/lit/ - Literature

>>12707119
I'd say so, having read it myself. It's a fine intro to western esotericism from a scholarly/historical point of view, going (iirc) from neoplatonism to Theosophy and suchlike modern currents to some more contemporary examples

>>12707170
Thanks anon, what do you think of pic-related.

>>12707119
Does it have pictures?

>>12707119
Get the Luc Benoist book instead.

>reading about esotericism

>>12708695
Looks good, picking it up.

The only Western mysticism is Christianity
Everything else is a syncretic mess

>>12709997
all western mysticism these books talk about is based around Christianity, you absolute brainlet
that's why it's called western, it's like a return to the more personal and alive religion of early church fathers, pre-Vatican Christianity

>>12710034
>gnosticism is based around christianity

Please stop posting

>>12709732
>reading

>>12707119
Yeah it's pretty good, but I recommend Brian Copenhaver's Magic in Western Culture. Copenhaver wrote the best English translation of the Corpus Hermetica and truly understands occult philosophy.

>>12709997
Oof.

>>12710034
Your posts are just embarrassing.

>>12710034
This is wrong from both a Christian and Non-Christian standpoint lmao

>>12710044
>thinking it isn't
>scared of the dualism boogeyman

the cookie-cutter wikipedia/sunday mass priest definition is dead, and should be discarded as it doesn't properly describe the many belief system that existed throughout history
this is why you'll never know gnosis

>>12710083
>>12710099
just 1 (one) example would be enough
if it's Western, it's Christian

>>12710109
Do you think actually believe that no one lived in Europe or the Near East before 0CE? Really?

>>12710137
too bad those spiritual barbarians don't fall under the term "Western Esotericism"

>>12710150
So Augustine's Neoplatonist education, which he later based his Christian theology on, doesn't count as Western esotericism?

>>12710174
Plotinus wasn't an esoteric, but a philosopher. Augustine similarly wasn't a practitioner of Western esotericism. The term itself is a later, scholarly construct which was applied retroactively, it arose mainly from Christian apologetics and "anti-heresy" practices.

In short, Western Esotericism is all that mainstream Christianity and the Enlightenment considers "rejected knowledge". Sure, this is rather nebulous and exists on a spectrum, but there is no other field of study that deals with it, as it's been actively rejected.

>>12710262
This is pendantic to a fault.

>>12710101
>its dead
Lmao

>>12707119
yeah its what i used and i dont regret it

>>12710924
but read the primary texts alongside it of course

>>12710044
>>12710099
but you are at least aware that there is such a thing as "Christian gnosticism" that WAS a pretty big deal in early Christian time period, as well as continued to be a thorn in the side of the Catholic Church, even after they officially got it declared heresy due to their cozying up to various Caesars? (talk about rendering unto Caesar the things that are God's... sheesh!)
don't get me wrong, I'm not even saying that the gnostic version of Christianity is correct, but Christianity, even of the orthodox varieties, have NEVER agreed with each other, but that's typical of pretty much all religions and philosophies. But going and killing people for disagreeing with you strikes me excessively tyrannical and un-Christ-like.
Which means that to use the fact that gnosticism was looked on unfavorably by "majority" Christianity for hundreds and thousands of years, isn't as weighty an argument as you think it sounds.
Oswald Spengler, and Joseph Campbell (to name just two examples) showed that Christianity did not arise in a vacuum, that it inherited many traditions, philosophical beliefs and mythos from earlier religious systems.

>>12707119
why was my reply shadowremoved?? wtf jannies

>>12710299
This is the definition those books are going with and what they are about. Western Esotericism is a field of study, not just esotericism with an adjective tacked on. Sucks to be a layman.

Orpheus and the Roots of Platonism
The Unknown God
The Orphic Poems
The Cloud of Unknowing and Other Works
The Voice of the Eagle

>>12710034
>>12710109
Take a load off your mind with a shotgun, retard.
Western philosophy, and Western esotericism, is mostly rooted in Pythagoras and Plato.

>>12712516
You do know the Greeks had their own polytheistic religion right? Western esotericism does not recognize their gods, only may borrow some of their concepts for their interpretations of Christianity. From Gnosticism, Hermeticism to fucking tarot cards reading and satanism - it's all Christian.

>>12712545
>>12712496
You might like the book: The Origins of Christian Mystical Tradition, From Plato to Denys

>>12712545
>You do know the Greeks had their own polytheistic religion right?
Are you masking your vapid stupidity by asking stupid questions? In Pythagoreanism, Platonism, and in Neoplatonism, there is one all-encompassing Absolute. Deities and pantheons themselves are combined in it.
>it's all Christian.
There's nothing Christian at all about monism you fucking tard.

