/lit/ - Literature

>>12703056
Shakespeare.

>>12703056
The students.

>>12703056
Kids are forced to read, rather than challenged to do so.

>>12703056
99% of the students are ineducable
95% of the teachers are themselves ineducable

>>12703062
It's more that 90% of teachers don't understand Shakespeare themselves and the kids can tell

Because it's not taught like it was for this guy

>>12703056
They try to look for meanings that arent there. Very annoying and pretentious

>>12703062

Shakespeare would be great with a good teacher and a small class full of students with similar capacities. Shakespeare becomes boring when the teacher is forced to slow and explain everything for the benefit of the laggards.

>Every single book has an anti-racism angle

It's too much

>>12703056
I am speaking with American schools in mind.

The majority of kids will always hate whatever is assigned to them, as they will hate any subject they study in school, simply because they have developed an oppositional defiance in their psyche which makes them unwilling to do anything that they have been told to, even if they might enjoy the book or the action might be in their best interest.

Further, your perspective is skewed because you visit this place. The majority of people in general do not read for fun. Reading is the opposite of fun for them.

Thirdly, people who become teachers, bar an extremely small minority, are not good readers. Good readers go on to do better things. Teachers do not understand what they are teaching, and they likely dislike doing it. This shows.

>>12703056
Capitalism

Classroom size

>>12703172
fuck off

>>12703172
>state-enforced mass education is capitalism
Can you just ONCE NOT BE RETARDED

>>12703056
Other students are tards who should be learning how to shovel

>>12703179
To devil’s advocate a bit, jow could it be anything else? The school system exists for the benefit of the capitalistic system, in order to create workers?

>>12703056
HS Teacher here
This >>12703184

>>12703179
-> >>12703192
Can you open your fucking eyes for once?

>>12703202
You shouldn’t be teaching.

>>12703192
You know what would be way better at creating workers? training children to be workers

>>12703056
I think they should focus on teaching kids how to write properly.

>>12703212
I'm a teacher, and I can say with absolute certainty a decent amount of the kids I see are fucked beyond repair because of garbage families.
And I'm not even in burgerland.

>>12703212
You shouldn't be posting

>>12703056
It's obligatory

>>12703114
That already exists. At least in the UK, children are divided into level of ability. Shakespeare is bad to teach to teenagers because most of them don't read on their own accord and when you introduce them to something as arcane and archaic as Shakespeare, they presume that all literature is like that, and they get put off. This is fine if you just want them to achieve a grade but if your aim is to get them interested in reading, you should probably stick with something more accessible.

>>12703216
There is a labor surplus since the 70s and now it’s just a great big who cares. In education the public schools are being defunded so for profit schools can replace them. But the poor kids are given the cheap shit schools to fail at. DUH

>>12703086
That sounds utterly great.

>>12703056

Teaching "Literature", imho. What could that even mean?
We inherited this notion that literature in general ought to play a role in liberal education. That is perfectly right, but why should it be taught as a seperate subject? What are the contours of said subject - Literary theory? The basics of elocution and style? Skimming through books and expressing muh feelings over them?
The national Classics, like the Graeco-Roman ones, used to serve as foundation for teaching Grammar and Rhetoric, which are definable sets of skills that spring ready for use whenever the need for self-expression in a given language arises. As the premium on those skills diminished, we got this paedagogic mess of a subject called "literature," serving aims that are as unclear to educators as they are to students.
There's no better way to teach grammar and rhetoric (i.e. the language arts) than jumping into solid Classical exampla. This comes with the added bonus of inducting students into a branch of world literature and a shared heritage.

However, these kinds of issues: >>12703172
probably make all of this inevitable by now, so...

>>12703248
Youre missing the point, it never made any fucking sense to keep children learning a bunch of random shit until age 18 if all you cared about was the economy.

Most people barely needed literacy and numeracy for their jobs. Mass education was not a plan concocted by capitalists, it was a bunch of progressive shitheads in the civil service

>>12703235
You’re fucked beyond redemption too I guess.
So much for intellectuals

>>12703272
I’m an anarchist, and I assure you I am not missing any points. Just explaining the current situation

>>12703288
Youre an insufferable dumbass is what you are, it was not 'capitalism' that made various governments create mandatory mass education

>>12703288
Have you ever worked as a school teacher?

>>12703288
>I’m an anarchist
This explains that I guess.

>>12703056
those teenagers look like they're 30

>>12703212
I should be, though. Even though shit's fucked I'm trying to help these kids. If only parents and elementary teachers did the same. Oh well.

>>12703056
The biggest problem is that they’re not taught to have fun with literature before analysing it seriously. I did stuff like The Odyssey, Macbeth and The Bible in primary school, but we engaged with it on a simple fun level. It meant that by the time I got to High School, I was ready for deeper analysis.

>>12703297
The corporate state didn’t want better educated workers? You’re weird. Stop posting.

>>12703341
I’m sorry, but it sounds like you have some kind of bias against certain members of the class, and I was suspicious.
Smaller class sizes, more teachers, and fundin can help, as it’s done in Europe.
No Soc-Dem

>>12703288
>retard tankie thinks teachers can and should just waltz in and wave their magic wand to enlighten students because Deep Down They Just Want To Learn

>>12703118
>I don't like being reminded that my reprehensible ideas are wrong

lol cope

>>12703377
>The Bible in primary school
Jesus when will we nuke this retarded hellhole of a country

>>12703380
The corporate powers wanted apprentices, not having to pay taxes for a massive daycare system you retard. The state is not just an arm of capital

I'm from a spanish speaking country. The first book that I was assigned to read was "La Celestina", a book written in medieval spanish....not the best place to start for a kid.

And as the other anons say above, high schools are designed to create standard workers so literature and critical thinking are disregarded.

>>12703385
>wrong
Really? Do you have any evidence whatsoever that the races are the same?

