changes, and the result is that they will not have sex unless they actually want it. It has become an issue for men who are neither charming nor rich. Being a man isn't enough to get guaranteed sex.

>>12720157
>The Room is mocked because the aunt brought up her cancer, which had nothing to do with the plot and was never mentioned again.
>Notes from Underground is praised because the protagonist mentioned his liver ailment, which had nothing to do with the plot and was never mentioned again.
Explain yourselves /lit/.

>>12720356
But the 'plot' doesn't progress past the point where his liver hurts, everything's either ranting outside of time or flashbacks.
Also the point of his liver hurting and him not doing anything about it because he resents himself too much is literally explained on that page

he lurked r9k too long

>>12719162
If I have to read "spiteful" one more time i'm going to puke.
>"yeah I fucking ruined their day, wanna know why? spite, that's why"

>>12720279
>How did Anna Karenina get married, to begin with? I can't remember exactly but it seemed quite natural.
She was sold into marriage by her bitch of an aunt to a guy twice as old as she was who was only using her as a social crutch to further his career.
Your post fails because if that were true then we should see a shift from "femcels" to incels as power shifts from men to women. Instead women have always had more likelihood of ending up paired off with a guy, while men have been more prone to bachelorhood. Also femcels are on the rise just as incels are.
The rest of your post betrays a lack of understanding about the pre-feminist world, go read some more books fren.

>>12720279
>What created incels is several changes in social structures. The fact that women work. The fact that they're fully recognized as human beings with their own interests. The fact that they don't have to obey their parents.

Try
>welfare
>alimony/palimony
>child support
>insurance-based male-to-female wealth transfer
>gender quotas leading to "make work" jobs

The fact is that much of the western world is structured around satisfying women's material needs. Why marry a man when the government is a better provider?

>>12719090
social anxiety

>>12719090
He was too obsessed with himself.

Not self-love or even self-hate, just self-obsession, which was the reason he could never get over any of his hangups. He clung to them.

>>12719090
Left wing people aren't human. Once you understand them, you realize that their only purpose is to be exploited.

If you can bust up a leftist's lips, you should. If you can rob one, you should. It's a matter of principle.

>>12720590
What's your basis for that, that they don't recognize property rights or what?

>>12720590
Absolutely based. I knock out drunk bugmen in my college town when they leave dive bars and I hope others do as well

>>12720604
I don't need a basis to rob or con people who murder their own children.

>>12720496
>bachelorhood
perhaps, but this doesn't mean being an incel. The whole issue is that celibacy, bachelorhood, being single, does not necessarily mean being an incel. Most single women have casual sex (and a significant part of male singles too). As a consequence, all the historical data about people who remain single have hardly any relevance when it comes to 'incels'.
>>12720535
didn't think about it, but yes, obviously.
Willing to marry a girl used to be a good reason to convince her to have sex; it is not anymore.

>>12720615
Don't forget they have an announced goal of and take steps every day to strip you of money, property, freedom etc. They should be viewed as an opposing army.

>>12719090
He wasn’t alive at a time when he could watch Dr. Jordan Peterson’s inspirational video “Take Aim, Even Badly” on Youtube.

>>12720535
>>12720279
>What created incels is several changes in social structures. The fact that women work. The fact that they're fully recognized as human beings with their own interests. The fact that they don't have to obey their parents.
The only thing that created incel is the internet. They wouldn't exist if women didn't have thousands of men, only a click away

conscious inertia

>>12719181
He literally got laid twice in the novel.

>>12723347
hookers doesn't count

>>12724393
He tried to pay her just to insult. It counts.

>>12720279
Pretty sure I've heard some pop-sci YouTube guys continually say that if you're looking at the genetic composition of humans today they are able to determine that we've had twice as many mothers as fathers, meaning that about top 50 % of men throughout the ages had access to all the women.

Religion and farming changed family structures and the concept of marriage was introduced and flipped the whole thing around where most people got married. Since the 1960s the pill and women's standing in society has changed again and we're back towards a society where the top men get to reproduce.