>>12712557
>There's nothing Christian at all about monism
Paul Tillich would like a word with you. Either way, if you read any of the books in this topic you'd know that the parts of western esotericism you're talking about are grounded hellenization of Christianity, not the other way around.
"but that's not christian it's syncretism and heresy" - yeah right, this rejection is exactly one of the characteristics of western esotericism

>>12712583
>if you read any of the books in this topic
I have, actually, clearly you haven't read fucking shit. So, I'll help you. Here's my library, educate yourself a little my sub 60 IQ brainlet friend.
https://mega.nz/#F!AAUCDYYZ!WRgSslMTIQFknle7iKRBDA

>>12712583
>>12712589
Because the Christian is a retard, I'll actually expand on how widespread the influence of Platonism is.

Pic related is the Analogy of the Divided Line, from Plato's Republic. It goes on to become the basis of a lot of things, from Gnosticism to the Kabbalah.

Here's how the Kabbalah works:
Peshat (Hebrew: פשט lit. "simple"): the direct interpretations of meaning.
Remez (Hebrew: רֶמֶז lit. "hint[s]"): the allegoric meanings (through allusion).
Derash (Hebrew: דְרָשׁ from Heb. darash: "inquire" or "seek"): midrashic (rabbinic) meanings, often with imaginative comparisons with similar words or verses.
Sod (Hebrew: סוֹד lit. "secret" or "mystery"): the inner, esoteric (metaphysical) meanings, expressed in kabbalah.

From the very conception of Hermeticism, to the legends surrounding its growth and development, you'll always see it return to Pythagoras, tying into this path that always goes ties in to Plato.

>>12712589
>click History/Esotericism
>dante, symbolism of the cross
>literally every book is rooted in Christianity

way to prove yourself right, lol

>>12712601
>look at 2 books in a thousand book library
>DURRR IT ALL CWISTAN
Just die.
>>12712599
The One and the Indefinite Dyad are the ultimate ground of everything because the realm of Plato's Forms and the totality of reality derive from their interaction. The whole manifold of sensory phenomena rests in the end on only two factors. Form issues from the One, which is the productive factor; the formless Indefinite Dyad serves as the substrate for the activity of the One. Without such a substrate, the One could produce nothing. All Being rests upon the action of the One upon the Indefinite Dyad. This action sets limits to the formless, gives it Form and particularity, and is therefore also the principle of individuation that brings separate entities into existence. A mixture of both principles underlies all Being

Plato, as the speaker Timaeus, refers to the Demiurge frequently in the Socratic dialogue Timaeus (28a ff.), c. 360 BC. The main character refers to the Demiurge as the entity who "fashioned and shaped" the material world. Timaeus describes the Demiurge as unreservedly benevolent, and so it desires a world as good as possible. The world remains imperfect, however, because the Demiurge created the world out of a chaotic, indeterminate non-being

The first and highest aspect of God is described by Plato as the One (Τὸ Ἕν, "To Hen"), the source, or the Monad. This is the God above the Demiurge, and manifests through the actions of the Demiurge. The Monad emanated the demiurge or Nous (consciousness) from its "indeterminate" vitality due to the monad being so abundant that it overflowed back onto itself, causing self-reflection. This self-reflection of the indeterminate vitality was referred to by Plotinus as the "Demiurge" or creator.

The Demiurge of Neoplatonism is the Nous (mind of God), and is one of the three ordering principles:

Arche ("beginning") – the source of all things,
Logos ("reason/cause") – the underlying order that is hidden beneath appearances,
Harmonia ("harmony") – numerical ratios in mathematics.

>>12712604
>>12712545
I wanted to expand on the concept of what monism is, because the tard I'm arguing with clearly knows nothing about anything and thought Plato was as simple as a polytheist of the Greek pantheon.

Truly retarded, and really telling, considering the first thing anyone ever reads of Plato is the Apology, literally about Socrates being killed for impiety.

>>12712604
Nice

>>12710034
>>12710109
>>12712545

>>12707119
Question for the literati of the soul ITT, how can I use esoteric knowledge to pick up girls? I'm 100% serious.

>>12713628
By improving your virtues ( which radiate beyond your physical body )

>>12713648
>esotericsim
>virtous

lol

>>12707119
Or you may attend Roman Catholic mass and experience first hand

>>12710137
All those positions were absorbed into the church

>>12713628
Do not masturbate for 3 weeks

Your standards will lower simultaneously while testosterone rises, increasing attractiveness

>>12714122
>haha if i say lol about something that totally discredits it
lol

>>12714252
you just discredited yourself idiot, lol

>>12714203
more like experience seemingly limitless boredom

>>12714288
You just discredited yourself by saying he discredited himself lol

>>12714297
What did you expect? Watching someone bite a chicken head off will become boring.

>>12714203
>>12714297
Catholicism is neither esoteric or boring.
There's a certain level of thrill to the danger you run going into one of those churches, are the priests going to rape your ass? Are they going to rip your dickskin off with their teeth? Are they going to burn you like a witch for saying the Earth is round? You never know.