>>12703397
>The state is not just an arm of capital
Proofs ?

>>12703383
Anarchist. Not tankie.

>>12703397
You know when public schools were invented? Not the 1980s

>>12703444
France had the first mass education efforts in the early 19th century, what is your point

>>12703288
Good lord, just stop existing.

>>12703056
Teachers aren't fascinated enough by the works they present. More often than not, they will focus on the one aspect the book is most famous for - it's language, style, or theme. Rarely will they see the work as a whole. In general, poems are better judged in this aspect since they are shorter and easier to see in full.

Also, I am against the concept of free interpretation. A book cannot be interpreted as "whatever you want it to be", that is just lazy (also from the author's side if that is the actual interpretation, though rarely the case). This gives students the impression that books are worthless until they themselves give them meaning. Since so many high school assignments circle around the reader's impression, the mastery of the author fades into the background.

We must demand and incentivize an analytical approach to dissecting a book; factoring in the linguistics, the time period, the choice of characters, the author's life before and during the writing, summaries of the author's previous and later works, etc in order to form a valid opinion on why the author wrote the book and how he wants it to be interpreted. (Instead of "Crusoe's assumed right to give a name to a human being without his consent shows Defoe's support for the Atlantic slave trade").

This will increase the perceived value of a work of literature by immersing students in its complexity.

>>12703056
Students are assigned to read books they aren't interested in, which makes them lose interest in literature as a whole

Why would a socialist system not make school mandatory to just create a bunch of workers... lmao wtf is going on in leftist brains. School would still be a tool

>>12703056
I would have preferred if we just read the book during classes instead of the expectation to read at home (I had other shit I wanted to do then) only to discuss the text as a class. No one, teachers included, ever said anything of value about a text in my 4 years of high school. I guess I only have myself to blame but if I am being forced to spend 7 hours in a place I'd like to have gained something.

>>12703068
This. There wasn't a single book I was forced to read that I actually enjoyed. Then 3 years after graduating high school I started reading by my own choice and actually enjoyed it.

>>12703272
Mass education and modern schooling was a concept invented by the Prussians. A society with a populous with a general grounding in a little bit of knowledge in everything will produce far more scientists, engineers, chemists, officers, writers, and various other specialized occupations. A educated society is in the best interests of modern capitalists, they can use cheap spic and chink labor for the “dumb” jobs, and need as many people as possible educated to increase GDP at home. Which is why we still have mandated public schooling.

Also you can use it as an excuse to brainwash the kids with the prevailing ideology.

>>12703377
The main virtue of "fun with literature" is that children are made accustomed to reading. Large chunks of text are less of an issue and they experience enough material to get bored of the monotony of your average book, and thus welcome the advancement in the level of their reading, as well as value the uniqueness of more sophisticated works.

I do not see how "fun with literature" would help future deeper analysis though, please elaborate your thoughts

>>12703068
This. For one assignment we could pick a time period out of a list and choose books from it to read. It was the most freedom I had reading for school and it was really cool. I chose Victorian England and Dickens was pretty nice to read.

The teaching material and especially teachers aren´t as challenging as 20 years ago.

The victim curriculum

>muh slavery
>muh trail of tears
>muh holocaust

Repeat until you never want to read another book again

Inflation of good grades and picky parents.

>muh freedom of choice

There should be some but you should read things you would never pick on your own.

>>12703385
If there is ever a racist future, I hope that whatever fascist state is running things puts just as much racist propraganda into schooling as much as liberals put in anti racist propraganda now.

Teachers care more about the message the work is relaying and the cultural significance instead of enjoyment for the student. Most of them use this time to pontificate on their views instead of challenging the student to come up with an interpretation.

>>12703056
Public schools need to be disbanded and the students need to be sent to work in fields and factories

>>12703573
They don’t limit this to history class either, enjoy reading about all the oppressed minorities of the world in literature/language arts too. Why read books written by old racist white men when you can read classics like the boy in the striped pajamas!?

>>12703608

>>12703056
DUDE SCHOOL SUCKS

I remember in 6th-7th grade the books were very enjoyable and the class loved discussing them. Then as time went on I feel the choices became more and more pretentious and tedious

>LMAOing at all the faggots in this thread who think they know all there is to know about teaching and how to do it when their only contact with the vocation is having been edgy teenagers who thought they were smarter than their teacher for 7 years.

>>12703672
>Implying half the population of /lit/ aren’t teachers with years of experience.

>>12703683
/lit/ doesn't even read. How could it teach?

>>12703610
The history of the West is predominantly the oppression of other cultures though.

>>12703192
The school system in communist countries existed to create workers who didn't challenge the status quo too. What's your point?

>>12703549
>elaborate
If you're already in love with storytelling, you're more likely to want to know about the craftsmanship that goes into it.

This is also why I think literature courses should avoid political bias where possible. Literature should be taught as a discipline above all else.

>>12703672
>the vocation

>>12703731
also inventing all of scientific and technological modernity and the greatest art of all time
easy to forget

>>12703731
>oppression
this is your cultural bias talking

>>12703106
analyzing literature is fun and can be a good intellectual exercise regardless if whatever meaning sought was intended by the creator. also don't know if you realize this but all art is inherently pretentious. think of the most beautiful oil painting or song you can think of and think about the resources used to convey it's expression. literally just oil on canvas that tries to showcase suffering or any array of emotion or experience should by any measure be considered pretentious but in many cases it isn't.

>>12703731
Maybe oppressing itself lmao.

>>12703380
>giving schools more money will magically make kids want to learn and unfuck their shitty living situations that make them either unwilling or incapable of learning
retard or leech detected. giving every kid an iPad or doubling the wages of the dumbasses we employ to teach kids are not going to fix the education system.

>>12703056
The problem is that parents don't read stories to their children anymore.