>>12719559
That's how I felt about Meursalt in The Stranger

>>12720589
This seems to be the best answer. He had to be subservient to the others but in his view that destroyed his self so he did everything possible to make people notice his self but his subservience was inevitable.

> tfw I feel like the Underground Man except for that constant spite because I know resistance is futile and prefer wallowing in self-pity
If anyone has an idea on how to handle that it would be welcome.

>>12720611
What if I look like a bug man but secretly hate niggers?

>>12719090
Past a certain age, a man without a family can be a bad thing. Past a certain age, a man without a social aspect can be disastrous.
He thought he could carry on only relying on his thoughts and self. In his mind this probably was true, as you can see with many hoarders/loners who just spiral deeper and deeper into this pit of ontological darkness, slowly getting used to the ever growing physical manifestation of their broken mind. Social interactions are there to help us build a frame of reference for ourselves, if one detaches themselves from it all, there's nothing to compare to, so like a crab in a boiling pot, one slowly withers away without really acknowledging it.

>>12719090
he was too sane for the world

>>12719090
he was a dumb person, who had spent enough time alone to convince himself he was a smart person.

>>12719090
Frenchfag here.
I read this book, it felt like I wrote it.

I was raised by a single mother with BPD. Everyday of my life was an utter nightmare but I had no idea it was a nightmare. Everyday I was beat up, I pissed my bed I was beat up, I had bad marks I was beat up, I teared a piece of clothe I was beat up, my mom was in a bad mood I was beat up.
Mom would push my head in a pillow so the neighbors couldn't hear my screams and then would beat me with a stick, a belt or an extension cable. She called me names: «trash», «piece of shit», «little shit», etc… My memories from 4 to 12 are nothing but anguish and pain. Then I turned into a domestic slave.

The funny part is that I though it was perfectly normal. It was the duty of moms to beat up little boys. In my mind a kid who wasn't beat up daily was a spoiled brat. Kids with toys were spoiled brat. I quickly learnt that everyone was a dumb spoiled brat but me, I was superior because I was beat up and had good marks.

I became more or less crazy, around 5 I was stealing other kid toys and my mom found my stolen good stash: «HOW DID YOU GOT THAT?! HOW?
-O-other kids gave it to me, I swear mom, I-». Here goes my teeth, lost three of them that day. Never stole anything again. My behavior was erratic and I was often punished at school, in front of the class, humiliated.

And I grew up like that. Fearful, scornful and despising. Any kind of prolonged intimate contact give me diarrhea and it makes me feel so fucking cold I get goosebumps. Really.

When I understood I was mentally ill it was already to late. I literally can't not get angry, I can't drive and I can't fall in love. My body started to fall apart. Even if I try to fake it I know deep down I'm just a big ball of hatred screaming for revenge.

>>12725137
Boohoo become a domestic terrorist or white nationalist and get over it

>>12719090
A better question would be, what's his solution?

>Fyodor Mikhailovich Dostoevsky[a] (/ˌdɒstəˈjɛfski, ˌdʌs-/;[1] Russian: Фёдop Mихaйлoвич Дocтoeвcкий[b], tr. Fyódor Mikháylovich Dostoyévskiy, IPA: [ˈfʲɵdər mʲJˈxajləvʲJtɕ dəstɐˈjɛfskʲJj] (About this soundlisten); 11 November 1821 – 9 February 1881[2][c]), sometimes transliterated Dostoyevsky, was a Russian novelist, short story writer, essayist, journalist and philosopher. His mother died in 1837 when he was in rabbinical college and around the same time, he left school to enter the Nikolayev Military Engineering Institute.

>>12720279
I think you're erroneously thinking all incels dislike/hate women, when it's been the case throughout history that there are always a decent amount of men who are involuntarily celibate due to looks and/or mental issues.

To think it's just a new thing is remarkably stupid. You may as well think life-long virgins are a new thing.

>>12725137
I'm sorry for your loss anon.