>>12714122
>esoteric knowledge =/= occultic


Yikes

>>12707119
I'm confused. Isn't the painting in the book cover rather a step back from esotericism towards science? ?_?

>>12714388
Is the King of the Gays going to worship your dirty feet with his tongue? Catholics are weird.

>>12714388
Cringe

>>12714203
The Catholic mass is entirely exoteric. Literally the opposite of esoteric.

>>12714414
>unironically goes on 4chan LARPing as a catholic
>says others are cringe
LAL

>>12714416
It is the most authentic esoteric living performance in existence, though I would agree with the previous comment that Vatican II diminished the substance.

>>12714455
>Vatican II diminished the substance.
The Vatican was fucking garbage way before that my mutilated friend.

>>12714416
Going to mass is almost entirely esoteric, you do not go to mass for aesthetical reasons, you don't go to look like a christian, you attend mass because of the Eucharist which is esoteric in nature.

>>12714487
>calls Catholcism garbage
>has obviously no desire for spiritual things

And we are supposed to take you serious why?

>>12714495
You don't know what esotericism is, Timmy.

>>12714455
>>12714495
>The most prominent and public ritual of a global mainstream religion whose meaning is taught to small children is esoteric
Uh, ok then.

>>12714509
>if you don't submit to the authority of a pedophile you aren't spiritual

>>12714519
Esotericism is not the same thing as esoteric
Esoteric is not the same thing as occultic


>>12714521
Yup. Do you think all of the Lay know all of the naunces and mystical aspects of the Eucharist?

>>12714525
>thinking we support the pope on all of his action

The Pope can go to hell and it wont affect my Faith, just as Judas going to hell didn't ruin the Faith of the other apostles.

>>12714542
>Esotericism is not the same thing as esoteric
Read the OP again you illiterate fucking tard. Holy shit, get the fuck out. You're the dumbest person on 4chan right now, congrats, you subhuman piece of garbage

>>12714521
Roman Catholicism is not mainstream.

>>12714560
Nice autism freak out
But the conversation that is happening now is not the same one as in OP.

>>12714552
>Failing this hard at his own religion
Embarrassing
https://www.catholic.com/tract/the-authority-of-the-pope-part-i
>>12714565
>Roman Catholicism is not mainstream.

>>12714565
Yes it is. It is very very mainstream.

>>12714572
You responded to OPs post you fucking sperg.
But if you want to change the discussion to just how stupid you are we can.

Why do christards ruin every thread with their stupidity

>>12714576
>Roman Catholicism is not mainstream
He's half right. It's all South Americans and boomers looking to network.

>>12714576
Yikes,
the authority of the Pope on doctrinal issues can only happen in certain instances. Also, the actions of the pope do not represent the Faith of the lay.

>>12714588
Because their religion has failed so hard that they have to resort to proselytizing on 4chan

>>12714487
He believes Catholics circumcise. What are you doing?

>>12714585
Quote me where I did, because I never did.

>>12714590
Christianity is the largest religion in the world
The Roman Catholic church is the largest sect of Christianity
You're both full retarded

>>12714599
I'm fucking with him because he's obviously an identityless Amerimutt.

>>12714590
South Americans aren't Roman Catholic most of them don't even know what they are worshipping.

>>12714565
>Catholicism is not mainstream
Catholicism literally MEANS mainstream

>>12714542
Whether or the Lay understand the full nuance of the Eucharist is irrelevant to whether or not it is esoteric. The fact that it is open to the Lay makes it not esoteric. It's a ritual designed for the Church in it's entirety, not a select few.

>>12714603
See,
>>12714203
Kill yourself/

>>12714633
Can every one perform the act of the Eucharist anon?

>>12714610
Having a large quantity of individuals does not determine the esoteric quality of the practice of the mass.

>>12714636
Wasn't me but nice try big boy.

>>12714632
OH WOW WORDS MEANING ARE STATIC

You guys are low brow, conflating Roman Catholic with American evangelical already nullified the fallacious position.

>>12714653
At least you acknowledge you're such a stupid child that it would be embarrassing to acknowledge you're wrong and dumb.
>>12714644
1. We were discussing how mainstream Catholicism is, you idiot.
2. Catholic mass is not esoteric.

>>12714596
>All Christians of the 21st century will be mystics
>Failure

>>12714690
>christians admit their religion is now worse than gnosticism
>not a failure
Lel

>>12714641
Any member of the Church can participate in it. Fucking read Webster's definition of "esoteric" you retard.

>>12714644
It literally does.

>>12714679
It is not mainstream it is administered by a small cadre of educated elite bishops, by definition esoteric.

Laity don't even understand the language.

>>12714751
Ah, okay, you're just trolling.

>>12714728
"Any member of the church",

A. Has been indoctrinated procedurally not general public

B.a small fraction of the population whole

>>12714765
>being a manager of a business is esotericism

>>12714762
This guy