>>12703212

its true tho, children are insurable

>>12703702
that never stopped Americans from becoming teachers

I'm in a creative writing class and my teacher went on length about how you shouldn't try writing a main character that is a different gender, race, sexual preference, sex than your own and that you need to acknowledge your privilege when even thinking about doing so.

I'm so close to revealing my powerlevel to this bitch and going off. But I live in SoCal where everyone is fucking indoctrinated at this point

>>12703056
Capitalist democracy leads to the impoverishment of the education system across the board. They reduce the threshold for success rather than increase it and everyone turns out mediocre as a result.

>>12703385
>racism is bad
Okay I believe you
>no seriously it’s really really bad
Sure I already said I agreed
>you’re not hearing me! It’s bad! Horrible! Evil! Problematic!
Fuck off, nigger!
>RACIST!

>>12703808
How do you stop yourself from screaming in class?

>>12703385
It’s not that anti-racist literature is all bad or should not be read at all, but to have it be the MAIN FOCUS of much of high school level reading is just dull. People need to see the variety that literature can have

>>12703114
No, Shakespeare is pseud shit engulfed in the Emperor's Invisible Robe phenomenon. You would know what that is, if real literature like Hans Christian Anderson was taught in schools.

>>12703807
the USA were a mistake

>>12703610

I just want to read books about interesting, noble characters. I don't give a flying fuck what it's like to be gay and Somalian in Chicago

>>12703808
>tfw if you follow his advice you'll be burned at the stake for only writing hetero white cis males

>>12703385
It's just boring desu. Is race literally the only thing you think about?

>>12703672
Teachers are the intellectual dregs of the country

An I banned?

>>12703846
That actually sounds more interesting than what they actually write about desu

>>12703639
Based Pol Pot sticking it to the intellectuals

>>12703837
Based and continentalpilled

>>12703731
Oppression is necessary and beneficial for culture

>>12703867
Phew, I’m not. They just deleted my thread. Please dont ban me for this comment. I was banned for 80 days last time

>>12703731
Yeah, I wish we never “oppressed” all those other cultures with modern medicine, farming techniques, and other technologies. I feel so bad for all the niggers enslaved by the evil white man, we should have left them in Africa. So many Mexicans are being oppressed by the evil Drumpf Hitlor administration even now, we have to start a Underground Railroad to get them back to Mexico before Trump’s Regime kills them all. The holocaust was the worst crime in all of human history, we need to help all the Jews get back to Israel before the white man starts another holocaust. Africa even now is being neo-colonialy controlled by the satanic west, we need to completely pull out of Africa and leave them alone. Our introduction of food aid and modern tech is basically a way to control that continent, basically modern slavery. I feel bad for all the Muslims in Europe facing Christian Nazi bigotry, we must help them escape persecution by helping them back to safety in the accepting Middle East.

>>12703886
How the fuck did you get banned for 80 days? i only ever got 3

The issue is fundamentally down to the students being poor. Poor people don't get read to by their parents, they're worse at reading, less civilized, less patient. They develop anti-intellectual tendencies. You cannot teach poor people abstractions like literature. Stick to easy, crappy books like Harry Potter or whatever.

Literature, poetry and the humanities should be the domain of the upper classes. The past century has seen a vast experiment in dumbing down philosophy and literature for the masses, causing incalculable damage to civilization.

>>12703906
Right we gave the Africans medicine when we colonized them. That's why they have such nice hospitals in Africa, which everyone knows.

>>12703919
There are nice hospitals in Africa tho. Especially in places where ebil whites lived and built them.

>>12703926
You ever been in one? How do you know they're nice?

>>12703919
I know! UN camps do absolutely nothing but kill small brown children! Stop African Neo Colonialism now!

>>12703937
Yikes. Keep reaching.

>>12703912
Told the mods to prep my wife’s bull

>>12703114
shakespeare wrote his plays for the groundlings old boy, the problem is his plays are being conned by scholars, dissected by pedants, and fed in synthetic and minute and quite distasteful doses to students

>>12703945
Way to not respond, anyway how is this /lit/? Did this start with a book somehow or are you just a /pol/ illiterate?

that its taught within highschools which are stultifying and not inspiring in the least

>>12703913
>Poor people can’t read
I was born into a super poor, dysfunctional family, barely ever was read to, yet I read all the time now.Though I’m white, and not a ghetto nigger, so that might have something to do with it.

>>12703965
Before you start calling people illiterate, maybe read a book on African urban developement and it'll dispel your ignorant notions that everyone on that continent lives in dung huts and relies on witch doctors.

>>12703965
>ex-colonies in Africa reaped quite a few infrastructural benefits from European interference
>BUT YOU HAVENT EVEN BEEN TO KENYA, BRO?!?!?!
I'm not even the guy you were originally replying to

>>12703912
I Posted an image of the hit or miss shadman trap for yous on /int/. Pic related. No nudity but his butt was showing. I still have 8 days left, I’m on 3g now. Banned from all boards.

>>12703988
I Miss The Rains Down In Africa

>>12703207
congratulations on letting someone else argue for you, retard.

>>12703988
Honestly they'd be better off if they did, South Africa is a fucking hellhole

>>12704023
Blacks ruined it, just like with Rhodesia

>>12703056
It isn't.

To be honest I think the big problem is that an appreciation of literature needs to be a decade-long process. An accelerated reader thing where kids can read a few books a year of their choice is probably the best way to go, especially if the list of acceptable books grows with age and gives equally weight to fiction and non-fiction.

Teachers also need to do a much better job of emphasizing cultural literacy and explaining how a working knowledge of the world and high-brow culture can be a huge benefit in education and business.

>>12704023
Yeah, modern chemistry, food aid, and sprawling White/Asian built cities are a bad combination for a primitive tribal people like the nigger. Huge sprawling populations, dependent wholly on foreign economies and charity, pushed into urban jungles that they don’t understand, and given modern guns and drugs. Look at places like Liberia for the end result.