>>12726364
Fake news.
>Dostoevsky's parents were part of a multi-ethnic and multi-denominational noble family, its branches including Russian Orthodox Christians, Polish Roman Catholics and Ukrainian Eastern Catholics.
>Jewish characters in Dostoevsky's works have been described as displaying negative stereotypes.[124] In a letter to Arkady Kovner from 1877, a Jew who had accused Dostoevsky of antisemitism, he replied with the following: "I am not an enemy of the Jews at all and never have been. But as you say, its 40-century existence proves that this tribe has exceptional vitality, which would not help, during the course of its history, taking the form of various Status in Statu .... how can they fail to find themselves, even if only partially, at variance with the indigenuous population – the Russian tribe?"[125]

>>12726427
Lol
>this guy

>>12726376
>thinking all incels dislike/hate women
no no
>involuntarily celibate due to looks and/or mental issues
that's what I meant (let's put aside reasons related to religion)

>To think it's just a new thing is remarkably stupid. You may as well think life-long virgins are a new thing.
Actually it may be easier to verify than I thought.
First - find what part of population gets married. These people are not incels, right? Fine. Now I guess the percentage is significantly decreasing - it's obvious during the second part of 20th century at least. There must be some data for the past centuries, dunno exactly. Perhaps it didn't move.
Second - when it comes to people who never get married: what was their typical sex life? Traditionally guys still had sex with prostitutes or low-ranked women. You imply that there were always guys who remained incels due to looks or mental issues - I'd say these guys would still have sex within their shitty social class (you can call it half-rape), or with servants, or with prostitutes. An open and democratic society strongly limits this.
Let's say I'm an ugly peasan of the 18th century - my take is that I'll fuck or marry any ugly girl whose status is similar to mine. Let's say i'm an ugly poor worker nowadays - I'm more prone to remain an incel because there aren't traditional rules or structures or customs that will 'give' me a woman.
I think some people still don't understand how things worked in a traditional society where people were hardly 'individuals'. Individuals are a very recent construct.

>>12725117
This. He wasn't the special snowflake he thought he was

>>12719090
YOU CANNOT CONTROL ME NO MATTER WHAT

It’s a mutation of my brothers keeper. This man has rejected all that binds him.

>>12720356
How do you brainlets even manage to post? Do they have special apps for smarthphones to help you?

It was not about the physical state of his liver. He said he was superstitious, and believed that his ill temperament is caused by liver illness, as it had been believed in previous ages. At the same time, he knew that it was unscientific bullshit,and that any doctor would tell him that. Still, he believed that to have something to hold on, and, being stressed, wondered whether he feels any symptoms or not. It was just to show his twisted restless mind.

>>12720279
> being that oblivious that traditional society works quite differently from modern one

How can you be so fucking uneducated? You worked with your family, you got married more or less forcibly at a certain age, you got your own children, and repeated the cycle. There was almost no option (or even possibility) to mess around and “follow your dreams” like it's done today.

>>12729233
desu I didn't think of this either, I thought he literally had a liver problem but was deliberately ignoring it

>>12729258
>You worked with your family, you got married more or less forcibly at a certain age, you got your own children, and repeated the cycle. There was almost no option (or even possibility) to mess around and “follow your dreams” like it's done today.
which perfectly sums up what you're replying to

>>12719090
He thought the thoughts and actions of others were his responsibility and in his power to control. The stoic antithesis.

>>12720356
>>12720440
>>12729233

The point of the liver is to show that he's dying, just like the protagonist in House of the Dead. Both are completely fucking broken people and by not seeing a doctor even though they're educated is a perfect symbol of this.

>>12725137
God bless you anon

>>12729532
It fucking isn't. There is nonsense about beauty and feelings while a lot of societies have had arranged marriages in which spouses haven't had a word, or even seen each over before wedding. Of course, there were balances in the matchmaking process, and not all of parents forced their decisions on kids, but this idiot just retrofits his narrow modern experience onto something he knows nothing about. He also conveniently projects his narrow-mindedness when discussing how girls were broken in the past, and how they are fixed today (or vice versa), having zero clue that boys' opinions didn't matter just the same. It's like some dumb man reaction to pop feminism that stays on the field of pop feminism.

>>12725117
like Jordan Peterson

>>12725137
Kill your mom dude

>>12719090
Literal autism.

>>12719623
My first thought is Napoleon who hit on some old lady for years and years only to be continuously rejected.