>>12704043
'blacks ruined it' is basically Africa tl;dr

>>12704043
Why did you name your mother’s pussy after a dissolved African state?

>>12704015
bless

>>12704052
>>12704043
WOOOOOOAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Did nigga feral.

Shit son, grab the tide pods

Future ESL teacher here. I think the best way to get children interested in literature is to give them a choice on
what to read from a curated pool of canonical works and perhaps to allow them to bring in new books if there is any merit to them. Also the texts should be made more accessible in order to facilitate understanding and appreciation for literary works. There should also be somewhat contemporary texts that connect to the youth of today so they can see the merit of literature and reading themselves.

Too many professors having sexual relations with their students.

>>12704056
I think you mean DSL teacher. Now bring those lips over here qt

>>12704043
and? every civilisation ruins their own country

>>12703118
This wasn't my experience at all. Everything we were assigned in high school was Hemingway, Hawthorne, Orwell, and contemporary YA

my female english teacher wanted us to read jayne eyre and wuthering heights. i didn't read them, not because i saw through her bullshit feminism but because all i wanted to do was play cod4

>>12704067
fuck it's jane isn't it

>>12704052
Cringe

>>12703086
>W&P over two semesters
lmao scrubs, we read Anna K, C&P, Madame Bovary and Le Père Goriot in one

>>12703380
>as it’s done in Europe
This is how I know you're spouting bullshit. In Europe there's 50 different states, each with their own educational system, and putting them all under the same umbrella of utopistic bullshit is something only an American leftist could do.

>>12704008
lol reported for ban evasion

>>12703056
Imagine how good she would feel and smell haha

>>12704282
N, no. It’s been 72 days. I was only kidding, hahah! Get it? Hahah. I got you!

>>12703086
>dess o duh dubehvileles!
>BAW AN BEACE
do Americans really think either of these are impressive?

>>12703608
>I prefer my population lazy and dumb as rocks

>>12704359
You mean Americans?

>>12704344
Did you ever read a 1,000 page novel in a high school class?

>>12704376
Americans are dumb as rocks but they're not lazy. Americans work far longer hours than any European country.

>>12704376
If you live in an urban setting where there's internet cables running throughout it, you're effectively a cultural American. So you should think about what you mean when you say stuff like that.

>>12704387
sitting at desks looking at facebook
its true though the spaniards are the real lazy ones

>>12704387
With low productivity and no benefits, kek

>>12703664
Don't worry, bro, plenty of adults these days read young adult lit. You can keep reading 6th grade books forever!

They force you to read meme books like The Shit Shatsby and 1984

>>12704389
>If you live in an urban setting where there's internet cables running throughout it, you're effectively a cultural American
>this is what amerimutts actually believe

>>12704394
Americans don't give a shit about school, but many of them are stringently dedicated to their shitty jobs.
>>12704389
>cultural American
Jesus no. Europeans think they know what the US is like and every one I've met has been drastically wrong about what Americans think and how they live.

>>12703086
Based. I went to college at the university’s he’s talking about

>>12704408
Let’s face it, they have poor schools and learn most of their facts from McDonald’s wrappers and food containers

>>12703808
Write whatever you want and if your teacher complains, say you're vast and contain multitudes, then jazz snap in agreement with yourself.

>>12703288
Fucking hell...

>>12704408
>>12704409
Sorry, but the internet is an American invention, as is its widespread social acceptance. The majority of websites you use are probably American made; this one is too. You don't even realize that your culture is already a part of the American one, and not the other way around, since American culture is the one that has the greater spread across the planet currently. And the fact it is this way proves that Americans aren't as dumb or lazy as you think.

>>12704409
well his point was the europeans (in urban settings with aforementioned internet cables) think the same way as americans

>>12704459
And I say they don't, based on admittedly limited experience. As an American, Brits alone seem like fucking aliens to me, and the ones I've met don't understand jack shit about the US.

>>12704474
>the ones I've met don't understand jack shit about the US
how so

>>12703288
>I’m an anarchist
How embarrasing.

>>12703056
Most of the students are ineducable, and the problem has gotten worse as Diversity has increased.

The quality of teaching below the college level has gotten worse as schoolteaching has become professionalized. At the college level, it has gotten worse via dilution.

>>12704511
that sounds kinda bigoted...

>>12704480
I did exaggerate there, but English people and Europeans in general are very different from Americans. I am personally baffled that English people still take their own monarchy seriously, and the Europeans I've met generally believe a lot of stereotypes about gun ownership, and gold rushes, and "the frontier." Europeans are also pretty clueless when it comes to American identity politics because there is no European equivalent to "Italian-American."

>>12704457
You're not wrong we have all been burgerized more or less
https://youtu.be/Rr8ljRgcJNM

>>12704511
>Most of the students are ineducable
That's just an excuse shitty teachers make. The fact is that they don't understand how to connect with the students. I've had teachers and professors who understood this, and they're extremely rare, but the students, no matter who they are, always come out of those teachers' classes knowing something more than they did before. Meanwhile, teachers who don't know anything besides what their teacher manuals tell them to know for the week remain puzzled as to why their students don't give a flying fuck about their classes and don't pay attention.

The education system is rightly fucked. It's pumping out teachers who don't actually understand what education is. They don't understand that education is not supposed to be about memorization and testing, but about discovering yourself, challenging yourself, and instilling a sense of wonder in the students by way of showing the students what can be done with a higher education... fucking trainers at gyms on average understand what education is better than teachers in public schools, because they at least respect the nourishing factor that challenge has on the learner and the necessity of patience and proper technique in order to overcome obstacles. It's no wonder the "brightest kids" are usually the most autistic ones.

>>12703068
My senior English teacher said fuck that. He just had a giant list of books and we took a vote on which ones to read. Best English class I’ve ever had

>>12704411
>I went to KU
You shouldn’t be proud of that anon

>>12704524
i can tell you as an english person the monarchy is not taken seriously. in fact the general public feel the same was as (i assume) the americans: they like the weddings.

as far as 40 years ago the big english novelists were talking about us losing our culture rapidly to americanism. by that point we already spoke the language of the rest of the english speaking world (the 'do have' construction for example, is an americanism)

>believe a lot of stereotypes about gun ownership
so do a lot of americans though

>>12704582
You shouldn’t be proud of your dick size either, but we all gotta embellish things for future prospects

>>12704560
all education is and always has been bad. schools exist to keep the children out of the parents' hair

>>12704610
>all public education is and always has been bad.
Fixed that 4 u

>>12704594
>so do a lot of Americans though
What I mean is that "guns" and "Trump" are the extent of the typical English person's relationship with American politics. The same way that for Americans the entire English monarchy is just a wedding that happens on TV every once in a while. I couldn't name any of the royals for example, although I think there's a Charles.

>>12704282
Finland

>>12703777
No, ending capitalism will work wonders though.

>>12704618
no private schools as well (possibly especially)

>>12704622
you can't kill things because they don't work v well, what kind of message does that send to the children

>>12704621
>English monarchy is just a wedding that happens on TV every once in a while
this is what it is to the english public as well.

anyway there's no end to the ways in which politics and culture have nothing to do w one another

>>12704631
Fuck private schools. Mentorship is the only way to do proper education. It can make men like Alexander the Great, depending on the quality of the mentor and the student.

>>12703179
Do we live in a capitalist society? If yes then its capitalism.

>>12704621
>What I mean is that "guns" and "Trump" are the extent of the typical English person's relationship with American politics.
Twitter and other internet outlets tend to suggest that's also the relationship of most statesians with statesians politics.

you're stuck in a class with a decent amount of fucking retards; placement in higher-level classes isn't based on how well you actually write, it's about how good you are at menial reading comprehension packets and whatever the fuck. a lot of my teachers pretty much gave the fuck up on trying to actually teach and just assigned art projects which had very little to do with actual literature/writing. plus you're taught to inflate your writing with meaningless garbage to meet a word count, etc.

>>12704674
yesterday i looked at a hedge is that capitalism?

>>12704661
Are you drinking?

>>12704670
well alexander the great wasn't remembered for being particularly clever was he? he cut the gordian knot. more and more i think autodidactism is the only way

>>12704622
>ending capitalism will work wonders though.
taking a trick from the Art of the Deal huh?

>>12704711
If the means of production are privately owned, and that hedge is owned by someone as private property, then yes that is capitalism.

>>12704719
You’re obviously waiting for it

>>12704704
For some, especially loud people on Twitter. Culture is made up of so many little things its hard to summarize. Most Europeans don't know anything about the cultural impact of race and ethnicity in the states, nor do they understand the drug war, or the general drug culture of the US. Europeans think Americans care about cowboy movies and sitcoms more than they actually do. I'm not complaining about Europeans, they're just not "culturally American."
People from different parts of the States are also palpably different from each other. Moving from the Midwest to the East Coast was actually a pretty big culture shock for me, and I do not fit in at all in the South.

>>12704731
well the queen owns all the land

>>12704748
The queen is dead man haven't you got the memo.

>>12704723
>well alexander the great wasn't remembered for being particularly clever was he?
Yeah man, he was totally a braindead moron. Not like he almost united the entire known world at the time in his 20s or anything.

>>12704760
long live the king

>>12704515
Yeah but it's almost as if some people are smarter than others, and that selecting a population based on racial quotas rather than performance means you kind of miss out on some of the smarter ones.

>>12704735
>they're just not "culturally American."
No of course not.
I just mean that "europe" is not really a thing culturally.
You say that different parts of the states have different culture. Now imagine the same but with 2500 years of history and different languages.

>>12704762
And not a single word of thanks to Philip II for giving him the most elite army in the world at that time.
What an ungrateful bitch.

>>12704622
>Ending capitalism will magically solve all problems!
Commies are psued af. You realize your ideology is basically cult, right?

>>12704772
Very true. I was entirely arguing with the guy who said the internet made Europeans "culturally American." Certainly an invention like the internet brings a profound influence, but I don't think the countless imported things I use bring me any closer to being "culturally x."

>>12704776
Maybe Philip II should have kicked Persian ass as well as Alexander did then, if he was so sure of himself.

>>12704762
then ruined his own countries and died shamefully with no sons to succeed him. anyway it's no trick to invade an awful lot of countries if all you want is to invade a lot of countries.

>>12704719
yes are you?

>>12703874
yeah, just for the not opressed ones

>>12703874
you don't know that

>>12703288
I'm an anarchist but i'd never say i'm an anarchist. retard

>>12704954
I’m more open about it. How are you?

I don't know what its like now, but in Canada years ago we read a Shakespeare each year, and then a pretty wide variety of stuff you might expect a highschool class to read from the 30s-70s. 1984, Animal Farm, Lord of the Flies, Streetcar Named Desire, Brave New World, Of Mice and Men, Duddy Kravitz, Clockwork Orange, ect.

There was an option to read Handmaidens Tale in gr 12, but that is probably the newest published one. This was more than a decade ago though.
I want to say some Dickens and Austen was also on the table too iirc.

I can't imagine filling the class with press-bait books that have no real merit and were published in the last 5-10 years is helpful for teachers when they have decades of curriculum to lean on from the past instead.

>>12703118
zoomers are literally taking holocaust and racism classes instead of English and history now. I didn't even know what grammar was until I learnt Latin after I graduated

Read Dante, Dosto, Conrad, and Plato my Junior year of HS. Aristotle, Goethe, and Aquinas my senior year

>>12703118
I had a similar experience with highschool. The ideological bent of the teachers and the curriculum was very clear. Meanwhile many individuals lacked basic skills grammar and the ability to structure an essay. In Victoria, Australia the only compolsary subject is English and it has been hijacked to indoctrinate dimwitted fools who take everything teachers say for granted. Whether the ideology pushed is true or false is irrelevant, what matters is getting people up to a minimum standard of competency in English.

>>12704959
Suppression of the working class

>>12705004
>zoomers are literally taking holocaust and racism classes instead of English and history now
I bet this backfires

>>12704282
You do the IB?

>>12705050
You'd bet right, how do you think I ended up here? There's a whole generation of me coming into physical peak during the next ten years

>>12703783
This is an enticing idea, but do you have any source to back that up?

Poetry. Very few people read poetry outside of school, and the way poetry is taught is by analyzing structure, techniques, etc. When your first experience with poetry is identifying rhyme schemes, meter, alliteration, metaphors, etc, poetry just feels like a combination of techniques with no soul. It's like as if you took a music theory course without having ever listened to music before. Kids should get an appreciation of poetry in middle school before they analyze them.

>>12705005
where are you from?

>>12705122
Blackmanistan

>>12704385
It is actually quite common to read more than that in Slav countries.In my Balkan country we read Tolstoy in our third year of highschool and we also read works of Gogol, Dostoevsky, Kafka, Hemingway, Faulkner, and Proust among others on top of classic domestic works.

>>12703056
what the hell are they doing?

>>12704553
>burgerized
Why do Europeans act like minorities and do whatever they can to ideologically deny what America has gifted them, while taking full advance of said gifts?

>>12704282
>In Europe there's 50 different states
top burger post

>>12705206
It's a leftist thing. They pretend to be hip and trendy for supporting the status quo.

>>12705113
Maybe it's because I'm on the spectrum but I literally cannot understand poetry unless it's in terms of its construction. It's just too condensed for me to glean much meaning from it unless I break it down extensively. With a novel or something more long-form the patterns are easier to see.

HIGH SCHOOL SLUTS ARE SO FUCKING HOT

FOR EXTREMELY POWERFUL RAPIST SORCERERS LIKE MYSELF THE PURPLE GLOW OF PRIME TEEN PUSSY IS VISIBLE LIKE AN LSD AURA SURROUNDING A CUTE YOUNG GIRL, EMANATING FROM HER PERT SKIN AND PERFECT BUBBLY JOYFUL BREASTS AND SOFT PERFECT EVERYTHING

I WOULD RATHER EAT A 5/10 HIGH SCHOOL GIRL'S PUSSY THAN FUCK A THOUSAND 10/10 WOMEN OVER THE AGE OF 21

THERE IS NO POINT IN BEING ALIVE IF YOU CANNOT SUCK THE ASS OF A TEENAGE GIRL

>>12703056
>tfw no autistic mcr girlfriend with which to sort squares by size

>>12705266
The girl in OP looks like ass (crusty brown)

>>12705266
>jerks off
>goes back to hating women

>>12703056
I want to bone both of these girls up the pooper

>>12705266
based

>>12705054
non comprede señor

>>12704569
nice, my senior English teacher was a pedophile.

I think the biggest problem is never being taught how to appreciate a book as a work of art. We never read something just because it was good and looking at the techniques the author used that made it so good - from day one it was

>this book has a meaning, to pass this course you need to "get it" and support your realisation with quotes

maybe I just had a shit teacher/school but I was always in the mindset of scanning for a didactic meaning and juicy quotes I could use. didn't help that a lot of the texts we were prescribed had a clear agenda (racism is bad, gender roles are bad), not that I even oppose those things it just felt like a huge circlejerk reinforced by the authority of a writer

Also I'm Australian so about half the texts are meritless works taught just because they're Australian

>>12703056
wth is this picture OP?

>>12703118
I'm not an American, but you're probably talking about To Kill a Mockingbird. what other curriculum mainstays from that perspective are there?

>>12704282
>lmao scrubs
>Implying there is not benefit to slowly devouring such a work over the course of a year

>>12703391
>retard who hasn't read the Bible or much of the Canon

>>12705569
>this book has a meaning, to pass this course you need to "get it" and support your realization with quotes

Yes that was my experience too.

>Also I'm Australian

Ah, no surprise there. Our literature courses are awful shit that are just about indoctrination and do nothing to help people understand literature.

Only book I was assigned in the entirety of High School was Hunger Games. I'm not even joking.

>>12703056
books get tiring when they're all about racism all the time, just generally boring to kids or in an inaccessible language for the average 14-18 year old.

I still have some of the books I was assigned from HS, and its stuff like To Kill a Mockingbird, Ethan Frome, The Scarlet Letter, things that aren't bad per se but absolutely shit to a high schooler. They shouldn't be reading YA or anything, but I don't see what would be hard about like, Murakami.

>>12706002
Roll of Thunder, Hear My Cry; Huckleberry Finn, The Color Purple, some shit by Amy Tan. A lot of books aren't necessarily just about racism, but also experiences of races/racial identity.

>>12703056
the people in this thread and pic related exist

The association of a student's age with what information he is taught is the biggest mistake we're making. Training those minds not to be flexible. Not to seek information, but to wait for it to be presented. It's really fucking people up. The only advancement in content is through advancement in age.

Some perfect egalitarianism, where the only true advancement is getting older and not by improving.

>>12703259
good post

What were you anons assigned in high school?

My incomplete list:
Dante’s Inferno
The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie
Of Mice and Men
Bizzare ayn rand novel where a luddite society takes over and everyone’s name is something like INTERNATIONAL-12I
The Stranger
No exit
Chronicle of a death foretold
Hour of the star
Multiple Ibsen plays
Romeo and Julliete
Julius Caesar
Lord of the flies
Animal farm
1984

>>12706514
+to kill a mockingbird
+raisin in the sun twice

>>12703056
Conducting academic research into education as a field provides a lot of red pills that most people are uncomfortable discussing. Since these things do not get discussed, they also never get solved. It's only going to get worse.

>>12703056
It's very hard to find passionate and intelligent people that want to be teachers.

>>12706514
I didn't go to high school. I was home schooled, so I guess my assigned book was the Bible.

>>12706547
There's a theory (backed up by one study I once read but forget the name of) that as more fields of employment were opened up to women, the result was that fewer capable women went into teaching as a field. This could have affected the level of instruction currently going on.

There are other factors of course. When you look at the decline of education in California, for example, it graphs pretty well to immigration patterns in the past 3-4 decades.

>>12704959

>>12703056
Main problems for students are:
>being forced to read
>being too stupid to understand the material
>being too inexperienced to understand the material
>books being selected for political reasons

Forcing kids to read a book is a surefire way to make them hate it forever.

high school is mandatory

>>12703083
90% of all high school teachers (and many university and college professors also) don't understand what it is they teach.

>>12703056
can someone please provide context for this pic?

>>12703114
Shakespeare is like 85% puns and obscene jokes that don't work anymore due to sound shifts.

>>12703056
it isn't really taught at all

>>12703272
It depends on the country but it's often a issue of state-centered population control. For instance in France it was a way to wrestle control from the Catholic Church while also developing a more competent labor force.

>>12703056
I'm perfectly happy with terribly inept teachers teaching rebellious "fuck books" dunce kids in swathes.
The kids who want to read will do so in their own time and on their own accord.
The dunce kids and teachers get swept up in the sensationalist dialogues and become so dumb as to be easy as hell to step over for others in later life.

If anything I'd prefer it if classes got bigger, teachers were more inept and the reading material was harder to chew through.
It would provide a far more tireless walk into individual greatness for the few that eschew the socialist trollop pushed. If I had it my way school would be optional, let the dunce kids become prole thugs as fast as possible and leave the education to the elite as it always should be.

>>12705146
this, Serbian studies were great

>>12703172
kys tripfag

>>12703068
upvoted

>>12703056
>still no image context
we aren't going to find out are we

>>12705012
t. gay book reading melbournite

>>12703751
>what is China

>>12706541
Such as?

>>12703077
You must fall into that 99%, pulling false numbers out of your ass and all that

>>12703731
you mean how the french opressed nearly all europe back in 1811? or the one when russia oprressed all of eastern europe in 1950?

>>12703288
>tranny tripfag is an anarchist
oh god i am laffing
have a (you) as thanks

>>12706514
I can't really remember for shit, but here's what I DO remember:

Of Mice and Men
The Great Gatsby
Wuthering Heights
Beowulf
Grendel
The Picture of Dorian Gray
The Canterbury Tales
The Catcher in the Rye
Odyssey
Hamlet
Macbeth
Waiting for Godot
The Crucible

>>12703172
Classroom size has little to no impact on education outcomes. Smaller classes need more teachers, which lowers teacher quality (there's only so many great teachers out there).
Education as a whole does very little to actually increase intelligence. Most of what education is for is to classify your abilities so employers can select you for retraining.

>>12703056
Romeo and Juliette
Holes
Of mice and men
Kensuke's Kingdom
Windsinger
The Crucible
Great Expectations
Edexcel GCSE Anthology of poems that contained absolute blinders like half-caste by John Agard. Still a great source of jokes.

Overall i had a totally awful English education separated between reading and analysis of the above and another class, called English language. In which, we would be taught the rhetoric sufficient for writing a convincing letter to the relevant authority about why sending the licencing people to inspect our property would not be necessary. Bong education is a joke.
Our exams and therefore curriculum are dictated by 3rd party private companies, which schools pay for. Thus creating a race to the bottom education system whereby schools pay for the curriculum which will guarantee them the highest student pass rate. So exams and curricula are made to be passable by even the most left-thumbed of students. These companies even go so far as to train teacher in what words/ sentences are exactly needed in order to get marks. Bong education is a joke.
My English studies consisted mostly of rote memorisation of disjointed information strings.
I still don't know the difference between basic shit like a noun, pronoun, adverb ect and i graduated with an A* (highest possible grade) from the (at the time) highest rated school in my area. Bong education is a joke.

>>12703837

You can't be serious

>>12703169
I work in a UK school and this all applies here too.

>>12704560
Thanks for the wishy washy blogpost

>>12707287
Niggers be dumb

>>12707569
Pretty much. You cannot make a dumb kid smart. You can improve their ability slightly but you will never make them "educated" in an idealistic sense.

>>12703288
have you considered admitting to yourself that the last couple years you've spent namefagging on /lit/ were a massive mistake and that you ought to move on with your life? I bet you've thought about it a million times, and the only thing stopping you from leaving is your narcissistic pride. faggot.

>>12707569
Where's this graph from? What sort of students were tested?

>>12703385
Dude, just compare Europe, Asia, and Africa. Those three continents have had their own homogeneous peoples for thousands of years, and only Africans still have trouble growing their own food and creating a stable society. They only survive through other people's help.
Niggers suck lol

>>12703056
Not enough teachers are having sex with their students.

>>12706514
Don't remember most of the books I read but it went something like this:
To Kill a Mockingbird
The Odyssey
The Catcher in the Rye
Romeo and Juliet
Great Expectations
Some book about the Berlin wall
Raymond Carver short stories
Hemingway short stories
A shit ton of poetry, my lit teacher in jr and sr year being a published poet
A Hero of Our Time
Waiting for Godot
The Sailor Who Fell From Grace With the Sea
Dubliners
Labyrinths

>>12708267
http://www.heqco.ca/SiteCollectionDocuments/Formatted_EASI_PAWS%20Summary.pdf
Canadian students from Ontario in all subjects.
Level 3 is not impressive. The simple fact is we've made university mandatory for jobs which should simply not require degrees. If an ever larger portion of the population goes to university then university students begin to resemble the average of that population. It's a gigantic scam.

I remember taking an American literature class in my junior year. For the first half we studied transcendentalists but then the teacher decided that was too boring so he had us read 'Night' by Elie Wiesel. I was pissed not because it was a holocaust book or anything but if you're gonna teach American lit then that's what I expect to fucking study. When I brought it up to him he looked at me like I was an idiot and went off about how Night was "more important" than the curriculum he was supposed to teach. I don't know if that's "what's wrong" with the education system but it definitely rubbed me the wrong way, and all that being said I got the highest final average in that class even though I half assed it. Bullshit.

>>12703056
>tfw no qt high school "emo" gf
I sometimes drive by my old high school and check out some of the qt's walking home or hanging out
Get massive boners

In America, the very best of curriculum and the very worst are each going to be oriented towards troubleshooting and problem solving. American education is not by nature conducive to creativity so much as it is a holding tank for glorified mechanics. What you end up with is a cognitive dissonance wherein everything you read has a key (to some extents true) and if you can find it, you can solve the problem, write the appraisal your teacher wants, and get out with the delusion that you have learned something, when in fact you've spent hours constructing a problem which did not exist just to prove that you can solve it. Rather than learning to enjoy literature, learn how to think laterally about similar works, discover nuances which differentiate one array of thoughts against another, etc. it is instead set up as a game with the unconscious intent to ensnare people with stronger legal minds (law being the more "useful" direction for most).

This extends into the selection of works you're supposed to read, most of it being dry, antiquated, and with cut-and-clear readings anybody can find on the internet. While obviously the ideal for a teacher is to encourage individual thought, it's much easier to encourage students to write to form, in format, and in such a way that they can be useful technical writers in whatever dead-end industry they find themselves in should they be in a position to write at all (as corporate power is concentrated in the persons who get to send words to the most people).

>>12704723
the lesson of the knot story is that when faced with a bullshit menial task with the psychological intention of "bow down and submit your intellect to our wisdom" alex presents solving the knot in such a way as to say "fuck all y'all and your basic bullshit" ya dingus

>>12705278
Based dare I say.

>>12703056
They don't have Culture of Critique as mandatory reading

>>12706002
IB curriculum went full SJW in the 2000s

>>12705266
Redpilled

>>12710221
Too bad it laid the seeds for reactionary thinking in me. When you've been forced to read multiple accounts by feminist Arab authors of the kinds of brutal, terrible customs that exist in Middle Eastern countries, like female genital mutilation and rape as a mechanism for punishment, you will fail to understand the enthusiasm for letting in millions of them into your own countries, even if you are a diehard liberal. Eventually, I realized that it's all bullshit but that's a story for another time.

>>12703179
>not true capitalism

>>12705266
>obviously didnt get laid in HS
highschool girls give toothy blowjobs and are completely useless in the sack (as most people are), the only ones that werent were the batshit ones who were molested and were giving out BJs in middleschool and are busy trying to fuck people who own a car by highschool

>>12710261
>anyone other than commies following the marxist definition of capitalism

>>12704008
based

>>12704008
should have posted a nude of brie larsons ass, you cant be banned for what doesnt exist

>>12703808
Ban this underage zoomer, you useless mods

>>12705122
Georgia, USA

>>12704387
all that hard work and still 50mil on food banks

Love seeing the tripfag trap getting btfo in these threads. Thanks guys.

>>12703118
Or some kind of "accept other cultures" bullshit. All the trashy Native American and Mexican lit we read in school made me racist.

>>12710469
>'be of good heart' cry the dead artists from the living past
and that's why i'm racist :)

>>12710643
I'm saying I didn't care about cultural differences until the school system pointed them out and shoved them down our throat. Instead of learning that stuff from my friends I still have this deep rooted prejudice towards certain groups because the school system taught me that every Mexican lives with their grandma or that every Native is a drum banging hippy.

>>12704408
Every educated liberal I’ve met from every far-flung corner of the world has been culturally, politically, even on the basis of personality, indistinguishable from their American counterparts. Rurals and malcontents probably retain some authentic characteristics, but they’re backwards and dumb lol.
Sick of people pretending we’re not all pigs at the same trough.

>>12707756
Spotted the pseud.

>>12707756
>THE ROBE IS TOTALLY VISIBLE GUYS, I CAN SEE IT I PROMISE!

>>12703118
Yeah, this is part of it.
They just come off as preachy and corny. Kids probably get sick of it.

>>12703056
I wouldn't know, because I dropped out of full time education at the end of elementary school.

In my English Lit class we voted on which texts we were going to read, ending up being Invitation to a Beheading, Brave New World, Waiting for Godot, and a Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court. Had to somehow compare all four in a 1.5 hour exam.

>>12703068
This, it was only after I happened to pick up some books on my own that I started enjoying it. Everything else was for some project, homework, etc.

>>12703288
>anarchist
I support your ideology, but in all honesty why even add a political label to yourself? It's not like anything other than what furthers capitalism will ever be implemented from now on until the end of civilization. We're post revolution, post everything.

>>12703731
That's the story of man

302 replies and no one asked the most important question: wtf is that picture?

>>12703808
Fuck that, if I want to write about cute tomboys experiencing love for the first time and slightly autistic kids who love plants, that is what I will do.

No one in my creative writing or English classes reads. Had one kid today (at third year level) say that he's only read two books, the Bible and something he couldn't recall the title of.

These people become highschool teachers.

>>12704776
Philip was a dickhead, I'm glad Alexander killed him

>>12703056
All the literature I've ever read was Beowulf and King Arthur, both of which I kinda just skimmed over. In the end I've never actually read a book cover to cover. Would've gotten engaged if we read more or read different stuff like poetry.

>>12712223
Beowulf is literally an epic poem.

>>12712223
beowulf is a poem